TheManaDrain.com
November 19, 2025, 10:38:35 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Dans Blog  (Read 12782 times)
AngryPheldagrif
Basic User
**
Posts: 551


It's funny because I'm better than you!

HunterKiller403
View Profile Email
« on: July 07, 2008, 03:31:01 am »

I requested a blog access from Zherbus because I wanted to talk about several topics that I feel won't be best served in the Open forums. I recognize that they may be controversial to some and old news to others. That being said, I invite all to be as critical or positive as they should desire. I wanted this here in order to bring a higher level of discussion so by all means speak your mind.

#1: Hypothetically speaking, how theory (and the lack there-of) is destroying Vintage

If you've ever done a draft of any sort, you know the importance of keeping an open mind. You have to be prepared to draft whatever archetype or combination of colors is most open in the packs passed to you. You might prefer UB Faeries, but opening a Cloudgoat Ranger can put you on the other side of the color wheel in a second. Similarly, adaption is simply a requirement in T2, as the format sees major upheaval every 4 months. Block changes even faster, and Extended, while not as constant, gets turned on its head every other year.

Yet Eternal is, more or less, eternal. Vintage sees perhaps one or two playables per set, with a couple past exceptions such as the paradigm shifts brought by Urza and Mirrodin blocks, and the occasional toss-up via (un)restriction. Things evolve, but radical change is not the way of things. The lifespans of decks in Vintage are often years and years, simply adapting as they go until crippled by obsolescence or restriction.

So go the decks, so tend to go the players. We once had Rakso and Keeper. Now we have Menendian and GrimLong. With a greatly slowed pace of change as well as a lack of monetary motivation to do so (no Pro Tours or Grand Prix), Vintage has polarized and factionalized far beyond most peoples' realization. On a political spectrum, with Limited being revolutionary and Standard being liberal, Vintage is the far-right reactionary element. We are the religious wackjobs of (ostensibly) competitive Magic.

In fact, the comparison to religious wackjobs is disturbingly accurate on a number of levels. How many terrible deck ideas have been defended on this forum and others in the name of 'embracing innovation?' The cry of "why are you stifling innovation?" sounds eerily familiar to the now comical cries of "why do you hate freedom?" that have been heard in political discourse. In other formats a deck might require hundreds of games of testing against a complete format gauntlet (and a competent test-pilot) in order to be considered even remotely viable for tournament play. Yet how many times have 10 game sample sets or isolated tournament anecdotes been used to defend Vintage monstrosities? Every deck creator claims expertise and this 'expertise' is cited as unimpeachable evidence of his claims of the deck's power. This twisted circular logic is prevalent across the Vintage boards.

The players, of course, are just as guilty personally as community-wise, as stroking one's ego seems to be the primary occupation of quite a few posters. It is amusing to see how many self-proclaimed 'experts' Vintage has. Quite possibly more than any other format, which is impressive considering T1 has around 1% of the player base as Standard. Worst of these are those claiming to be authoritative on a particular subject by grace of having played a deck for a long time. Piloting the same deck over and over no more makes you an expert than solving basic multiplication thousands of times makes you a math genius.

On the note of player problems, two in particular stand out as offenders. I would call these the first two of Vintage's deadly sins.

Deck name and creation debate. Nothing seems to get the community's blood boiling like a good argument over this. Even being specifically banned by the site rules doesn't seem to slow such debates down. Smmenen versus Eric Becker over GrimLong was particularly amusing recently. Why is this such a crime? Because it accomplishes absolutely nothing. There is NO prize to posting the best deck. If someone netdecks your list and wins a tournament, you gain nothing substantive out of it. It frightens me how people will get up in arms over something that means zero.

Simple stroking of the Vintage e-cock. I can sum up how I react to this in only one way:


The sad part is, of course, that the vast majority of us are guilty of it in one way or another. It is only natural to want to be the best, but the fact of the matter is that the number of Vintage players with resumes comparable to what qualifies one as a pro in any other format is probably in the single digits. And yet as I mentioned earlier, the number who claim themselves as experts is several magnitudes larger. It never ceases to amaze me what people cite as justification of their prowess. The more statistically-minded of us realize that making the T8 of a ~25-30 person tournament is almost entirely irrelevant. In fact, winning a ~25-30 person tournament is largely irrelevant. Realistically, anyone citing tournament prowess who has less than half a dozen T8s or wins on national level tournaments is just blowing smoke.

Other facepalm-worthy 'accomplishments' cited as basis for one's 'expertise:'
Being a member of a certain team. I am on ICBM and I can say in total confidence that while it has provided me with opportunities to improve myself, the simple membership in no way increases my stature or knowledge of Vintage in any way.
Having designed a deck not universally accepted as tier 1. Innovating something proves nothing more than that you can write a list of 60 cards down and some vague explanations. I built Gilded Claw. That did not make me an expert. I built ICBM Oath. That did not make me an expert. I renovated Meandeck Gifts into Twilight Gifts. That did not make me an expert. Stop claiming that the 5 card tweak you put on some list that T8ed a random tournament makes you an expert.

