[Deck Discussion]: Hide and Seek Control (BWR)

[Nehptis]

Hide and Seek Control (BWR)

Why Now?
As I am still trying to find my way in this new Vintage realm I started to ponder non-Tier 1 decks that might be effective in a new meta. One such deck that has always intrigued me or annoyed me (when I played against it) was Hide and Seek Control.  Being a life-long Island junky this is a bit unfamiliar territory for me.  I have always played decks like Storm Combo, Gifts, Oath, MUC, etc., in tourneys.  But, I think it's time to try something new.  I thought I remembered seeing a primer or at least a thread on this way back when.  But, couldn't locate one at this time.  Please post the links if you find them.

I won't get into too much detail in this section.  However, I hope I will explain adequately below that this deck has the potential to favorably compete in this new meta.  There are still decks with low #'s of win conditions in the meta which this deck thrives off due to it's Namesake spell.  Also, it's lean and agile which allows it to be effective against a lot of different decks.  Although it uses 3 colors it is able to maintain a stable basic-land supported mana base.  So, it doesn't roll to Waste effects.  Exalteds are beefy enough to establish a medium clock.  But, their life gain ability gives the deck a staying factor against faster decks.

How Does the Deck Work?
I think most people are aware of this deck at some level.  The deck is not very complicated.  Basically, it's a non-blue Control Deck.  It can't counter spells. So, it instead controls the game by attacking the opponent's, hand, graveyard and of course library.  It also uses board control spells to keep things in check as best it can.  The deck draws cards and searches with obvious spells like Bob, Top and Tutors.  It can win with slow Bob / Shaman beats if it establishes enough control.  However, its main aggro threat is Exalted Angel.  But, Hide // Seek can also be a win condition against decks that rely on low #'s of their own win conditions.

The starting point (main deck discussion).  A list from Cullen Cox:
Maindeck (60 cards):
Lands (18):
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Flooded Strand
3 Plains
3 Plateau
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp

Fast Mana (5):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring

Draw / Search / Will (12):
4 Dark Confidant
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

"Control" (23):
4 Duress
4 Hide // Seek
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Orim's Chant
1 Extirpate
1 Balance
1 Moat
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt

Kill (2):
2 Exalted Angel

My immediate changes / updates
-1 Swords to Plowshares:  Creatures are still prevalent enough to keep in some STPs.  However, I think 4 creates too many dead draws.  Plus, I wanted a spot for a 2nd Extirpate.
+1 Extirpate:  I feel that 2 is a good number.  The card is very effective at disrupting a lot of deck's strategies and even crippling others.
-2 Duress: Why limit yourself to a single discard effect when you can use 2.  Thoughtseize and Duress together are optimal IMO.
+2 Thoughtseize: Hitting a creature like Welder or Bob or whatever else is worth Seizing warrants the inclusion of at least 2 Seizes.

Deck Analysis
I'm just getting into some more heavy testing of the deck.  So, I don't have all the plays worked out.  But, it's not overly complex of a build or a play strategy.

Mana:
The land base seems solid so far.  It has a good mixture of fetch, basics and duals.  The number of lands seems to be functional.  It isn't overly susceptible to Wastes or Extirpates.  The Fetches shuffle for Top.  The Moxes are all on color.  Lotus allows for acceleration and color balancing.  Sol Ring could be Mana Crypt.  But, too early to tell.

Draw / Search / Will:
Bob + Top is a good engine for this deck.  The relatively low CC of spells prevents Bob-Deaths.  It uses the best available Tutors except for Grim.  Yawgwill isn't a stellar game breaking play in this deck.  But, late in the game re-occurring some Control spells or an Angel if need be isn't a bad plan.  The Tops do their thing and are enhanced by Bob.

Control:
This is where it gets interesting for you and annoying for your opponent.  I won't comment on the obvious spells like Duress / Seize, Crypt, etc.  But, some of the more interesting spells are discussion worthy.

