Cession from DCI

[Deger]

When you think about it what does the DCI really do for Vintage? Wizards runs like one event every year for the format. Most of the other large profile vintage events are not sanctioned by the DCI due to proxy use. It is these proxy tournaments that I think make the format more accessible to new players that do not have the real expensive cards..  So I guess if we as a community have decided to run tournaments outside the DCI why do we look to them for a Banned/Restricted list.. Could we manage our own. Maybe it would be like boxing with different federations or whatever..  I guess I was just fishing for other peoples thoughts.


-Dave

[arctic79]

There is a discussion thread in the adept Chronicals forum that discusses the potential breakoff the Vintage community from the DCI.  There is some good insight to this issue in that forum.

[madmanmike25]

I wish people wouldn't post such things, or at least do so in the casual forums...

There are a host of reasons why cession from the DCI is just plain dumb.  You honestly think that would work?  While we are at it, why have non-restricted cards limited to only 4 copies?  Let's play with 8 FoW's and 8 Shops! 

Get real.  To make a player-based restricted list would essentially ruin Vintage since some people will use the DCI list and others would go the Confederate route....and we all know who lost that war.

It's this simple;  If you don't like the rules of the game don't play it.   As much as I don't want to encourage people to quit MTG, or rather Vintage in particular, you have to play with the cards you are dealt.

I'm no hypocrite either.  I have my threshold and I would seriously consider giving up MTG if Shops were restricted again.  I could easily live with that.  I would just consider myself a collector from then on.

I do not recall the last time I ever saw so many Vintage articles pop up at the same time on this site.  Gee, I wonder if that means people will adapt?

I really do not wish to sound hostile, it's just that what you are suggesting would do more harm than good...

Mods if you would kindly take a suggestion, add topics such as these to the "do not discuss" list.  You have to see that nothing good can come of it...(NE restricted list vs. West Coast restricted list vs. Mid West restricted list etc. etc.)

Just my thoughts,
Mike

[SoulStealer]

In my opinion.

We still need R/D. They are the one who made this game great. But with that also they have the ability to destroy it.
What i don't like about is that there is no organization that has co-body or check and balance.

It's like when they say it that's it. Even thou they vary from the principle they themselves made.
Like the policy of recently restriction.
In the R/D team, does anyone of them really know vintage? who really play vintage competetively.
I'm not a person who knows a lot about them.
I'm still waiting for the article that they promise that will further explain the recent restriction.
Cause there initial explaination sucks! big time!

Regarding the about dci tournaments held for vintage. Well we are Secondary Market.
They don't make a lot of money from us. Which they also need to support the Game.
Most of there profits are coming from standard cards.

[shade88]

Get real. 

QFT

The DCI provides unbiased judgments towards the game. Ultimately they keep the format from growing stagnant.

~~~

Consider that we adopted a do it yourself restriction policy. Consider that we tweaked and jiggled the list and ended up with a meta that had multiple archetypes, fun to play with archetypes, and was ultimately balanced. How long would that last? Where do you go from there if it does last? Would people really be able to play in that environment for an undetermined amount of time? Keep in mind, this restricted list is the best we are able to come up with: it's ideal. So it's not going to be changed.

If we don't want to change it at all we end up relying solely on the newer cards printed in each set. A nice feature of having specific banned/restricted announcements is that they don't occur the same day a set comes out. The format can expect continual innovations even if they are minor.
Vintage is defined by cards created 15 years ago that have had a lasting impact. The format should tailor itself to staying focused around them. Not to say it won't--it's just vintage should not be thought as a format frozen in utopia waiting for the next set to see if it will last. Let the DCI shake it up and see what happens. If it is truly terrible it can be changed back. 

~~~

A casual format played with a few friends can follow house rules i.e. buddies playing vintage. Tournament environment formats such as vintage need strict rules laid out that everyone can adhere to. Vintage isn't just casual, it's competitive. Finally, is it really realistic to say we can change the list while remaining unbiased?

