What are the most powerful/viable cards that you think are underplayed?

[zeus-online]

Skeletal scrying anyone?
It's still an awesome card-drawer.

/Zeus

[bluemage55]

Then why did you post it as a viable underplayed combo?

I have no idea, must have been some sort of typo from before; I think it was meant to be Karn + Time Vault + Umbral Mantle.  As it is now very much oudated, I removed it.

Skeletal scrying anyone?
It's still an awesome card-drawer.

Agree.  I used it and loved it in the days of Xc Control.  It's also always been neat as a SB option with Cunning Wish.  Unfortunately, it's a little bit weaker nowadays since some cantrips like Brainstorm, Ponder, and Merchant Scroll that would fill your graveyard nicely are now restricted.  I'll add it to the list.

[Mantis]

If Skeletal Scrying is in that list, Intuition/AK should be on there too. Both are probably outclassed by Remora/Meditate right now, but in creature heavy metagames a good case could be made for Intu/AK and maybe Skeletal Scrying.

Although Gorilla Shaman does see play, I think it's very much underplayed as well so he deserves a spot on the list too. The same goes for Mishra's Workshop and it's archetypes.

I don't necessarily think the cards on bluemage55 list are all that viable right now. Basically he listed cards that see no play at all, but could be viable. Is that the purpose of the thread? That said, Thrumming Stone, Mind's Eye and Gamble just don't make the cut right now I think, although they might be cards that could surprise us with a totally new archetype built around them.

[reaperbong]

I think Jester's Cap could be added. I'd never seen it played since the Ice Age days but at last tourny I was at someone was running 4 in a Shops build and raping a number of deck archetypes. It was hilarious to watch!

[Mantis]

I actually found Jester's Cap horrible the tourney I played with it. Sideboarded it in exactly 0 times and in testing it has been very unimpressive only doing something against TPS, but they are often too slow to even matter against that deck. If the opponent holds one of his wincondtion then that will mean you have likely just lost that game due to the carddisadvatage and tempo loss created by the Cap.

[reaperbong]

I just watched one game where a Shops player was able to cast and activate like 3 in a row, it was all quite humorous. Did you play it in a Shops build or what? I imagine it's a good solution against Tezzeret if you can get one off, without Time Vault and a robot in the library that's pretty much game over.

[Troy_Costisick]

I definately think that if Shop decks want to compete right now, maindecking Jester's Caps is a must.  It's way better than trying to run Null Rods and Chalices for that archetype.  There will come a time when maindecking isn't such a good idea, but for right now, it's brilliant IMHO.

Peace,

-Troy

[zeus-online]

I'd honestly rather buff up on ubamasks, smokestacks, chalices and crucibles before considering the cap...and even then i'd probably put in null rod before it.

While smokestack isn't all that good against combo, it's decent against control and aggro-control.
Ubamask has been a beating for almost every deck i've tested it against lately...often winning the game all by itself.

/Zeus

[neotrophy]

Jester's Cap is a card that I think is played pretty much exactly as much as it should be.  The issue with it is that it does not affect the state of the game as it stands, nor does it affect any card that the opponent has already drawn, or otherwise taken from their library.  So, while sometimes it can completely cripple a deck, particularly in the current environment, far too often it's a card that does nothing but affect some probabilities.

Still, it's not a terrible card, and it sees a little play, which I think it deserves.

[bluemage55]

If Skeletal Scrying is in that list, Intuition/AK should be on there too. Both are probably outclassed by Remora/Meditate right now, but in creature heavy metagames a good case could be made for Intu/AK and maybe Skeletal Scrying.

Intuition/AK is hardly underplayed.  We see it regularly in Top 8s.

Although Gorilla Shaman does see play, I think it's very much underplayed as well so he deserves a spot on the list too. The same goes for Mishra's Workshop and it's archetypes.

Same as above.  Gorilla Shaman is not an underplayed card.

