TheManaDrain.com
September 24, 2025, 08:26:35 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Print  
Author Topic: Online Vendors and Order Canceling  (Read 13088 times)
LordHomerCat
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1397

Lord+Homer+Cat
View Profile
« Reply #60 on: September 11, 2008, 10:17:22 pm »

As far as your example about home escrow, you are comparing a regulated market with an unregulated market.  Also, you are skipping the entire negotiation process in homebuying, which to me is the better example.  If you advertise your house at $200,000 in the paper, but the market goes up overnight(only been going down recently) are you required to sell your house for $200,000 to the first buyer? Of course not. But they Offered it!!! Doesn't matter, common sense overruled you, and you do not take a huge loss.  You would sift through the offers to find one that meets your needs.  In these examples, the online stores had goods that went up in value dramatically, and they responded.  Did the respond correctly? usually not. Did the customer come away happy? usually not.

That's not the right comparison though.  A more apt one would be as such:

I advertise my house for some price.  A seller contacts me, looks at it, etc.  Then, we AGREE ON A PRICE, and we sign a contract saying we're good to go.  However, before he takes delivery of the house, but after he has already put some money towards it, I find out that I could have sold it for a lot more, so I tell him that the price has gone up and unless he wants to pay that, I'm not actually going to sell him the house anymore. 

See, saying that it was offered at that price is not a good comparison, because the stores did more than offer it.  In many of these cases, they actually charged the credit card and everything.  At that point, the buyer has fulfilled their end of the contract, and it is incredibly unethical on the part of the seller to just skip out of their half.  In the example above, don't you think the seller acted in a very unethical (and probably illegal, but IANAL) matter?  Why is it OK if you run a card shop then?
Logged

Team Meandeck

Team Serious

Quote from: spider
LordHomerCat is just mean, and isnt really justifying his statements very well, is he?
mike_bergeron
Basic User
**
Posts: 257


View Profile
« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2008, 07:56:28 am »

As far as your example about home escrow, you are comparing a regulated market with an unregulated market.  Also, you are skipping the entire negotiation process in homebuying, which to me is the better example.  If you advertise your house at $200,000 in the paper, but the market goes up overnight(only been going down recently) are you required to sell your house for $200,000 to the first buyer? Of course not. But they Offered it!!! Doesn't matter, common sense overruled you, and you do not take a huge loss.  You would sift through the offers to find one that meets your needs.  In these examples, the online stores had goods that went up in value dramatically, and they responded.  Did the respond correctly? usually not. Did the customer come away happy? usually not.

That's not the right comparison though.  A more apt one would be as such:

I advertise my house for some price.  A seller contacts me, looks at it, etc.  Then, we AGREE ON A PRICE, and we sign a contract saying we're good to go.  However, before he takes delivery of the house, but after he has already put some money towards it, I find out that I could have sold it for a lot more, so I tell him that the price has gone up and unless he wants to pay that, I'm not actually going to sell him the house anymore. 

See, saying that it was offered at that price is not a good comparison, because the stores did more than offer it.  In many of these cases, they actually charged the credit card and everything.  At that point, the buyer has fulfilled their end of the contract, and it is incredibly unethical on the part of the seller to just skip out of their half.  In the example above, don't you think the seller acted in a very unethical (and probably illegal, but IANAL) matter?  Why is it OK if you run a card shop then?

This happens all the time in the housing market. This is why you have escrow and real estate lawyers to handle it.  Does anyone know any magic the gathering attorneys? Your example uses the fact a contract was signed, which is great for the buyer.  However when you use a website, you are agreeing to their terms and conditions.  So, your contract argument is out the window, and cannot mean anything in these cases- by ordering from them you agree to their conditions.  It sucks for individual buyers trying to game the system, but that is just too bad.  People want the flexibility to order online, but they also want to be able to make amazing deals.  which one is more important to you?

