New Turn one kill

[Ancestralx]

I have been working on a better turn one kill. This deck is pretty good at winning on turn one but has no disruption or counter backup and can just scoop to force of will. I am thinking of sideboarding Orims chants to fix the problem but I have been very busy lately. Here it is anyways. I have some other list for different new decks but I am testing them for Chicago. I have decided against playing this unless someone can tell me how to fix it. Otherwise it seems worse than grim long, but with just as many or more turn one wins consistently.

The gist of the deck is to ritual out or cast a helm of awakening leaving a black floating to cast more rituals since cabal ritual also cost one black then. Then play all the one drops for free and manamorphisis gets you extra mana, your colors you need, and a card. Then play a draw spell. Then keep doing it till you tendrils for the win. I am also looking for vintage team to join or start. While I do not get a lot of time to travel up north to play in a lot of vintage, I keep up with the format,I enjoy playtesting, dont mind playing the same deck over and over or switching out to figure out the weaknesses. I have a lot of new ideas and tweaks, and vintage rating is pretty decent. This is something I am very unlikely to play or I would not have posted it. I have at least 3 other new decks I am testing also. (over 1850) (If that is important, since most tournaments are proxy?) I also own alot of extra vintage playables that could be shared if needed. (2 sets of workshops, 2 sets of Bazaars, etc.) I hate playing on workstation with just random people so even if your not a team but just need a play test partner who doesnt totally suck let me know in a post or something?

4 city of brass
4 Gemstone mine
1 Glimervoid
1 Tolarian academy

2 Elvish Spirit Guide

1 Sensei's Divining top
4 Manamorphose
1 Crop Rotation
1 Yawgmoth's will
1 Memory Jar
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic tutor
1 Vampiric tutor
1 Mystical tutor
1 Regrowth
1 Channel
1 Necropotence
2 Tendrils of agony
1 lotus petal
4 Helm of awakening
1 Chromatic sphere
4 Chromatic star
1 Wheel of fortune
1 Windfall
4 Darkrituals
3 Cabal Rituals
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Black lotus
5 Moxes
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Ancestral Recall

[Ancestralx]

Please let me know what you think after you have had time to play test this.  Thanks. If I get enough comments on this I might add one of the decks I may actually play. I like the consistency of turn one kills but not the lack of disruption I have. 

[Lemnear]

If you want a really good turn one kill ratio without any look on disruption or recovery-ability you should play belcher.

Moreover your topic is a real fake ... nothings new ... only a very crapy 4c long version. Cards like Regrowth and divining top are no ones I can imagine to assist a turn 1 kill. Guess your bit cheating on yourself. The only real difference between this deck and lists I read years ago is that you'll dismiss any kind of disruption or recovery. This deck scoops to stifle, FoW, Sphere of resistence, thorn of amethyst and many more only to run several very useless cards like manamorphose ... to cast it you need red or green ... nothing a ritual can provide, which is your main accelerator .. to transform the mana into what? Black? You'll flooding black? green? For regrowth or channel? Impressive  ... the only thing it does is drawing a card ... but only if you already wanna play a card from your hand ... it does not did for cards to play like street wraith does ... one I really miss in a deck calling itself a first round killer.

Long need very less protection anyways so why dropping these ... maybe 6-7 slots including bounce for helm of awakening ond Co.? How often you gain something form a helm in play? You invest 2 mana to make a draw7 one mana cheaper?! Do the math. I'm aware that maybe the third and the following spells you play becomes cheaper but how many mana do you think you have on turn 1 to continue playing and how many mana do you think you'll save by HoA?

Finally I'm sure this deck does nothing better than any other long builds but scoops to any kind of ... say ... opponents interaction. Without simply saying "look at tournaments results and try building based on this decks" I would think about the reasons to run such a multicolored list ... what could green give you back to try a 4th color running? Why no Imperial Seal? I doubt a 3 color base (maybe fetchland-based without the masses of color-converter) would do the job less good.

[Ancestralx]

Wow!! You know what is really useful before commenting on something that you have never played?!!! Um... Playing it. Then understanding that there are intricacies that you dont see from looking at it. Helm of awakening makes the whole deck tick. I am a first time poster and I appreciate at least that you replied as no one else did, but at least proxy it up on workstation or real life and see how many times you win on turn one. And see how bad thorn or sphere hurt really bad since helm decreases the cost each time you play one. I have tested this deck quite a bit and like belcher it wins on turn one a lot of the time. I am not going to claim a number b/c I am not sure what it is. But I will play you for money against belcher if I always get to go first b/c my deck wins that often on first turn.  

