[FreeArticle] Post-6/20 Drain Tendrils: Staying Ahead of the Curve by Cody Vinci

[Webster]

Actually, that's wrong.  If you draw game 2, you will just keep playing games until someone wins 2.  Matches in Magic are not technically 3 games, but rather are a race to 2.  So, you could have a match where I win game 1, we draw the next 5, you win a game, then we draw some more, then you win another and you will win the match.  Ask a Dragon player about it sometimes: drawn games might as well not count for anything, and you keep playing games until time runs out or someone wins two.

This.  I've gone into game 5 (it might have even been 6) against Shockwave when he played Dragon before at GenCon years ago. 

Here, where I play, rounds are 50 mins.

Just like everywhere else.

You tell me how you play 6 games in 50mins, when you spend most of the time shuffling.

Shuffle and play faster. Be active in getting judges to watch your match and prevent slowplay.

Also,here where I play, when 2 DSC's get milled by a painted Grindstone, you tie the game and move onto game 3. Rounds are best out of 3, not the 1st to win 2, at least where I play, the LCV (sanctioned tournaments with nice lvl of judges).

Since you are playing in sanctioned tournaments, rule 111 of the DCI floor rules applies:

"111.   Match Structure
Three is the default number of games in a Magic match, and tournament organizers must allow three games per match.....Drawn games (games without a winner) do not count towards one of the games in a match. The match should continue until one player has won the majority of games as long as match time allows."

[Anusien]

Actually, that's wrong.  If you draw game 2, you will just keep playing games until someone wins 2.  Matches in Magic are not technically 3 games, but rather are a race to 2.  So, you could have a match where I win game 1, we draw the next 5, you win a game, then we draw some more, then you win another and you will win the match.  Ask a Dragon player about it sometimes: drawn games might as well not count for anything, and you keep playing games until time runs out or someone wins two.

This.  I've gone into game 5 (it might have even been 6) against Shockwave when he played Dragon before at GenCon years ago. 

Here, where I play, rounds are 50 mins. You tell me how you play 6 games in 50mins, when you spend most of the time shuffling.

Also,here where I play, when 2 DSC's get milled by a painted Grindstone, you tie the game and move onto game 3. Rounds are best out of 3, not the 1st to win 2, at least where I play, the LCV (sanctioned tournaments with nice lvl of judges). We had this problem couple of times already and it turned out as I've said. That's the reason why i run Gaea's over DSC #2.

This is absolutely wrong.  From the Magic floor Rules:

111.   Match Structure
Three is the default number of games in a Magic match, and tournament organizers must allow three games per match. If a tournament organizer chooses, he or she may run single-elimination final rounds as best three games out of five. This choice must be announced before the tournament begins. Match results, not individual game results, are reported to the DCI for the purpose of inclusion in worldwide ratings and rankings.

Drawn games (games without a winner) do not count towards one of the games in a match. The match should continue until one player has won the majority of games as long as match time allows.

By the way, you might be taking too much time shuffling.  Pre-game shuffling should only take 3 minutes (from the UTR):

23.   Pregame Time Limit
Before each game, competitors have three minutes to shuffle their decks and present them to their opponents for additional shuffling and/or cutting. This three-minute period includes sideboarding, if applicable, but does not include shuffling an opponent’s deck or resolving any mulligans—if the DCI Floor Rules for the game in question specifically allow mulligans. Any mulligans or shuffling of opponents’ decks must be done in a timely manner before games begin. Shuffling requirements specified in section 21 apply during these steps.

Running Blesisng forces you to waste counters on things like Tormod's Crypt (and be kold to Extirpate)?  If you do, it makes it easier for them to land Painter + Grindstone and just grind you out twice.  If you don't, well, you might just lose!

[Dante]

Stop ruining a good Drain Tendrils thread with a completely off topic posts about length of matches, shuffling, Dragon, etc. 

Dante

[RaleighNCTourneys]

Thanks, Dante.

Since some people may have had more time to test certain builds, I'll ask a question I asked before again.

What are people's thoughts on Gifts vs. Scrying? Do people think Gifts should definitely be there over Scrying? Try to think of Gifts in context of the cards in DT and not what you remember from the Gifts era when you think about if it belongs.

