Worldgorger Dragon Combo -- Still Viable?

[Noah_33]

I have a Vintage tourney this upcoming weekend so I'll post a tourney report a little after on how I did.

[fury]

I have a Vintage tourney this upcoming weekend so I'll post a tourney report a little after on how I did.

Good luck to you ! We will comment your report and your matchups next week

[Noah_33]

...sigh, I didn't end up going to the tournament but there were 2 WGDX decks in the top 8. One of them made finals.

[Tempus]

Oh

Are there any results about the tournament, t8 lists, reports of the other 2 WGDX players in the T8?

[goobafish]

...sigh, I didn't end up going to the tournament but there were 2 WGDX decks in the top 8. One of them made finals.

1 Dragon made top 8. It made it to the quarters. He didn't post a report, and he lost to Drain Tendrils in T4.

[Bugman]

With a sideboard like this:

4 Oath of Druids
4 Bogarden Hellkite
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
 
What do you remove for what when you sideboard in cards?

[Noah_33]

Thanks Cappy. You actually played so you'd know better.

I board out:

WShop Decks:
4 WGD
1 Oona
1 Mulldrifter
3 Read the Runes
3 Necromancy
1 Dance of the Dead
2 Misdirection

If the WShop deck plays Chalice, I keep Necromancy in over Animate Dead so I don't get rolled to Chalice set at 2.

Drain w/B Decks:
4 WGD
1 Mulldrifter
3 Read the Runes
3 Necromancy
1 Dance of the Dead

I keep Oona in so I don't leave myself vulnerable to Extirpate on Hellkite if discarded. I leave the 3rd Chain in the board.

Fish/Ur Landstill Decks:
4 WGD
1 Oona
1 Mulldrifter
3 Read the Runes
3 Necromancy
1 Dance of the Dead

and 15 cards in.

Oath:
4 WGD
1 Oona
1 Mulldrifter
1 Necromancy
1 Dance of the Dead

IN:
4 Bogarden Hellikte
2 Chain
1 Echoing Truth
1 Oath of Druids

I only board in 1 Oath because I can just use there's, plus I can tutor for it if need be. I mainly tutor for Orchards so I can just use theirs. If they don't play their Oath then I animate Hellkite ftw or just find my own Oath.

[slyfer]

An italian player top8 a 118-people tournament (during italian national championship) with Dragon. List should be available on wizard official site.
See ya pro american! lol

[GoodMorning]

Wouldn't strategic planning work really well in this deck too? It lets you put dragon in the graveyard and gives you other stuff you need in the process. Sounds good to me.

[nineisnoone]

Wouldn't strategic planning work really well in this deck too? It lets you put dragon in the graveyard and gives you other stuff you need in the process. Sounds good to me.

Interested in seeing thoughts on this....  Working off Noah_33's list (which I like more than my own)... I'd make the following changes.

-1 Vampiric Tutor
-1 Imperial Seal
-1 Brainstorm
-1 Chain of Vapor

+4 Strategic Planning.

The Decklist (again taken from Noah_33)

Wins
4 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Mulldrifter

Lands
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Polluted Delta
3 Forbidden Orchard
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical
2 Island
1 Swamp

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

Instants
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
3 Read the Runes
2 Misdirection
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorcerys
3 Deep Analysis
4 Strategic Planning
1 Demonic Tutor

Enchantments
3 Necromancy
3 Animate Dead
1 Dance of the Dead

[Noah_33]

hmmm, interesting card. didn't even knew that card existed. i think this card is good but not better then vamp or seal mainly because of A) the SB plan and B) it doesn't find you Ancestral Recall or a specific combo piece. it may be better then brainstorm and chain of vapor in the deck because it digs and helps the "all in" on the combo game 1 plan. it will have to be tested.

[nineisnoone]

Yeah, I'm not sure if those are the optimal cuts.  Mostly, I figured SP would fill a similar role in the deck, finding your combo pieces.  Maybe not as a 4-of though.  But definitely a slot.  The ability to put your Dragon into the Graveyard and get your Animate on one card is too good for the deck to completely pass up.

I imagine that to make it an optimal card rather than "sometimes better than Impulse" there might need to make other changes.