[dawgie]

Rather than telling us on "Hey! This deck is consistent with Turn 1 kills!! Go try it out!!", why don't you post your matchups? And those matchups should be with decks that are used competitively.

Without any piece of protection, this deck does lose to FoW and Stifles. Chalice for 0 and 1 will definitely kill you. A simple Meddling Mage named Tendrils of Agony will kill you. And yes, you will also lose to a Sphere of Resistance or Thorn of Amethyst.  The fact that Sphere and Helm of Awakening makes the casting costs of the cards equal again, your gameplan is then screwed already because the reason you play Helm of Awakening is to lower the casting cost.

I am not putting the whole deck down, but this deck can do better. Which will then lead the deck to Grim Long.

Post your results with different decks before you claim anything. That's when people will be interested.

[Ancestralx]

I am not claiming anything. I was just putting it out there. I not much of a liar so I am not going to tell you my stacks matchup is 50/50 or something. The deck wins or loses based on who gets to go first. And if there is a force involved, althought sometimes I win anyways. I have not played this at a tournament because I playtested for quite a while and was losing to a single force!! I just wanted someone to help me figure out a little bit better list. That is why I suggested orims chants and hurykll's recall could be great too. Right now I cant fit that stuff without messing up the consistency. Belcher is similar in that it mostly wins or loses based on winning on turn one and two but nobody is saying wow belcher is not playable? I know it has welder so it has an alternate but it is affected by pretty much the same cards. I wouldnt play belcher in a tournament right now either. If you playtest my deck and figure out how to fix it let me know!! I can take critism but this is a test deck Im working on. If you want figures here:

I go first:
Belcher- I win
Control slaver w/ force- I lose
Control slaver w/o force- I usually win because of all the extra cards I will draw even if they draw a force later.
Stax- I win
Oath- Same as control slaver
Bomberman- same as above
Fish- No force I win

I go second:
If Belcher resolves and kills me I lose, If empty the warrens I win
Control slaver w/ force or able to play mana drain- I likely lose
Control slaver w/out force or able to play mana drain I win
Stax- Depends on what hits play- Trinisphere=I lose, Sphere is winnable depending on hand and draw, Chalice for 0, 1, 2 all are good. Sphere and Chalice= I lose
Oath same as control slaver
Fish- No force I win most of the time unless there is a daze that stop an important spell or null rod

If you just want to insult me and tell me my deck is bad please dont reply. I already know what it loses to. I am trying to fix it. If you figure that out, please let me know. Or if you have tested it 10 or more times and think its the worst thing ever. Then feel free to ask me about certain card choices or why this over another thing or why its not working for you. I had to explain several times to friends how to win with it.
P.S. Long looked like a pile of bad cards too, as did draw7 deck. (Please dont say this is no long, I know!! ) Thanks for looking and replying!!

[Ancestralx]

I just noticed I dont have Lions eye diamond in my list, sorry, its suppose to be where the channel is. Also I just noticed that Owen turtlewald played a similar list with no disruption at the ICBM tournament.

[Anusien]

Belcher is similar in that it mostly wins or loses based on winning on turn one and two but nobody is saying wow belcher is not playable? I know it has welder so it has an alternate but it is affected by pretty much the same cards. I wouldnt play belcher in a tournament right now either.

Belcher is far far better than you give it credit for.  Belcher has disruption, a better late game with Living Wish->Confidants, Welders as extra ways to get around counters and beat Stax, and more bombs.  If you get your Will or Draw7 forced, you're going to lose the game.  Belcher has extra win conditions (by a lot) and also more bombs.  Its A plan is Belcher, its B plan is EtW, its C plan is Welder, and its D plan is beating with men (all of these are viable, tournament-proven win conditions).

I go first:
Belcher- I win
Control slaver w/ force- I lose
Control slaver w/o force- I usually win because of all the extra cards I will draw even if they draw a force later.
Stax- I win
Oath- Same as control slaver
Bomberman- same as above
Fish- No force I win

I go second:
If Belcher resolves and kills me I lose, If empty the warrens I win
Control slaver w/ force or able to play mana drain- I likely lose
Control slaver w/out force or able to play mana drain I win
Stax- Depends on what hits play- Trinisphere=I lose, Sphere is winnable depending on hand and draw, Chalice for 0, 1, 2 all are good. Sphere and Chalice= I lose
Oath same as control slaver
Fish- No force I win most of the time unless there is a daze that stop an important spell or null rod

100% of the time?  Always?  Or is it close?  Normally matchup percentages are meaningless, but saying "I beat CS when they don't have a Force is a ludicrous statement, because no one is 100% against any deck".