I don't necessarily think the cards on bluemage55 list are all that viable right now. Basically he listed cards that see no play at all, but could be viable. Is that the purpose of the thread? That said, Thrumming Stone, Mind's Eye and Gamble just don't make the cut right now I think, although they might be cards that could surprise us with a totally new archetype built around them.

I think the problem might be that we're interpreting "underplayed" differently.  I've tried to put up cards that rarely (or rarely anymore) see Top 8 lists.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Infernal Tutor is at the top of my list for potential insanity. I've designed a deck where IT is just the absolut bawlz but the deck itself has overall consistancy issues. Basically Infernal Tutor is the best card to topdeck ever especially in combo where you go IT->Will->win after a fizzle. Doesn't work with draw-7s and forces a very low land count coupled with tons of 1-shot mana boosters though.

[neotrophy]

Completely agree, FlyFlySideOfFry.  Infernal Tutor is definitely a powerful card.  It's Demonic Tutor when you have no cards (and I can't think of a card I'd rather have than DT in those circumstances), and at worst it's a search for a component that's central enough to your deck that you decided to put 4 of it in.

The major issue is, of course, what sort of deck to put it in.  Most decks really quite enjoy having some cards in their hand, and the decks that most benefit from tutors, combo decks, like them more than most as they're after 1 big turn.  Couple that with the fact that combo decks in vintage tend to play a large percentage of restricted cards, and it's difficult to see what the home for IT is.

To make use of IT, you need to be able to use it in both of its modes, and I just can't see a vintage deck that wants to.

[bluemage55]

The thing about Infernal Tutor is that it's non-hellbent mode is actually quite bad.  The main reason tutors are good in Vintage is because they find broken restricted cards.

When you take that out of the picture, Infernal Tutor is often inferior to Night's Whisper.  Infernal Tutor is definitely strong when you have Hellbent (but most of the time that you do you're in trouble for any of the decks that might run it), but it's a subpar cantrip when you don't.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Completely agree, FlyFlySideOfFry.  Infernal Tutor is definitely a powerful card.  It's Demonic Tutor when you have no cards (and I can't think of a card I'd rather have than DT in those circumstances), and at worst it's a search for a component that's central enough to your deck that you decided to put 4 of it in.

The major issue is, of course, what sort of deck to put it in.  Most decks really quite enjoy having some cards in their hand, and the decks that most benefit from tutors, combo decks, like them more than most as they're after 1 big turn.  Couple that with the fact that combo decks in vintage tend to play a large percentage of restricted cards, and it's difficult to see what the home for IT is.

To make use of IT, you need to be able to use it in both of its modes, and I just can't see a vintage deck that wants to.

Well the deck I ran it in was pure combo with only 7-8 lands and all the accel possible with seething song and chrome mox. I also ran 4xEmpty the Warrens and the deck could cast either a lethal tendrils or win with warrens by turn 3 probably around 70-80% of the time, and turn 5 80-90%. Also post-warrens all it took was any tutor at all and I'd topdeck->tutor->will->win. My protection was 4xThoughtsieze+4xCabal Therapy and when the deck worked it REALLY worked like with protection and quickly but the other 10-20% I would either mulligan to death or keep a decent hand and end up drawing jank. I figured Ichorid did the job just as well and my deck was so will-centric that graveyard hate would have hurt me about as much as Ichorid unless I got lucky with a decent Warrens hand. At the very least Belcher was a better all-in deck.

Also I agree that it is terrible without hellbent.

[AmbivalentDuck]

With Brainstorm and Ponder restricted, Ideas Unbound may be *more* playable in combo-ish decks.  3 cards for UU is a bargain, especially since you can do things like playing any land/moxen you draw before the discard occurs at EOT.  Honestly, if it's ever playable I'd expect this to end up in some sort of blue-heavy high tide-ish combo or blue stax that expect to win immediately after casting it, or simply play everything drawn (and then Welder it back into play).

In either case, it's only playable in something highly proactive.

