[Deck Discussion] Renovating Blue Bullshit

[Implacable]

Blue Bullshit is a mono-blue control deck that uses a heavy permission suite to control the game.  Most of you already know that.  What varies in the deck are the number of counter spells, the quantity of mana denial, and the card advantage engine.

First: the decision to remake the deck.  To get into that, we need to explore the metagame a bit.  As I see it now, the meta is comprised of TPS, Slaver, and Stax percolating in the upper tier (in about that order).  Then Oath, Fish, Drain Tendrils, Bomberman, and Dredge are all floating around - the format's dark horses.  Finally, in my meta, Goblins is the detritus that occasionally gunks up your sleeve.

But answering TPS should be the #1 priority of any deckbuilder.  If you can't at least split with Rituals, you should pack it in.  That's why I don't like the idea of playing Slaver right now (testing, even with Spheres AND Duress post-board, is rocky v. TPS).  Now, as I contemplated TPS, it seemed like a strong reactive disruption suite would be the best option for fighting their strategy.  Why?  For one, holding multiple castable counterspells nullifies their Duresses (they Duress, you have Drain and Leak up, they can't cast their bomb).  For two - and this is more important - proactive disruption suites fall into three categories: mana denial and hand denial.  Dealing with both the former and the latter is a fundamental capability of TPS.  Against mana denial, TPS has a bevy of basics to search for, enough lands to reliably hit two, and multiple bounce spells main to deal with Spheres and the like.  Hand denial, on the other hand, hits A bomb, not all of TPS's bombs, and because TPS is so stacked power-wise, a Duress often weakens their hand but still lets them rock out on their turn if not fortuitously backed up by counter-magic (and that's too much to expect).  Reactive disruption, on the other hand - that's countermagic - is a catch-all.

I build organically.  I have an idea about the format, and then I just think and try to build straight up, modifying later if necessary.  So when I try to build a deck with heavy reactive disruption, it can go two ways.  One: lots of control slowly becomes some control filling out a classic control-combo skeleton.  Because cards like Brainstorm, Scroll, and Gifts are all now restricted, playing control-combo right now is like being vomited on by your drunk mother.  There are crumpled scraps of decklists at my desk in this vein.  On the other hand, I occasionally work on developing weird control decks (like when I couldn't stop building and rebuilding Trinket-Top control for a month, starting differently every time but always hitting the same blue red stains).  Here, I decided to just pack as many control spells as I could possibly justify into a control deck, and then fill out that counter skeleton with Steve's Ophies for cards and a smattering of mana denial (which remains the only element in the deck with which I am not entirely satisfied and is now justified by a single Crucible).

So I arrived at this:

4 Ophidian
1 Morphling

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak
4 Rune Snag
3 Echoing Truth
2 Misdirection
2 Null Rod
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk

9 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal

Board:
4 Annul
4 Sower of Temptation
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Energy Flux


First: 2 Truths were originally Back to Basics'.  Then I realized how bad those were.  They were awful.  Again, they were matriarchal retching-bad.  But the deck was still to be tested v. all those other decks, and it remained to be seen if it could beat TPS in the first place.  Below's an analysis of matchups - preliminary, after only a week of testing, and in some cases with less than ten matches against a given deck.

TPS: Yes, it beats TPS.  Thank Christ.  I mean, the whole deck is designed to do it.  18 Counterspells, with 12 of them hard AND usable from turn one onwards, are very hard to break through.  Post I add 2 Crypts to make it more lethal, removing the Crucible and an ET, but the basic strategy is just to counter every non-Ritual spell they play.  Unlike when playing with other control decks, it's almost always right to let Rituals resolve, because you have so many counters that you can deal with their threats anyways (the exception is obviously Desire).  This matchup is slightly favorable to favorable.

Slaver: Thirsts are the key here.  If Slaver doesn't get Thirsts online, it can't win.  I don't care about Plannings or Impulses or Tops or whatever they happen to have: their deck can't compete without card advantage.  However, because your CA engine is so slow, they are much stronger than you in the first few turns: a resolved Welder is always trouble, and will need to be Truthed quickly.  Counterspells should not be used on Impulses or Plannings; they should be saved for Thirsts, Welders, and bombs like Fact or Will, in that order.  Oh, hey: we have Null Rod.  I hear that's good.  Post-board, two Needles are added at the expense of an ET and a Mystical to help deal with Joblins.  This matchup is even to slightly favorable.

