What are the most powerful/viable cards that you think are underplayed?

[brianpk80]

I'd add Magus of the Unseen and Gilded Drake. 

[skrwbal]

seems like goblin charbelcher i being under used now that blue got hit hard and mox is un restricted on top of the fact that gutteral response, manamorphose, and street wraith are now in use.

[Xanthophobia22]

It is easy to dismiss any removal spell at the mana cost of "W" for example because swords to plowshares is so much better. Although I think that it is important to note certain circumstances that make bad cards good such as a run of popularity with deathmark in extended and legacy or how non-black targeted removal has plummeted lately for supposedly unseen reasons. But I digress... In this thread the intention is to examine a few specific examples of such cards and ponder on their lack of inclusion in a vintage environment.

SPELL SNARE
This is a card that has seen much success in legacy and extended mainly for the prominence of goyf-based strategies and to a lesser degree counterbalance based strategies. Really the only dead matchups for spell snare in the legacy enviorment is goblins and to a lesser degree stax. Enter vintage. When considering the importance placed on early game advantage and disruption it becomes clear that spell snare is very powerful in fact. Imagine you win the die roll and keep a modest hand, lets say: fetch,dark confidant,spell snare,tropical island,mana drain,gush,vampiric tutor. Now think of some of the most powerful plays in vintage: land, mox, bob; orchard, mox, oath of druids; Ancient Tomb, chalice one; Ancient tomb, sphere. With spell snare you are able to stop the aggressive start than defines some vintage decks and let your mana drain get online. Assuming you can draw a mox or land you are playing bob and tutoring recall for more advantage. Now I am not saying that situations like this are going to happen all the time, but it is worth considering that spell snare will become much stronger in the upcoming metagame. Sitting at the top are drain based decks, stax, more and more fish and goyf based win conditions, and a large number of oath decks. With only a 40% chance of having a force and blue card, you cannot always deal with these threats and with brainstorm restricted it is hard to dig for that force. This is a strong replacement for the reliance on brainstorm and ponder as the meta moves its focus from CC One to CC Two.

MANAMORPHOSE/BELCHER
Belcher is not unheard of by any stretch, but it should be reconsidered as a DTB in the current meta. With the power of manamorphose and the loss of brainstorm/ponder/merchant scroll force of will, as stated earlier, is down to a 40% chance. Now weigh that to a 40% chance of drawing either main deck blasts (which are popular in current belcher lists) and you have a recipe for success. I think that now belcher and Empty the Warrens based decks will be more powerful than storm based decks because they are more explosive and more reliable. Another point of interest is the unresriction of chrome mox. I don't know if this is better than moxes for a belcher list and my first instinct says no, but that is not really based on nothing.

RELIC OF PROGENITUS
I have not tested nor do i fully understand this card yet, however my first reaction is "better than tormod's crypt." As you can imagine it came to me as such a shock that most vintage players disagreed. I see it as a fundamental misunderstanding about vintage. THE GAME IS NOT OVER ON TURN 2 MOST TIMES! Being able to cycle it for 2 mana is not to be underestimated in a slower metagame. Also with more and more players looking to win with tarmogoyf beats, this card is a perfect silver bullet; waiting with a blocker no tarmogoyf will attack you, possibly stalling until you can combo or until you have your own goyf. Granted that versus an early yawgmoth's will, crypt is better when you need to tutor it up quick, but since it is never more than one anyways cant we all agree on 1x of each? I see no reason that you wouldn't need to remove a graveyard twice versus many decks and the "second crypt" is never truly dead so virtual space is the same.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@xanthophobia
spellsnare is my favorite hard count next to fow. I played it a lot in the gush meta with great success and have made a continuing attempt post bs restriction. Its really not as good as it once was, I've recently opted to play less of this underplayed card in the current meta, because it began to lose me games with a simple draw sell would not have. However, I could see is being used in SB.

[KingHeavy]

what about NIX, counter target free spell.  or FORK in storm/draw seven decks

or elephant graveyard, ha JK

[StringBean]

Oppression- enchantment - 1BB
Whenever a player plays a spell, that player discards a card.

I think this card has some real potential. It can be dropped easily first turn with a ritual and when used in combination with something like Aether vial and Bob it could do some great things.

Also, someone mentioned Sylvan Library which makes me think of Ohran Viper, its like a green Ophidian with death touch.  The downside being the GG in its casting cost, but with Library and (going out on a limb here) Magus of the Library I think it could be a pretty solid draw engine for green.  Add wastelands, goyfs, root maze and nullrod and i think it could work.

