[FreeArticle] Post-6/20 Drain Tendrils: Staying Ahead of the Curve by Cody Vinci

[Ufactor]

I don't know where you're getting your statistics from, but I don't believe that at all. If Gifts has to find draw spells some of the time and the end result of Gifts is just casting draw spells, how is it good 99% of the time and Scrying 93% of the time? I know these percantages aren't meant to be exact but rather illustrative, but my point is that if you EVER have to use Gifts to get draw spells, it can't possibly be 99% to 93% because the end result is going to be the same exact thing Scrying would have done: draw cards. If Scrying doesn't hit anything with its draws, Gifts for draw and then drawing isn't going to be any better (probability-wise). I've tested the shit out of Gifts and there are a ton of situations where you must get draw simply b/c there is nothing better to get. In these situation, Scrying is pretty much always better. In situations where Gifts would have won the game on the spot and you have Scyring, a resolved Scrying in its place wins the game with such an overwhelming percantage that I don't care that I didn't have Gifts. The reason Gifts loses to Scrying for me is because of situations where Gifts sets you back a turn because you have to find draw instead of just cast it with Scrying.

Also, you fail to mention an important scenario: You need to win next turn.

If you have the choice of Gifts in hand and Scrying in hand, there are often situations where you cannot find a Gifts pile that will win you the game next turn. In these cases, you need to get draw spells in order to put the win together next turn. If you had Scrying instead, you could have cast a huge draw spell at end of turn and then untapped and had a much better chance of winning. With Gifts in these situations, you tutor for draw and then untap and what have you accomplished? You've effectively set youself back a turn and this can be huge when you have pressure to win.

Actually, I find that the opposite is true.  First, I almost never tutor for draw in a Gifts pile, except if it's mid-game and I have nothing better to do.  Second, the "probability" that I usually have with Scrying (or big draw spells in general) is getting random bits of random that usually do nothing that will actually help me win.  You can count on Gifts to get you tutors, fast mana, combo enablers, and win conditions - because you set it up that way.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

the gifts pile i was illustrating for masta was for an extremely bad senario in which you tutors and bombo have for some reason all been used up. It shows that if by some act of god this extremely statistically unlikely sanario happens there is still a pile that can put you way a head when you should be losing.

[TripleAgent]

Well put TripleAgent, that's exactly the point I was trying to make.  I should have been better with my word choice and used something like 'almost always' instead of 'always'.  Excuse my poor penmanship!  When you're in top deck mode and you rip a Scrying, odds are it's getting cast for at least 4-5+.  I can't recall ever getting burned with a draw full of mana sources.  It's possible, sure.  It's just that it's more likely I'll have more bad Gifts piles than I will bad Scrying draws.

I can't really comment on boarding with this deck because I'm terrible at it.  As far as not bringing in DSC, I do this against Oath and other TPS and it seems to work out pretty well. 

V/R
Masta

Someone please explain to me why playing Gifts/Scrying from the topdeck is such an issue.  Drain Tendrils has more drawing and permission (Duress vary between main deck and sideboard) then EVERY other deck in the format.  You should be ahead on cards all day.  If not, you're doing it wrong.

Scrying is definitely a good card, and I don't fault you for running it. I tend to classify it as another "probability tutor" as cody mentioned earlier, and the problem with that is "probability", opposed to the absolution of gifts. What it comes down to is that I'm a pretty unlucky guy so I prefer the control.

This.  Actual tutors are clutch. There are many places where I'll draw a bunch of cards and get four lands, an off color mox, and no gas, when all I really needed was Tinker or Will.

This is my point. What would you put in a Gifts pile in a build without Recoup and ever get Tinker or Will? Unless they had bounce for DSC and counter backup in hand. Against people with a clue, I really feel Gifts is inferior without Recoup.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

having play recoup, I just find in unnecessary. The plays can be made either way.