[vartemis]

DicemanX already posted some excellent reasons why SP isnt that great in Dragon.  I believe it was in the SP SCG thread, but I could be wrong.  The main point is that it just doesnt do enough to replace anything.  It would be great in a deck that wants draw, but that isn't dragon.

j

[nineisnoone]

DicemanX already posted some excellent reasons why SP isnt that great in Dragon.  I believe it was in the SP SCG thread, but I could be wrong.  The main point is that it just doesnt do enough to replace anything.  It would be great in a deck that wants draw, but that isn't dragon.

j

I just read the thread.  And while I agree that it's not as easy of an inclusion into the deck as it might seem, I don't think it should be so easily dismissed.  He seemed to say Dragon in the yard is irrelevant without a Bazaar (or other win condition), neglecting the fact that you could very well draw into your win condition with SP.  I do agree that it isn't a simple matter of replacing one card for another, but it's a meritable card to consider.

[dicemanx]

DicemanX already posted some excellent reasons why SP isnt that great in Dragon.  I believe it was in the SP SCG thread, but I could be wrong.  The main point is that it just doesnt do enough to replace anything.  It would be great in a deck that wants draw, but that isn't dragon.

j

I just read the thread.  And while I agree that it's not as easy of an inclusion into the deck as it might seem, I don't think it should be so easily dismissed.  He seemed to say Dragon in the yard is irrelevant without a Bazaar (or other win condition), neglecting the fact that you could very well draw into your win condition with SP.  I do agree that it isn't a simple matter of replacing one card for another, but it's a meritable card to consider.

I didn't neglect anything - I am fully aware of what Strategic Planning can do. My criticism was of a deck that replaced Intuitions and RtRs, which need to stay in the deck to better support Strategic Planning. The card has some merit if a full complement of Intuitions and RtRs are used, but then again, so does Careful Study which can actually remove DAs and WGDs that accumulate in your hand. The jury's still out on the card in WGD, but I'm not holding my breath. As Noah mentioned it is definitely worth testing, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

[islanderboi10]

So has any good results been posted lately with dragon?

[Liam-K]

It kind of seems like the Oath mode really hinges on your opponent overboarding so that his misboarded deck is as weak as your bazaar-oath deck... and that matches that go to game 3 would be very dependant on jedi powers.  Is this at all accurate?

[islanderboi10]

Here is a list I am currently testing...(Based in Nineisnoone's list)
Wins
4 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Mulldrifter
1 Sundering Titan

Lands
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Polluted Delta
3 Forbidden Orchard
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical
2 Island
1 Swamp

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

Instants
3 Intuition
4 Force of Will
3 Read the Runes
3 Duress
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Chain of Vapor

Sorcerys
3 Deep Analysis
2 Strategic Planning
1 Demonic Tutor

Enchantments
3 Necromancy
3 Animate Dead
1 Dance of the Dead


Wierd Cards....
Strategic Planning, a 2-of: I believe with 3 Intuitions, 3 RtR, 4 Bazaars, The discard could be murderous. I think 2-3 Strat Plannings is the way to go, instead of a full four.  But then again, only testing can tell.

Sundering Titan: I just love this card.  I love it in this meta too.

Duress vs. Mis-D: I'm still not quite sure which one is better, opinions? I am currently testing, but im not sure.  I like duress that way I can break through a wall of counters, without pitching my hand. Not sure, but opinions are welcome =D

Yes I know, the deck is 61 cards...

As for the sideboard, I am liking this configuration...

4 Oath of Druids
4 Bogarden Hellkite
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth


Opinions are welcome...
Thanks!

[fury]

I'm not convinced by Strategic Planning, especially if only 3 Intuition are run in the build. SP may dig the library, but do we need it ?

With the following core, we have :

* 4 Bazaar, 3 Read The Runes : 7 discard cards
* 4 Intuition, 4 Mulldrifter/Deep Analysis : 8 cards which tutors and bury the win condition, and make us draw.

According to me, that's enough.

On the other hand, I find Duress/Thoughtseize better than Misdirection. It's not card disadvantage, and is always useful. Misdirection may be useless against some aggro or Workshop decks.

[islanderboi10]

fury: While I agree that I find Duress better then Misdirection right now, I have been testind SP as a two-of.  It has been pretty good. I will probably end up cutting the sundering titan for the 4th Intuition because it is amazing. I like drawing SP because it still digs through the deck.  There are time, though, which I do not like it.
Testing will tell, I guess.

[fury]

fury: While I agree that I find Duress better then Misdirection right now, I have been testind SP as a two-of.  It has been pretty good. I will probably end up cutting the sundering titan for the 4th Intuition because it is amazing. I like drawing SP because it still digs through the deck.  There are time, though, which I do not like it.
Testing will tell, I guess.