Stax: Well, having only basics is obviously very good.  I've noticed more Metalworker-variants and mono-Red than 5C recently, so I've focused on those.  First, the number of Spheres is important.  This deck likes playing against threats that let it get up its two mana on Turn 1.  If they lead with Wire, Stack, or Crucible, the matchup goes more smoothly than if they lead with Sphere or Thorn.  On the other hand, my games against Stax often times feel like the biggest uphill battles I've ever played in all of Magic.  Matches go long, with convoluted plans to bounce and counter Welders or Stacks, and the games are real slogs.  Post, I get the phenomenal Annul, which goes a long way towards winning, and a solitary Energy Flux, which I have yet to see in all my test-games.  I also board in 2 Needles as a catch-all for Welders, Wastes, Bazaars, Barbarian Rings, and Zuran Orb.  This matchup is even to slightly favorable.

The Second Tier: Oath is a decent matchup.  Wastelands are good, countermagic is great, and the Misdirections are happy-time-making.  This is a slightly favorable to favorable matchup.  Drain Tendrils is awkward.  They occasionally get draws where they simply draw their AKs, which actually makes it very hard to win; even their resolving of a 2-for-1 makes it hard to win.  Resolved Thirsts are also trouble.  This matchup is slightly unfavorable to even.  Bomberman is all about the Thirsts and Trinket Mages, neither of which can be allowed to resolve.  That's obviously difficult.  This matchup is even.  Dredge has not been tested hardly at all.  Obviously, Crypts and Needles are added post.  I think the matchup is unfavorable to slightly unfavorable, and am considering either adding two more hate cards post or just saying "Fuck it." 

Wait.  This sounds too good.  You can't say: I edge most of the format and split with the rest, losing to Ichorid.

Well, I sort of do.  There're a few problems.  First the deck's a wee bit tough to play.  If you play a Null Rod or an Ophidian (some of the deck's only sorcery-speed spells) at the wrong time, you lose.  You may not lose immediately, but if they take some sort of tempo advantage from your tapping down a bit, you will often lose slowly and excruciatingly, unable to regain the tempo.  Second, the deck doesn't really reward playskill with much more than surviving.  It takes an absurd amount of time to actually win the game.  Most games are won with a Phid or two, beating down for God knows how long after filling out the hand.  That gives the opponent time, which is usually useless against a stocked counter-wall, but which can be bad.

And finally: aggro decks.  God.  I state firmly that there's nothing better for my deck right now than Sower of Temptation.  I love the card.  It should be tested.  But it's clear that, regardless of what creature-hate that I choose right now, there will be creature-heavy starts that can just overwhelm me.  In fact, a turn 1 Isamaru followed by a Meddling Mage is often too fast of a clock to deal with pre-board.  Of course, their chance of resolving both of those is low, but it just gets ugly quick.  And Goblins makes me ill when they land a Lackey (if they don't, they often pack it in).  So aggro is that random stalker, out there to slaughter you.  Get past Round 2 and you'll be fine, but that Stompy/Fish/Goblins/White Weenie/Shop Aggro player will sometimes be there to ruin your day.

And that's about all that I have to say about that.  Thanks for reading.  Try it out.

[JACO]

The strengths of the old BBS style decks were their solid mana bases, their ability to abuse Back to Basics to help control nearly every match, the lack of super early threats opponents played that allowed BBS' twenty counterspells to be relevant, and the sheer overwhelming card advantage of 4 Fact or Fictions. The game was also slower, and allowed for Ophidian to be relevant at one point in time. Ophidian sucks now.

The strengths of this don't really correlate to exploiting the current metagame, and you don't have 4 Fact or Fictions, so I'm not sure why you would want to 'renovate' this deck to begin with.

[Smmenen]

But imagine if they unrestricted Fact!   

That deck would crush TPS!