The namesake card, Hide // Seek.  I've always loved the effect of Extract.  So much so that I have 4 Foil Extracts (but rarely use them).  Seek is even more fun.  Granted it costs more.  But, the ability to disrupt your opponent's plan and gain life from the experience is priceless.  Well, not priceless, it's WB.  Hide is equally as fun.  However, it's just less used of an effect.  But, if there is a nasty enchantment or artifact in your way, this does the job.

Orim's Chant, such a cool card.  It's pretty damn close to a White Timewalk.  It essentially has 3 functions here.  Either to buy you time to establish more control.  Give you an extra "turn" of Angel beats while your opponent is essentially neutered for a turn.  Or of course using it as a means to ensure that your next spell will resolve.  These effects are so good that it is tempting to find room for Chant's cousin Abeyance.

Balance, very rarely played in Vintage.  But, it's on the restricted list for a reason.  If the opportunity arises when either the conditions are right by your own doing or by the opponent's, a timely Balance can effectively lock-down the game for you or swing it back in your favor.

Moat, seriously?  Yes, it is perfect in this build because it doesn't affect your Angels and it slows the game down.  Faster aggro decks or Shop type decks with big beats are stopped in their tracks when this hits the board until they can bounce/destroy it if they have the means to.  The Tutors allow you to find it fast if needed.

The Kill:
It is possible to kill with Bob / Shaman.  But, it's not often enough to care about.  Mostly the deck wants to resolve a morphed Angel and gain life, keep control, and then swing FTW.  I actually am considering upping to 3 Angels because they are so critical to winning.  Ironically, this deck that thrives off Decks with few win-conditions due to Hide // Seek has really only 2 win conditions itself.  I'm not worried about mirror matches.  And, fortunately Seek responds the same way to MisDirect affects as Duress does.  But, I do like to see an Angel by turn 3.
 
Concerns:
COTV at 0, 1 or 2.  Yes, they hurt.  But, there are Main Deck answers to them.  Rack and Ruin, Seal of Cleansing, Gorilla Shaman, Engineered Explosives, Hide.
Counter Magic.  You have to use your Duress/Seizes and Chants strategically.  This deck can't afford to have a key spell countered.

Bounce / Removal.  This is another hurdle.  Resolving an Angel doesn't mean you get to use it.  If given the opportunity then obviously Duressing away a bounce/removal spell is ideal.  But, that doesn't happen too often.  So, I'm at a loss for how to hedge against Bounce spells.  Any ideas?

Not Drawing Matches.  This needs to be a concern for this deck.  Being control based with a low win condition count, it is very possible that matches could take too long and you can be drawing instead of winning.

Other Card Considerations
Abeyance - I love the effect. Similar to Chant, but repaces itself with a draw.  If I could find room I would.
Night's Whisper - Definitely, a MD consideration.  Right now the Bob plan works fine though.
Aven Mindcensor - A very powerful effect.  And very much a consideration.  However, it just seems more like Fish than Hide//Seek Control.
Jotun Grunt - A very powerful creature.  And very much a consideration.  Again, it just seems more like Fish than Hide//Seek Control.
True Believer - A SB consideration if the deck performs poorly against Storm.  But, with all the bounce around these days it doesn't seem too great of a choice.
Kataki, War's Wage - A SB consideration.  Main deck inclusion would not be synergetic with Top.  Also, it makes the deck more of a Fish build.
Wasteland/Strip/Crucible of Worlds - I like the control aspect of it.  But, it would hinder the 3 color mana base IMO.
Man-Lands - Possibly, but doubtful if they would add any benefits to the deck.  Could disrupt the 3 Color base too much.
Mind Twist - No Drain / No Ritual makes this very unappealing.
Skeletal Scrying - Although more appealing than Twist, sans Drain/Ritual, it still is inferior to Bob / Top in this deck.
Cranial Extraction - Nice effect. But just too mana intensive for this build.
Leyline of the Void - If the Crypts don't work out then this is the obvious next SB choice.
Shattering Spree - Definitely a consideration and possibly a replacement / enhancement to the Rack and Ruins.
Lotus Petal - Maybe for more mana balancing and accelaration.
Vexing Shusher - The 2 RR CC is tough.  But, the R ability would be great vs. Blue Control.