Expertise is a tricky and subjective thing. It never ceases to amaze me how much people argue against Steve Menendian based on their own 'experience and expertise.' Let me give some great time-saving advice to the majority of the community: if you're going to disagree with Smmenen, do an hour of testing for whatever tiny nitpick you have. Because the majority of the time he is correct, because he is better than you at Vintage. Same reason Flores is usually right at deckbuilding questions and Eisel is usually right about limited. I don't if this sounds dumb or flattering, give the man some damn credit for knowing what's up.

The next deadly sin I would like to address is quite simply narrow-mindedness. Oh how lovely this one is. Raise your hand if you have a pet or rogue deck you like to play. Congratulations, you're holding Vintage back! If few other people are playing your deck, it generally isn't because you know it better than them, it is because they'd rather utilize their skill level on something that is just plain better. Sure I love my Angel Oath and Gilded Claw, but realizing when something is just plain inferior and picking up a better deck is an incredibly simple skill that I see lacking all too much. Standard pros change decks like we change clothes. It is a lesson we would be well served to learn.

The flip-side of this, of course, is what I would call innovation for the sake of innovation. People post new deck ideas with no regard as to whether or not they are actually better than what is currently available. This never ceases to amaze me. People need to realize that 99% of innovation will simply not be viable, and those rehashing outdated ideas over and over again are the worst offenders of these. Barring new restrictions or drastically overpowered cards in new sets, old ideas do not magically become viable for no apparent reason. I think we can all agree that Stompy and Sligh are not contenders in any way. Seeing people bring up things like Stasis and Keeper every time a new set comes out makes me just sigh and shake my head. Let the dead rest in peace.

The last, most important, and by far the most complicated of my deadly sins of Vintage is hard to quantify. I think it is best generalized as the lack of respect for theory in Vintage discussions and the over-reliance on anecdote and inference. This is where (not to beat a dead horse) I continue to have the most respect for Smmenen more than any other Vintage pundit. Every time I read about a new deck on any forum, I am infinitely more interested in hearing why the deck is good, especially in strategic comparison to similar archetypes and builds, than in hearing how the deck crushed a field of 15 locals en-route to splitting a beat-up Mox. I find that many of those nitpicking Steve's conclusions fall deep into this trap.

Let me offer an example. If you are facing Meandeck SX, you are likely to be facing a turn 1 kill or fizzle. As such, the vast majority of your deck is irrelevant, with the exception of Force of Will, Duress/Thoughtseize, Chalice of the Void, one of the 9spheres, Mana Drain + a non-and blue source, and to a lesser extent various turn 1/0 graveyard hosers and Extirpate. Therefore, in theory, your deck's matchup with Meandeck SX is almost entirely determinant on your numbers of the aforementioned cards.

Flash was much the same as SX in terms of speed, though more consistent. It was vulnerable to the same things, fully including graveyard hate. Thus in theory your Flash matchup, as with SX, was predicated on your access to these tools. Yet how often did people claim to absolutely crush Flash with high consistency despite wildly varying quantities of these?

I designed ICBM Oath to beat the premier decks of the time: Long and Slaver. I accepted a weaker Fish and Workshop matchup in order to stack myself with ample quantities of the tools to beat both in lethal configurations. Obligatorily, both Long and Slaver players came forward to claim that they crushed Oath, despite the crippling disadvantages, on the basis that their token test partners crumbled before them. Facepalming ensues ad nauseum. Theory dictates that any matchup should be tested by two pilots of identical skill with their respective decks. Practice shows that this happens about as often as Vintage players admitting they are wrong.

Theory as a fundamental basis for design gets trodden-on and forgotten just as often as the matchup theory. Admittedly it is more complicated than other formats, but that is no excuse to throw it out the window. To put in perspective, design theory for limited holds that decks should contain between 15-18 mana sources and a bell-curve of mana costs that peaks around 3-4. Priority for inclusion as well as pick orders in draft are predicated upon the BREAD model. Bombs, then removal, then evasion, then abilities, then dorks.

Vintage has its own theories of this type that are applicable to varying degrees and readily ignored by most. For example, the presence of Ichorid means that any deck not choosing to sacrifice the matchup should either have the ability to consistently kill by turn 1-2, or have access to half a dozen or more specific pieces of graveyard hate. Similarly, because Storm Combo exists and can consistently goldfish in the first two turns, any deck not designed specifically to kill on turn 1 has to have at least some form of disruption that can be reliably cast on the first turn.

Another gigantic and oft-forgotten theory is that of the fundamental turn. The two theories addressed in the preceding paragraph are fairly straightforward, but how many of you deck designers keep the fundamental turn in mind when you're building? It is a horrible fallacy to assume one can compete with a strategy that does severely affect the dynamic in the first two turns, when GrimLong will try to kill you in that time-frame and Control Slaver will have Mana Drain or Welder online by then.

Other theories oft-ignored involve the 5-axis metagame principle, the beatdown principle and the concept of momentum, and the relativity of resource advantage its inherent dynamics. The last of those is one I do plan on going into in an upcoming piece, as I feel with the restriction of Brainstorm and Merchant Scroll it has become the most overlooked of all.