Has anyone been able to test the two cards?

My personal testing has confirmed my belief that both cards are very good but Scrying is the better card for my build of DT.

[DoubleDrain]

Cody --

I have tested the following list around 50 times. I am convinced that DT is the evolution of Meandeck Gifts. I cut the AK's and added more tutors, and now the deck runs a lot like a (neutered) MDGifts list. I always believed intuition was the inferior gifts ungiven, and now that gifts is a highlander card, intuition can fill the same roll as gifts: enabling a busted, usually lethal yawg's will.

Some of you may scoff at the inclusion of personal tutor, but it's one more card to throw into an intuition/gifts pile which can find tinker or will. In addition, the increase of top-deck tutors makes sensei's top much better (which has been a GREAT 1-of for me in testing).

Play the deck as you would play Gifts:

step 1) find and resolve ancestral.

step 2) find and resolve gifts/intuition.

step 3) win.



Here is the list.


3 underground sea
1 tolarian
2 strand
4 delta
4 island

1 dark rit
1 lotus petal
1 b. lotus
5 moxen
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault

4 drain
4 force
4 thirst

2 intuition
1 gifts
1 imp seal
1 personal tutor
1 merchant scroll
1 vamp
1 demonic
1 mystical

1 brainstorm
1 top
1 ponder
1 frantic search
1 ancestral
1 fact

1 tinker
1 dsc
1 tendrils
1 yawgs win
1 walk

1 chain
1 hurkyl's
1 rebuild


have not tested many SB games, but have been using yours with -1 tinker -1 dsc +2 extirpate. I am more concerned with getting the main deck correct at this time. i will test more tomorrow, and then pilot it in the type 1 event in boulder this sunday. hopefully i'll have a winning report to post


P.S. as for gifts/intuition piles they usually go as follows. If i have plenty of mana i usually get 4 tutors to find will. other times if i have a will/tutor i just get busted stuff. I love the intuition pile with lotus, rit, tolarian.

there is no standard gifts pile, but much of what Steve Menendian wrote about gifts piles for MDG applies here as well (too lazy to add links to those articles). the deck really does play out like a slightly less consistent, less broken gifts deck.

[Naurion]

What are people's thoughts on Gifts vs. Scrying? Do people think Gifts should definitely be there over Scrying? Try to think of Gifts in context of the cards in DT and not what you remember from the Gifts era when you think about if it belongs.

Has anyone been able to test the two cards?

My personal testing has confirmed my belief that both cards are very good but Scrying is the better card for my build of DT.

I won't claim that I've tested extensively, but I will state my observations. They are both great cards - no doubt worthy of inclusion - though each is better in different situations. Since DT is such a draw heavy deck, I think of games in terms of how much "gas" you have. Assuming you have similar amounts of Mana and are able to get your spell to resolve:

(1) If you have an edge on your opponent, Gifts will end the game, period. You should be able to force your opponent to give you the cards you need to win with Gifts, whereas Scrying can't guarantee that.
(2) If you have some gas in your hand, and if you are good at selecting the 4 cards, Gifts should be enough to push you over the edge, however, Scrying does the same thing. I call it about even here.
(3) If you're out of gas/topdecking or behind, then a resolved Scying far exceeds Gifts.

Based on those observations, I think Gifts gets my vote for now. I think it is better to have the punishing card in scenario 1 and sometimes in 2, as opposed to what seems to be "lose-less" in scenario 3 and sometimes 2. I will have to keep testing though, and I'm interested to hear what other people have noticed.

[M.Solymossy]

I quit on this thread. 

WHY ARE PEOPLE PUTTING IMPERIAL SEAL INTO THIS DECK?!?!?  And cutting AK makes intuition SO much worse.  The reason to play this deck is because it draws a F***ton of cards....and because of this, just win.

This THREAD is fired!

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I'm afraid I'd have to agree with Soly about the AKs. Why would you cuts ancestral 2 and 3? You lose a lot of plays doing this. I'd imagine the inclusion of more top deck toturs and les draw would cause rapid had depletion in a deck were your draw engine is your beat friend. This deck usualy wins turn5-6. Good lucky getting there.