[Hi-Val]

Things like Ophidian make me think of Skeletal Scrying as a replacement for it.

[zeus-online]

Having actually played BBS recently i can say that i'm not sure if this will work with ophidian as a draw-engine. You really need instant card-draw...and you really do need to have more superman's...that helps against aggro and aggron-control.

I'm not sure why you are going mono-blue at all, you're not running back to basics, so whats the point?

If you are struggling against workshops, back to basics would be an answer....it doesn't destroy them, but it dosn't take much from resolving back to basics to them simply folding.

Me and a couple of friends has been playing old vintage with BBS and shops really didn't have much of a chance against back to basics + flux and a little bounce. Sometimes it takes a little time for them to be completely locked - That happens when they have welders or metalworkers, but just getting rid of either one for a single turn was often enough for their entire board to be locked down forever.

I think Hi-Val has a good point by advocating skeletal scrying, although it's not really on par with fact it gives you instant speed card draw, which is really what the deck needs.

As much as i love ophidian, i must say that i'm not sure if this is the time for him to shine again. (But please make him work, i have 4 dci phid's that are just waiting  )

/Zeus

Edit: Have you tried chalice of the void? Just throwing it out at 1 or zero might be really good. Although it isn't nearly as good now that brainstorm and ponder are restricted.

[bluemage55]

As zeus-online mentinoed, without Back to Basics, you have no incentive sticking to Mono U.  In which case, adding black would probably serve you well.

You would be able to add DT/VT/Yawg, which are all very valuable broken cards.  In doing so you also makes Gifts a possible spell for you. 

You also gain access to Duress/Thoughtseize, which would serve much better than the Rune Snags and Mana Leaks.

Tinker -> Platz would probably make a better win condition than Morphling (and protects you against aggro), and the Tinker also comes in for Gifts piles and Tinker->Blotus for Will.

If you choose to sticking to the slow draws, Bobs are probably better than Ophidians, as they will draw regardless of blockers, can beat harder, and costs less.  However, I would agree with the consensus that instant draw is what you need.  To that end, I'd recommend TfK and more artifacts, or perhaps the Arcane Denial plan meadbert's thread has suggested.

You should probably ditch the mana denial plan if you're not running with Back to Basics, as you don't put enough pressure to capitalize on mana denial anyway.

A summary of my recommendations are:

+4 Thirst for Knowledge
+4 Thoughtseize
+1 Demonic Tutor
+1 Vampiric Tutor
+1 Tinker
+1 Gifts Ungiven
+3 Platinum Angel
+1 Tolarian Academy

-4 Ophidian
-1 Morphling
-4 Rune Snag
-2 Null Rod
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-4 Wasteland

Plus: assorted mana base changes to account for black and to add more artifact mana.

[donpuzo]

Hi,

im playing a similar but with a few variations. My mana denial options are a little bit harder. I prefer to play a little bit slower, waiting for a drain to put an ophyd (generally). Also, i use Stiffle. Y prefer Meloku instead of Morphling, because my versions has serious problems vs. fish and aggro (and i have no turn 1 counters except spell snare and fow).

The odds is that i have one more null rod. In my meta Null Rod is a Beast, and this is why i play 1 mox and 3 rods (really I play 1 mox only for economy (: ).

Back to basics is too a question for me. I think that B2B is not as good as in the past, and i prefer to play only against stax and mana ichorid, and maybe against decks with not too much basic lands. But for example, against TPS i think that its not as efficient as the wasteland, because if you stand against the "hard turn" in which TPS tries to storm you, its not very problematic if the enemy has tapped or untapped lands because probably you will win in all cases, and probably you prefer to have all your mana untapped for the "war". Obviously it's n ot always this way, but generally i prefer not to waste 3 manas on a B2B and destroy directly a land with a wasteland. I think that a good player knows how to play around back to basics, and in my meta, with a lot of Slaver, and a lot of red and REB and pyros, is not very viable.

I prefer not to use fetchlands; I think that is good to have lot of lands in the late game.