Newer card set considerations?

Sideboard also from Cullen Cox:
I don't want to spend too much time on this yet.  Nothing ground breaking here.  But, the 3 color base allows for a lot of flexibility in the side.

Sideboard: (15 cards)
3 Diabolic Edict - Helps in the Oath matchup if SSS is played.  Also, handles DSC.  3 might be too many.
2 Disenchant - Oath, artifacts, etc.  You know the drill.
2 Extirpate - 2 in the main might be enough.  4 is too many.  So I may cut this entirely from the board or go -1.
2 Pithing Needle - Excellent right now for Welders, Waste/Strip, Bazaar, even Bargain.
2 Rack and Ruin - Enhances the Shop matchups and COTV hate.
3 Red Elemental Blast - Enhances the Blue matchups.
1 Tormod's Crypt - More GY hate is never bad in Vintage.

Matchups
At this time I have limited information for this section.  I will update it as I gather more info.  So, most of it will be speculation until I can test further.

Storm Combo (Drain, Bob, IT Tendrils, GLong etc)
I'd say good not great matchup which gets slightly more favorable post Sideboard.  An early Duress/Seize followed by an Extirpate on a key spell should neuter your opponent enough for you to start beating with an Angel.  2 swings with the Angel should be enough to put your life beyond Storm's ability to recover.  Also, although many Storm decks are running TOA in multiples hitting 1 copy with Seek is very disruptive to them.

Slaver
No doubt Slaver is the deck to beat right now.  This is no easy matchup.  However, H//S Control has a enough tools to give Slaver a run for its money.  The STPs keep Trisk in control since it will destroy your Bob engine or Kill you.  STP, Explosives and Crypt can control Welder.  Also, Moat is no picnic either, unless they run Triskev for some reason.  Try not to get Slavered though.  Although again you can't be Seeked!

Aggro Shop / Stax
I'd say 50/50.  Rack and Ruin and Moat are your best tools here.  Other than that, use your control and disruption as effectively as possible and swing, swing, swing.

Fish
They have more creatures than you and of course Blue based control.  The trick here is play smart and don't run into their counters.  If they play Grunt you should be OK due to the STPs.  Eventually you will gain life back if you resolve an Angel.

Oath
This match does look too bad on paper either.  Hide // Seek is double duty against Oath.  Plus you have STP.  If it is ICBM Oath, COTV will pose a problem.  But, a well timed RnR should save the day.

Ichorid
No idea.  Chant, Moat, etc. should be the formula for success here.  But, TBD.

Thanks for reading and please let's discuss!

[nineisnoone]

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=34971.90

Not exactly the same thing, but a lot of the Dawn of the Dead variants run Hide/Seek.  Just something to look at.

I'm not good at mana bases, but 6 basics seems like too much.  Most decks I run just run 1 or 2 basics and they always end up annoying the hell out of me (by not being both colors I mean).

Not sure about Exalted as the win.  Slower than 'Goyf and likely equal to smaller in size.  Of course, there are times where Exalted is better, but I guess I don't think overall it's worth it.  But then you have to off your 3 color mana base.

If you are really using red, I'd just up the number of Shamans and run Jitte and call that a win.  And trade Duress for Thoughtseize for a little bit of help against aggro.  Do you really need red?  I just don't think the red splash adds anything, and having the ability to Seek MD seems like an afterthought.

What are the Chant's for?  I know what they do, I just don't see them as good here.