[RaleighNCTourneys]

I don't know why the advocates of Gifts Ungiven are boasting about how it's always so good. I have no problem disagreeing over a card choice, but at least acknowledge its weaknesses. Like Scrying, Gifts isn't always good and the plays (with Gifts) can not always be made without Recoup.

It's a matter of weighing the advantages and disadvantages of either card and coming to a conclusion, which we as humans clearly are not very good at since there are so many factors to consider.

[Ufactor]

Recoup is irrelevant.  Slaver and TPS, especially among the pundits, breaks the buh-geezies out of Gifts, without a Recoup in sight.  Just putting four broken cards and getting, at least, two is good enough to run it.

Besides, during Swiss rounds, most people DON'T know what they're doing, so The Jedi Mind Trick works to make them give you what you want.

[Webster]

Recoup is irrelevant.  Slaver and TPS, especially among the pundits, breaks the buh-geezies out of Gifts, without a Recoup in sight.  Just putting four broken cards and getting, at least, two is good enough to run it.

Besides, during Swiss rounds, most people DON'T know what they're doing, so The Jedi Mind Trick works to make them give you what you want.

You can't compare the way slaver and tps uses gifts to how it is used by drain tendrils. Slaver has goblin welder with robots and tps has a at least 5 tutors (6 if you count merchant scroll-->mystical) to get yawgmoth's will and break you in half.

Using the "bad player" reasoning to justify the [in/ex]clusion of a card/strategy is a good way to almost get there at a tournament. Almost getting there really isn't an option for me. I'd rather come up with reasons to include cards that will function as needed when I'm in a pinch. You should be able to beat an idiot almost every time so what is the point of using that quality as the reason to play card X or Y?

[Ufactor]

Using the "bad player" reasoning to justify the [in/ex]clusion of a card/strategy is a good way to almost get there at a tournament. Almost getting there really isn't an option for me. I'd rather come up with reasons to include cards that will function as needed when I'm in a pinch. You should be able to beat an idiot almost every time so what is the point of using that quality as the reason to play card X or Y?

I'm not seriously suggesting that mediocrity is a good reason to play bad cards.  The thing about Gifts is that you can *usually* come up with four cards that are equally helpful - even in Drain Tendrils.  It's just that with against a bad player, it won't matter what you have in your deck because you can always feign a scenario that doesn't actually exist.

There is something to be said, however, about giving yourself an easy match against bad players.  Playing nine hours of Magic is usually a grueling experience.  All things being equal, there is a big difference between making it to finals completely exhausted and having time to eat, hydrate, wizz, and chillax because you murdered all of your preliminary opponents.

[LordHomerCat]

Using the "bad player" reasoning to justify the [in/ex]clusion of a card/strategy is a good way to almost get there at a tournament. Almost getting there really isn't an option for me. I'd rather come up with reasons to include cards that will function as needed when I'm in a pinch. You should be able to beat an idiot almost every time so what is the point of using that quality as the reason to play card X or Y?

I'm not seriously suggesting that mediocrity is a good reason to play bad cards.  The thing about Gifts is that you can *usually* come up with four cards that are equally helpful - even in Drain Tendrils.  It's just that with against a bad player, it won't matter what you have in your deck because you can always feign a scenario that doesn't actually exist.

There is something to be said, however, about giving yourself an easy match against bad players.  Playing nine hours of Magic is usually a grueling experience.  All things being equal, there is a big difference between making it to finals completely exhausted and having time to eat, hydrate, wizz, and chillax because you murdered all of your preliminary opponents.

I'm pretty sure that the best way to get an "easy match against bad players" is to play a good deck and probably more importantly, play it well.  Running a card that you cna only maximize against people who suck is not really either of those.  I have no particular opinion on Gifts vs. Scrying in this deck as I haven't played it, but in general I have found it is incredibly rare that resolving Gifts Ungiven does not win you the game.  And most of the times it didn't, it was because the player did not choose 4 good cards.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

this deck draws a lot of cards, eventually your going to get a counter or two and a tutor. If your playing a list like soly's, a duress and a counter. Being able to gifts for lotus, Petal, toa and tolarian is an instant win, some times much earlier than you should be able to wit this deck. In my mind gifts is just more precise and goes more broken.