[Ufactor]

It's not the lack of AK's that is horrifing... no one even noticed that there is no Duress.  I can't imagine the pummeling that this would take from combo.  Even with a playset of Duress, I can still see boarding 6-8 more cards.

[God_Campbell]

I had the opportunity to speak with Cody briefly on Saturday about the gifts vs scrying debate.

I was playing the 2 tendrils list replacing the Scrying for a Gifts Ungiven, which allowed me to set up some great wins as well as allow me access to a wide range of spells. I think this debate is one that might never be solved just because the cards play out very differently within the Drain Tendrils shell. I know Cody has considerably less experience in playing with Gifts which is a big factor as even after having played hundreds of games with it myself, it is still hard to sculpt the perfect 4 for any given situation. Scrying is a great card and it can allow you to refill your hand quickly if the game turns into a draw go scenario. I will try out Scrying in place of gifts in a couple Weeks and see how it plays out.

The other thing that myself and Cody did learn, was that the current iteration has a poor game vs Oath as he was knocked out last round of Swiss and I fell to the same deck in the top 8, I think it was more a combination of poor starting hands and some good play on the part of the Oath deck, but it does illustrate a weakness in the deck that might be wise to look at if you are expecting Oath decks in your upcoming tourneys.

[RaleighNCTourneys]

The biggest thing with Chalice Oath is winning game 1. Whoever can swing game 1 will win the match with a huge percentage (mostly because of CotV and also getting to Duress first, etc). Since this was my first tourney in Canada, I had no idea what to expect and put in Tinker/DSC maindeck (absolutely horrible last minute decision). The 2x Tendrils maindeck is so much better, and I have no idea why I ran Tinker maindeck.

The Oath matchup isn't as lopsided as the tourney Saturday may have made it seem like. For instance, if I would have had a fetchland in hand in game 3 of round 5 I would have probably won the match since I was only 1 mana short of winning with Hurkyl's, Lotus, Mox, Tendrils. Also, from what I saw, you could have potentially Will'd a turn earlier and put together some nice cards and at worst Time Walk (?). I think you had Vamp and Recall, but I forget.

[God_Campbell]

ya, i waited a turn to late with my Yawgmoth's and it probably did end up costing me the game, oh well. And I think I did have those though I honestly can't remember

The Oath match is a deck threat through, with duress and ctov effects it can cause a more then slight headache.

[JACO]

Having playtested against Jordi in person, and watching him play tons of other people in person, this is how Tormod's Crypt works for him against combo:
1) Play Tormod's Crypt so an opponent can't immediately win with Yawgmoth's Will, delaying many avenues and changing many standard Tutoring choices for the opposing combo player
2) Mana Drain a bomb, then use the mana on your turn to either draw a ton of cards, or just cast Gifts Ungiven
3) Win

With the fast mana and tutoring and draw power available in Jordi's version of this deck, he can really explode into wins out of nowhere after Draining an opposing spell, whether it's something like Necropotence or Thirst for Knowledge. Tormod's Crypt simply buys a couple of turns against combo, and in the interim he'll be Duressing/Mana Draining/drawing tons of cards. The strategy is really not that hard to follow if you're patient and understand the amount of mana available in the deck.

[Ufactor]

Random Question:

Where Tinker/Colossus is in the sideboard (such as Cody's deck), are there any advantages to running Psychatog as a secondary win condition, instead (e.g. can't be welded out)?  Has anybody tested Mr. Teeth in the current meta?

[TripleAgent]

I went to Blue Bell PA for the Lotus tourney Saturday, went 3-3. Used Cody's list. I was too lazy to change the board despite the unusual number of Shops/Gilded Claw around there and lost to Shop twice. I made a few errors, but nothing too off the wall. I definitely feel it's time to loosen up the board from Ichorid to address some of the other matches. Tog could also be interesting.

[Aardshark]

Hey Cody! This is in response to both your article and your message to me a couple of weeks back.  (Sorry for the lag BTW -- I've been in the process of moving to from San Francisco to Sacramento, and have been without internet @ home the last few weeks, and TMD is filtered at the new job. In fact, I'm using dial-up right now until cable gets installed next week -- I can't really describe how terrible this is.)