 

[Hellsing293]

I've been pondering how to build a deck around/featuring this card for a while:

Pox
Sorcery
BBB
Each player loses a third of his or her life, then discards a third of the cards in his or her hand, then sacrifices a third of the creatures he or she controls, then sacrifices a third of the lands he or she controls. Round up each time.

The deck would definantly have to accommodate the card's effects/mana cost.  I think a deck that turns this symmetrical effect into an advantage would net some good CA from this.  Note the rounding up factor, which means that it will hit 2 lands if they control 4 lands, 3 cards if they have 7, 1 creature if they have 1 etc.  The card may not be viable, but it definantly powerful.  Making the opponent (yes, and you) lose life, discard cards, sacrifice creatures, and sacrifice lands with one card is not something to be taken lightly.  Maybe some sort of suicide or control mono black deck could make use of this card.

[Lurker101]

I've been pondering how to build a deck around/featuring this card for a while:

Pox
Sorcery
BBB
Each player loses a third of his or her life, then discards a third of the cards in his or her hand, then sacrifices a third of the creatures he or she controls, then sacrifices a third of the lands he or she controls. Round up each time.

The deck would definantly have to accommodate the card's effects/mana cost.  I think a deck that turns this symmetrical effect into an advantage would net some good CA from this.  Note the rounding up factor, which means that it will hit 2 lands if they control 4 lands, 3 cards if they have 7, 1 creature if they have 1 etc.  The card may not be viable, but it definantly powerful.  Making the opponent (yes, and you) lose life, discard cards, sacrifice creatures, and sacrifice lands with one card is not something to be taken lightly.  Maybe some sort of suicide or control mono black deck could make use of this card.

I agree, I would also like to add that Channel seems horribly underplayed for how powerful it is and I'm also sticking to my guns when it comes to Parallel Thoughts+ cheap Draw7s (Timetwister, wheel of fortune, Diminishing Returns and sometimes Windfall) as being an underplayed combo (tutor for 7? come on!)

[bluemage55]

I'm also sticking to my guns when it comes to Parallel Thoughts+ cheap Draw7s (Timetwister, wheel of fortune, Diminishing Returns and sometimes Windfall) as being an underplayed combo (tutor for 7? come on!)

At 8 mana and 2 cards, why not just play Painter + Grindstone or Tezzeret + Time Vault (both of which do not cost UUU or UUR)?

[Troy_Costisick]

Cursecatcher is seeing a lot of play now.  This list certainly brought it to my attention.

[Beatdown]

I searched that current list and i think unearth has a lot of potential. I have been trying to break it for a while, but I just don't know... I mean fulminator mage makes a pretty juicy target, along with bob and goyf.

[the boogie man]

You could play it in a dawn of the dead-type build. then you could also potentially bring back cannonist, sculler, or even things like terravore, fulminator mage, faerie macabre or aven mindscensor.

[Metman]

Forget playing Unearth for crappy stone rains why not go for the gusto and get countered Phyrexian Dreadnoughts.  Play them with Trickbinds and you have nearly uncounterable 12/12 tramplers. 

[Clint_NZ]

One card I have found to be good but have not seen in a list before is Dead//Gone.

I have been using this as a singleton main and am loving the flexability.

It kills Welders, Bobs etc etc and can bounce DSC or Hellkite (not so good against Akroma)

[Dr.KnowMaD]

Shhh.. don't be spilling all the beans about unearth.

Krosan Grip see to much play?  If not its MVP a lot of the times I play with it.  If so than there a few things on the list that see plenty of play. (I'm looking at you Teeg, cursecatcher)


As for the most underrated/unused power cards I'd say the more recently unrestricted poor moxen.   

[Tha Gunslinga]

Reanimate>Unearth
by a large margin

Thoughtseizing and Reanimating a creature is insane.

[madmanmike25]

Unearth -> Priest of Gix is janky fun...but still jank.

A card that I honestly believe has some serious potential is Sylvan Library.  It can *almost* be similar in function to Bob for green based decks.  Or maybe 4 Confidants and 2 Libraries in a Goyf based deck??  I have been testing a few Libraries in the SB for my Belcher decks when I have to slow things down a bit...great vs. Stax btw because u couldn't care less about the life loss(its also a perm) and Library really shines if you have reshuffle effects, such as Land Grant.  I don't see more than 2 being a really good idea though.

Another card that I would like to do more testing with is Diabolic Intent.  But god, how I loathe playing with Kobolds....

Mike

[Dr.KnowMaD]

I wouldn't say the margin is that big.  Being a fan of Reanimate and playing one for a long time (before tendrils) I think it is probably all around better but in a build made for Unearth I think it can be superior.  If nothing else only cause of the ability to cycle itself.