*breathes*

To summarize, I consider the deadly sins that are crippling Vintage to be:

-Debating irrelevant things
-Stroking the egos
-Refusing to innovate
-Innovating for the sake of innovation
-Ignorance of theory in testing
-Ignorance of theory in building

Note that none of that is any shot against playskill in any way. I believe Vintage has extremely skilled and dedicated players. I worry, however, that we are simply continuing to build on a foundation of quicksand, and the player and tournament base is stagnating as a result. The last thing I believe we need is to be focusing on recruiting players by making the format more 'fun'. What we need is to work on these sins to better convince quality players in other formats that Vintage is a driven and competitive environment worthy of their energies.



With all that negativity down, I would like to offer the following, which I will call my Vintage bucket list. I believe this to be the list of things that every serious Vintage player should accomplish in their career, both to improve themselves and to greatly advance and enhance the format as a whole.

1) Netdeck shamelessly for a tournament. If you refuse to pilot something you haven't tinkered to your own needs, you're missing out. Go find a Menedian or Shay list, preferably something out of your comfort zone in terms of archetypes, and take it to a tournament and kick ass. If you've ever thought that something is missing in your Vintage experience, this tends to be it. Learning to pilot a 'pro' deck will take your play to the next level, and having the options available makes you a more rounded player overall.

2) Play a rogue deck for a tournament. The flip side of that, of course, is that one should at some point try their hand at deckbuilding themselves. They say all good things in moderation. You should always have a little fun and a homemade pile to spice things up every now and then.

3) Utterly bomb out of a tournament at no fault of your own. I know players who seem to never fail to make the Top 8 but never can get that elusive first place. Winning all the time is fine, but as with any game involving an element of luck, it rarely happens. Getting obliterated straight to the 0-2 bracket despite (in our own minds of course) perfectly playing a good deck is often the wake-up call we need to get that extra bit of practice in or perhaps give another archetype a try. Anything to pull us out of the tournament rut which ruins the fun and competitiveness of the whole atmosphere. If nothing else, losing is a necessary part of the game because it reminds us that we are only human. The important thing is to accept that losing can just happen, and not automatically look for something else to blame.

4) Playtest the other side of the table. My golden rule when playtesting is to always switch things up periodically and play the other deck. You can only learn so much about a deck by playing with it, yet this is a trap I see too many people caught in. Until you've played against, lost to, and beaten up on your own deck, you can never truly hope to master it.

5) Play every other format at least once. I don't care if it is one draft and a single game of each other, and this should include limited, constructed, and even casual/fantasy formats such as Type 4. Trying out the many diverse options in the game is not only one of those important breaths of fresh air which keeps the game interesting, but it teaches us new skills and strategies that we don't necessarily see every day in our land of zero-mana counters and first turn kills. Even if you hate every one of them, you haven't truly experienced the game until you've tried them.



In conclusion, I worry about Vintage. I worry about how other players see Vintage and I worry about where we are going as a format and as a community in the future. I hope that this helps people gain a wider perspective on the format and realize that we all may have the smallest player base and tournament scene, but that is no excuse for not being professional in what we do have and working to expand on this.

As stated at the beginning, by all means speak your mind for good or ill. I am a big boy, and if you think I am absolutely full of shit or full of brilliant ideas, I want to hear. Thank you.

Peace, love, and the pursuit of happiness,
Dan, the AngryPheldagrif
Logged

A day without spam is like a day without sunshine.
M.Solymossy
Restricted Posting
Basic User
*
Posts: 1982

Sphinx of The Steel Wind

MikeSolymossy
View Profile Email
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2008, 08:41:26 am »

Dan, I must admit I rolled my eyes HARD when I saw Zherbus' post of "Dan's placeholder", but you have definitely surpassed all expectations.   That piece was well written, and I almost wish SCG would have published it like other articles of yours.  I'd also post that on Magiceternal.com if it isn't there, as it seems most vintage players skip this section.

That said, I agree with all of your points, and I have even fallen guilty to many of your points.


Quote
I know players who seem to never fail to make the Top 8 but never can get that elusive first place.

*points at self*   

...sigh...
Logged

~Team Meandeck~

Vintage will continue to be awful until Time Vault is banned from existance.
ELD
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1462


Eric Dupuis

ericeld1980
View Profile
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2008, 11:28:23 am »

Quote
3) Utterly bomb out of a tournament at no fault of your own.

I have never done this, and I will be shocked if I ever do.  To utterly bomb out of a tournament at no fault of my own would involve playing the optimal deck for the field perfectly, and still not winning.  In every single match loss I've ever had in Vintage, I've been able to point to specific choices that were suboptimal.  These are always important learning experiences for me.  I don't accept that losing just happens.  I believe that it is a "warm and fuzzy" cop out to see our losses as anything other than the result of our choices.  Some examples:

1) At one of the early Waterbury's, I found myself with a couple draws early.  This was a direct result of my inexperience in larger tournaments.  My opponents were actually cheating via stalling, and since I exclusively played in under 40 people events, I had never run across that kind of flagrant behavior.  At one point an opponent was shuffling back and forth 2 lands in his hand, agonizing over imaginary plays to eat up time on the clock.  I had to decide if it was worth playing in larger events after that.  I came to the conclusion that it was worth it, but only when I'm willing to use the judges to make sure I don't end up on the losing side of illegal behavior.  It would have been easy to blame this on my opponents, but I am not in control of them, only myself.  By taking the responsibility for my own results, I force myself to learn the art of winning tournaments, as opposed to winning at Magic. 