Now, I'm going to play with it sometime this week so I can give more constructive feedback.  But when you come on with your first post and try to reinvent the Tendrils wheel people tend to take it badly.  There are tons of similar topics on the boards, so your comments would be received better if it was more obvious you had read the other experiments with Helm of Awakening in Tendrils.

[KnowmaD]

If your really that confident about your first turn an worried about the force.  Maybe Pact of Negation.



                                                                                    keep building,
                                                                                           
                                                                                                       Knowmad

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

your could increase your threat density  and just attempt to play though force of will.

[Lemnear]

Huh?! Never played it ... Boy, I play storm-combo since it's printed! I've passed original Long to LongDeath to GrimLong and GUESS that I have at least a BIT more experience with such a deck than you.

Moreover I'm pretty sure that I did a bit more than just telling "this deck is bad" ... I listed the (long year experienced) weaknesses and some solutions to fix it. Your statistics are a fairy tale ... what does it mean? No FoW = Win?! I'm pretty sure your not counting the games you have to mulligan, nor having cards in bad combination causing mulligans too or simply not enough fastmana to go off turn 1. Lets say a hand with a Cromatic Sphere/Star, a cabal ritual, a helm, manamorphose, land, Mox Pearl, mystical tutor ... maybe a really random hand but shows exactly the quantity of cards in the deck that sure will not lead to a first turn kill. I'll mark some spots in your decklist so show that I mean ... cards that slow you, offer no direct advantage and telling me that this deck will never ever kill that much often turn 1 you want us to belive...

4 city of brass
4 Gemstone mine
1 Glimervoid
1 Tolarian academy

2 Elvish Spirit Guide

1 Sensei's Divining top
4 Manamorphose
1 Crop Rotation
1 Yawgmoth's will
1 Memory Jar
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic tutor
1 Vampiric tutor
1 Mystical tutor
1 Regrowth
1 Channel
1 Necropotence
2 Tendrils of agony
1 lotus petal
4 Helm of awakening
1 Chromatic sphere
4 Chromatic star
1 Wheel of fortune
1 Windfall
4 Darkrituals
3 Cabal Rituals
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Black lotus
5 Moxes
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Ancestral Recall

At least I count 18 cards that I would say fit my criteria. Sound to me like someone I played against 3 tournaments ago running 4 Bobs and 4 Tops in his list mainboard and tells me "my deck kills 90% of the time turn 1" ... Think about it ...

A last word again to your matchup listing. You already know that you have to win 2 outa 3 games? Don't you think that all the matchups will board in something you can't handle without own disruption? Sure it's a bit unfair to discuss about sideboarding unless you write your opinion to the topic. I could imagine that you could steal at least a victroy against anyone of the deck but I guess we discuss about the matchups in general not bout the chance to steal a victory agaist an opponent doing nothing and you having a insane turn 1 kill hand. As Anusien asked bout the percentage, it's important do differ the matchups into a 60:40 advantage or maybe a 30:70 disadvantage not saying "loose" or "victory". A percentage based on many testgames including losses caused by mulligans etc. really tells something. Guess at least a few poster will not divide a deck into black-white ... I myself am aware of many shapes of grey...

[Anusien]

Considering you didn't post a sideboard, I'm assuming you're only talking about Game 1.  It's fine to say "I beat CS."  "I beat Fish."  Yeah, but how often?  51%?  100%?

Anyway, I'll believe you if you say "I've played tons of Helm Tendrils, and Burning Long and Death Long and Grim Long and Suicide Virus and PitchLong and GWS Long and Drain TPS and TPS and Draw7..."  You really don't post like you do.  Your opening post ought to include a link to the most recent posting about a deck like that, and talking about why your deck is (or isn't) better than those decks.  Is it just that no one tried Helm + Manamorphose?  Do you think the metagame is simply friendlier to it now?  Your opening post basically reads, "Hai guys!  I bet no one ever thought of using Helm to go all-out Tendrils on turn 1!"  I think that's why you're not seeing a lot of productive posting right now.  Whether it's true or not, your post reads like you need to learn everything about Tendrils decks from the ground up.