I'm definitely still playing around with this deck, and will probably play it this weekend at the Eudemonia double-header. 

Regarding my list, you gave me way too much credit in your message. All I did was take your original post 6/20 list and make room for dark ritual and a second tendrils by swapping out tinker-colossus -- hardly novel innovation. This was a fairly obvious switch actually, since the best players in my meta (LSV & Web) have been playing long since 6/20, and dark rit gives me a fighting chance to race.  You suggest similar reasons for this switch. 

As an aside, I'm 1-0-1 in recent tourney matches against Web playing Becker-long (close to Steve's TPS I think, minus merchant scroll maybe).  This has to be an outlier. However, I think the matchup isn't as bad as I first assumed it would be, as the deck isn't able to consistently win turn 1-2 before I get drain online.  I do believe the matchup has to be unfavorable on balance.

Re: Frantic search.  This card has always seemed lackluster to me in theory, but I must admit I haven't tested it. I think I owe it to myself to actually test it, given the sterling endorsements its received on here.  However, I think I'll try it in the merchant scroll slot, as I'm a fan of top (see below) -- scroll has been somewhat underwhelming. Its always -- ok, but after turn 1 sorcery speed is a real drag unles its turn 3-4, in which case I usually have something better to do. Turn 1 ancestral generally seems like the best target, but it often gets duressed away which is lame (especially since duress is otherwise pretty week against me). 

I really like top. Early on, it functions like an expensive ponder -- solid, but not phenomenal. It is however a reliable turn 1 play, and this deck needs that. Where top really shines for me is late game, after both me and my opponent have spent our resource and are in top deck mode, top can let me see literally dozens of cards, helping me find my missing tendrils/will etc in short order. 

Like you, I prefer Scrying over gifts. Objectively, I do think scrying is a little stronger in this deck. Gift piles don't seem that great on paper, especially post-sideboard when I often take out a topdeck tutor.  But this the real reason I play scrying is that I know my limits as a player. I didn't play gifts back in the day.  So even if gifts were the objectively superior card, I know I'm not smart enough to come up with creative outside-the-box gifts piles to win the game under time pressure.  So I play scrying, a card I know how to maximize.  It can be quite strong, and I like having the (slightly less graveyard dependent) second bomb.  In response to someone's post about early scrying, I'll sometimes cast scrying for 2-3 end of turn 1 or 2.  Its fine.  The life loss has never really been an issue for me

Re: sideboard, your list plays crypt over hurkyls, which I can see. In general, I'm constantly switching around the ichorid hate, if only to keep my opponents guessing.  I think next tourney I'm going to drop leyline altogether (or go to 1) in favor of jailer, since emerald charm is quite played here. Pithing needle is golden, but not great in multiples so I think more than 3 is redundant.

I'm surprised you agree with dropping e-truth, since it totally leaves you open to an early ETW. ETW hasn't been played much out here and I didn't expect to see it. I was wrong, however, and was very lucky to be able to race first turn etw for 6 gobs against an otherwise mana-screwed opponent in the top 8 last month.  Now that etw is seeing more play e-truth is going back in.

My big indecision has been whether to play tinker-colosus main or side.  I think it "should" be in the side.  But since it gets brought in nearly every match, I like the idea of "pre-sideboarding" it into the main deck.  This frees up two valuable sideboard slots (a particularly scarce commodity given the amount of ichorid hate you have to run). Playing only one tendrils hasn't been an issue.  The main drawbacks of this plan are
(1) drawing DSC: it almost always gets pitched to TFK eventually, but it can clog up your hand in the interim. Note that I've won plenty of games hardcasting DSC late game.
(2) Drawing tinker when you don't want to go the DSC plan can be akwkard.  The only other viable target is tinker target in the deck is Lotus. This can be good, but sometimes isn't.
(3) The maindeck opportunity cost.  This actually hasn't been that big a deal for me. I've been making room for tinker-colossus by dropping mana vault and a tendrils.  Arguably vault was replaced by dark ritual (which I added without removing mana). Obviously there's a little dissynergy in playing tinker w/o mana vault, but it hasn't been a big deal for me yet.  Also, query whether maindeck or sideboard space is at more of a premium?
So I'm torn.  I think I'm going to keep Tinker-DSC in the side for now, but I could change my mind tomorrow.

