Fresh Fish: Fish Variants

[Soon-Man]

There is already a thread for UW Fish, so if this belongs in there then I'm sorry for the spam and I guess you can just take it down.

I have been playing fish for a while now and I am yet to find a build that I think is right. I have experimented with UW and UWb. I have seen UWg, UWbg, UWr and a versions that run Bazaar of Baghdad. All the green is pretty much just for Goyf. The red had Welder, Red Elemental Blast and randomness. The Version with Bazaar ran Squee and Life from the Loam. I have lists for UW and UWb, plus a UWg Bazaar I made that I thought was interesting enough to share(never tested, just want thoughts). If you have lists for the other Variants put them up so we can have all the lists in one place so its easy.

UW: This deck is actually more of a Standstill deck. You Play down a 2 power 1 drop, get Standstill down, wisely counter and let your weenies beat.
Lands//
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Plains
1 Island

Creatures//
4 Meddling Mage
4 Savannah Lions
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Icatian Javelineers
2 Jotun Grunt

Enchantments//
4 Standstill

Spells//
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Echoing Truth
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stifle
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timewalk

Artifacts//
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Saphire
1 Black Lotus

Side Board//
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 True Believer
1 Swords to Plowshares

UWb: This is more aggressive. You try to rip away your opponents hands while throwing down your beaters.
Lands//
4 Scrubland
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Plains

Creatures//
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Savannah Lions
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 Jotun Grunt

Spells//
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stifle
2 Echoing Truth
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Artifacts//
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Saphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus

Side Board//
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Duress
1 Stifle
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Echoing Truth

UWg: This deck is untested. You get a guy or two in play, drop bazzar to get get Squee and Life from the Loam going, counter wisely and let your beaters beat.
Lands//
4Tundra
3 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Riftstone Portal
1 Plains
1 Island

Creatures//
4 Meddling Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Savannah Lions
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda

Spells//
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Life from the Loam
2 Echoing Truth
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Artifacts//
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald

Side Board//
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Seal of Primordium
2 Pithing Needle
1 Stifle
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wasteland

Here is just a couple random notes that might help. The main thing that I noticed with all the variants is Confidant. You either play him with Thoughtseize/Duress back up or you play Standstill with Force of Will/Daze back up. The one exception being the above list. I think I would like to replace daze with another counter. Daze is pretty good, I just feel like there is a better option that I personally haven't been able to think of.

[IthilanorStPete]

Why the lack of MD Null Rods?

[Soon-Man]

Just after testing with them I just felt like they were better served in the board. A lot of times they will shut down just as many of my moxes as they do of my opponents. They are really only necessary in the Slaver and Workshop matches. They are also good on the play vs combo decks, but on the draw it tends not to be as good because your opponent gets a chance to use his moxes/lotus.

[Vegeta2711]

A lot of times they will shut down just as many of my moxes as they do of my opponents.

Oh come on, that's not even reasonable most of the time. Most Fish decks run 3 artifact mana sources, 4 max. Just about every other deck runs minimum 7 and more often there's around 10 relevant artifacts that get shut down by Null Rod. And besides that, why would you even bother with the Wasteland/Strip land base if you aren't giving them support from Null Rod or some other form of LD? Not running Null Rod maindeck can be done, but there needs to be slightly more comprehensive logic given, especially for the builds presented.

[Soon-Man]

They way that these decks are set up is that you throw down creatures and then being doing everything in your power to stall till they get threw. Because of this I have never had to/wanted to cast null rod in the first couple of turn, which is when you need to land it to make it relevant. Most decks really don't need their moxes after the first few turns as they start to become Welder/Tinker/taped for tanglewire. Also, in the vast majority of games I find myself needing the moxes to power out my guys, then like I said, by the time i have completed my opening game strategy, null rod doesn't do much besides stop memory jar, which normally isn't the worst thing because you will draw into at least one of your instants which are all counters and removal.

On the other hand, I completely understand how good Null Rod is and I have seen version of the deck that use if very efficiently. Bring me to the point of this thread. I have posted deck lists that I have ran in the past and had decent success with. I am hoping that other people with either suggest changes or post their own variation and discuss what makes them different and/or superior. I love fish and I want to find the best list possible. I hope this answered you sufficiently.

[Demonic Attorney]

Moved from Vintage Open to Vintage Improvement.

[Jay]

I'm currently working on UW Fish and I want to know what some of the experienced players think of trickbind.  Not a lot of people top 8 with it in fish (I think I saw 2 decks that ran it 2-of in the board) but I would think it would be very effective against pitch long, not to mention helpful against any other storm deck.  I'd want to run 2 or 3 in the board at the very least.

