UBG Fish

[IthilanorStPete]

// Lands
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Wasteland
    2  Tropical Island
    4  Polluted Delta
    2  Underground Sea
    1  Flooded Strand
    1  Island
    1  Swamp

// Creatures
    4  Cursecatcher
    3  Voidmage Prodigy
    3  Gilded Drake
    4  Waterfront Bouncer
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Tarmogoyf

// Spells
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Sapphire
    4  Force of Will
    4  Thoughtseize
    1  Brainstorm
    4  AEther Vial
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Leyline of the Void
SB: 4  Duress
SB: 3  Trygon Predator
SB: 4  Pithing Needle
SB: 1  Yixlid Jailer

Most things should be pretty obvious. I'm hesitant about having both Prodigy and Cursecatcher, and I want to put Null Rod in, but Aether Vial prevents this. Also, I suspect this doesn't have a very good game against Workshops. Thoughts and suggestions?

[samurai_socks]

Deleted.

[the boogie man]

 I really like null rod, but if you cut waterfront bouncers, you could run jittes, and put rods in the side. Yould even run some of the predators main, they pitch to force and provide a much-needed evasive beater, and it gets around chalice @ 2.

 Other possible additions are mystical tutor and wipe away, as they raise the blue count. So would ninja of the deep.

 I also agree that you don't really need the vials. They are kind of slow. I do agree on the singleton life from the loam, and I usually run extirpate, but that may be sideboard now that gush and brainstorm are gone.

 

[TopSecret]

How consistently does the Drake combo come online?
I like the idea.

If the Drake combo isn't pulling it's weight,
you could take the Drakes and the Vials out to add Null Rods and maindeck Trygon Predators,
to help with the shop and oath matchups.

Shouldn't Leyline be a 4 'of in the sideboard, since you want to see one in your opening hand?

[the boogie man]

I still think that jitte is a much better replacement for the gilded drake/waterfront bouncer combo. The best reason to play bouncer has been restricted (Gat), and drake is usually a bad trade anyway. I'd rather save a lot of slots and add something that adds to the offensive and doubles as good removal, especially running 4-of cursecatchers.

Jittes would also make ninjas not quite so dull after they have surprised your oponent.

[The Duressed]

Trygon Predator is outrageously good in a deck like this. Especially if you decide to play Jitte, he's just nuts. Also, I really believe that the thing that makes fish decks work right now is the addition of Null Rod.

I'm not sure how well the Drake / Bouncer combo works for you, but I know that for me it was always win-more. I would focus on using some simple creature-kill-- whatever works for you. You might also decide that you just want to play more Thoughtseizes.

[Sean Ryan]

There are quite a few directions you could take u/b/g Fish, but to begin I would start with Null Rod.  Ditch the Vials they are simply unnecessary.  Personally I would go with a more traditional approach:

Here is a rough Skeleton:

// Creatures: 15
    4  Cursecatcher
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Tarmogoyf
    3  OPEN SLOT SEE BELOW

// Spells:22
    4  Force of Will
    2  Daze
    2  Stiffle
    4 Thoughtseize/Duress
    3  Null Rod
    1  Echoing Truth/Dark Blast
    1  Brainstorm
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Life From the Loam

// Mana: 23
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Strip Mine
    3  Wasteland
    2  Mishra's Factory
    2  Tropical Island
    4  Polluted Delta
    3  Underground Sea
    2  Flooded Strand
    1  Island
    1  Swamp

The 3 open creature spots could be filled with Waterfront Bouncer, Ninja, Trygon Predator, or even something like Negator or Withered Wretch.  I am leaning toward a blue creature though b/c. for FoW.  I have never liked Demonic tutor in Null Rod Fish, but with the addition  of Life From the Loam Strip/Factory recursion it may prove valuable.

The Side Board should be metagmed but has many answers:

Leyline
Extirpate
Jailer
Withered Wretch
Trygon Predator
Energy Flux
Rebuild
Island
Drake
Jitte
Smother

I may just have to sleeve this one up!  I this hope this helps.

[The Duressed]

It's certainly a good start for a list, at the very least. A couple things I'd like to ask/mention:

Cursecatcher-- He's kind of cool, but the problem with him is that he's an on-board trick. There are no surprises here; the only thing he does is beats for one and gets you a small tempo advantage. That doesn't sound so bad, except that this deck really wants to get into the late game, which just so happens to be a time when you really, really don't want to draw this guy. You already have a bunch of disruption in Force, Daze, and Duress. I don't think this guy brings enough to the table to warrant inclusion. Perhaps go with something that is a stronger clock, which this deck desperately needs. This guy's power is really, really bad. Replacement options include, in no particular order, Sarcomancy, Nimble Mongoose, and Phyrexian Negator.

Mishra's Factory-- The inclusion of this is iffy. Firstly, it skews your mana base in a direction you don't want it to go. You'll see more mana screw with these in your deck, and that's all there is to it. The idea of pairing it with Life from the Loam is nice, but it doesn't work terribly well. It's incredibly mana-intensive for a deck like this, and also just slow and clunky. Furthermore, you won't even get this going very often because you're only playing 2 Factories. I like that this is a land with power and toughness, but at the same time, I just don't know if this is really going to help your deck in the long run.