With all that said, I still believe the biggest issue is realistic expectations. This change will never work, not on paper, nor in real life. This fact, in the practical sense, doesn't take a vintage mind to realize; so it's that much more difficult for one to argue in favor of giving up the list.

[oneofchaos]

I would love for us to manage the restricted list...but with great power comes great responsibility...(i'm sorry).

I just wouldn't know how to fairly create such a list.  You want card X unrestricted while I don't.  What do we do?  Who has the say on it?  What about people that don't read TMD?  People will be confused from tournament advertisements what B/R they are using, the official DCI or played created one.  However, as Myriad did a while ago in the "Yawgmoth's will banned tournament", I'd suggest you find a way to hold special tournaments time to time.  This would keep innovation up, but offer rewards. 

[Shock Wave]

There are players in the process of creating a sanctioning body for an independent B&R list. Whether it will have the desired effect and gain the respect of the community remains to be seen. I think it could work well, but it is hard to say what the effects will be until we see it in action. Personally, I don't see a reason why DCI Vintage and some other modified version could not co-exist. I don't think it should be a choice of one or the other. In any case, it will be interesting to see what happens.

[arctic79]

As much as I don't like the current rulings from the DCI, I have to admit that the DCI is better then a group of players. As flawed as the DCI is with regards to Vintage, they are (supposedly)impartial.  A group of players creating a list will be biased and probably ineffective because of different emotions and tendancies regarding certain cards.
 I think a co-operation between DCI and the community would be a best cased scenario.  Each side could bounce around suggestions while getting the other's point of view on a ruling. 

[Godder]

In my opinion, the concept of the DCI is fine - restrictions should be handled by people who understand the individual formats, rather than the current system of RnD (who are busy enough with other stuff as it is) doing all of them.

[ReAnimator]

Wizards runs like one event every year for the format. Most of the other large profile vintage events are not sanctioned by the DCI due to proxy use. It is these proxy tournaments that I think make the format more accessible to new players that do not have the real expensive cards.. 
-Dave

You forgot about Europe which all your assumptions prove false. There are lots and lots of zero proxy sanctioned large vintage tournaments every year. By starting your own "DCI" you are further splitting the european and north american meta's into different formats like legacy and T1.

[Polynomial P]

I see this only as a bad idea. Ill be honest, I am not excited about Vintage 2.0. I really liked the format for the past 6 months as there were several good decks and I had a blast playing GAT. However, as stated here and elsewhere, there are just so many problems about cession from the DCI. The most important is who would make the decisions about restrictions? If it is a group of people that play the format, it becomes easy for them use the B/R restriction to make decks they like stronger. Manipulation of the format would be incredibly easy for them. Also, we as a community have such a hard time agreeing on what should or should not be restricted. Hopefully these new changes are good for the format and maybe Ill get over it and start working on new decks for Vintage 2.0.

[Deger]

I was more posing a what if kind of situation. I do actually think that having one list is kind of a good thing, I do think that the DCI needs to  be a little more up on things.  I think that Vintage has a large adaptability curve (maybe that makes no sense) but I think that where it is a format that gets the most totally broken S@## happening it also has the best ability to keep that broken S#^# in check.  I know we all have our favorite card and would love to play with them no holds barred. I also understand that there needs to be a Banned/Restricted list because there are some things that really can disrupt the game. I also do not really believe there should be a cards that can almost Autowin a game when it is played..  I know that you can not predict what new cards are going to do when they react with the older ones in an environment such as vintage. So there should be some group that says stop we need to fix this problem that is making the game unfun for the majority of players. And honestly I think the DCI does a pretty good job..  Sometimes they Nerf it hey we all do. I think they are better now they they used to be. 

