Er, my deck

[Sean Ryan]

So what do people think about cutting red for black?

[TopSecret]

This deck is similar to one that Almighty played to some top 8's a bit ago.
It was a different metagame at that point, so it's a little outdated, but it could give you some ideas.

Here's one of his reports: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35587.0

The 6th place decklist is a version that splashed red: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35825.0

[Sean Ryan]

Sweet!

I didn't know that concept has already proven itself.  The Ponies are nice tech for Oath, but probably in the SB now.  I think this could be a real alternative to Fish for the budget player who wants to hate on the metagame.

Vintage Haterator!!! FtW!

[Schonkreuz]

I knew there had to be something out there like it because I mean...it is really had to do anything original anymore. I'm really grateful for all of the help that I've gotten and if I ever choose to play this deck again I'm sure it will do a lot better with the changes that I've made.

[Bongo]

So what do people think about cutting red for black?

Definitely an idea worth pursuing.
However, you lose Gorilla Shaman, REB and Ancient Grudge from the sideboard, and possibly Pyrostatic Pillar. Maybe it's better than the red splash, I'd like to hear some testing results here before making a judgement.

I suggested a GWr version because I wanted to keep as much as possible of her original deck. I'm running Shaman over Kird Ape now, and CES with Rancor has been nothing short of amazing.

[Cavius The Great]

I have actually...tis why glowrider is in there. It is a thorn creature :3. And when it comes to playing a first turn null rod that is the spirit guides duty, I'm just weary of playing things that get shut down by a very important card in my deck.

I didn't even notice the spirit guides, good call. Maybe you should up the count of Null Rod to 4. It seems really important in the deck.

Have you considered Terravore? Seems nice with LftL and strip mine effects plus fetches. It can probably get fairly big in this sort of deck.

[Schonkreuz]

It has already been decided, I just haven't actually updated the list yet. I've been a bit busy working on another deck for the next ICBM open.

[LordHomerCat]

It has already been decided, I just haven't actually updated the list yet. I've been a bit busy working on another deck for the next ICBM open.

Where are you located anyway that you're planning to make the trip up?

[Twaun007]

It has already been decided, I just haven't actually updated the list yet. I've been a bit busy working on another deck for the next ICBM open.

Where are you located anyway that you're planning to make the trip up?

Why don't you just ask her for he phone number too Mr. Catlord.

[AngryPheldagrif]

It has already been decided, I just haven't actually updated the list yet. I've been a bit busy working on another deck for the next ICBM open.

Where are you located anyway that you're planning to make the trip up?

Why don't you just ask her for he phone number too Mr. Catlord.

Maybe he clicked on TMD instead of AdultFriendFinder in his bookmarks?



Though to be fair, Jimmy IS dead sexy.

[LordHomerCat]

It has already been decided, I just haven't actually updated the list yet. I've been a bit busy working on another deck for the next ICBM open.

Where are you located anyway that you're planning to make the trip up?

Why don't you just ask her for he phone number too Mr. Catlord.

Ha funny.  I was more interested because if she was coming from somewhere around OH, it might allow those of you who can't drive (cough Twaun cough) to make the trip up, since Jerry said he's probably out.

[Duncan]

From the way she constructs her deck i would guess she's from somewhere in Kentucky... *thinks thoroughly*... Most likely Louisville.

[Schonkreuz]

Er, I'm from louisville, ky...I'm am very certain I have that in my profile though >laughs<.

And what do you mean by the way I construct my deck.

[Duncan]

I meant nothing with "the way you construct your deck". I was just being cynical. He could see in your profile you was from louisville so it seemed to me like a stupid question 

Btw, I like the deck, a week ago I played a deck with a strategy comparable to yours in a tournament here in holland. My deck is RWb instead of RWG. However, I think Gaddock Teeg and Goyf justify running green.

The strategy I had was to play lots of disruptive creatures to create a softlock and easily drop chalice 1/2. I splashed B for hide/seek as an answer to resolved robots. I could PM the list if anyone is interested.