[Ancestralx]

Lemnear, wow your super arrogant. I would take that bet as I have also played storm decks since their inception. I have been playing since 1994. I believe I know a little about magic. Everyone who has actually sat across from me and watched me play this or has played it themselves once they figured out how it worked was like wow this is amazing. I just wish I could figure out how to get past force of will everygame because this would be the best deck in the format. for example my friend andy said basicly the same type of stuff you are saying, until he played it and now he has pretty much been working non stop on how to improve it he likes it so much. Possible board cards include normal cards for this type of deck. xantic swarm, orims chant, duress. Just because you dont know me or my name, dont assume I am bad. I try to be innovative. I thought up this list put it together and tweaked it till it stopped winning on turn three and started winning on turn one!! If you have play tested it over and over and you get differnt results then me please feel free to discuss those but I am betting you havent even touched this deck but will continue to talk about why its bad because its not the normal grim long or something similar.

[M.Solymossy]

Wow!! You know what is really useful before commenting on something that you have never played?!!! Um... Playing it.

There is no reason to play it because we can read and realize how awful a list is.   

Helm of awakening makes the whole deck tick.

So  this deck is a one-trick pony, losing to anything from duress to spell snare.

I am a first time poster and I appreciate at least that you replied as no one else did, but at least proxy it up on workstation or real life and see how many times you win on turn one. And see how bad thorn or sphere hurt really bad since helm decreases the cost each time you play one. I have tested this deck quite a bit and like belcher it wins on turn one a lot of the time. I am not going to claim a number b/c I am not sure what it is. But I will play you for money against belcher if I always get to go first b/c my deck wins that often on first turn.  

I'll pay you money if you EVER win a tournament with a deck like this.  I mean come on!  "This deck wins against a Goldfish on turn 1".   Just to humor you, I DID*** throw this on workstation quicky, and the turn 1 percentage is ridiculously bad. 

in 30 games:
Mulligans to 6: 9
Mulligans to 5:  17
Mulligans PAST 5:  7


Here are cards you don't want ever in your opening hand.  56 Cards that are not Helm of Awakening.

In all seriousness....

You are playing 7 rituals and NO YAWGMOTH'S BARGAIN!?!?!?!?  I can Understand this in BobTendrils, as you're playing a slow game, but this deck is TURN 1 or bust, and you've busted before playing a game, because you don't play bargain.

Where is Lions Eye Diamond?   And Mind's Desire?   Get Sensei's Top out of this deck. It's awful.  Same with Manamorphose.   If the deck wants Tolarian Academy bad enough that you will run crop rotation to find it, maybe it's time to play with good cards.  You're playing Demonic Consultation yet you'll need to find  1-ofs more often than not, and Tendrils is a 2of, which is VERY dangerous (I've lost via DC for tendrils when I had 2 in d eck before, and sometimes 3!)

Worse of all is Channel. WTF WHY?!      If you have channel in any decklist, it better be monogreen stax or belcher.  And only one of those I wouldn't lol at.




to sum um my post....

Wiskey Tango Foxtrot???

[oneofchaos]

As long as you raise your right hand and agree that if I show you a force of will, you solemnly swear to scoop it up (as you said fow = you lose), I'll be happy.  Thats basically what you said.  But seriously lets list possible disruption that might hurt your deck:

Force of will
Duress
Chalice of the void
Thoughtseize
Thorn
Sphere
Stifle
Trinishpere
Cabal therapy
Unmask

I won't even begin to say the fact that 28 force of wills in worlds would have kept your deck out of the top 8.  I shouldn't mention the 13 duresses that were played.  I'm also assuming you only win half of your coin flips and that half the time your on the draw.  If that's the case you'll lose game 1 due to disruption, you'll win game 2 (if no fow), and you'll lose g3 again to some more turn 1 disruption.  So that means you should win half of your matches all the time.  Belcher is just so much better than this because it CAN win on turn 1 through disruption (which means if it's more efficient at it's job) and it can also win 1-2 turns later from failing to win turn 1.  Some of your opening hands are going to be so awful that you mull into oblivion.  Ritual, ritual, ritual, sphere/star, lands isn't appealing at all.  Also you talk about the high turn 1 kill with this deck, wouldn't a 56 card deck be better at it's job?  Get those street wraiths in the deck.  Also since your mana base allows access to an Empty the warrens, you'd almost be better off using it as an answer to meddling mage. 

The deck you created is essentially a coin flip deck, however you've rigged the coin against you.  Your playing against a field dominated by force of will yet you say you auto scoop to it?  Find a way around it.

[forests failed you]

Busted.  I swear by the moon and the sun in the sky.