[InfectedMushroom]

It is an interesting card for sure, however the fact that it is a Sorcery and the UU casting cost really do prohibit it to a very specific deck. I'm sure something could be devised to abuse it with Welders, however I'm not sure it's better than other graveyard fillers.

[andrewpate]

Completely agree, FlyFlySideOfFry.  Infernal Tutor is definitely a powerful card.  It's Demonic Tutor when you have no cards (and I can't think of a card I'd rather have than DT in those circumstances), and at worst it's a search for a component that's central enough to your deck that you decided to put 4 of it in.

The major issue is, of course, what sort of deck to put it in.  Most decks really quite enjoy having some cards in their hand, and the decks that most benefit from tutors, combo decks, like them more than most as they're after 1 big turn.  Couple that with the fact that combo decks in vintage tend to play a large percentage of restricted cards, and it's difficult to see what the home for IT is.

To make use of IT, you need to be able to use it in both of its modes, and I just can't see a vintage deck that wants to.

Well the deck I ran it in was pure combo with only 7-8 lands and all the accel possible with seething song and chrome mox. I also ran 4xEmpty the Warrens and the deck could cast either a lethal tendrils or win with warrens by turn 3 probably around 70-80% of the time, and turn 5 80-90%. Also post-warrens all it took was any tutor at all and I'd topdeck->tutor->will->win. My protection was 4xThoughtsieze+4xCabal Therapy and when the deck worked it REALLY worked like with protection and quickly but the other 10-20% I would either mulligan to death or keep a decent hand and end up drawing jank. I figured Ichorid did the job just as well and my deck was so will-centric that graveyard hate would have hurt me about as much as Ichorid unless I got lucky with a decent Warrens hand. At the very least Belcher was a better all-in deck.

Also I agree that it is terrible without hellbent.

Infernal Tutor is much better in Legacy with Lion's Eye Diamond as a 4-of.  In that format, it's a key component in the top combo deck.  I can't imagine playing it without some way to consistently set it up aside from just expecting to clear my hand.  The last thing combo needs is to fizzle just from having one land too many.

[tito del monte]

One card I always wonder about is Peer Through Depths. I love that it digs five deep, even if unlike impulse you can only get a sorcery or instant. I feel like it should almost be playable in a TPS build if you could build one which focused more on sorcery/instant bombs than Necro/Bargain/Jar - perhaps running Enlightened Tutor which you could find with Peer Through Depths to find any of those three bombs.

Failing that, I seem to remember a while back there was a deck (maybe French?) that was a very heavy if not mono-blue storm deck. Not sure what it was called, but might be a good fit in there - along with Ideas Unbound. Maybe even Reset and High Tide... though that might be a bit wacky...

[Mantis]

I think the problem might be that we're interpreting "underplayed" differently.  I've tried to put up cards that rarely (or rarely anymore) see Top 8 lists.

Fair enough, I think we both agree that Intuition/AK and Gorilla Shaman are strong cards so there's no real need to argue there.

I definately think that if Shop decks want to compete right now, maindecking Jester's Caps is a must.  It's way better than trying to run Null Rods and Chalices for that archetype.  There will come a time when maindecking isn't such a good idea, but for right now, it's brilliant IMHO.

Perhaps I was a little too harsh on Jester's Cap, but let me explain why I think Cap is unworthy of maindeck space: I have always found it clunky and it really sucks if you invested all that tempo (mana + card(s)) to see that your opponent maindecks more than 3 winconditions. That means you have probably just lost the game as you spent the early turns resolving the Jesters Cap and activating the cap, instead of inhibiting your opponent's manasupply. If you didn't disrupt your opponent's mana that leaves you vunerable to Mana Drain or other busted plays. Cap also gets hit by Thorn and Sphere making it that much harder to cast. Not to mention MD Cap is a huge liability against aggro decks. All in all, it might be worthwhile to dedicate some SB slots to Caps, but in my metagame it's just not maindeck material (lots of aggro here).