2) I played Ichorid at Batter's Up, as I didn't have time to build CS.  I was not impressed at all with my performance, despite making Top 8.  I lost to 2 decks in the swiss that would have been a much easier match up with CS.  In the Top 8, I lost due to my sideboard not being properly constructed.  I also could have made some stronger plays in some of my match ups, wins and loses.  It would have been easier to not take responsibility for the losses, and instead insist that it was bad luck, or it just happens, or any number of excuses.  By refusing to take the cop out, and really examine how the choices I made affected the results, I usually learn more from my losses than I do from my victories.  In this instance, I learned a great deal about the role of Ichorid in the New Age of Vintage, construction of Ichorid to face the new meta, and refined my understanding of when to make obscure plays with Cabal Therapy. 
Logged

unrestrict: Freedom
Moxlotus
Teh Absolut Ballz
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2199


Where the fuck are my pants?

moxlotusgws
View Profile
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2008, 01:18:43 pm »

Quote
I have never done this, and I will be shocked if I ever do

You've never just lost on turn 1 to combo desptie having forces in your deck?  Or kept a solid hand, and then had your next 7 draws be land?

I completely crapped out of 1 tournament.  I was playing URBana fish and lost to Flash.  The deck had about as much disruption as you could possibly get, in addition to leylines in the board, but I got killed turn 1 by flash game 1 w/ force backup.  Then game 3 I got turn 1 reverent silenced flash with double force backup.  The next match was Goblins.  There was 40 people there and I knew I would lose to that 1 goblins player if I got matched up, but the odds of me playing him were low.  Yup, got paired against him.  I managed to pull out 1 game with him losing to a strip mine, but 1/4 of my deck is just worthless against his.  I believe this was the one tournament where I absolutely crashed without even really having the chance to make a match ending mistake (which I've made plenty of in other tournaments).

Quote
Other theories oft-ignored involve the 5-axis metagame principle, the beatdown principle and the concept of momentum, and the relativity of resource advantage its inherent dynamics. The last of those is one I do plan on going into in an upcoming piece, as I feel with the restriction of Brainstorm and Merchant Scroll it has become the most overlooked of all.
I can't wait for this one.
Logged

Cybernations--a free nation building game.
http://www.cybernations.net
Anusien
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 3669


Anusien
View Profile
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2008, 08:42:58 am »

#1: Hypothetically speaking, how theory (and the lack there-of) is destroying Vintage
I get the clever title, but I don't think your comments support this title.  Unless you call "innovation" a theory.

The next deadly sin I would like to address is quite simply narrow-mindedness. Oh how lovely this one is. Raise your hand if you have a pet or rogue deck you like to play. Congratulations, you're holding Vintage back! If few other people are playing your deck, it generally isn't because you know it better than them, it is because they'd rather utilize their skill level on something that is just plain better. Sure I love my Angel Oath and Gilded Claw, but realizing when something is just plain inferior and picking up a better deck is an incredibly simple skill that I see lacking all too much. Standard pros change decks like we change clothes. It is a lesson we would be well served to learn.
This sounds really good to say, but it simply isn't true.  A significant number of tier one decks in a variety of formats started this way, the most notable and recent being the Pickles deck.  I'm sure Bomberman started out as a pet deck, and many Shop decks started that way as well.  Ray has a pet/rogue deck he likes to play, and it's won him numerous top 8s.  Or for a T2 example, what about Ben Peebles-Mundy clinging to Reveillark like the last life raft of the Titanic?  I think this statement is a little broad.

Overall interesting article.  I think your audience is not the group of people that are replying to this post though...
Logged

Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator

Quote from: H.L. Mencken
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
ELD
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1462


Eric Dupuis

ericeld1980
View Profile
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2008, 04:21:21 pm »

Quote
You've never just lost on turn 1 to combo desptie having forces in your deck?  Or kept a solid hand, and then had your next 7 draws be land?

Playing Force of Will in your deck is different than having it in hand.  It's not some magical rule that says you can't lose if you play FoW :p  I've never drawn 7 lands in a row twice in a match that I've lost, for two straight matches.  Every single time I've ever missed Top 8, I can pin point choices that I made that contributed to my poor performance.  These could be from deck choice, to play errors, to the larger concepts of taking care of myself.  The reason I have achieved what I have is because of a refusal place "blame" on anything outside my control.  I take full responsibility for all my choices.  In that way, I am able to find areas to work on to improve my chances of success.  If I were to blame losses on "luck" I would never have got to the level I'm at, and I'd never be able to improve from here. 
Logged

unrestrict: Freedom
Methuselahn
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1051


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2008, 08:33:57 pm »

Interesting perspective on how Vintage is being destroyed.

I've been watching Vintage NOT GROW for the last five years and it has nothing to do with innovation or theory.  It has everything to do with shit ass prizes and no support from the very people who created it.  Whether the DCI can't or won't doesn't really matter, they will not support this format. 

You have to be some sort of freak to want to get into Vintage.  First off, you have to study and train hard (or be lucky enough to have The Gift) to really be good.  Second, you shell out thousands of dollars for your hobby (who doesn't want real cards instead of proxies??)  Third, you spend some 20-30 bucks for a chance at winning an 18 cent piece of cardboard.  yay.  So why would you want to ever start playing this format that the DCI doesn't even bother with?