As far as the secondary market is concerned well isn't extended a secondary market format also.  I remember when it was created and we all thought it was awesome because we could play with all the revised dual lands and 4 forks.. I think that the DCI should support vintage a bit more then it does but I also understand that Vintage kinda gets a bad rap from younger players because of the price involved in some of the cards but I think you really need to look at the cost of playing standard and well it is kind close to even.. I have been playing  long enough to know how it all works..  I used to play every weekend with the guys that are making the B/R lists and designing the sets now.  They are pretty good at knowing what is broken and what is not.. But also I think they are kinda removed from the vintage scene.

Like I said I was just throwing the idea out there.. 

[Matt]

Just FYI, you probably all mean "secession."

[AngryPheldagrif]

Look, let's be both honest and realistic about this. We had it up in the Adept Lounge and we STILL couldn't even come CLOSE to an agreement. This will never work.

If I asked you to pick 10 players/TOs/whoever to form a new B/R council, you probably could. If I asked another poster, they probably could. I have the feeling there would be little or no overlap. No given council of players is going to please everyone or even the majority. It's a horribly unfeasible idea.

[Shock Wave]

Look, let's be both honest and realistic about this. We had it up in the Adept Lounge and we STILL couldn't even come CLOSE to an agreement. This will never work.

To say "never" would mean that it is impossible. It may be difficult to organize and it may not get the anticipated support, but it is possible that this could work. Even if there is some evidence to the contrary, it is not substantive to make such a claim.

If I asked you to pick 10 players/TOs/whoever to form a new B/R council, you probably could. If I asked another poster, they probably could. I have the feeling there would be little or no overlap. No given council of players is going to please everyone or even the majority. It's a horribly unfeasible idea.

It is not important for there to be any overlap. All that is important is that a competent council is assembled. It's not as if there are only 10 experienced, dedicated players in this community that would fit the bill. In fact, I doubt many would be interested in such a role anyways. As for being a "horribly unfeasible idea", that is really just speculation. We can throw out guesses for now, but we're better off waiting to see what happens.

[ErkBek]

If we were to "break off" from the DCI, it'd probably be a good idea to do an extended mock run to prove we are capable of it. Without any type of evidence that we can handle such a thing, players will be very wary before going through with it.

I think what Wizards did was brilliant, however they did a piss poor job in explaining their rational and thus didn't sell it well to the players.

[Almighty]

I think this is being way overthought. All that is being proposed is essentially a casual format called "If I were the DCI...". If it ends up being more fun than vintage, maybe you all can convince people to play it. If you think it's that much fun, I'll give it a shot. Now just go make the banned/restricted list so I can figure out what to play.

Seriously. Bickering amongst each other accusing other's judgements on what constitutes "too powerful a card." is the only thing that keeps this from becoming from happening. Someone just make a list and start playing with it. If it looks good, people will agree play with it. If it's not, they won't.

I won't though. I like vintage as the DCI sees fit. I've no reason to create a casual format of my own.

[Norm4eva]

It sort of goes beyond just creating a wacky new B/R list for people to entertain.  The DCI doesn't just sanction tournaments, it certifies judges.  Are you willing to construct a judge certification test?  Or will you just borrow DCI certified judges, piggybacking off a system you don't wish to participate in?  It's not like you can just have tourneys where the herd watches itself or defers to the TO when there's a dispute.
What happens when your new group needs to weed out bad players?  You can't just say "Herb Froman is B@!!!" because for all you know there are no less than 27 Herb Fromans playing Vintage.  You'd need to create a registry akin to DCI numbers.  You willing to adopt that practice?  If not, how do you intend to truly crack down on shenanigans?
Forget about the b/r list for a second; does anyone here have the resource, either of time or money or both, to independently construct and moderate this new sanctioning body?  If not, you're talking about the biggest game of Kitchen Magic ever, and nobody likes being told how to play Magic in the kitchen.
 