Ever try to get through a Unearth/Eternal Witness combo with no trample/flying ex.. ?  Looking at you Tarmogoyf.

I have always liked Sylvan Library for green.  It draws cards, what can I say.

Dr.KnowMaD

Stealing peoples stuff is always fun, at least when its me doing the stealing.

[arctic79]

@Lurker101

Pox has potential.  I run it alot in Legacy, only a few times in Vintage.
The bones of the deck are:
Pox
Smallpox
Hymm to Tourach
Duress (thoughtsieze is a no go here)
The Rack (kill method#1)
Chimeric Idol (kill method #2)
Innocent Blood (it's cheap, and essentially one sided)
Lilaana En Vess (totally the bomb as a 2 of, doesn't take long to get here utimate)
N. Disk
Sinkhole
Tutors
Rituals

That's the basics of it, I'm sure you can fill in the rest.  The key is to Pox early and Pox often for the deck to be effective.  I've also ran Dash hopes and Imps mischief as very good control cards in Vintage.  The Imp's Mischief shines when you can hi-jack an ancestral.

[Lurker101]

What do you guys think about Ideas Unbound?

Also, I updated the master list to include the newer suggestions and cross out a few that are too weak.

[bluemage55]

What do you guys think about Ideas Unbound?

Ideas Unbound makes most sense in a High Tide type deck.  The reason it doesn't see much play is because High Tide doesn't see much play.

If metagame factors make High Tide a good idea, you'll see Ideas Unbound out there with it.  That said, Ideas Unbound is unplayable in any of the current Tier 1 decks.

Also, I updated the master list to include the newer suggestions and cross out a few that are too weak.

You still haven't crossed out a lot of weak ideas, which includes most of the list.  You need to seriously take mana costs and blatantly superior alternatives into consideration.

Urza's Guilt + Megrim + Dream Salvage is crap.  A three card combo that doesn't end the game is a waste; you might as well just play Painter.

Niv-Mizzet + Curiosity shouldn't be reanimated; it works much better with Oath.  The problem is that with either scenario, the alternatives are much better: Dragon makes for a superior reanimation deck, and there are better creatures to Oath out.

[Lurker101]

I crossed out a few more of the weaker spells and added a few to the bottom of the list.

[bluemage55]

I crossed out a few more of the weaker spells and added a few to the bottom of the list.

You still have Null Profusion, Parallel Thoughts, amd Final Fortune up, despite valid arguments to the contrary.

All of the specific two and three card combos are unplayable, as they are blatantly inferior to existing game-ending two card combos.

You also need to take down several cards that already see plenty of play: Strategic Planning, Unmask, Gorilla Shaman, Darkblast, Mind Twist, Mishra's Factory, and Life from the Loam.

Here's a much better streamlined list without the junk (in alphabetical order):

Viable Underplayed Cards

Balance
Chains of Mephistopheles
Commandeer
Cunning Wish
Demonic Consultation
Fire/Ice
Gamble
Gilded Drake
Land Tax
Lim-Dul's Vault
Magus of the Unseen
Manamorphose
Mind's Eye
Mox Diamond
Rite of Flame
Thrumming Stone

Viable Underplayed Combos

Avarice Totem + Culling Scales + Rings of Brighthearth
Basalt Monolith + Rings of Brighthearth + Umbral Mantle
Time Vault + Umbral Mantle
Impulse + Panoptic Mirror + Savor the Moment + Serra Sphinx

[Troy_Costisick]

I'd submit also:

Mana Short
Mana Web
Meltdown
Oblivion Ring

I've been messing aroung with Mana Web.  It's got some interesting synergies with colorless lands (like Shop, Tomb, etc) and can cause an opponent to tap out when he doesn't want to.  Mana Short is something like a Time Walk against non-aggro decks if you play it on their upkeep.  Meltdown is an awesome artifact hoser if you're prepared to live with the symetry of it.  Oblivion Ring is a little mana intensive for Vintage, but it's solide against Angel Oath.  Just a few more to add to your list

Peace,

-Troy

[bluemage55]

Mana Short is something like a Time Walk against non-aggro decks if you play it on their upkeep. 

It also requires 3 mana, and allows your opponent to respond while you're probably tapped out.  Strictly inferior to Chant, which isn't even a top notch spell except for decks (like PArfait) which can't play other forms of disruption such as Force or Duress.

I've been messing aroung with Mana Web.  It's got some interesting synergies with colorless lands (like Shop, Tomb, etc) and can cause an opponent to tap out when he doesn't want to.

Or you just play Tangle Wire, which functionally does the same thing for a Shop deck but better.
 