[SimonCopp]

Orim's Chant is a great option in place of Trickbind/Stifle.

[Harlequin]

I ran 4x Children of Korlis in the board of my U/W fish deck this past weekend.  I ended up 2nd out of about 21 or so.  In-hand answers to storm are often not the way to go.  Stifles are good, Trickbinds are overkill.  Use stifle to deny mana, it will rarely be relevant by the time the storm trigger is on the stack.  Children of Korlis are nice because it forces them to remove them from the board before casting tendrils.  Extract is also nice, because you can cast it immediatly.  I often take Tinker or even go straight for Dark Steel Colosus with Extract - especially if I Children on the way.  At that point (once you have those two down) you'll know what thier removal for Children is going to be.  Now you can drop Mage naming Massecre or Pyroclasm or whatever. 

The point is the earlier you cast your disruption, the better chance it has to stick.  Holding it until the last second usually doesn't work. 

For referance my list was (this is from memory, so it might not be 100% right).

4 Tundra
4 Flooded strand
4 Islands (3?)
1 Plains
3 Mishras Factory
3 Wastlands (4?)
1 Stripmine
2 Mox
1 Lotus

4 Flying Man
4 Meddling Mage
3 Ninja of Deep Hours
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Sower of Temptation

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timewalk
3 Curiosity

4 Force of Will
4 Null Rod
3 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshare
3 Daze
--BOARD-----
4 Children of Korlis
3 Serenity
3 Extract
3 Jitte
2 Tormod's Crypt

[Jay]

I'm not sure about running Orim's Chant in a deck that already has Stifle.  And I can understand running the stifle because fish leans a little heavier on blue, they pitch to force, and they can stop fetch lands, among other things.  The reason I like trickbind is because it stops pitch long from going off when they have force of will in hand, while stifle does not.  And chant wouldn't either.  The only thing I see with chant is the added effect of stopping attackers, but I see fish losing to combo more than aggro.  But I'm thinking about Children of Korlis now that you mention it.  It's definitely better against grim long because they can't take it out of your hand once it's on the board.  Anyone else have thoughts on that?

[Campee]

I played this Fish variant with great success this past weekend. I top 4'd a 25+ person tournament and won a 40+ person tournament for a Black Lotus. Here's my list:

//NAME: Meddling Who?
//Tournament: Berkeley 31.08.2008
//Player: Eric Campusano
//Ranking: 1
//Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Null Rod
//Black
4 Dark Confidant
4 Duress
//Blue
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Cursecatcher
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Stifle
1 Time Walk
//Green
//Gold and Split
//Red
2 Swords to Plowshares
//White
3 Icatian Javelineers
3 Jotun Grunt
//Lands
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Strip Mine
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
//Sideboard
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 3 Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 Umezawa's Jitte

[Jay]

I ran a UB decklist very similar to that at a meandeck open a couple months ago and it couldn't beat pitch long even with 4 stifles in the main.  They talked me into taking out the bob's, and I'm thinking UW is the way to go.  But I have to admit I'm missing the discard.  I've considered going UWB like you, but I have a hard time getting consistent mana without giving up the factories or strips.  It looks like you have 15/12/8 ways to get U/B/W mana respectively and still have 5 strips without the factories.  I would only have to up my land count by 1 (2 with mox) to get that mana base.  But do you ever find yourself hurting for W mana?

[Soon-Man]

Fetch lands save the day. 1 Tundra and 1 Underground Sea on the board should be able to cast every spell in the deck. If your talking about casting multiple spells a turn that is different. But you almost never need to do that. Pretty much every turn should be Land, Creature or Disruption, Attack, So Go.

[Rush]

This is a link to a new Fish variant called Besso's Solution.  I'm not sure if there are any other threads about it, I looked but could not find one.  Nonetheless, I have 3 things to say about the deck.  The first is that I'm glad the deck got 8th out of 315 players.  That is honestly amazing.  Second, I think the deck needs Aether Vial.  It has such great synergy with the controlling creatures in the deck as well as Chalice and Standstill.  Finally, does anyone know the full list with the 60th card?

[Webster]

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20009 is a link to a new Fish variant called Besso's Solution.  I'm not sure if there are any other threads about it, I looked but could not find one.  Nonetheless, I have 3 things to say about the deck.  The first is that I'm glad the deck got 8th out of 315 players.  That is honestly amazing.  Second, I think the deck needs Aether Vial.  It has such great synergy with the controlling creatures in the deck as well as Chalice and Standstill.  Finally, does anyone know the full list with the 60th card?

The link is broken. Try this one here.