The Late Game-- Your deck wants to make it to the late game, clearly. Your first few turns will almost surely involve a turn 1 disruption spell, a turn 2 two-drop (confidant, goyf, null rod), and then using turn 3 to advance whatever plan you got going during turns 1 and 2. The fundamental problem that I keep running into when I build fish decks that involve black is the following: I invariably run Dark Confidant, and also enjoy running things like Duress, Thoughtseize, et cetera. This would be fine, except that the deck you're playing against will probably be better in top-decking mode than you. They can draw cards that say "win the game," while you can draw cards like Duress, which are of minimal value at that stage of the game. The problem has always been finishing off the opponent quickly enough. Decks like this need a clock, and they need it to be fairly quick. Your opponent can always draw out of a situation if you give them long enough. Your job is to build a deck that can disrupt the early game, and apply enough pressure that they don't just get to sit there and draw out of it. It's for this reason that I don't really like Cursecatcher in this deck. He's cool in the early game, but you have a bunch of things to do in then anyway. He's bad in the late game, where your deck wants to go.

I hope I've been helpful, and if you've got more things you want to talk about, please respond. I've played a {G} fish deck for the past several months, so I'd like to think that I know my way around the general archetype.

[Moxlotus]

It's for this reason that I don't really like Cursecatcher in this deck. He's cool in the early game, but you have a bunch of things to do in then anyway. He's bad in the late game, where your deck wants to go. 

But doesn't Cursecatcher help you get to the late game?  If you already want to get to the late game, then why do you need more cards that are strong in the late game?  If you want to get to the late game that means that you've already got good cards for the late game--you need to survive the early game.  I've found Cursecatcher+Null Rod to be one of the best combos in the current metagame.

[samurai_socks]

Deleted.

[The Duressed]

I have to concede that when the creature count gets up towards 18 or so, you don't need your guys to all be powerhouses. So sure, the Curse can be good for you. The problem I think I have is that without the 2 Mishra's Factories, there are only 15 creatures in the deck, which I feel like is getting a little too low to play the 1/1s. So sure, go for it, but if I were you, I'd be very wary of my mana base.

[Sean Ryan]

I agree that null rod is very strong in the metagame at the moment so that may be the way to take the deck forward but this version is at least a playable starting point.

Not if you want to win.  Without Rod or at least Chalice, you are a sitting duck.

[IthilanorStPete]

Would Wake Thrasher be a good fit in a UBg list?

[The Duressed]

While he could be relevant as a finisher, I think Phyrexian Negator would just be better. Tapping out (or mostly out) is not only something you probably don't really want to do (stifle, e.g.), but also is something that probably won't come up that often anyway. You don't really play any high-casting cards, and you aren't usually running 3 or 4 spells out there a turn. The "draw, attack, go" turns happen often enough, and you don't want to end up forcing mana burn on yourself.

[Pomaxx]

beside the 2 stifles, why should you not tap out? as an aggressive aggro control deck with proactive disruption in form of Duress effects there seems to be no reason not to tap out if needed. Daze and Forces dont require open mana.

[The Duressed]

My point was, are you going to be able to tap out without taking burn? Would you bet the game on it?

[Pomaxx]

point accepted

beside his colour, Wake Trasher doesnt seem too impressive. you have enough beats and the Tarmogoyfs should be big enough  after a few rounds.

[Moxlotus]

I missed the top8 of the Vintage Champs by going 5-2 after losing in round 7.  Here is the decklist I played.

Mana: 24
5 strip
3 Tropical island
3 underground sea
1 bayou
4 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
1 black lotus
4 mox (yes, 4)

Guys: 16
4 Tarmagoofus
4 Dark Confidant
4 Cursecatcher
2 Waterfront Bouncer
2 Trygon Predator

Spells: 20
1 Ancestal
1 Time Walk
4 Force
4 Duress
3 Rod
2 Stifle
2 Trickbind
2 Echoing Truth
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
2 Oxidize
1 Null Rod
1 Trygon Predator
1 Stifle
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Control Magic
2 Darkblast

The only card in the maindeck that I would replace would be Vamp.  I'm not sure what I'd put in its place.  The sideboard was pretty awesome all day.  I did a 2/2 split between Threads and Control magic because negators were showing up to the party in the sideboards of Long.  I have a pretty solid game against basically everything with this deck except Ichorid.  You just flat out lose to that with this build.  It was a risk I was willing to take and got burned by it in round 4 against Nighbor.  You would have to gut the sideboard to have a chance, and I didn't feel it was worth it.  I cut Spell Snares at the last minute for 2 Trickbind after deciding that Long was going to be everywhere (and it was, but I didn't get paired against it).  Krosan Grip is probably the 3rd best green card in Vintage behind Tarmogoyf and Oath.  There is no reason to play any other type of Oath hate when that exists.  The way the SB ends up looking you pretty much can't lose to Dreadnaught and Dragon becomes pretty awesome even if they transform into Oath (just watch out for animate dead on big creature).