Meltdown is an awesome artifact hoser if you're prepared to live with the symetry of it.

It's not the symmetry I'm not prepared to live with.  It's the mana cost.  In order to get the mana required to blow up relevant artifacts, you're either going to have to wait until too late in the game, or you're going to have to destroy much of your own moxen.  Inferior to Rack and Ruin, Shattering Spree, and/or Mox Monkey, depenging on the matchup.

Oblivion Ring is a little mana intensive for Vintage, but it's solide against Angel Oath.

Rarely would this be better than a bounce spell. 

Against Angel Oath in particular, I'd rather have StP, which both doesn't get shut off by bounce and is likely to come out fast enough to buy you that critical turn.  The mana cost doesn't seem to justify the flexibility of this card.

[arctic79]

Avarice Totem is one of my all time Favorite Pet Deck Cards.  It has amazing synergy with Trinket Mage, Tel-Jilad Stylus, Gilded Drake.  I would not call it Tier 1 by any means but it is fun and drives opponents nuts when you steal something then use the Stylus to put Totem back into your deck.

*A note on Stylus, it also has amazing synergy with Stasis giving you an untap phase*

[Troy_Costisick]

 

Meltdown is an awesome artifact hoser if you're prepared to live with the symetry of it.

It's not the symmetry I'm not prepared to live with.  It's the mana cost.  In order to get the mana required to blow up relevant artifacts, you're either going to have to wait until too late in the game, or you're going to have to destroy much of your own moxen.  Inferior to Rack and Ruin, Shattering Spree, and/or Mox Monkey, depenging on the matchup.

Now that's just not accurate at all.  For 1 red mana you can wipe out every Moxen on the board along with artifact lands, Crypt, and Chalice.  Way more effecient than Spree.  For 1R, you can get all that plus Sol Ring, Key, Needle, Vial, Grindstone, and Mana Vault.  For the same CC as Rack and Ruin, you can blow up Canonist, Null Rod, Time Vault (obviously if it's tapped), and Capsule.  For 3R, which is admittidly high for a card in Vintage but, you can destroy Master of Etherium, Crucible, SoFI, Trinisphere, Painter, and Metalworker which is way more than Mox Monkey could ever hope to.  Meltdown isn't a widely played power card, but that's not the point of this thread.  It's to explore cards that are underplayed in hopes that we might stumble on something that would fit in a deck.

[Lurker101]

I added meltdown and quicken to the main list.

[bluemage55]

Now that's just not accurate at all.  For 1 red mana you can wipe out every Moxen on the board along with artifact lands, Crypt, and Chalice.  Way more effecient than Spree.  For 1R, you can get all that plus Sol Ring, Key, Needle, Vial, Grindstone, and Mana Vault.  For the same CC as Rack and Ruin, you can blow up Canonist, Null Rod, Time Vault (obviously if it's tapped), and Capsule.  For 3R, which is admittidly high for a card in Vintage but, you can destroy Master of Etherium, Crucible, SoFI, Trinisphere, Painter, and Metalworker which is way more than Mox Monkey could ever hope to.

You're missing the fact that you're never going to get a crap ton of targets like you suggest.  Meltdown is never more efficient than Mox Monkey, Spree, or Rack and Ruin except in improbably, bizarre situations.

There is no matchup in which Meltdown would be a superior choice more than a tiny percentage of the time.  Workshop doesn't just drop a whole bunch of 3 cc artifacts and let you build up to 4 mana.  Rather, said artifacts are going to either lock you down or kill you long before you can cast Meltdown for 3.  Nor are you likely to run into situations where (a) your opponnent drops a ton of 0cc artifacts (but note, not Chalice for 1) and (b) Mox Monkey wouldn't kill them fast enough anyway, and leave you with a Mox Monkey still on the board afterward.

Meltdown isn't a widely played power card, but that's not the point of this thread.  It's to explore cards that are underplayed in hopes that we might stumble on something that would fit in a deck.

The point of this thread, as the title suggests, is to explore powerful and viable cards that are underplayed.  Cards that are strictly inferior to the alternatives are neither powerful nor viable.

[nineisnoone]

Serenity
 Cost:      
Card Type:    Enchantment
P/T:    
Rules Text (Oracle):    At the beginning of your upkeep, destroy all artifacts and enchantments. They can't be regenerated.

Seeds of Innocence
Cost:      
Card Type:    Sorcery
P/T:    
Rules Text (Oracle):    Destroy all artifacts. They can't be regenerated. The controller of each artifact destroyed this way gains life equal to its converted mana cost.

Though stacks would gain a lot of life after that.