The 60th card is deglamer.

For reference, UR fish is pretty poplular in Europe, especially Spain and Italy.

There are a few reasons why it got 8th; the most convincing being that David Besso is a good player.


You might want to just create a topic about UR fish as this one is a bit old and a different deck.

[Wildthing]

I used to play Mark Perez's version of UR gay red in the past. I am missing in David Besso's version some lavamancers, for me that was absolutely the best creature in the deck.

Recently I have been testing with fishy decks and I wonder what do you think about Cold-Eyed Salkie. I think is a pretty good creature for a merfolk deck and if anyone is successful combining it with unstable mutation it can net you 4 cards straight away (lord of Atlantis also gives it +1/+1)

I believe that Riptide Pilferer is also very nice...Let me know your thoughts!

[Norm4eva]

Ethersworn Canonist much?  Where's the love?

[Rush]

I used to play Mark Perez's version of UR gay red in the past. I am missing in David Besso's version some lavamancers, for me that was absolutely the best creature in the deck.

Recently I have been testing with fishy decks and I wonder what do you think about Cold-Eyed Salkie. I think is a pretty good creature for a merfolk deck and if anyone is successful combining it with unstable mutation it can net you 4 cards straight away (lord of Atlantis also gives it +1/+1)

I believe that Riptide Pilferer is also very nice...Let me know your thoughts!

I actually agree with you on the Fish.  Personally, though, I believe you should include Rootwater Thief and Earwig Squad if you're going to try actual Fish.

[mr.grim]

I'm a fish fan. For one its a talentless deck to play and it takes a lot to deal with what fish puts on the table. that's why i agree that null rod is a must . I play three main and one in the Sb. I don't use the children,tho i do think they are a great spot in the Sb. the one thing i love about my version is the cannonist .

[nineisnoone]

I'm not a fan of Standstill, so not much to say on the UW standstill deck.

UWB, I would prioritize FoW over Thoughtseize/Duress. 

I also don't like the Factories and Dogs/Cats,factories especially.  You already have 4 colorless lands.  This jumps it to 7.

For UWG check out this thread...
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36820.0

My list is...

4   Flooded Strand
4   Polluted Delta
4   Tundra   
4   Tropical Island
1   Strip Mine
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Emerald
1   Black Lotus   

4   AEther Vial
3   Skullclamp
4   Tarmogoyf   
4   Meddling Mage   
4   Voidmage Prodigy   
4   Ethersworn Canonist
4   Gilded Drake

4   Force of Will
1   Time Walk
1   Ancestral Recall
6    [Experimenting slots]

IMO, if you're not running Null Rod you be running Aether Vial.  With things like Cannonist, True Believer, Magus of the Unseen, or Gaddock Teeg in your deck, it turns into a huge threat against combo.  Additionally it makes all your creatures uncounterable against control and lets you play creatures all day against Spheres. 

I would run Chant over Stifle, unless you are running a mana denial package ala BUG with Rod, Cursecatcher, Wastelands.  Chant is better otherwise, you can play it in response to being Duressed.  You can play it on upkeep to burn Drain mana.  Plus, it's a pseudo time walk which is good for aggro.

Korlis is a good card.  Guess it depends on what you anticipate.  W/U will give you plenty of answers to combo so it's not like there is a want of options in that regard.  I would run Stifle/Chant/Cannonist/Mage over him, unless you want an Anti-Ichorid card maindeck.

I'm not sure I would run Jotun Grunt.  I've never had any success with it, and (at least for me) it's more of a headache then I care for.

Oh, and if you're white you should be playing Cannonist.  I shouldn't have to explain.

Rootwater Thief?  That's four mana for an Extract.  Five mana for 2x Extract.  For that much mana, the damage is irrelevant.  I would rather play Grimore Thief. 

I'm actually curious if Grimore Thief has been attempted.  If you pull out a 1 it's usually broken or Tendrils, so that's good in itself.  If you pull a 4x, it's probably good and something they'll want to play, so that's good too.

The card that sticks out to me on the Besso list is the Spellstutterer Sprite.  This card didn't see play when Brainstorm and Ponder were unrestricted, so I don't see why it would suddenly become better.  I would rather just play a normal counter over the Sprite.

As far as UR goes... I don't really see a reason to go Red anymore.  I just don't see the color as having a lot of maindeck worthy cards.  The best reasons to go red are Magus (who imo is difficult to build around), Tin Street Hooligan, and Wild Nactal (if you are RWG).  They have great SB answers to everything (dead/gone, REB, Pillar, Fanatic), so if you want the splash just for that I can see it.  But I don't being better than other colors really.