[senpai]

magus of the moon could be potent.

and i truly dont see any need for enlightened tutor or orams chants. you could try some null rods maybe. or jittes.

that could help.

and if you plan to stay to the angels for a win condition, i agree that upping the count could be useful.

also, why not pyroclasm instead of moat? its cheaper, easier to cast, and more of a definate answer even if it kills some of your dudes too.

[zeus-online]

How does this deck have any game vs. Drain.deck ?

If your confidant gets countered or destroyed you're pretty much stuck with your draw phase vs. their draw-engine.

I just don't see the advantage over drain decks, so why would i play this deck?

/Zeus

[samurai_socks]

Deleted.

[Zombie Shakespeare]

Holy crap! How'd I miss this thread.

I'm glad to see an interest in Hide & Seek Control in the new metagame. Here's the original primer I wrote on the deck. The decklist Nehptis posted in the original thread is the most recent version I have sleeved up though admittedly it might need some tuning. A lot of the issues and card choices raised regarding the deck are addressed in the primer but I'll try my best to address them in broad strokes.

Other/More Creatures - It was always my intent to create a control deck rather than an aggro-control deck like Fish or a more focused aggro deck such as the Bazaar-based lists that some have posted. Many of the creatures already mentioned were considered and tested at various points in the deck's development but I never found any that proved to be as good as what I was running.

Aven Mindcensor's effect was good but was something most players could bait out or play around once they realized you ran them.

Magus of the Moon counteracts the deck's fetchlands which in combination with Divining Top were something I felt was more important to the deck's strategy.

Jotun Grunt's effect was too slow versus the decks it was good against and could easily be played around. I'd essentially have to have him online by turn two to have him worthwhile and given the limited slots available I didn't think he'd be worthwhile.

True Believer does nothing to prevent a combo player from upping their storm count or bouncing it once they're ready to win.

Kataki was also too slow and could be played around. I feel the instants (Rack & Ruin, Hide, Disenchant) the deck runs offer more options in games against a wider variety of decks. Tormod's Crypt & Extirpate also help negate Goblin Welder's impact on the game.


Additional Mana Acceleration (Petal, Crypt, off-color moxes) - I wanted to make my mana base rock solid first and foremost in order to keep up with the rest of the decks in the meta game. Earlier versions ran Mana Crypt which was excellent at helping to power out an early angel but I wanted to minimize the damage against a Chalice played for 0 and Null Rod. Having an opening hand with only a land and Lotus Petal in particular I found to be really annoying.


Swords to Plowshares as a four-off - This can certainly be adjusted based on the field you expect to play in but I am happy with having four. Against the matchups where you want them, you want to see as many as possible. In games where its unnecessary you have to do your best with your mulligans and use of Sensei's Divining Top to draw more important cards for the matchup.

Shattering Spree over Rack & Ruin - With red being the deck's splash color it makes Shattering Spree a little more difficult to use to its full potential. Being a Sorcery hampers the deck's ability to react to an opponent's play as Rack & Ruin allows.

Enlightened Tutor - Certainly the weakest tutor but given that many of its targets are one-ofs (or two-ofs after sideboarding) being able to find a key card right when you need it is huge. I have won many a game with ET and a Top on the board. And it certainly doesn't hurt as an additional shuffle effect in combination with Top.

Orim's Chant - This slot originally was occupied by Cabal Therapy. Therapy was always there as a means to force another card through behind it against control decks and disrupt other decks early. Against combo Therapy was a crap shoot. They run so many one-ofs that it was hard to nail any of their key spells. The fact that I was running so few creatures made the flashback portion of it rarely useful and the slot eventually replaced by Chant. Orim's Chant plays the same role against control decks but has the added bonus of stopping my opponent's combat phase or stunting my opponent's storm count. Chant can also prevent a huge Yawgmoth's Will from happening and take away from the explosiveness of a draw-7.