[Demonic Attorney]

This thread is very close to being locked for poor discussion.  Please keep the Ad Hominem attacks off the boards.  -DA

[Lemnear]

Lemnear, wow your super arrogant. I would take that bet as I have also played storm decks since their inception. I have been playing since 1994. I believe I know a little about magic. Everyone who has actually sat across from me and watched me play this or has played it themselves once they figured out how it worked was like wow this is amazing. I just wish I could figure out how to get past force of will everygame because this would be the best deck in the format. for example my friend andy said basicly the same type of stuff you are saying, until he played it and now he has pretty much been working non stop on how to improve it he likes it so much. Possible board cards include normal cards for this type of deck. xantic swarm, orims chant, duress. Just because you dont know me or my name, dont assume I am bad. I try to be innovative. I thought up this list put it together and tweaked it till it stopped winning on turn three and started winning on turn one!! If you have play tested it over and over and you get differnt results then me please feel free to discuss those but I am betting you havent even touched this deck but will continue to talk about why its bad because its not the normal grim long or something similar.

Uh,uh, calling me arrogant while calling me an idiot, who never tried to play a deck before posting 'bout. Your pretty wacky list with many good cards but a horrible configuration combined with the style of posting and presentation (please, don't get it personal again) leave me with 2 ideas. Either you're pretty new to vintage (playing since '94 does not mean playing vintage and vintage sometimes is not really ... MTG  ) and your sight due to disruption is still a bit narrow or you simply can't or won't see the problems of that deck. The "no FoW - I win" topic is a perfect example.

You're right, I don't know you, I never met you and I'm not trying to judge you and that's the reason I posted some improvement strategies, maybe in a harsh way, but that's my way to say "something went terrible wrong, dude". I did not ignore you and think "let him live in his happy place" ... that would be kinda arrogant. In my opinion innovation is not simply doing it the other way round ... it's improvement, not changing the direction. Moreover I, and some other posters too, are sure that your way does not make the deck better, faster nor more resistant ... but the opposite. May there is a possibility to play a long-style deck without protection but somethere between Top and Channel you left the trail, head for the jungle...

[Ancestralx]

I posted above that there was a lions eye diamond in the deck but I meant in place of regrowth not channel. Sorry. I have had to mulligan before but never as much as the guy above states? Wow. I would love to add a bargain but dont know how to fit it. I would definitely love to hear what the guy who tested my deck on workstation thinks of how to add bargain or sideboard appropriately. My friend just started playing this and has fell in love with it. He is working on a version with more disruption. He has been trying Land grant to make it fewer lands and more like belcher but when we playtested it It did not seem anywhere near as consistent or good as this version. I have playtested this at least 4 or 5 hundred times and with and without a board. I have never had to mulligan as much as the above poster says? Either I have miswritten my list or workstation is not shuffling well maybe I am unsure? Many people have played my deck and those statistic dont even seem close? Like I said maybe its my fault I will have to check my current list card for card and repost. Thank you for you input. Here is the current sideboard but it seems to slow the deck down which I dont like. Maybe I am boarding wrong or something? Anyways:

4 Orims chant
3 Xantic Swarm
4 Hurykles Recall
4 Chain of Vapor

Thank you for your imput and even for your critisms.

P.S. Brian Demars You crack me up!!

[Implacable]

Ancestral, would you please stop responding so passive aggressively to critiques?  I guarantee you that everything that 13Nova and Anusien et al. have said in this thread occurred to any experienced player who read your opening post.  Basically, what you've done is reconstruct Meandeck Tendrils, spliced it with Egg-Tendrils, and then reduced its Turn 1 kill percentage with cards like Necro.  Your deck really does loses to 1 of a host of commonly played disruption spells, as oneofchaos cheerfully enumerated, and that's why people are critical of it. 

[Ancestralx]

I want to apologize to everyone who has been posting. I was misunderstanding what some of you were saying and I seem to be antagonizing everyone another poster has informed me. I understand what you mean about not being cards that win on turn one. Necropotence can never win on turn one. I understand. I was playing it as back up. And yes Chalice, duress, and force hurt. I have not been trying to be passive agressive. Sorry. This was just a test deck. I had really good goldfish results and if you go first a lot of times its like goldfishing. I just wanted suggestions on how to improve it but it seems that is impossible? Like I said before I apologize to anyone I have antagonized. Thanks for your post. I have been testing out bargain over necro. But I have pretty much decided to scrap the deck unless someone else figures out something amazing or something new is printed.