[Ufactor]

I'm going to post something dorky... My favorite Intuition pile of the week is (with Tendrils in hand, and Mox Jet) Chain of Vapor, Rebuild, Yawgmoth's Will.  Intuition was the only gas in my hand, but I still got to tap out, bounce all my artifacts and get lethal storm - TWICE.

I probably shouldn't be so giddy about this, but it's really neato.

[Drackean]

Hey guys,

As a first post, I would like to ask a simple and short question. I've been playing Soly's list for some weeks by now and I just love it, though I'm having an extremely hard time in the UR Landstill matchup. Is that normal ? It seems my opponent won't stop drawing into answers and counters standstills after standstills. Does anyone could explain his impressions on this matchup ?

[God_Campbell]

Landstill is a solid deck, add in a competent player and you have a recipe for a bad match up, the deck has alto of counters and such it will be a tough match up for Drain tendrils player.

[Ufactor]

Landstill is probably the only deck in the format that can out counter this deck.  I would suggest that if you are facing tons of Landstill in your area, then you should probably be "going guys" with your sideboard by cutting the duress/thoughtseize effects.

[M.Solymossy]

The answer to make Drain tendrils the best deck in the format, with a lot of testing, was actually Fastbond.  It still makes your draw chains a lot easier as well as almost always making will lethal, even without Lotus.  It goes well into Intuition piles, and by going into green, you gain access to REgrowth.  I was going to keep this secret within GWS, but the new unrestrictions make this pointless, as I think everyone realizes that Flame-Vault is the future of this deck.

[Smmenen]

Flame Vault will not work.    Flame Fusillade is not being restored.   Time Vault will not untap at any time.  It will only have an upkeep trigger.   However, you WILL be able to untap Time Vault with other effects, such as Twiddle. 

[TripleAgent]

The answer to make Drain tendrils the best deck in the format, with a lot of testing, was actually Fastbond.  It still makes your draw chains a lot easier as well as almost always making will lethal, even without Lotus.  It goes well into Intuition piles, and by going into green, you gain access to REgrowth. 

Interesting, tell me more, please

[InfectedMushroom]

Since getting back into Magic, the Drain Tendrils deck has been my number one point of focus. It fits my play style very well and I'm interested in this addition of green. By gaining access to Fastbond and Regrowth, what are you cutting for them? Since Fastbond is included, would Gush fit in anywhere? I would be afraid of dropping too low on basic lands, but I can certainly see a valid list formed using green.

[M.Solymossy]

I split a mox today with DinosaursGoWrar(my joke of tarmogoyfs).   Here's the list... and I can't write much but I will say that fastbond was an absolute monster.  I lost to slaver and beat the Drain Tendrils mirror (Tabasco from GWS), painter (SpookyKid from ICBM) and a shop build, and then utterly destroyed oath in 2 of our 3 games in top 4 and split with dredge (since my match was awful). 

my list:


3 Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Tolarian Academy
10 Artifacts

2 Intuition
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Gush
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 tinker
1 Mind Twist
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Fastbond
1 Regrowth

Sideboard:
4 Tarmogoyfgoyfgoyf (he's a pokemon  in hiding!)
4 Duress
1 Hurkyls Recall
1 Rebuild
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Extirpate
1 Darkblast


Fastbond won me one game I shouldn't have.  I was countering Spheres becuase a Smokestack hit when I didn't have a force, and He eventually had it where I had Jet and Sol ring dying, and an Underground Sea, Vampiric tutor, and Yawgmoth's Will in hand.  The game had gone on so I had lotus  and petal  in the bin.  I vampired for Mana Crypt, and sacked my two artifacts.  Even with the mana I had, I couldn't have Killed him with the Sol ring, Lotus, Lotus petal, and Sol ring.  However, I sacrificed the lotus for Green, hit up fastbond, and suddenly I was 9 points of Damage lighter, and 6 Lands Deep. 