"Flash was restricted because of turn 0 kills"  -N00b Turian.  (is it still Turian's turn to be in charge of Eternal??)

Power is bad as a prize support and top8 tournament structures make it worse.  Because Power costs so much money, it makes tournaments depressingly top heavy.  I've seen so many locals quit because of this.  (If anything, look at Europe and the success they've had with Swiss style competitions!).  Vintage in my state over the last 6 years went from having 40 people each month to no longer hosting tournaments.  Moxen suck.  Sell all of yours like I sold all of mine.  Really.  Do it. You won't regret it.

All of the people that are discussing theory and innovating, whether they're good at it or are completely awful ain't the problem.  All of these people have the zeal to work on the format they love.  They'll always support it as long as they're innovating, good or bad.  People are always leaving the format.  The problem is that there is no growth, no influx of new players.  This responsibility falls on the DCI.   You cannot say that theory is destroying the format without first saying that the DCI is destroying it WAY, WAY harder and better.


It's nice to see that  you have a blog here, dan.  Keep bringing up important topics that matter

jeff.
Logged
Anusien
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 3669


Anusien
View Profile
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2008, 11:12:56 pm »

Nothing has changed in the DCI's support or lack thereof for Vintage in some (except a slight hiccup over Gencon).  If something new is on the Vintage horizon, it's not because of the DCI.
Logged

Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator

Quote from: H.L. Mencken
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
Methuselahn
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1051


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2008, 02:56:19 am »

Nothing has changed in the DCI's support or lack thereof for Vintage in some (except a slight hiccup over Gencon).  If something new is on the Vintage horizon, it's not because of the DCI.

I totally agree.  The DCI has done nothing. 

It's sad that in the very final round of last year's WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP Shay and Menendian decide to split this obviously worthless, not-attracting-anybody-new-to-the-format piece of garbage one-of-a-kind Mox. 

I know that I didn't exactly win the prize by taking 20th at the event, but recieving a Time Spiral draft set and a pen aint exactly small potatoes.   Roll Eyes

Ban the DCI!

Cheney/Voltemort '08!!
Logged
Anusien
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 3669


Anusien
View Profile
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2008, 12:06:01 am »

It's sad that in the very final round of last year's WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP Shay and Menendian decide to split this obviously worthless, not-attracting-anybody-new-to-the-format piece of garbage one-of-a-kind Mox.
Why is that sad?  They can't offer anything besides money, and it's easy to split money, especially because the potential swing of losing that match is huge.  In T2, there is so much more on the line, like the free invites to all the PTs and the Invitational invite that doesn't come into play with Vintage.
Logged

Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator

Quote from: H.L. Mencken
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
Methuselahn
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1051


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2008, 12:39:14 pm »

It's sad that in the very final round of last year's WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP Shay and Menendian decide to split this obviously worthless, not-attracting-anybody-new-to-the-format piece of garbage one-of-a-kind Mox.
Why is that sad?  They can't offer anything besides money, and it's easy to split money, especially because the potential swing of losing that match is huge.  In T2, there is so much more on the line, like the free invites to all the PTs and the Invitational invite that doesn't come into play with Vintage.

What?  They didn't offer ANY money at the World Champs.  They offered a painting.  And when the 2 finalists went to the DCI to get a split, they refused because they couldn't put a price on such a thing.  Contestants recieved draft packs of Time Spiral.  Once again, not money.  From the people that I talked to that recieved "prizes,"  none of them were estatic about it. 

Losing that match would NOT be huge.  There is no set value on the prize, which went unwanted anyway.

Not sure how Type 2 factors into any of this.

The DCI claims responsibility for the growth of Eternal by holding true to their promise of not reprinting what is on the Reserved List and by dictating what is on the B&R list.  (For whatever reason, the Vintage community blindly follows)  Despite this responsibility, they have done relatively nothing to support the format.  IMHO.
Logged
Moxlotus
Teh Absolut Ballz
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2199


Where the fuck are my pants?

moxlotusgws
View Profile
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2008, 01:04:28 pm »

It's sad that in the very final round of last year's WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP Shay and Menendian decide to split this obviously worthless, not-attracting-anybody-new-to-the-format piece of garbage one-of-a-kind Mox.
Why is that sad?  They can't offer anything besides money, and it's easy to split money, especially because the potential swing of losing that match is huge.  In T2, there is so much more on the line, like the free invites to all the PTs and the Invitational invite that doesn't come into play with Vintage.

What?  They didn't offer ANY money at the World Champs.  They offered a painting.  And when the 2 finalists went to the DCI to get a split, they refused because they couldn't put a price on such a thing.  Contestants recieved draft packs of Time Spiral.  Once again, not money.  From the people that I talked to that recieved "prizes,"  none of them were estatic about it. 

Losing that match would NOT be huge.  There is no set value on the prize, which went unwanted anyway.

Not sure how Type 2 factors into any of this.

The DCI claims responsibility for the growth of Eternal by holding true to their promise of not reprinting what is on the Reserved List and by dictating what is on the B&R list.  (For whatever reason, the Vintage community blindly follows)  Despite this responsibility, they have done relatively nothing to support the format.  IMHO.