This is the deck that I play:

4 mana drain
4 fow
2 misdirection
2 spell snare
4 stiflle               18

1 ancestral
1 fact or fiction
4 ophidian            6

2 meloku               2

2 echoing truth            2

3 null rod               3

1 time walk            1

4 impulse               4

1 merchant scroll         1

1 strip mine
4 wasteland
1 ancient tomb
14 island
1 library of alex.
1 sol ring
1 mox zaphire
1 lotus               24         

_____________

3 powder keg
2 energy flux
3 thormod's
2 pithing needle
2 back to basics
3 chalice void

[DireLemming]

Wouldn't Augury Adept be better than Ophidian?

[zeus-online]

Let's examine the deck a bit.

Here's the basic plan

Land, mox holding a 1U counterspell hopefully with a pitch counter as back up.
Land holding a UU counterspell again hopefully with a pitch counter as back up.
Land, now the deck should be capable of having a UU and a 1U counterspell up.

The whole gameplan centers around being able to counter from turn 1 and then every turn afterwards.
The deck is basicly Counters, mana, draw.
The deck does not care for big bombs, it merely wants to counter until the opponent is helpless to stop the win condition.
For that reason tutors and bombs like will isn't really optimal for the deck. The deck wants to, as smemmen once descriped it, to be a wave of uniformity...Not bombs and tricks.

Splashing black would be for a greater draw-engine in the form of skeletal scrying, not for duress effects, will and tutors.
Ophidian is great once it gets going, but it's a bit hard to fit it in, when you consider that the deck wants to be able to counter at all time, meaning that instant card-drawing is a necessity to success.
Answers to resolved threats is unfortunetly a necessity, so a few must be fitted in.
The win condition should be able to counter-act aggro and aggro-control strategies...Morphling does this, but so does platinum angel or triskelavus, which would enable tinker. Playing with platz means that the deck instead can change gears into resolving and protecting platz until it has killed off the opponent.

It's important to deny the opponent mana at some point in the game or they might be able to overwhelm the counterwall...this can be accomplished by back to basics or crucible/waste....But more importantly it's important to somehow destroy artifact mana...Which could be done by using null rod as suggested by Implacable...But it could also be accomplished by gorilla shaman or chalice of the void.

So what about the meta-game?
Ichorid dodges just about everything the deck does, so either it needs to be heavily sideboarded against or ignored.
Slaver doesn't have the disruption that BBS has, so denying their bombs shouldn't be all that hard, but they have welder, a turn 1 welder might just end the game, since some turns later they will be able to hardcast some bomb, and then weld it in...Or they will just wait to naturally get to 8 cards and discard the bomb and then weld it in...Hardcasting can be prevented by mana-denial, but just waiting till they get 8 cards can't really be stopped in any other way then stopping the welder or killing them before this becomes an issue.
About workshops...from my testing with old BBS sphere's can largely be ignored unless they manage to resolve multiple. Welder and metalworker are both problems for the deck, metalworkers accelerate beyond the counterability of the deck and thus they are a huge threat that needs to be dealt with. Welders allow the deck to play around hate cards and accelerate the deck.
Storm decks should generally fold to the amount of countermagic present, and especially due to the amount that can be cast (1-2 turn 1, 1-2 turn 2 and 1-3 turn 3)
However, the deck needs to be able to refill it's disruption or the storm deck will eventually resolve some nasty threat which ends the game.

How to solve all that?
Well workshops can be dealt with by any number of hate cards, but there's probably no need to overkill them, a few sideboarded slots should really be enough to give the deck a decent chance post-SB, and before SB the strategy of simply countering all the major threats should be fine.
The same applies to control slaver, except that an answer to welder would probably be welcome, this could be engineered explosives, chalice, pithing needle or powder keg.
Ichorid is probably a lost cause game1, unless BBS somehow manages to sneak a platinum angel into play - Assuming that the deck plays with Platz.
Storm combo should be a good enough match-up as to not require any SB slots, or else the deck is probably not viable.
Then there's aggro, splashing a colour or two would give the deck better answers to aggro and aggro-control, otherwise there's threads, sowers, old man or just having a win-condition that thrumps their deck (Like superman used to do)

An important thing to remember is that the deck really dosn't want to do anything...just sit back and counter, and then play something out after a drain, or when the opponent is helpless.