My list was heavily tuned for a Slaver/Long meta, I have a favorable matchup against both decks. Sadly I got paired against fish 4 times and the other round against landstill. I got 8th with 9 points, but there was more in it would I've gotten better pairings.

[Schonkreuz]

Yea, we had a long conversation about choosing red or black and in the end we thought that R would make the deck more powerful. The green part is very awesome, every time I drop a goyf everyone simply replies with "Wow, that guy is big." I think that the color choices for my deck work well with each other and I don't I will change them if I ever play this deck again.

By the way, hide/seek is AWESOME, I love that card and I was sad when I couldn't use the seek part in this deck so I didn't SB the card like I was hoping to.

[KnowmaD]

I love these builds and always have had at least a few variants handy.  Originally it was out of lack of power for me also.  Then because I needed something to test my power on when no one else is around.  Top it off.  The look after smoking a powered deck is priceless.

 A few things.  First, your right.  Don't let anyone talk you out off using the Elvish Spirit Guides. I personally use a 3/2 configuration. 3 green 2 red 1 red on the bored to switch.  You run a little more red than me.  3/r 2/g probably.

Cold Eyed Selkie is astounding when it hits with rancor. So far I'm very happy with the card.  Its done what I want, give green some draw.  Speaking of drawing.  Do you have any problems with glowriders and manamorphose being bad with each other.  When I saw manamorphose spoiled  I wanted to throw these in an almost did until I realized the synergy was not what I wanted.  I use sphere tech ( thorn of amethyst , sphere of resistance ).  Because of this I did go down the path of black for Streetwraiths an now Faerie Macabre. I don't necessarily recommend this.  The red is very strong.  I say it cause someone had mentioned this earlier . 

 Also I play with Decree of Justice.  This card could work wonders in the manamorphose  slot.  Or any for that mater.  Have you tried this yet?

   
                                                                                                                              build on
                                                                                                                            Knowmad                                                                                                                   

[Schonkreuz]

I've actually never had a problem with glowriders+ any spells...amazingly. I guess there just aren't enough spells in the deck for it to cause any interference. And no, I had never thought of decree of justice. I'm sure late game if the game is tied up some angels might help things out. I'm guessing you cycle it mostly?

[KnowmaD]

Usually I do cycle because of the all the spheres around me.  Got to say I get 4/4s ,yes more than one even, lots of games also. The end game is where this shines most. 
                                                                                                                         Knowmad

[Implacable]

I've been playing this deck for kicks on MWS, and it just crushes Slaver (at least pre-board.  Post, they often have nasty crap).  On the other hand, Long rolls it up.  I'm thinking that maybe the Black list might indeed be better, so we can get some Hide/Seek and Duress action (even though I hate Duress). 

[Schonkreuz]

I'm sure that there must be -something- that you can do other then completely changing a color >thinks<. I understand that most any tendrils variant aims to be fast and so whatever would be done has to happen quickly...let me think on it and research some cards. I'll post back later.

[Sean Ryan]

I'm sure that there must be -something- that you can do other then completely changing a color

Don't take 'your deck' as the starting point of design or any colors that may be in it.  Rather, approach the situation from the strategical point of, "How do I capitalize on the inherent features of the current Vintage meta game as defined by TPS and Slaver.  This will then guide you to various tactics (choice of colors/cards).

The maindeck needs to be designed to beat both Slaver and TPS, otherwise you might as well stay home.  The sideboard deals with Workshop/Ichorid/Oath.

You must start interacting on turn 1, especially in a deck without Force of Will.  Duress/Seize gives you the window of time to stay in the game and get your 2 drop disrupting creatures on board.  Even then you are fighting an uphill battle. 

Red helps the Workshop match more than anything else.  Other than that it does not help to solve your weaknesses, but bolsters you in areas that are already strong.

I realize what this thread is titled, and if thats all you want, so be it.  However, I think you have stumbled upon something bigger: an answer to a well defined metagame.  If you can open your mind to it.