I believe Anusien's point was that other formats offer something for the winner that you can't put a price on like free invites.  vintage doesn't have anything you need an invite for, so Wizards found something else that they couldn't put an exact price on.

If you think the painting is worthless, then if you win it can I have it?  If I recall, Roland got some pretty large offers for his Ancestral painting.
Logged

Cybernations--a free nation building game.
http://www.cybernations.net
Anusien
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 3669


Anusien
View Profile
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2008, 02:39:51 pm »

Don't kid yourself, the Vintage World Championship prize is nothing but money.  I think the past ones valued at four figures (I can't remember, but Steven mentions it).  However, there's nothing they give that isn't freely convertible to cash, unlike PT and Invitational invites.  Although I think ti would be interesting if they offered the Vintage and Legacy World Champions invites to the Invitational.  You'll never see a split at the finals of Worlds because that prize isn't splittable.  The winner may give the loser a chunk of their prize money to make it more equitable (the same way I think it was JD used to offer to split the SCG P9 prizes Lotus/Ancestral + Twister instead of Lotus + Twister/Ancestral), but getting all the Invites and the Pro Points and especially the Invitational invite is just a big deal.

Quote
What?  They didn't offer ANY money at the World Champs.  They offered a painting.  And when the 2 finalists went to the DCI to get a split, they refused because they couldn't put a price on such a thing.  Contestants recieved draft packs of Time Spiral.  Once again, not money.  From the people that I talked to that recieved "prizes,"  none of them were estatic about it.

Losing that match would NOT be huge.  There is no set value on the prize, which went unwanted anyway.
Actually, if you read Smmenen's article, he really wanted the painting.  He thought it was extremely valuable.  He claims that he was less concerned about the title, because he felt jinxed.  So he wanted a split to make the match just about the title and not about the cash, which takes the pressure off.  It wasn't that the prize went unwanted, because it's valuable, but it's that there is no set price on it.  It's like original artwork for cards; it's worth whatever people will pay for it.  Since there are only, what, 3 like it in existence, it's hard to value it properly.
Logged

Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator

Quote from: H.L. Mencken
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
Methuselahn
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1051


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2008, 08:03:18 pm »

Quote
Don't kid yourself, the Vintage World Championship prize is nothing but money.  I think the past ones valued at four figures (I can't remember, but Steven mentions it).
Yeah, he made an argument on these boards stating that someone offered X amount of money to Roland for his piece and thus it was somehow worth that much.  I was all over THAT thread too.  The transaction never took place.  As far as I know, none of these paintings have ever exchanged hands for money. 

You mention in your post that the painting is 'four-figures' valuable and then go on to say that it can't be valued properly, so I'm not entirely sure where you stand.

Quote
If I recall, Roland got some pretty large offers for his Ancestral painting.
I've gotten some pretty large offers for a booger I made that looked like president Lincoln.  How about I sell it to you for half of my last offer, okay?

Yeah, I'm sure the price is nothing but money, but how much?  Basing any type of amount that some dude supposedly offered some other dude that never went through is a horrible and impractical way to price anything.

Quote
Actually, if you read Smmenen's article, he really wanted the painting.
Well, I was at the Vintage Champs last year and talked to teammate Shay during the entire event.  They decided to split the painting and sell it on ebay or wherever before the match took place.  That was the agreement as I understood it.  So, neither player had any intention of keeping it.  So I would have to doubt that he really wanted it, despite what he may have written.

Quote
If you think the painting is worthless, then if you win it can I have it?
Sure,  If I was going.  I sold all my power after last Gencon and won't be attending again.  The biggest attraction for me last year was just playing the game and meeting fellow TMDrs.
Logged
Smmenen
2007 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 6392


Smmenen
View Profile WWW
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2008, 08:55:27 pm »

Hehe!

I've watched this thread weave and turn and veer all over the place.  I suppose I should jump in, although there have been several times that I've been tempted.

@ Methuselahn.  Over the years you've presented some pretty radical positions on Vintage.   I don't say that you criticize you or to marginalize your positions, but to provide context.   I remember, quite distinctly, your sharp opposition to Proxies and proxy tournaments.  In response to my articles, in the past, you've repeated that opposition. I can't remember whether your opposition was because you wanted the DCI to sponsor more tournaments or what, but I think that proxies were a big part of the growth of Vintage.

I sensed, although it was never explicit, that you preferred Vintage being a collector's format.  I play Vintage and love the format for the game, regardless of the collectibility of it. 

I think you are right to criticize the DCI for their lack of support.  There are other things they could do for Vintage.  But the truth of the matter is that there isn't much more they can do.   Could they provide more monetary support for the Vintage champs? Sure.   They could also do what they've done in the past and hold more national tournaments that feed into the Vintage champs.  They could also hold more, bigger Vintage tournaments at other major magic tournaments.  But they can't ever do a Vintage Grand Prix, nor should they.   And the reason is because they can't allow proxies.   There  are only so many Mishra's Workshops and Bazaars in existence.

Vintage is only fun when it is played at its highest level free from the most severe monetary constraints.   

If you want Vintage to grow, what do you think should be done? 
Logged

Tha Gunslinga
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1583


De-Errata Mystical Tutor!