Null Rod is the reason this deck is viable.  Don't think for a second it is anything else.  Null Rod is probably the 3rd most powerful unrestricted card in the format behind Force and Ritual. 

[pierce]

dont cut the vamp. add demonic too. i cant see how this deck wins without time walking.

[The Duressed]

How relevant did the Waterfront Bouncers turn out to be? Also, did you really need the off-color Mox to be a permanent mana source, or could you cut it for a Lotus Petal?

[Moxlotus]

Demonic is freaking awful.  You don't want to spend 2 mainphase mana to tutor up a card.  None of your cards are powerful enough to warrant that.  It was cut weeks before the tournament.  The bouncers weren't super important in the matches I ended up facing, but I didn't end up facing a lot of Tinkers or any Oath on the day.  They very well could have been useful in my Dragon match, but I'm not sure of his hand so I can't be sure.  I liked the 4th off-color mox for some mana stability.  I was running 24 sources with 4 rods in the main, but took out 1 rod so I could take out a mana source.  But when I replaced the rod with a 3cc card, a 2nd Predator, the 24th source had to stay.

  i cant see how this deck wins without time walking. 

Null Rod wins games.  Null Rod+4 stifle effects+forces+duresses+5 strips+cursecatcher=mana problems.  Bob keeps you drawing while Goyf finishes them off.

[The Duressed]

How was Trickbind for you? Were you using it as an uncounterable Stifle vs. Long? Would it have been better, just as good, or worse if it were a regular Stifle instead?

[pierce]

Demonic is freaking awful.  You don't want to spend 2 mainphase mana to tutor up a card.  None of your cards are powerful enough to warrant that.  It was cut weeks before the tournament.  The bouncers weren't super important in the matches I ended up facing, but I didn't end up facing a lot of Tinkers or any Oath on the day.  They very well could have been useful in my Dragon match, but I'm not sure of his hand so I can't be sure.  I liked the 4th off-color mox for some mana stability.  I was running 24 sources with 4 rods in the main, but took out 1 rod so I could take out a mana source.  But when I replaced the rod with a 3cc card, a 2nd Predator, the 24th source had to stay.

  i cant see how this deck wins without time walking. 

Null Rod wins games.  Null Rod+4 stifle effects+forces+duresses+5 strips+cursecatcher=mana problems.  Bob keeps you drawing while Goyf finishes them off.

I've played fish at five tournaments before. They ended with four t4s or better, and one disheartening scrub to morphlings and goblins.
I know how you win with fish. I understand the concept of mana denial very well. Tarmogoyf is busted, yes. He got me to nationals last year.

I disagree with your statements for the tutors. 100%. Time walk is the best card in fish. Four mana on board, with a demonic in hand, will always end with me winning, via time walk.
have you ever time walked with bob? It's ridic. How about with goyf? Since he is the Finisher and all.

Plus is null rod is so good, then how good is turn one vampiric?

Also, I'm fairly sure that Sower of Temptation might be better than control magic.

best
pierce

[Moxlotus]

Also, I'm fairly sure that Sower of Temptation might be better than control magic. 

Sower is hit by common cards such as Barbarian Ring, Triskelion/Triskelavus, Duplicant, and Pyroclasm.  Control Magic isn't.  I've played Sower before but opted to go with Control magic this time around to make sure the effect has a higher likelyhood of sticking around, at the cost of attacking for 2 each turn.  Attacking for 2 isn't bad in fish, but its significance is less when you consider that you just stole a creature with 5+ power or a goblin Welder.

I'm not going to say Time Walk is a bad card.  I'm saying that 2UB to take an extra turn is bad.  The only card that is ever worth casting Demonic for is Time Walk.  Once in a blue moon you might go get strip mine.  Vamp is an instant that can be played EOT when they didn't have anything juicy to stifle/Spellsnare.  That's why Vamp stayed over DT. 

How was Trickbind for you? Were you using it as an uncounterable Stifle vs. Long? Would it have been better, just as good, or worse if it were a regular Stifle instead?

Didn't get the chance to find out unfortunately.  I didn't get to play Long, which was unfortunate since I had a solid game against it before I replaced Spell Snares with Trickbinds.  Right now I'll go with the "as good" option with how they played through the tournament.  They were definitely awesome against Dragon.  The other times I played TB, it might as well have been stifle, but it was played when mana wasn't really an issue for me.  I'd probably cut the Trickbinds before the stifles, but the mix was good to throw people off on how many I was playing.  They were a last minute addition and could easily be replaced for other disruption if the meta called for it.

[breed]

@MoxLotus:

I will try to make a build to play for the french big tournament this month. I only have 2 moxen and Time Walk, hope it will be enough (I may find a 3rd mox). What do you think of adding Brainstorm or/and Ponder in the deck (as I dont have Ancestral Recall for now)?

Thanks.

[jeffthefob]

Brainstorm seems pretty decent in that list since it ran 7x fetchlands.  I didn't put in U/W because there aren't a lot of ways to shuffle.  I am not so sure about Ponder on the other hand.

[breed]

Thanks for your answers.

Also, I'm not sure if I let Waterfront bouncer in the deck. After some testing, it seems not enough usefull. What beast can I add instead?