Anyhow, hopefully I'll have something interesting to say after this weekend. (At which point I'll finally have reliable internet access.)

Thanks again for the great article Cody!

[Masta]

Firstly, congratulations and thanks on being the father of this beast!  Traditionally I'm not much of a fan of Combo decks, but this deck is an absolute blast to play!  I love it!

About the Gifts vs. Scrying:

I totally feel your frustration with this.  I love Scrying.  Always have, always will.  It's an insanely powered card that's way underplayed in my opinion.  The life loss can make it easier for an opposing Tendrils player to kill you, but it's seldom an issue against anything else.  On the other hand, a resolved Gifts does usually result in moving on to the next Game.  It's also worth noting that Gifts easily pitches to Force while the Scrying makes you have that Black source, possibly increasing your mana vulnerability.

It seems that the amazing draw power of this deck typically has us come in contact with one or more of the ideal Gifts pile cards being Tutor, Tutor, Tutor, and Lotus before we see a Gifts.  If we were talking about another build that runs more tutors and/or Recoup this would be a totally different argument.  Gifts and Recoup go together like Peanut Butter and Jelly, but with this build there really aren't that many options available that exploit Gifts to its full potential.  The truth is that an overwhelming majority of the time you play Gifts with this build, you're always going to have trouble on that 3rd and/or 4th card.  Not to mention that when you rip out your first automatic two or three cards, your opponent knows to surely let you keep that last 'meh' card that you spent some time thinking about.  On the off chance that I see a Gifts before any of that, the problem is that I'm usually not in a hurry to play it unless I'm desperate.  I'm more inclined to sit back and play Control until I'm forced to make a move.  It's also really tough to discuss Gifts piles without giving the scenario, but when my ideal targets are gone I tend to lean towards Tolarian, Ancestral, Force (opponents hate giving you Force), Walk, and FoF. 

What are people's thoughts on Gifts vs. Scrying? Do people think Gifts should definitely be there over Scrying? Try to think of Gifts in context of the cards in DT and not what you remember from the Gifts era when you think about if it belongs.

Has anyone been able to test the two cards?

My personal testing has confirmed my belief that both cards are very good but Scrying is the better card for my build of DT.

I won't claim that I've tested extensively, but I will state my observations. They are both great cards - no doubt worthy of inclusion - though each is better in different situations. Since DT is such a draw heavy deck, I think of games in terms of how much "gas" you have. Assuming you have similar amounts of Mana and are able to get your spell to resolve:

(1) If you have an edge on your opponent, Gifts will end the game, period. You should be able to force your opponent to give you the cards you need to win with Gifts, whereas Scrying can't guarantee that.
(2) If you have some gas in your hand, and if you are good at selecting the 4 cards, Gifts should be enough to push you over the edge, however, Scrying does the same thing. I call it about even here.
(3) If you're out of gas/topdecking or behind, then a resolved Scying far exceeds Gifts.

Based on those observations, I think Gifts gets my vote for now. I think it is better to have the punishing card in scenario 1 and sometimes in 2, as opposed to what seems to be "lose-less" in scenario 3 and sometimes 2. I will have to keep testing though, and I'm interested to hear what other people have noticed.

 

(1) If you have an edge  - You're already winning!  Keep winning and play Control.  This deck doesn't try to combo out early!
     EDGE - SCRYING
(2) If you have the means, and you're a Gifts pro - Why not?
     EDGE - GIFTS
(3) If you're in topdeck mode - Scrying is fantastic here, /discussion!
     EDGE - SCRYING

The final problem I have with Gifts is that it only gets you +1CA.  Granted you've greatly improved your hand quality and put some bombs in the GY for future recursion, but before Will resolves you're only up one card.  The only time a Scrying leaves me with that same +1CA is if (1) I was in a desperate situation and that's all the mana I had or (2) I had three life.  It's so easy to Scrye for 3, 4, and even 5 cards with this deck that's it doesn't make sense not to include it!