I also pulled ridiculous Gifts/Fact or Fiction piles because of Regrowth.

[IthilanorStPete]

Mind Twist? Srsly?

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Mind Twist? Srsly?

yeah srsly. it makes a lot of sense and people have run it before posting  decent results

[M.Solymossy]

I wanted a duress effect maindeck, but could only fit one.  My champs top8 list had 3 and I felt that it only improved one matchup, TPS.  I felt strong enough to cut them and add the 1 mind twist against the field, and sideboard duresses in matches they're good in.

I'm still having trouble with slaver.  Maybe it's play style, but it's definitely not skill.  Game 1 I blew my opponent out, game 2 I had turn 1 tinker, he fowed, I fowed, he fowed, then he had his tinker next turn.  Game 3 was long and dragged out and I didn't draw any business, having to drain his gifts and fof, burn for 8, and die to a game ending Willenium.  Extirpate is fired!

[M.Solymossy]

Mind Twist? Srsly?

Sorry for the double post, but the more I think of this, the more I think this guy here is an idiot.  Why don't you test my build and realize how much of a global player Mind Twist when compared to Duress as a 1of?

Okay Soly, you REALLY know better at this point than to call people idiots on this board, especially new members. Be a hero, not a zero. Verbal warning for disappointing me.

-Hi-Val (Doug)

[IthilanorStPete]

Mind Twist? Srsly?

Sorry for the double post, but the more I think of this, the more I think this guy here is an idiot.  Why don't you test my build and realize how much of a global player Mind Twist when compared to Duress as a 1of?

Okay Soly, you REALLY know better at this point than to call people idiots on this board, especially new members. Be a hero, not a zero. Verbal warning for disappointing me.

-Hi-Val (Doug)

Because a. I don't have the ability to test beyond MWS, which is notoriously unreliable, and b. I've always heard that Mind Twist is bad.

[Ufactor]

Mind Twist? Srsly?

Sorry for the double post, but the more I think of this, the more I think this guy here is an idiot.  Why don't you test my build and realize how much of a global player Mind Twist when compared to Duress as a 1of?

Okay Soly, you REALLY know better at this point than to call people idiots on this board, especially new members. Be a hero, not a zero. Verbal warning for disappointing me.

-Hi-Val (Doug)

Because a. I don't have the ability to test beyond MWS, which is notoriously unreliable, and b. I've always heard that Mind Twist is bad.

1) Mind Twist is Thoughtseize for x, only without the life loss

2) Mind Twist is Duress for x, only it is misdirect-able.

3) Tommy K used them in his sideboard, when he made it to the finals at Vintage Worlds.

4) Soly, also a Worlds finalist, is better than whoever you're currently bouncing ideas off.

Perhaps you should reconsider you stance :\

[M.Solymossy]

I've always heard that Mind Twist is bad.

The whole point of the mana drain isn't to make assumptions without and merit.  Test the card, then see who/what is bad.

[Masta]

Congratulations on finding success with Regrowth, Fastbond, and Mind Twist.  It's great to see both Regrowth and Twist getting dusted off for some action!

I've always felt that Mind Twist is an incredibly powered card that can the win the game just as easily as any other.  I realize that it's usually a terrible pull after the early game, but with DT it's just another bomb in the list that the opponent needs to deal with.  I've also noticed that the inclusion of these three cards greatly increases the power of Gifts Ungiven.

I've had less success with this build in testing compared to the older versions.  It could be because there's less draw, or it could be because I'm not proficient with this build.  Either way it's no secret that DT has a tough time with solid control decks, I think this list is even more fragile in that respect.  I'd like to see if this build keeps winning as we move forward.

V/R
Masta 

[beder]

In the very old days, mind twist was the most feared card. Especially when the "legend" set was released, drain and twist was "game over". There is a reason why it has even been banned during some years in vintage (if I am not wrong).