Leyline of the Void - I know I'm going to get a lot of heat for this one but I do not feel that Leyline of the Void is an ideal card to be played in this deck. Here's why: the deck's clock is too slow and I have no means of protecting it. A blue deck has counter magic to defend it and an aggro deck or prison deck can either win or lock up the opponent before they are able to draw the cards to deal with Leyline. My deck relys on Tormod's Crypt, Extirpate & Pithing Needle to deal with graveyard related strategies. All of which are more versatile and can be easily played after turn zero.

magus of the moon could be potent.

and i truly dont see any need for enlightened tutor or orams chants. you could try some null rods maybe. or jittes.

that could help.

and if you plan to stay to the angels for a win condition, i agree that upping the count could be useful.

also, why not pyroclasm instead of moat? its cheaper, easier to cast, and more of a definate answer even if it kills some of your dudes too.

Magus, Enlightened Tutor and Orim's Chant are explained above. I don't think Null Rod would be a good choice for a control deck based around Sensei's Divining Top. In an aggro deck sure but not here. Jitte is great for aggro decks as well with more creatures than what this deck runs.

Moat proactively stops all land based creatures from attacking where Pyroclasm might fall short even if they don't draw any other creatures. DSC, Sundering Titan, Trike, most Tarmogoyfs and Zombie tokens (with haste) don't care about Pyroclasm. Additionally most decks where Moat is good don't have ways to deal with enchantments (at least not maindeck).

How does this deck have any game vs. Drain.deck ?

If your confidant gets countered or destroyed you're pretty much stuck with your draw phase vs. their draw-engine.

I just don't see the advantage over drain decks, so why would i play this deck?

/Zeus

What this deck lacks in a draw engine it makes up for in threats that must be countered or played around. Ideally you'd keep or mulligan into a playable hand multiple Duress/Thoughtseize, Hide/Seek, Chants (or tutors that grab those) and the mana to have them online by turn two. Leading with Duress/Thoughtseize, Seek, and/or Chant should help in resolving a Bob behind it. And there's always Top to help insure your draws are the best they can be.

There's no real advantage to this deck over a Drain deck. It may catch a few players off guard as its not main stream enough to know how to play against it. It possibly has a little better game 1 versus Ichorid but that's negligible. In the end its about personal preference and how you want to play the game.

//Edit: added reply to Senpai's questions.
//Edit#2:  grammar.

[Nehptis]

ZS answered the open questions.  So, no need to re-answer them.  Instead let's get into some deck analysis.

How many Duress / Thoughtseize?
Is it 4 Duress, 0 Seize? 4 Seize 0 Duress, 2 and 2?  Or is it possibly more than 4 total, meaning something like 4 Seize, 2 Duress?  Minimally I think we need to start with the 2 by 2 plan.

How many Swords to Plowshares?
I think 3 is the correct #.  4 is just too many unless you know that you are facing no combo and all aggro.  Even though combo can have DSC, we still have the H/Ss and the Moat.

How many Orim's Chant?  What about Abeyance?
I think this has to be upped to 4 Chants.  It's such a powerful effect in ensuring that your next spell resolves that we must have 4.  Can we find room for Abeyance?  I'm thinking 2.  But, the list is so tight that I find it difficult to cut anything.

How many Extirpate?
I think this has to be 2.  One is not enough and 3 or 4 just show up too early and can be Duressed away.

Gorilla Shaman, in or out?
It is great at eating Moxes of course.  But, it can also eat a pesky COTV at 1 or 2.  The problem of course is that if the Monkey isn't already in play then he ain't getting by COTV at 1!  With that I think we have plenty of other answers to COTV and other nasty artifacts like Null Rod that the Monkey would handle.  Since we aren't playing a Stip/Waste plan then I don't see the benefit of a Monkey being in here for the Mox munchies either.  I say we cut it.

How many Exalted Angels?  I really want to see this card by turn 3.  It's as simple as that.  So, are 2 Angels plus the tutors, tops, Bobs enough?  Or do we need 3 Angels to ensure we get 1 in hand by turn 3?