I think it would be beneficial to continue playing with Gifts, and record all of your piles including what the opponent gave you.  Maybe give a number rating with the record as well.  Something like: 2 - Demonic, Ancestral, Lotus, Tolarian / Lotus, Tolarian
     (1) Crappy Gifts that really didn't tickle your fancy
     (2) Satisfactory Gifts that left you in a happy, winning state
     (3) Awesome Gifts shortly followed by a 'GG'
Once you get 20 or so piles, report it back here.  It'll then be easier for everyone to see if you're really getting your money's worth out of the card.  Until then...

My Vote for your build: Skeletal Scrying

V/R
Masta

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@Masta

I've found that if your both in top deck mode you can use gifts to retrieve two bombs guaranteed. Opposed to the potential dead draws of scrying. obviously this depends on a lot of things, but Gifts can definitely be amazing in top deck mode.

[Ufactor]

I find this Scrying vs. Gifts thing hilarious, because I run neither in my deck : D

[Masta]

@ hundred year

You're right, Gifts can be amazing in that situation.  I just prefer Scrying here because it's always good, whereas there's a small possibility that a top decked Gifts could be crap.  Keep in mind that Gifts does progressively worse as the game goes on with this build.  A Scrying for 3+ usually won't ever lead to a dead draw with this deck.  Odds are you'll hit at least one Drain, Force, AK, or Thirst.  I'm happy with that and a couple other cards when you're in top deck mode. 

They're both great of course, but I'd prefer Scrying in that scenario.

@ Ufactor

Why not?  They're both fantastic cards that mesh really well with the deck?

[RaleighNCTourneys]

I have a question for some people with experience with DT regarding boarding.

1) Are there any matchups that you don't board in Tinker/DSC? (if so, which/why?)

2) Are there any matchups you leave in 2x Tendrils and board in Tinker/DSC? (if so, which/why?)

Personally, I don't ever find my self wanting 2x Tendrils post-board or 2x Tendrils + Tinker/DSC in any matchups. If people think that something else may be correct against certain decks, I'd like to hear some other thoughts. Random side note: I often find myself boarding in Jailer against Aggro decks that it can really do something good against like Goblins (to stop Lackey) or Fish-type decks that run Ninja.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@ masta
the problem is that you can not guarantee that scrying is always good, at any time you could always draw x lands, or something equally bad depending on game state. Gifts gives you a greater degree of control over the outcome, and scrying does not. Most of the time scrying will end up ok for you, but some times it simply will not. Even if you have 1 bomb and no tutors in your deck gifts can always retrieve something like :Drain, fow, tfk, artifact/draw spell ext. Which seems pretty good in top deck mode.

Scrying is definitely a good card, and I don't fault you for running it. I tend to classify it as another "probability tutor" as cody mentioned earlier, and the problem with that is "probability", opposed to the absolution of gifts. What it comes down to is that I'm a pretty unlucky guy so I prefer the control.

[Aardshark]

I have a question for some people with experience with DT regarding boarding.

1) Are there any matchups that you don't board in Tinker/DSC? (if so, which/why?)

2) Are there any matchups you leave in 2x Tendrils and board in Tinker/DSC? (if so, which/why?)

Personally, I don't ever find my self wanting 2x Tendrils post-board or 2x Tendrils + Tinker/DSC in any matchups. If people think that something else may be correct against certain decks, I'd like to hear some other thoughts. Random side note: I often find myself boarding in Jailer against Aggro decks that it can really do something good against like Goblins (to stop Lackey) or Fish-type decks that run Ninja.

Re Question 1: VS. long I usually leave out tinker colossus, instead boarding -1 rebuild, -1 Hurkyls Recall, -1 tendrils, -1 mystical/vamp (depending on my mood), -4 duress effect.  I just think colossus is pretty terrible against them, and I'm not afraid of going down to one win condition.  Note that while I lose some explosiveness with the loss of artifact bounce, I'm still pretty fast with dark ritual etc.  I've never had a hard time finding tendrils ftw -- I suppose this strategy could get me into trouble if they brought in leyline (esp. with duress), but they never do.  I guess if I knew my opponent was going to bring in leyline I might try to find room for tinker+dsc. 