[neotrophy]

Perhaps I was a little too harsh on Jester's Cap, but let me explain why I think Cap is unworthy of maindeck space: I have always found it clunky and it really sucks if you invested all that tempo (mana + card(s)) to see that your opponent maindecks more than 3 winconditions.   That means you have probably just lost the game as you spent the early turns resolving the Jesters Cap and activating the cap, instead of inhibiting your opponent's manasupply.

Or worse yet, to discover that they were just waiting to draw another ritual so that they could play the Will and Tendrils in their hand.  Or that they respond to the Cap activation with Gifts Ungiven and get all their win conditions out of harms way.  Or to have your next artifact drain, opening up a turn of Tezzeret + Vault, both in hand, because, as you say, you've been wasting time try to get cap online, rather than disrupting their ability to produce .

[reaperbong]

^^^^^^^^
lol, all on your first turn right?

For real though, if you're running 4x Shops with all your artifact acceleration and 4x Jester's Cap, and you go first, no reason you shouldn't be able to get a Cap off on your first or second turn. Unless you're really unlucky or just suck at mulligans, your opponent shouldn't have jack shit but a possible FoW to stop you.

[bluemage55]

One card I always wonder about is Peer Through Depths. I love that it digs five deep, even if unlike impulse you can only get a sorcery or instant. I feel like it should almost be playable in a TPS build if you could build one which focused more on sorcery/instant bombs than Necro/Bargain/Jar - perhaps running Enlightened Tutor which you could find with Peer Through Depths to find any of those three bombs.

It's strictly worse than Impulse.  There are many more situations in which you need to grab a mana source or non-instant/sorcery bomb to go off than in which you need to dig one card deeper.

Failing that, I seem to remember a while back there was a deck (maybe French?) that was a very heavy if not mono-blue storm deck. Not sure what it was called, but might be a good fit in there - along with Ideas Unbound. Maybe even Reset and High Tide... though that might be a bit wacky...

High Tide decks, which run Ideas Unbound, Cloud of Faeries, and Snap probably would't want to use Peer Through Depths because they can't afford to miss Cloud of Faeries or Fastbond, either of which are critical to comboing out.

[Lurker101]

Not to mention that High Tide is terrible in today's meta. A while ago I posted a high tide deck in the improvement forums and tested it and it just died to everything. It was too slow.

[Darkenslight]

I've always been curious about Jester's Scepter in a Shop build.  The fact that you can cast it off a single workshop is good, but the facts that it RFG the top 5 AND offers you the abilioty to counter seems to make this quite good of a card to use against the ultra-conssitent decks.

[bluemage55]

I've always been curious about Jester's Scepter in a Shop build.  The fact that you can cast it off a single workshop is good, but the facts that it RFG the top 5 AND offers you the abilioty to counter seems to make this quite good of a card to use against the ultra-conssitent decks.

The fact that it RFGs the top 5 cards of your opponent's library is almost never relevant.

The ability to counter is also negligible, given that (1)you need to leave non-Shop mana open, (2) the most important spells to counter tend to be restricted, and (3) on average 2 of the 5 cards will be mana sources.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Actually, Vroman tried it once.  He tried to build a 'bad' stax deck and brought it to a tourney.  You can probably find his tourney report here or on whatever forums the StL team is using right now.

Anyways, Jester's Scepter was suprisingly un-bad, but definitely didn't make it into his normal Uba build.

[CHOZO]

I don't know if it has been said yet, but Decree of Justice seems like a pretty good card. Why doesn't it see play anymore?

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I don't know if it has been said yet, but Decree of Justice seems like a pretty good card. Why doesn't it see play anymore?

1: because its white
2: it's cycle ability is rather mana intensive (not to mention h-casting it which no one really wants to do)
3: it doesn't have as easy a time synergizing with things as other cards
4: its worse than empty the warrnes because of reasons 1 and 2 and 3