ThaGunslingaMOTL
View Profile Email
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2008, 11:01:12 pm »

If you want vintage to grow, here's what you do.

1.  Run tournaments.  Especially in places that don't have them.

2.  Teach people how to play Vintage.  Honestly, if you give a T2 player a Slaver deck, show them roughly how it plays, and drop them into a Vintage tourney, they'll most likely love it and keep playing.

3.  Help people get the tools to play, whether it's helping them build decks, acquire cards, or just allowing a high proxy number so you can play whatever you want.
Logged

Don't tolerate splittin'
M.Solymossy
Restricted Posting
Basic User
*
Posts: 1982

Sphinx of The Steel Wind

MikeSolymossy
View Profile Email
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2008, 10:48:21 am »


I can actually attest to this.  Ben is so involved in the vintage community.   I didn't own MANAMORPHOSE that I needed to make ten proxies, so Ben lent me FIVE PIECES OF POWER (Including a lotus, sapphire and BETA recall) to make proxy limit.  There is a tournament Sunday that I can't make proxy limit, and Ben again borrowed me FOUR mana drains.   He's doing 25 proxies and holding Prize support that is designed to break even at large numbers of people.   I'd challenge anyone Match his events on a small scale (TMD opens are big scale Ray, and you do an awesome job, but I'm talking low scale events). 
Logged

~Team Meandeck~

Vintage will continue to be awful until Time Vault is banned from existance.
kl0wn
Obsolete
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 425


kl0wnz0r ahappyclown
View Profile
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2008, 11:22:39 am »

What I fail to understand is why nobody has proposed just completely disregarding the DCI.

Essentially, you set up a unified governing body, ranking system and B&R list that are each independent of the DCI's and then run it based on actual problems and limitations of the format as opposed to the current way, which is not.

The community here has a far better understanding of the format, especially regarding the B&R list, than the DCI ever will. Not only that, but you also have the potential backing of SCG which, correct me if I'm wrong, now owns this site. I won't speculate as to whether SCG would want to expand to the extent of developing/sponsoring their own format, but the fact is it's virgin territory with at least modest demand and no competition and I hear businesses like that kind of thing.

Either way, it seems like the wherewithal exists to set something like this up, especially since it would likely only require some adaptations of the systems the DCI uses and some sort of screening process for new tournament upstarts. Hell, you could even go back to calling it Type 1, since what you have here is now officially called "Vintage" or "Eternal" or whatever.

After developing the ranking system and establishing a REAL B&R list, you just streamline the proxy system and set up a database of "TMD Sanctioned" tournaments and you're ready to rock. Maybe set up some sort of invitational system where those who have won an event get free entry into a larger one (although that's getting into possible monetary complications without some form of money-handling entity behind it).

The way I see it is that BD and TMD have done exponentially more for the format and community than the DCI ever will; there's nothing wrong with taking that next logical step.

But at the same time:

1) That all may be more effort than it's worth,
and
2) I may have no idea what I'm talking about.

Either way, figured I'd just toss that out there for you guys to mull over.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 11:25:33 am by kl0wn » Logged

Team kl0wn: Quitting Magic since 2005?
The Fringe: R.I.P.
Zherbus
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 2406


FatherHell
View Profile WWW
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2008, 11:30:22 am »

Quote
What I fail to understand is why nobody has proposed just completely disregarding the DCI.

Nice seeing you, Bryce.

Look in Shockwaves blog and the thread in the Community forum. It's been beaten to death with a pretty good set of arguements against doing just that.
Logged

Founder, Admin of TheManaDrain.com

Team Meandeck: Because Noble Panther Decks Keeper
Anusien
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 3669


Anusien
View Profile
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2008, 11:48:19 am »

The biggest and best Vintage tournaments don't come close to the numbers or prize support for a Grand Prix or a Pro Tour.  We'll likely never put a Vintage-only player in the Hall of Fame the way you could a Limited or Constructed specialist.  The artwork is a nice, Vintage-only prize.  It's something a non-DCI body could never give out.  ELD proxies are cool, but they're not original, professional-level artwork.

And geez, think of how the Legacy players feel.  They don't even get paintings!
Logged

Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator

Quote from: H.L. Mencken
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
Zherbus
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 2406


FatherHell
View Profile WWW
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2008, 12:48:44 pm »

They get the stray GP here and there (and Worlds section). Woe is them?
Logged

Founder, Admin of TheManaDrain.com

Team Meandeck: Because Noble Panther Decks Keeper
Anusien
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 3669


Anusien
View Profile
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2008, 01:49:43 pm »

They get the stray GP here and there (and Worlds section). Woe is them?
Having Worlds played in Legacy is cool, but it's not impacting me.  I'm not likely to get to Worlds (unless I'm in stripes), and a European GP doesn't help me in the least.  The two US GPs are cool, yeah, but my point is that Vintage, Draft, Block, Standard and Extended all have established identities.  Legacy really is Johnny-come-lately.
Logged

Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator

Quote from: H.L. Mencken
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
Methuselahn
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1051


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2008, 01:55:15 pm »

Smmenen, since you mention it, I've been all for proxies for a number of years now.  I don't think I've given any sort of indication otherwise for some time now.  Let it be  known now that I fully endorse proxies. 