We have already had several people come on and explain how this happens in different industries, and the fact it exists to protect the business' interest in continuing to sell cards.  Some of the opinions on this thread make it seem like card stores should not be allowed to make a profit, or they should only be allowed to make a small profit.  Why even run a store if you cannot keep it profitable in some ways?  In many ways, these people are providing a service that is in fact, very dangerous.  However unlikely, their entire stocks of cards could be worth nothing tomorrow if Hasbro shut down MTG to focus on core business.  (unlikely, but possible)  Now on top of that, people are demanding they can game the system to make profit from them and leave them without stock to assist other consumers.  I guess I may be alone on this ship, but this is insane to me.  If everyone was allowed to make such deals from the online vendors, at what point do they cease to exist?  The best part is that people who read this site, or people who are serious MTG collectors or tournament players most likely make up only a small percentage of users/buyers.  The casual scene is much more profitable, and it seems to me the sites should cater to them and not "us". 

there is a difference between someone fraudulently selling cards, and someone stopping an order because it would be bad for their business.
Logged
andrewpate
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 483


EarlCobble
View Profile
« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2008, 10:03:40 am »

Again refraining from actual legal analysis, I can say that courts do not assess the value or potential value of collectibles or art objects when determining damages.  The contract must be two-sided and both parties must understand it, but if you sell the Mona Lisa for $5, with no fraud involved, you have no recourse.  The vast majority of the time, courts do not care about a deal being fair, simply about its being both two-sided (the catchphrase is "bargained-for exchange") and clearly stated.

In addition to the references cited by Demonic Attorney, I would also suggest that you look into the doctrine of promissory estoppel.  In some states, an otherwise-unenforceable promise can become binding if you somehow injured yourself under the assumption that it would be fulfilled (like moving across the country for a job offer, including quitting your old job and selling your house, only to have the offer, which could normally be rescinded without issue, taken back at that late point).  This is another method of recovery sometimes used in cases of questionable contracts.
Logged
mike_bergeron
Basic User
**
Posts: 257


View Profile
« Reply #63 on: September 12, 2008, 10:12:33 am »

Again refraining from actual legal analysis, I can say that courts do not assess the value or potential value of collectibles or art objects when determining damages.  The contract must be two-sided and both parties must understand it, but if you sell the Mona Lisa for $5, with no fraud involved, you have no recourse.  The vast majority of the time, courts do not care about a deal being fair, simply about its being both two-sided (the catchphrase is "bargained-for exchange") and clearly stated.

In addition to the references cited by Demonic Attorney, I would also suggest that you look into the doctrine of promissory estoppel.  In some states, an otherwise-unenforceable promise can become binding if you somehow injured yourself under the assumption that it would be fulfilled (like moving across the country for a job offer, including quitting your old job and selling your house, only to have the offer, which could normally be rescinded without issue, taken back at that late point).  This is another method of recovery sometimes used in cases of questionable contracts.

Andrew, without getting too specific, would this also be the case in small claims court? (the only place I could possibly see this going to, unless it was fraud on a wide scale which are not talking about)
Logged
andrewpate
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 483


EarlCobble
View Profile
« Reply #64 on: September 12, 2008, 01:16:45 pm »

First, let me clarify my previous point:  sometimes a jury is asked to decide value, for example if you owned the Mona Lisa but had it stolen from you and then destroyed.  You would sue the thief for some value supposedly equal to the painting.  What I meant to say was that courts do not assess value for the purpose of determining whether a contract is valid, again excepting fraud, meaning that a price change is not breach of contract per se unless there are other factors making the original contract valid.  Contracts for sale of goods are different from other contracts and are subject to a number of additional guidelines.

As for small claims court, all limited-jurisdiction courts are bound by the same precedents which apply to normal courts.  If anything, those judges are less inclined to challenge something due to a lot of factors, not the least of which is that their opinions are not normally published.  The real question, the thing which requires actual consultation with an attorney, is whether the original contract is valid.  This is complex but objective.  The type of damages received will be a far subsidiary question and one left in no small part up to the court itself.
Logged
mike_bergeron
Basic User
**
Posts: 257


View Profile
« Reply #65 on: September 12, 2008, 02:06:37 pm »

SNIP

Andrew, DA, thank you for your time to add some decent reasoning behind this thread, and correcting my wrong posts. I think at this point it is obvious that this matter is cloudy at best, and would be up to the individual transactions- and also which state they occur in.  However, at least the thread is back on issues instead of taking obvious swats at companies for no reason. 

Possibly the best conclusion would be a "best case" scenario in which you can try to resolve individual transaction issues, like which steps are best to take to resolve the matter satisfactory to you and the vendor. 
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.036 seconds with 18 queries.