[Shock Wave]

It sort of goes beyond just creating a wacky new B/R list for people to entertain.  The DCI doesn't just sanction tournaments, it certifies judges.  Are you willing to construct a judge certification test?  Or will you just borrow DCI certified judges, piggybacking off a system you don't wish to participate in?  It's not like you can just have tourneys where the herd watches itself or defers to the TO when there's a dispute.
What happens when your new group needs to weed out bad players?  You can't just say "Herb Froman is B@!!!" because for all you know there are no less than 27 Herb Fromans playing Vintage.  You'd need to create a registry akin to DCI numbers.  You willing to adopt that practice?  If not, how do you intend to truly crack down on shenanigans?
Forget about the b/r list for a second; does anyone here have the resource, either of time or money or both, to independently construct and moderate this new sanctioning body?  If not, you're talking about the biggest game of Kitchen Magic ever, and nobody likes being told how to play Magic in the kitchen.

Since this is a project that is in the works, the answers to all of your questions is: Yes, these issues have all been considered, and only through implementation of the logistics of the new sanctioning body will we be able to determine if all goes according to the plan. Like I've already said a million times before, there will be plenty of challenges but until the project fails in practice, theorizing that a project of this nature would fail horribly is nothing more than speculation.

[c dizzle]

Okay, I'll bite. Let's make a list. I propose we keep the DCI's banned card because thereasons for banning those cards are sound. How about this to start:

    * Ancestral Recall
    * Black Lotus
    * Burning Wish
    * Channel
    * Crop Rotation
    * Demonic Consultation
    * Demonic Tutor
    * Enlightened Tutor
    * Entomb
    * Fastbond
    * Imperial Seal
    * Lion’s Eye Diamond
    * Mana Crypt
    * Mana Vault
    * Memory Jar
    * Mind’s Desire
    * Mox Emerald
    * Mox Jet
    * Mox Pearl
    * Mox Ruby
    * Mox Sapphire
    * Mystical Tutor
    * Necropotence
    * Sol Ring
    * Strip Mine
    * Time Walk
    * Timetwister
    * Tinker
    * Tolarian Academy
    * Trinisphere
    * Vampiric Tutor
    * Wheel of Fortune
    * Yawgmoth’s Bargain
    * Yawgmoth’s Will

[Anusien]

Wizards runs like one event every year for the format. Most of the other large profile vintage events are not sanctioned by the DCI due to proxy use. It is these proxy tournaments that I think make the format more accessible to new players that do not have the real expensive cards.. 
-Dave

You forgot about Europe which all your assumptions prove false. There are lots and lots of zero proxy sanctioned large vintage tournaments every year. By starting your own "DCI" you are further splitting the european and north american meta's into different formats like legacy and T1.

This is a serious concern that I think is being overlooked.  Will morphling.de carry decklists from "The New Vintage", for example?  Will Wizards continue to run the Vintage Championships?

Since this is a project that is in the works, the answers to all of your questions is: Yes, these issues have all been considered, and only through implementation of the logistics of the new sanctioning body will we be able to determine if all goes according to the plan. Like I've already said a million times before, there will be plenty of challenges but until the project fails in practice, theorizing that a project of this nature would fail horribly is nothing more than speculation.

So you're saying, "Until you've actually seen my idea fail, don't cite the numerous potential problems that need to be anticipated and avoided."?  It seems like anticipating these problems ahead of time is a good way to have this not fall flat on its face.

[kmclaughlin]

Okay, I'll bite. Let's make a list. I propose we keep the DCI's banned card because thereasons for banning those cards are sound. How about this to start:

    * Ancestral Recall
    * Black Lotus
    * Burning Wish
    * Channel
    * Crop Rotation
    * Demonic Consultation
    * Demonic Tutor
    * Enlightened Tutor
    * Entomb
    * Fastbond
    * Imperial Seal
    * Lion’s Eye Diamond
    * Mana Crypt
    * Mana Vault
    * Memory Jar
    * Mind’s Desire
    * Mox Emerald
    * Mox Jet
    * Mox Pearl
    * Mox Ruby
    * Mox Sapphire
    * Mystical Tutor
    * Necropotence
    * Sol Ring
    * Strip Mine
    * Time Walk
    * Timetwister
    * Tinker
    * Tolarian Academy
    * Trinisphere
    * Vampiric Tutor
    * Wheel of Fortune
    * Yawgmoth’s Bargain
    * Yawgmoth’s Will

Needs more Gush.