In a sence this a lock-deck, stopping the opponent until the opponent is helpless and can never hope to resolve anything, or is hopelessly behind on mana development.

Just keep in mind that adding powerfull cards that does not fit into the strategy might harm the deck more then help it.

/Zeus

Edit: Old BBS would sometimes force through Morphling or Back to basics, since they where huge bombs back in the day, unfortunetly we don't have access to anything that has that huge an effect on the game today - Atleast not for this type of deck.

[bluemage55]

The deck does not care for big bombs, it merely wants to counter until the opponent is helpless to stop the win condition.
For that reason tutors and bombs like will isn't really optimal for the deck. The deck wants to, as smemmen once descriped it, to be a wave of uniformity...Not bombs and tricks.

While it's true that big bombs aren't the center of the deck, they nevertheless work quite well when you have so many counters.  If you have the edge on counters, why not attempt to resolve Ancestral, Tinker, or Fact?  While uniformity was one of BBS's strengths, part of that uniform plan included resolving one of the 4x Fact.  Though this is no longer possible, Tinker, Gifts Ungiven, or Yawgmoth's Will are still just as effective at using the counter wall to gain a large advantage.

Splashing black would be for a greater draw-engine in the form of skeletal scrying, not for duress effects, will and tutors.

Thoughtseize can functionally serve as counters.  Peeking at the opponent's hand is also excellent as it allows you to plan how you will play out your counters.

Edit: Old BBS would sometimes force through Morphling or Back to basics, since they where huge bombs back in the day, unfortunetly we don't have access to anything that has that huge an effect on the game today - Atleast not for this type of deck.

Fact or Fiction is still around.

Tinker can do the job.  Forcing through Platz and/or DSC is bomby enough.

As I've suggested, Gifts Ungiven (alongside Yawg and the black tutors) can be bombs as well.

And the good old Ancestral is still a functional bomb, and having more tutors (whether MS, DT, and/or Vamp) to fetch it will functionally make more bombs available.

[i-never-smile]

I suggest Jace Beleren as the replacement for Ophidian's slot.  You draw immediately upon its resolution, it can play around enemy creatures (by not using combat to dig for cards and by growing itself out of reach of smaller enemy creatures' attacks), and it's the same converted mana cost.  It's everything a blue mage could possibly want for their Bullshit Permission deck.  Hey, it's not like you're dealing actual damage with Ophidian anyways, right?

Also, why do people hate Back to Basics right now?  It shuts off Bazaar, duals, manlands, Workshops, and Rainbow lands.  How many decks out there are going to run more than one or two basics to be fetched early?  Even if your opponent uses his fetch to find a Tropic and casts a Tarmogoyf, you can just counter it and that Tropic is now essentially useless.  If I was to play this deck right now, I would throw in Back to Basics and probably Null Rod to shut my opponent's mana off.  Then I'm sitting around with 2-3 counterspells in hand and the mana to use them, and my oppnonent is trying to dig his way out of the prison.

VS Ichorid I recommend Propaganda and Echoing Truth, though boarding 1 Trinisphere against them is also very strong because they'll spend a year getting to 3 mana and then you just counter their bounce spell.

[Nehptis]

As was stated on the SCG forums.  "Tezz is the new Morphling."  So any BBS or Keeper style decks should be working him into their lists.

[Grand Inquisitor]

proactive disruption suites fall into three categories: mana denial and hand denial

Arthur: One!... Two!... FIVE!
Galahad: Three, sir.

In lieu of Tezz's printing, the pattern of combo control to outperform control in this format, and the rise of Painter and Ichorid (at least in my metagame), should this consider being turned more towards the suggested Ub shells with a combo finish, or iwould that just be an entirely different deck?

Also, how has the testing gone against Painter?

[wette]

I love Mono U since I started playing magic, so I've been doing some brainstorming around the deck proposed by Implacable and Following what Zeus said (consistency over "brookness"), and trying to solve the ichorid and aggro matchups.