The only other match for which I don't always bring in tinker/dsc is dredge.  I still haven't settled on a solid dredge plan.  If I'm playing t-crypt I usually do want tinker, in which case I also try to find room for DSC, but right now I'm not, and tinker -->needle seems weak. So I rely on tendrils x 2, and plan to completely control the game such that I can win through leyline and/or chalice.

Re Question 2: The only time I ever brought in DSC w/ 2 tendrils was against a deck playing that gravestorm rfg card, and I wanted an extra win condition (hilariously, I was super pressed for time sideboarding and accidentally took out tinker, there's a very slim chance this cost me the win).

[TripleAgent]

hvndr3d y34r h3x: It's not that black and white, but my conclusion is:

UB w/o Recoup - Scrying
UBr w Recoup - Gifts

I prefer the UB build, and Scrying is great way less than it's bad IMHO. Without Will in hand or instant tutor for EOT Will, Gifts is mediocre to bad too often. This deck would rather draw, and then there are the Leylines and Crypts making WIll and Gifts way worse. Even if you Scrying for 5, draw 1 TFK and 4 lands, you have a lot of junk you can't draw next turn, and two cards to pitch to TFK, which just got a lot better due to you getting 4 lands off the top of the deck. Usually, it's better than that, as artifact mana equals easy storm and more explosive Tendrils. Without Recoup, I feel it's just watering down your "probability" unless you have access to Will.

Cody: I am considering leaving in 2 TOA vs. any deck that runs Bargain or Necro, I think the card advantage DT has wins if you can lock their draws after resolving either. I think this could be a particularly strong play vs. Necro, since they commit X life EOT and you can force them to blow their load to draw any more cards or cripple them to buy time to win through their hate.

[Ufactor]

Cody: I am considering leaving in 2 TOA vs. any deck that runs Bargain or Necro, I think the card advantage DT has wins if you can lock their draws after resolving either. I think this could be a particularly strong play vs. Necro, since they commit X life EOT and you can force them to blow their load to draw any more cards or cripple them to buy time to win through their hate.

This actually correct!  When they pass the turn after resolving Necro or you get a read that they're going to try to cast Bargain, Tendrils (even without lethal storm) is HUGE.

[Masta]

hvndr3d y34r h3x: It's not that black and white, but my conclusion is:

UB w/o Recoup - Scrying
UBr w Recoup - Gifts

I prefer the UB build, and Scrying is great way less than it's bad IMHO. Without Will in hand or instant tutor for EOT Will, Gifts is mediocre to bad too often. This deck would rather draw, and then there are the Leylines and Crypts making WIll and Gifts way worse. Even if you Scrying for 5, draw 1 TFK and 4 lands, you have a lot of junk you can't draw next turn, and two cards to pitch to TFK, which just got a lot better due to you getting 4 lands off the top of the deck. Usually, it's better than that, as artifact mana equals easy storm and more explosive Tendrils. Without Recoup, I feel it's just watering down your "probability" unless you have access to Will.
e them to blow their load to draw any more cards or cripple them to buy time to win through their hate.

Well put TripleAgent, that's exactly the point I was trying to make.  I should have been better with my word choice and used something like 'almost always' instead of 'always'.  Excuse my poor penmanship!  When you're in top deck mode and you rip a Scrying, odds are it's getting cast for at least 4-5+.  I can't recall ever getting burned with a draw full of mana sources.  It's possible, sure.  It's just that it's more likely I'll have more bad Gifts piles than I will bad Scrying draws.

I can't really comment on boarding with this deck because I'm terrible at it.  As far as not bringing in DSC, I do this against Oath and other TPS and it seems to work out pretty well. 

V/R
Masta

[Ufactor]

Well put TripleAgent, that's exactly the point I was trying to make.  I should have been better with my word choice and used something like 'almost always' instead of 'always'.  Excuse my poor penmanship!  When you're in top deck mode and you rip a Scrying, odds are it's getting cast for at least 4-5+.  I can't recall ever getting burned with a draw full of mana sources.  It's possible, sure.  It's just that it's more likely I'll have more bad Gifts piles than I will bad Scrying draws.