<quote>This is a serious concern that I think is being overlooked.  Will morphling.de carry decklists from "The New Vintage", for example?  Will Wizards continue to run the Vintage Championships?</quote>

If the movement grew large enough I think it'd apply enough pressure to Wizards to force them to accept that they have no idea what they are doing when it comes to Vintage. I think it'd be even easier to get other vintage sites to recognize the "new vintage." The biggest hurdle would be to kick start the movement and get enough players involved.

I think there is no question that wizards doesn't think about either eternal format too much. I mean, c'mon. Land Tax is banned. Regardless, it seems that most of the people who are speaking up are about 50-50 on the subject.

[Tha Gunslinga]

If the movement grew large enough I think it'd apply enough pressure to Wizards to force them to accept that they have no idea what they are doing when it comes to Vintage.

We've been playing with proxies for years now, and Wizards has no interest in allowing those in the Championships.  How would this be different?

I think there is no question that wizards doesn't think about either eternal format too much. I mean, c'mon. Land Tax is banned.

Land Tax is banned in Legacy for time reasons I believe.  That's a totally different subject.

Regardless, it seems that most of the people who are speaking up are about 50-50 on the subject.

Really?  I'm 100% against it, and I see a lot of other people who are too.

[Zherbus]

Regardless, it seems that most of the people who are speaking up are about 50-50 on the subject.

I'm definitely 100% against it. Do a count - it's more like 5 to 1 against it. It's self-destructive and ill-conceived.

[Mantis]

Regardless, it seems that most of the people who are speaking up are about 50-50 on the subject.

Really?  I'm 100% against it, and I see a lot of other people who are too.

Same goes for me.

100% against this idea. I liked the idea at first but after reading contributions of respected TMD-ers I came to the conclusion that self-management is Utopian, it is never going to work the way it is envisioned. Forcing through this idea will only result in chaos and destruction of the integrity of the format as we know it. With such a large portion of TMD's Vintage community already against it, how can we expect everyone will ever be on the same page? In theory however I like the idea, democracy has always proven to be more effective than dictature. Still, we lack the resources and logistics to effectively make every vote count and every voice be heard. In short, as much as I would like a self governing body to work, I don't think it ever will.
I'm also questioning how many people are willing to put the HUGE amount of effort into creating a good system, this is going to take years of  and a lot of dedication.

Besides, some good restrictions and un-restrictions shake up the format and to me that's fun, as we get a new window to design decks in each time the new B/R list sees press. Personally I was thrilled to see Brainstorm, Flash, Gush and Ponder restricted, the format is so freaking awesome right now, this would never have happened if it was to be decided by all the GAT players who love Gush, Ponder and especially Brainstorm.

[Godder]

I don't see the point of it - unless there's a major longterm sponsor willing to pay the money to make it happen, the DCI is absolutely fine other than needing a better way of gaining input on Eternal B&R decisions.

[RThomas]

I think there is no question that wizards doesn't think about either eternal format too much. I mean, c'mon. Land Tax is banned. Regardless, it seems that most of the people who are speaking up are about 50-50 on the subject.

This is the kind of thinking that is completely circumventive of the issue.  I do not see an objective argument on this issue yet.  This announcement happened under three weeks ago and there is already an moral uproar.  You may hem and haw all you want, but you do not have any one piece of objective evidence to support your argument for changing the restricted cards.  Do not count your individual tests, because you know there is no chance of having that being admissable in your argument. 