Even if it is surely not as determinant nowadays as it was then - many more broken cards or tutor to win back from a 0 or 1 card hand and many more cards that uses the graveyard - it is still pretty broken. I definitely think this is one of the most underplayed card.

One disadvantage is the "Misdirectionable" caracteristic of the card. But when it is played in conjunction with drain, one may often think that if opponent had misdirection, then he would have used it to counter the drain you played - before playing the mind twist.

In almost every drain deck I build, I try to add 2 mind twist main. Especially when I don't want to use duress effect, cause of the fetching underground first turn being pretty dangerous.

One of my favourite play since 1994 : start with mana and some accelerants, mind twist for 3 or 4 first turn, opponent discard 1 or 2 mana sources. Best mana denial ever

Think about it : a sorcery spell that would say "Blue+x : target player draw x card". No drawback, no condition. It would damn good. OK, mind twist is not exactly comparable and not as good, but on a pure card advantage point of view, this is it.

Against almost every deck of the field - except perhaps "control slaver" cause of welder and surely ichorid - this is a very efficent card.

[M.Solymossy]

I've had less success with this build in testing compared to the older versions.  It could be because there's less draw, or it could be because I'm not proficient with this build.  Either way it's no secret that DT has a tough time with solid control decks, I think this list is even more fragile in that respect.  I'd like to see if this build keeps winning as we move forward.

V/R
Masta 

I love this deck versus other "Solid control decks" because of it's draw engine.   I've played 3 builds of drain tendrils, and actually, I've only played it 3 times.  In two small tournaments and at Vintage US Champs.

UBr: 4way split a mox with 2 friends and random guy.
UB: 6-1 and lost in top8 to TK at Vintage Champs
UBg: Split a mox with a friend

I felt that the UB build I piloted was definitely the strongest, but not by much compared to the build with Green, and it also is way too yawgmoth's Will dependent.  Fastbond was an Idea I got when trying to increase the speed of the deck while losing the reliance of Yawgmoth's Willenium. 

[Masta]

I've had less success with this build in testing compared to the older versions.  It could be because there's less draw, or it could be because I'm not proficient with this build.  Either way it's no secret that DT has a tough time with solid control decks, I think this list is even more fragile in that respect.  I'd like to see if this build keeps winning as we move forward.

V/R
Masta 

I love this deck versus other "Solid control decks" because of it's draw engine.   I've played 3 builds of drain tendrils, and actually, I've only played it 3 times.  In two small tournaments and at Vintage US Champs.

UBr: 4way split a mox with 2 friends and random guy.
UB: 6-1 and lost in top8 to TK at Vintage Champs
UBg: Split a mox with a friend

I felt that the UB build I piloted was definitely the strongest, but not by much compared to the build with Green, and it also is way too yawgmoth's Will dependent.  Fastbond was an Idea I got when trying to increase the speed of the deck while losing the reliance of Yawgmoth's Willenium. 

Maybe I shouldn't have used 'Solid' since you've quoted me, instead let's say 'Heavy' Control decks.  DT has some issues with Heavy Control, period.  Drawing cards is pretty and fun, but a player with a hand full of counters doesn't really care until you play the expected Yawg Will.

I like your build, as I tend to like any variation of this deck.  However, you agree yourself that it's a bit less powerful compared to the lean UB build.  I definitely noticed it's fragility in mana consistency as well as cards that do things.  Mana denial hurts the UBG build, bad.  Also, as great and explosive as Fastbond, Regrowth, and another win condition are they inherently hurt the deck in consistency and card advantage.  Don't you agree?

I've had success with a UB build that runs Tinker/DSC, minus one Intuition.  DT's draw tends to put DSC in my hand a lot but having four ToK evens that out, and I've enjoyed Tinkering for Lotus then playing Will.  Do you really think Fastbond is that good here though?  I can see the potential explosion, but I can also see where the card is just a dead draw.

V/R
Masta