I can't really comment on boarding with this deck because I'm terrible at it.  As far as not bringing in DSC, I do this against Oath and other TPS and it seems to work out pretty well. 

V/R
Masta

Someone please explain to me why playing Gifts/Scrying from the topdeck is such an issue.  Drain Tendrils has more drawing and permission (Duress vary between main deck and sideboard) then EVERY other deck in the format.  You should be ahead on cards all day.  If not, you're doing it wrong.

Scrying is definitely a good card, and I don't fault you for running it. I tend to classify it as another "probability tutor" as cody mentioned earlier, and the problem with that is "probability", opposed to the absolution of gifts. What it comes down to is that I'm a pretty unlucky guy so I prefer the control.

This.  Actual tutors are clutch. There are many places where I'll draw a bunch of cards and get four lands, an off color mox, and no gas, when all I really needed was Tinker or Will.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@ masta

for the record I am not playing recoup. Masta, you seem to no tbe understanding what I'm saying. My point is not that scrying isn't good more than its bad so its better. I definitely agree that your cards from scrying most of the time will be good. My point is if Scrying is good about 93% of the time, you can find a pile good for gifts 99% () because you know exactly what your getting, obviously 99 is a bigger number than 93. You Need to think of gifts less as a will card and more of a two-four card tutor

Also, top decking is not such a huge issue with this deck in regards to gifts vs scrying, I just felt a need to comment that your points about scrying being better in top decking mode isn't true a lot of the time.

@Ufactor,
I definitely agree with what your saying. the ability to control the cards your getting opposed drawing x is superior, and gifts, the 2-4 card tutor is superior because of it.

Also, top decking is not such a huge issue with this deck in regards to gifts vs scrying, I just felt a need to comment that the points about scrying being better in top decking mode isn't true a lot of the time, and explain why (getting what your want is better).

[RaleighNCTourneys]

I don't know where you're getting your statistics from, but I don't believe that at all. If Gifts has to find draw spells some of the time and the end result of Gifts is just casting draw spells, how is it good 99% of the time and Scrying 93% of the time? I know these percantages aren't meant to be exact but rather illustrative, but my point is that if you EVER have to use Gifts to get draw spells, it can't possibly be 99% to 93% because the end result is going to be the same exact thing Scrying would have done: draw cards. If Scrying doesn't hit anything with its draws, Gifts for draw and then drawing isn't going to be any better (probability-wise). I've tested the shit out of Gifts and there are a ton of situations where you must get draw simply b/c there is nothing better to get. In these situation, Scrying is pretty much always better. In situations where Gifts would have won the game on the spot and you have Scyring, a resolved Scrying in its place wins the game with such an overwhelming percantage that I don't care that I didn't have Gifts. The reason Gifts loses to Scrying for me is because of situations where Gifts sets you back a turn because you have to find draw instead of just cast it with Scrying.

Also, you fail to mention an important scenario: You need to win next turn.

If you have the choice of Gifts in hand and Scrying in hand, there are often situations where you cannot find a Gifts pile that will win you the game next turn. In these cases, you need to get draw spells in order to put the win together next turn. If you had Scrying instead, you could have cast a huge draw spell at end of turn and then untapped and had a much better chance of winning. With Gifts in these situations, you tutor for draw and then untap and what have you accomplished? You've effectively set youself back a turn and this can be huge when you have pressure to win.

[meadbert]

If it is late enough where you have a decent shot of winning just off your draw then Gifts basically always get you the win.

The first option is to get 3xTutors + Recall/Lotus.

If you already burned a Tutor on something other than Yawg then you can get something like 2xTutor, Rebuild, Tendrils or if you run Tinker/DSC in the main you can get 2xTutor + Tinker + Walk.

This is not Meandeck Gifts so Gifts cannot be used to force through a turn 3 win the way could with Meandeck Gifts, but if it is turn 4 or later then Gifts should just about always win you the game on the spot.

The primary case where I would rather have Scrying is if Yawg was Duressed or countered earlier.  In this case, Scryings draw back of making your graveyard smaller is irrelevant and I would rather be drawing a lot of cards than going after two good ones with Gifts.