[Schonkreuz]

I don't mind opening to my to it at all, I was just wondering if there was a way to possibly keep the colors the same. -Though- the more I think about it the more trying out black sounds neat. (At the start of coming up with this it was actually black not red ...One of my favorite silly cards is Hide/Seek heh....)

I'll have to cut the color and try out black for the sake of testing out all of possibilities.

[GoodMorning]

If you had to play this deck tomorrow, what changes would you make to your original list?

[Schonkreuz]

If I had to play it tomorrow? Well,it would probably be something like(this is a VERY rough and off the top of my head list of changes).

-4 Kird Ape
-4 Mogg Fanatic
-2 SSG
+2 ESG
-3 Magus
+4 Duress
+3 Dark Confidant
+2 Hide/Seek
+1 Mindtwist
-3 Manamorhpse
+4 Dark Ritual

** Because of the added spells there might also have to be some changes with Glowriders

[KnowmaD]

According to earlier posts  the Glowriders + nulls  an teegs was the big hurt.  Also against storm, what you said you wanted a better match with, glowriders are solid.  Storms the main reason I use sphere tech.  More than one type helps against echoing truth.

On that note. Why dark ritual. They seem good for early artifact/ duress but..?  They seem bad once your in top deck mode. Unless you decided for one or two decrees. Mindtwist ,ya ok.

[Schonkreuz]

:\ Like I said that was just something I spat out to respond to the post, sure there was thought involved but it is going to take a bit more thinking for a concrete answer. I was iffy about rits when I typed it, though I am uncertain of what to replace it with.

[Sean Ryan]

You start with 4 Confidants and some number of Duress/Thoughtseize.

Dark Ritual doesn't fit in this deck.  You need to cast Mindtwist for 3 if it is to be worth it.  The 4 mana to do so prohibits its value in this kind of deck.  Drawing it in your opening hand is bad.  You almost always want it to be Duress.  Not to mention its a huge Drain target.

This IS what you should start with:

Spells: 14
7 Duress/Seize
3 Rod
4 Stp

Creatures: 23
4 Goyf
4 Confidant
3 Teeg
4 True Beleiver
3 Kataki
3 Glowrider
2 Aven Mindcensor

Mana:23
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
6 Fetch
5 Strip/Waste
4 Lotus/Moxes or ESGs

SB
4 Leyline
2 Jailer
4 Ronom Unicorn
4 Oxidize
1 Kataki

 

[EnialisLiadon]

I think four rods are a must.  Resolving a Null Rod is just a huge kick in the junk for the top decks, and you usually want to draw one asap.  I think its disrupting power is worth the possibility of seeing more than one.

[KnowmaD]

Consider the Streetwraiths.  Since I have been playing them they have been solid.  The first few rounds they dig well.  After that 3/4 swampwalker  can hit hard with your other smashers.  Most people don't play them because of dark confidant/ thoughtsieze .  They too are a great card to look at (confidant).  It depends on your goal an play style.

I really want to post my list, I' m close just not there. When I do I hope you an everyone interested can help.  All of us on this same wave have something. Now we just need fallow through.

Also, after many changes, the only thing left for me in my main thats white is the swords an decrees.  They are so good.  I 'm just not convinced they warrant the color any more an was thinking about red.  G/R/B .  My board would have to change also (teeg an kataki can smoke fools not prepared).  Just  something I'm float'n around.  What do you all think?  I am so confused.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                   keep on kick'n ass
                                                                                                                           Knowmad

opps should have prof read better. Think its right now. If not whatever.

[EnialisLiadon]

There aren't any Street Wraiths in the above list, but maybe I missed them after looking through it around five times.

You're right; I would be hesitant to run the wraith with Confidants, fetches and thoughtseizes.  Also, a 3/4 for five mana just doesn't scream "effective" to me.  I'd have a difficult time cutting stuff for Wraiths--I'd rather just cut the middleman and run the cards that would be cut for Wraiths.

But I haven't tested this deck at all, and I have little experience with this archetype.  Just offering my thoughts.