As far as increasing interest, I would do the following: 

-Run tournaments with entry fees no higher than 10 dollars.  New players are less willing to throw away larger amounts of money.  Usually, thats what newbies are, donations.   Especially tournaments where Power is involved.  Paying ~25$ and then distributing prizes only to the top handful of players is not promoting growth.  It's just making the rich richer.  You have to be at the top of the game to half-expect to 'profit' from this format, currently.

-Give back cash instead of cardboard.  Who doesn't like money?  The people that already love this format will play regardless.  They play because they like getting broken gassy hands and insane draw on turn 1, not because a Mox is on the line.  There are precious few that actually make a profit in the time it takes to keep up with the format, pay tournament expenses, and spend a whole day at a tournament.

-Run Swiss events instead of Top8.  They're shorter, less likely to be influenced by team collusion, and more conducive to a greater prize distribution.  This is one thing the DCI did right at the last Indy Gencon.  From what I understand, and a good example, the actions of even last year's World Championships was more about notoriety than prize value anyway.

-Get the DCI to allow unlimited proxies in sanctioned play.  The line of thinking against this goes back to the Reserved list.  By allowing proxies you somehow diminish the value of the real counterparts, thus hurting collectors.  However, I highly doubt that this would negatively affect the value of those on the Reserved list today.  In fact, I'd imagine the increased interest would actually benefit collectors.  It makes sense to me that if there were twice as many people playing Vintage right now because the DCI allows proxies then there would be a higher demand for power, thus increasing their value.  If you've watched the price of power since proxy tournaments have started, they've done nothing but skyrocket.

This last one is probably full of added headaches, but likely worth it if it would double Vintage attendance.

Those are a few ideas off the top of my head.

Logged
Anusien
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 3669


Anusien
View Profile
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2008, 02:29:32 pm »

I think Methuselahn is on the right track with #1.  I think TOs need to do a better job distinguishing between FNM and PTQ/GP style events.  Just about every event that gets run is "$20+ entry fee, prizes to Top8."  These are fine, and I've done well at a few.  But where are the FNM-style, more casual $5 events?  Those are important too and good for the growth of the format.

Swiss instead of Swiss + Top8 is fine if the prizes are low (FNM style event).  But I'd rather not a mana screw or lucksack round keeping me from even having a shot.  Straight Swiss often turns into single elimination in a way that swiss + top8 doesn't.
Logged

Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator

Quote from: H.L. Mencken
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
Moxlotus
Teh Absolut Ballz
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2199


Where the fuck are my pants?

moxlotusgws
View Profile
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2008, 05:03:46 pm »

Quote
But where are the FNM-style, more casual $5 events?  Those are important too and good for the growth of the format.

Lots of people have to travel a few hours to get to a tournament.  No way in hell I'm driving 3 hours to do a $5 tournament.
Logged

Cybernations--a free nation building game.
http://www.cybernations.net
Vegeta2711
Bouken Desho Desho?
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1734


Nyah!

Silky172
View Profile WWW
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2008, 05:25:23 pm »

Quote
But where are the FNM-style, more casual $5 events?  Those are important too and good for the growth of the format.

Lots of people have to travel a few hours to get to a tournament.  No way in hell I'm driving 3 hours to do a $5 tournament.

Sure, but I don't think that's really his point. Rather the $5 dollar tournaments would be meant to bring in more local guys and build interest, so then when you run the 20-30 dollar ones, you get more people. I know a number of people that aren't interested in trying to get a deck together and spending 25 bucks to come and most likely get smashed by our local pros.

Unless the definition of local for Vintage is 2-3 hours, in which case, haha nice format.  Wink
Logged

Team Reflection

www.vegeta2711.deviantart.com - My art stuff!
Anusien
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 3669


Anusien
View Profile
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2008, 05:39:52 pm »

Are you likely to spend $20 on a format you've never played?  No.  Would you spend $5?  More likely.
Logged

Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator

Quote from: H.L. Mencken
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
Moxlotus
Teh Absolut Ballz
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2199


Where the fuck are my pants?

moxlotusgws
View Profile
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2008, 05:45:33 pm »

Quote
Unless the definition of local for Vintage is 2-3 hours, in which case, haha nice format. 

In the midwest it kinda is.
Logged

Cybernations--a free nation building game.
http://www.cybernations.net
Vegeta2711
Bouken Desho Desho?
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1734


Nyah!

Silky172
View Profile WWW
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2008, 05:51:45 pm »

Quote
Unless the definition of local for Vintage is 2-3 hours, in which case, haha nice format. 

In the midwest it kinda is.

Hm.

Haha, nice format.
Logged

Team Reflection

www.vegeta2711.deviantart.com - My art stuff!
Anusien
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 3669


Anusien
View Profile
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2008, 06:10:23 pm »

Quote
Unless the definition of local for Vintage is 2-3 hours, in which case, haha nice format. 

In the midwest it kinda is.
The idea behind local tournaments is that it wouldn't have to be uber-competitive, and it wouldn't be worth travelling to, meaning that less skilled players could get better wihtout the good players stomping them.  Then you'd build communities less than 2 hours away.
Logged

Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator

Quote from: H.L. Mencken
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.163 seconds with 21 queries.