[Deck] TMD Vanishing Point (Post-Unrestriction)

[Lurker101]

Here's a much much better version of a deck I posted in Vintage Improvement when I was first starting here. Now I'm starting to understand the format more and I didn't want to resurrect my old topic with my horrible decklist in it. So here's Vanishing Point. Any help would be great but please don't just berate the deck, I'm looking for constructive criticism.

Vanishing Point

//Lands: 23
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
2 Windswept Heath
1 Mountain
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest

//Creatures: 5
2 Greater Gargadon
4 SSG

//Spells: 34
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Regrowth
1 Time walk
1 YawgWill
1 Timetwister
1 Fastbond
4 FoW
4 Ignorant Bliss
4 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Balance
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Personal Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Second Chance

Total Card Count:62

//Sideboard
2 Ignorant Bliss (against heavy discard/combo off faster)
4 SSG           (Speed)
2 Forbidden Orchard (Against Oath)
1 Deglamer             (against DSC)
2 Unmask               (If you SB in LotV you may want these to get dead leylines out of your hand)
2 Oxidize                (Obvious)
2 Null Rod              (Obvious)
           
This is a combo-control deck. You want to play Balance, stack Ignorant Bliss on it, and stack Hurkyl's Recall on that to kill your opponent's hand if you can. Ignorant Bliss can also help you dodge hand destruction and let you keep important cards in your hand while playing a draw 7. You also want to sacrifice as many permanents as possible to get those Gargadons out early. You can also use Exploration to sacrifice lands for cards, this is extremely useful if you have an untapped nonbasic that is getting wasted or stripped. Ghost Quarter is great because it takes out their non-basics and forces them to keep their permanent count up by replacing them with basic lands (if they have them, otherwise your land count stays even). I think the mana base is pretty obvious. ESG speeds things up and helps pay for Regrowth and Fastbond. Rite of Flame also accelerates you and can help with Ignorant Bliss + Wheel of Fortune shenanigans. The singleton Gush also helps lower your land count before going off or protect lands and play them back (Gushbond style). The rest of the card choices should be obvious.

Also, I know that the deck is over 60 cards but I feel it could be fully functional at 62. Especially with draw 7s and the 7 tutors.  It rolls over to CotV @ 2 pre-board though. Should Hurkyl's be Rebuilds?

[IceOaks]

Errr... Somehow the kill cond escapes me... If it is gonna be Greater gargadon n ESG beatdown, then I'd have to be honest and say that it's not exactly very good. Usually when u're successful at getting out ur combo pieces, you'd want to win now, not 2 turns later where the opponent has a chance to fight back.

You seem to be playing a TPS shell so why not just tweak it a little and use TPS. I know you're trying to come out with a new deck, but it's a little slow in my opinion. But then again I could be wrong... Let's see what the others say. ...

[M.Solymossy]

You're playing force of will with what, 8 cards to support it?    You might want to post some testing results, otherwise this is another deck that the higher-end players from TMD will ignore.

[LordHomerCat]

You're playing force of will with what, 8 cards to support it?    You might want to post some testing results, otherwise this is another deck that the higher-end players from TMD will ignore.

Otherwise?

Anyway, this deck is still not really polished or tested or proven, all of which are a big plus when placing it in the Open forum.  For starters, what is Excavation?  Is that supposed to be Exploration?  Why are you running 6 basic lands of varying colors other than white, and then all your dual lands are white?  If you are supposed to assemble your 'combo' of Balance + Bliss + Hurkyl's + Gargadon, why are you not running 4 copies of any of those cards (I know balance is restricted, but you have no Imperial Seal or even Personal Tutor to go get it)?  Also, what's with running a bunch of Ritual effects and draw7's, and then not running any storm cards (Empty the Warrens would seem like an easy fit with Rite of Flame).  You are running multiple green cards with NO GREEN PRODUCING LANDS, while you have 6 white producing Duals with ONE WHITE SPELL.  You also have that Gush to go with 8 separate non-island Basic/Dual lands.  That thing seems unlikely to be cast often.