Indeed, Sundering seems to be an overkill card in the main deck list. It may be considered in the sideboard, especially against control decks (though it fears the same hate as Dragon, unless you pack in Tinker).

For SP, I would consider that for two manas, you would better cast deep analysis, one reanimation spell, one tutor. SP doesn't discard what you have in hand, and the most important : it's a sorcery.

I didn't heavily test it, but the card seems to have some weaknesses we should take into consideration, especially when we replace instant spells by SP.
Can you explain the cases when SP was not good for you ? Drawing important cards that you must discard ?

[nineisnoone]

Need the 4th Intuition.

SP and Duress doesn't really work well imo.  Early turns you want to Duress.  Early turns you want to SP.  Both cards get relatively weaker as the game goes on. Duress is the better card, but if you're going to tap out on an SP you'd rather have Mid-D than Duress.  The big advantage of SP is that it's a strong play on 2 mana. 

You don't really need Mulldrifter in this build either, you can just have Titan.  Noah just had the mulldrifter in case you need to get Mulldrifter + Oona as a win off an Intuition if necessary.  You can do the same thing with Titan.  I would also add Tinker if you are going to play Titan.  Which isn't a bad idea with SP as it gives it a good bomb card to dig for.

[desolutionist]

Is the Oath conversion the best way to deal with Leyline of the Void and other sideboard cards?

[theLastGnu]

If you're already running white for orim's chant, pull from eternity is a great option in the SB.

[meadbert]

Is the Oath conversion the best way to deal with Leyline of the Void and other sideboard cards?

Yes.  You can make the Oath conversion very small if you want to.
In general you want something like 4 Oaths, 4 Orchards and 3 Creates/Blessing.

That is 11 cards and sounds like a lot.

In fact it turns out that Tyrant/Oona combo together so you can board into Tyrant Oath.  Tyrant and Oona are both reasonable in the main and Orchards are decent too so you can actually use as few as 5 cards (4 Oath + Blessing) on the transformation.

[dicemanx]

Will you be discussing your latest tourney success meadbert? I'm curious how your unique build fared. Did you end up running Quiet Speculation and Strategic Planning together? My instinct was that SP is most effective with a large complement of instants (Intuition, RtR, and possibly Wish/Entomb) so that SP a WGD into the yard has some meaning aside from drawing the game, but perhaps your tourney experience suggests otherwise.

[meadbert]

Will you be discussing your latest tourney success meadbert? I'm curious how your unique build fared. Did you end up running Quiet Speculation and Strategic Planning together? My instinct was that SP is most effective with a large complement of instants (Intuition, RtR, and possibly Wish/Entomb) so that SP a WGD into the yard has some meaning aside from drawing the game, but perhaps your tourney experience suggests otherwise.

I am not going to post a full report because I did not take good notes and do not remember it too well, but I lost in the finals to Control Slaver after going undefeated the rest of the day.  I actually beat the same Slaver player in an earlier round.  Although the Dragon part of the Slaver matchup is not so good because of Tormod's Crypts, boarding into Tyrant Oath is a real pain for them.  Also, I lost to Titan a few times where if I had Orchard out instead of a dual I would have won so Orchard may not be terrible in the main.
There was a ton of Long which I beat up on a lot so apparently the Long matchup is strong.

More than one opponent remarked that they thought my deck was scarrier post board, so perhaps I should just play Tyrant Oath with Quiet Speculation and Strategic Planning.  A similar thought would be to add a ton of 0cc artifacts like Tormod's Crypt and Engineered Explosives and run Arcane Denials.

Incidently I should have won the final round, but my inexperience with Dragon showed.

My opponent had a sure win next turn and a Tormod's Crypt out, but I had Bazaar, Tropical Island and Mox Pearl out.  I use Black Lotus to play Animate Dead on Dragon.  My opponent Crypted in response to the spell.  I had already pitched Tyrant (Should have been Oona) to Force so my only plan was the Witness plan.  Anyway, I had Necromany in hand and just drew the game when I could have won.

The problem I thought I had was that without another black source I could not get another animate spell to restart the loop.  It turns out I could have instead milled to Witness and stopped the loop by animating Witness while grabbing Dragon with Witness.  Then I could let Crypt resolve.  Then in response to the orginal animate I could have Bazaared Dragon back into the yard and let the orginal animate do its thing putting my library in my hand.  Naturally this occurred to me at 4am about three days later.