You seem to be in a rush to fix something that you don't even know is broken-- or if it is even broken.  It takes time and results to know whether a government's legislation is erroneous; this announcement does not contain many different facets, so it should not be treated extraordinarily differently.

[Almighty]

This is a serious concern that I think is being overlooked.  Will morphling.de carry decklists from "The New Vintage", for example?  Will Wizards continue to run the Vintage Championships?

Nope. And nor should they. Kitchen table magic is best left in the casual magic forums/articles.

*Disclaimer* I am at heart a kitchen table player, Vintage is the closest constructed format resembling the kitchen table in my eyes.

[LordHomerCat]

This is a serious concern that I think is being overlooked.  Will morphling.de carry decklists from "The New Vintage", for example?  Will Wizards continue to run the Vintage Championships?

Nope. And nor should they. Kitchen table magic is best left in the casual magic forums/articles.

*Disclaimer* I am at heart a kitchen table player, Vintage is the closest constructed format resembling the kitchen table in my eyes.

That may be true, but I don't play Kitchen Table magic and I'd be willing to bet upwards of 90% of the people on here are not interested in Kitchen Table vintage either.  I'm not 100% sure what you meant by that comment, but if you were suggesting that Vintage is a casual format and should be treated that way by Wizards, I could not disagree more and have no interest in playing vintage as such.  It's a real format, and it's a very competitive one, and Wizards (and the players) should view it as comparable to Standard or Legacy (albeit less popular and more difficult to officially support).

For the record, I think fragmenting is not a workable idea.  It would be too hard to get everyone on board, and if half the players play each format, it pretty much just makes them both irrelevant.  This B&R decision sucks, but I'm willing to give WOTC some more time before I'm ready to jump ship and I would bet most vintage players feel the same.  When they make Vintage not-vintage (by banning Will or something equivalently insane), then I will happily join your other format, but until that point, I'd rather see what happens in real vintage.

Edit: I also cannot think of any group of 9 (or whatever the number is) players I would trust to make good B&R decisions.  Steve and Rich, for instance, are smart and passionate about the format, but the fact of the matter is that most of the older players and many of the best known are heavily biased in favor of blue decks.  On the other hand, there are people who never touch islands, who would be just as biased in the other direction.  There is too much personal investment in the format to make good decisions unless you have nothing to gain/lose (like wotc).

[Almighty]

This is a serious concern that I think is being overlooked.  Will morphling.de carry decklists from "The New Vintage", for example?  Will Wizards continue to run the Vintage Championships?

Nope. And nor should they. Kitchen table magic is best left in the casual magic forums/articles.

*Disclaimer* I am at heart a kitchen table player, Vintage is the closest constructed format resembling the kitchen table in my eyes.

That may be true, but I don't play Kitchen Table magic and I'd be willing to bet upwards of 90% of the people on here are not interested in Kitchen Table vintage either.  I'm not 100% sure what you meant by that comment, but if you were suggesting that Vintage is a casual format and should be treated that way by Wizards, I could not disagree more and have no interest in playing vintage as such.  It's a real format, and it's a very competitive one, and Wizards (and the players) should view it as comparable to Standard or Legacy (albeit less popular and more difficult to officially support).

Ahh, should have clarified. Vintage is indeed a competitive format with some very good players. It's the one format I can bring the kitchen table deck to and still have fun with it due to the very laid back and casual atmosphere. Sometimes that kitchen table deck *works* and I start poking my head in the top 8s. The disclaimer was meant to state that I am not really against the idea of creating a new format to play, since people love their brainstorms and probably want a format where they work. I think it is extremely arrogant to assume that their vision of "vintage" will be superior to the format as defined by the DCI. But that does not mean their new format won't work or create a following. If Shockwave can have his Random Gauntlet format be a success, why shouldn't this?

I feel some people take themselves too seriously.