Sorry to be so blunt, but you should really consider actually playing some vintage before designing decks for it.  There is nothing about this deck that suggests it is even close to competitive.  You should really spend some time playing TPS, Slaver, Dredge, and other real Vintage decks so you can get some idea about how the format operates before suggesting more decks like this.  It would really help you to make better use of your time and ours.

[TopSecret]

I haven't tested the deck, but from a strategical point of view,
isn't Ignorant Bliss a win more card?

Yes, it combos with draw sevens and acts as a counter for early Duresses,
but how consistently does that happen?

If you resolve Balance with Gargadon suspended,
shouldn't the loss of their mana be enough to let your clock beat them?
Perhaps Thoughtseize would be better in that slot to help protect the combo?

If you're set on playing Ignorant Bliss,
have you considered playing Academy Rector and Barren Glory?

I think you should shave the deck down to sixty cards
so that you have an easier time finding Balance for your combo.
Going down to sixty cards would make Rite of Flame better, too.

Manamorphose might be something to consider if there isn't a lot of Stax in your meta.
It would help with mana fixing, finding multiple Rite of Flames, and make Will stronger.

You're only playing six other blue cards to support your four Force of Wills.
Without playing more blue cards, I don't see how you can reliably cast them,
so maybe cutting one or two or dropping them altogether is the way to go.
Thoughtseize or Orim's Chant might be better in that slot.

I think you should find room for an Ancestral Recall.
If you have access to one, I think it would be very good.
Besides being a great card on it's own, it has a lot of synergy with Yawgmoth's Will and Regrowth, too.

That's all the criticism I have off the top of my head.

Here's a report I wrote from when I played Gargadon combo: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=32111.0
Your build obviously has a different focus, but it might give you some ideas.
... And yes, that deck was made before I realized that Hatching Plans and Gargadon do not combo.

Good luck with the deck!

[Demonic Attorney]

A note on testing results.  Sometimes they can be useful, but I'll suggest to Lurker101 and everyone else that they're never a requirement for a good discussion.  I say this for two reasons.  First, a good bit of discussion on TMD (though certainly not all) uses theory as its focus; testing results aren't needed for these kinds of theoretical discussions.  Second and more importantly, even where testing results are posted, they very seldom persuade anyone.  Instead, they lead people to debate the validity of the poster's testing partners/procedures rather than the idea they introduced.  So, I'd suggest that testing results are never required to have a good discussion, outside of some very narrow circumstances not relevant here.

Also, that having been said, I'm moving this thread to Vintage Improvement.

[Lurker101]

Ok, I took some of the suggestions and used them. The changes have been bolded. Thanks for the help. It's really hard for me to test as I live in the middle of nowhere and don't know any vintage (or for that matter other magic) players.  MWS is the only place I can test and who knows what the other person's playskill is and my playskills aren't much to call home about either.

[Lurker101]

I've added Personal Tutors and taken out Duress. If someone could suggest an ideal mana base it'd be very helpful.

[Lurker101]

I updated the mana base and added 4 Second Chances to give this deck more time to go off.

[Lurker101]

Now I've cut second chance for 2 more Ignorant Bliss and 2 more Hurkyl's Recall. I've also switched 4 SSG for 4 LotV in the SB. Will this work? Can someone test this and post results or is it honestly a bad deck without a chance?

[Lurker101]

I'm abandoning this deck. It's unworkable right now. I do think the Balance + Ignorant Bliss + Hurkyl's Recall stack has a place in Vintage somewhere though.

[elmarfud]

The fact that you need at least 2 cards in your hand to complete your combo is what makes this deck difficult to play. You need at least a balance and an ignorant bliss. With a recall as well, the party has begun. But the complexity and difficulty is to have all these cards in your hand at the same time. And of course you'll also need some protection like force of will, which means you'll need another blue card as well.

The fact that you need all these cards is what makes this deck fascinating but also very vulnerable. The difficulty this deck faces is that you'll spend 1 or 2 turns looking for the pieces you need for this deck to function. During these turns you can't play any disruption and that's what makes this deck very vulnerable.

The idea is of course very original and your combo is indeed strong, but I think it's too difficult to play...

greetings

Elmar fud