It could definitely be the case that Intuition is better than Quiet Speculation for the very reason that you mentioned.  Also Strategic Planning and Quiet Speculation sort of fight for space since they have the same casting cost.  In general I like Quiet Speculation because I get to drop it before Drain/Duress while Intuition is more vulnerable to those.
A token Ancient Grudge out of the board was amazing all day for dealing with Tormod's Crypt and Pithing Needle.

Strategic Planning does three things:
1:  Load the yard:  This is most important for DAs.  If you Planning into a Deep Analysis then you just made a 2 or 3 for 1 trade depending on how you look at it.
2:  Filter:  With terrible top decks like Worldgorger Dragon and Tidespout Tyrant it is convenient to pick which of the 3 cards you want.
3:  Dig:  Unlike more robust versions of Dragon like DicemanX I run a truly 3 card combo since I need Bazaar.  Digging 3 cards deep makes it much more likely that I find all three cards in time.

Note that all three of the above strengths are equally valid in Tyrant Oath.
Originally I did not like the Oath plan because Orchard Tokens + Deep Analysis can be tough times.
I generally was sideboarding in 2 Engineered Explosives which can save you from your own tokens if needed or work with the Tyrant Combo.


I ran Tyrant in the main and then Triskelivus in the board.  This was totally wrong.  As Darien Elderfield (YataGirlOfChaos) pointed out to me, I should have run Oona in the main and then Tyrant in the board. 

Darien was skeptical of how Dragon would do till he saw it in action.  His explanation of why the list was so good is that I played an insane amount of draw while playing a lot of cheap disruption.  On top of this I had the combo finish.

Since both Long and Slaver are both good matchups and I only played against those decks all day I cannot really say this deck is good in general.  I never played against a Wasteland all day long.  I do feel confident in saying that the Long matchup is strong since I won four rounds against Long.

[XdeckX]

Could you share the list you played? By reading the little report I get the impression that the list is really different from the more traditional ones. I'm curious how it looks

[Jo84]

...

My opponent had a sure win next turn and a Tormod's Crypt out, but I had Bazaar, Tropical Island and Mox Pearl out.  I use Black Lotus to play Animate Dead on Dragon.  My opponent Crypted in response to the spell.  I had already pitched Tyrant (Should have been Oona) to Force so my only plan was the Witness plan.  Anyway, I had Necromany in hand and just drew the game when I could have won.

The problem I thought I had was that without another black source I could not get another animate spell to restart the loop.  It turns out I could have instead milled to Witness and stopped the loop by animating Witness while grabbing Dragon with Witness.  Then I could let Crypt resolve.  Then in response to the orginal animate I could have Bazaared Dragon back into the yard and let the orginal animate do its thing putting my library in my hand.  Naturally this occurred to meet 4am about three days later.

...

This wouldn´t have worked as your Animate Dead would have been attached to a Dragon that isn´t in your graveyard anymore after Crypt has resolved. Therefore Animate Dead would be put into your graveyard.
But one question... didn´t you have Oona still in your deck - or did the "should have been Oona" mean you boarded it out?
Then your plan could have been: Let Crypt resolve, Animate Dead fizzle, use Bazaar to get a Dragon back to graveyard, Necromancy on Dragon milling yourself into Oona + creating a huge amount of blue mana and winning.

[XdeckX]

This wouldn´t have worked as your Animate Dead would have been attached to a Dragon that isn´t in your graveyard anymore after Crypt has resolved. Therefore Animate Dead would be put into your graveyard.
But one question... didn´t you have Oona still in your deck - or did the "should have been Oona" mean you boarded it out?
Then your plan could have been: Let Crypt resolve, Animate Dead fizzle, use Bazaar to get a Dragon back to graveyard, Necromancy on Dragon milling yourself into Oona + creating a huge amount of blue mana and winning.

It actually does work.
Animate is on the stack when Tormod's Crypt is added.
In responce you play the necromancy on the dragon milling your library using the Bazaar. When you hit the Eternal Witness you stop and target the Witness with the necromancy.
With CIP trigger you return the dragon to your hand.
You let the stack resolve until Tormod's Crypt is done. The Animate is still on the stack. In responce you activate Bazaar again to discard the dragon. And then you let the Animate resolve. Although I'm unsure what's left in the library which will win the game on the spot.