This is the first build:

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak
4 Rune Snag
3 Echoing Truth
3 Null Rod
3 Skeletal Scrying
2 Platinum Angel
2 Misdirection
1 Tinker
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk

 Mana 26
6 Island
3 underground sea
4 Wasteland
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus

SideBoard:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Yixlid Jailer
3 Energy Flux
2 Massacre


I would really love to make room for CoW but i really think we need 3 rods as I think that in the control matchs you can only lose if they have enough mana to crazy over our counters (ideas to fit CoW are welcome). The more they have to wait dropping lands the closer we are to win the match.


Lets explain the main difference with implacable list, Splashing black:

1- I really think we need a instant draw engine. At list in our League, phids are to many times looking to opponent blockers/attackers than drawing cards and this is a problem (specially if this is our lonely draw engine). Skeletal also solves the matter of getting tapped to play phid (this usually becomes the turn were your opponent crushes you...).

The plan is that during the first 2-3 turns you'll be countering opponent spells (2-3 cards in graveryard, maybe some fetch) so then you can draw 3-4 cards EOT on turn 3-4.


2- Black adds the possibility of playing yixlid on side. It's quite superior to pithing and tormod's, and it's gonna get a hard time removing it from the game for our opponent (16 counters are waiting for you) if he cannot play therapies.

3- Massacre is really welcome to take care of fish, and jailers can come in in this match to chumblock ninja's or mages and gain some turns....

4- Platinum over morphling or Tezzeret:

Great against aggro (so it covers the morphling point against this pairing), tinkerable (quite random cause you cannot tutor for itnker but sometimes shit happens) so it can cost U2 and not UU3.

Platinum also adds the possibility to win just protecting him in the control match if they have gonne crazy the first turns and makes even harder for the combo player to win. And has a plus: you can still draw cards form skeletal even if your are low on lives...

Tezzeret is discarted cause it can be great in our good pairings (control, combo....) but does nothing against ichorid and aggro (if you expect to pass and tezzeret having 5 counters your next turn explain me how...)


 Why no tutors if i'm splashing black?

What are you gonna tutor for? the only remarkable spell I'd tutor is tinker in the aggro match to get an Angel if their beaters are destroying you...

Even against control or combo is much better having rod than Angel so... lets buy some turns with truth's and wait for the angel.

Thoughts?

[islanderboi10]

Have you guys thought of looking at Platinum Control?
The deck is mono-U, and it is a control deck.

It could be a start...
Just my 2  cents.

[Xyre]

A card BBS I feel could really profit from would be Mystic Remora. Yes, it's best in matchups where you're already doing well like combo, and it's useless against Ichorid, but it makes counterwars inherently unprofitable for your opponent, because not only are you potentially drawing more counterspells, but you don't lose any card advantage whenever he counters your spell.

[bluemage55]

Have you guys thought of looking at Platinum Control?
The deck is mono-U, and it is a control deck.

The recommendations in my first post above integrates significant elements of Platz control.

[zeus-online]

What he said.

I think you're pretty much on track, i'd suggest adding a few impulses...And maybe cutting a null rod.
Brainstorm really isn't good in this kind of deck, so i'd suggest cutting it, the problem is that the deck is pretty much just mana and counterspells, so brainstorm won't really help you much...You don't need to shuffle anything away.

You also have the option of adding chalices which could fill in for null rods, Playing it with 1 counter could be powerfull aswell.
Chalice on zero also prevents welding since they won't have artifacts to weld out.

2 Sea's might be better, since that allows you to play an additional island, you're generally not looking to draw cards in the first couple of turns anyway.

Against slaver the main concern is probably welder, so SB'ing a few pithing needles could help.
(You should be able to outcounter them when it comes to bombs)

Needles are also decent against ichorid.

/Zeus

[Ged]

Brainstorm really isn't good in this kind of deck, so i'd suggest cutting it, the problem is that the deck is pretty much just mana and counterspells, so brainstorm won't really help you much...You don't need to shuffle anything away.

Except sometimes you have extra lands (or no lands) in hand or need to dig for something. I'd say that Brainstorm is quite ok in this deck.

[zeus-online]

Have you ever played mono blue in vintage? I have, and i'd say that even with a shuffle effect, brainstorm is barely mediocre....You don't really mind having additional lands in your hand, since most turns will simply be "Draw, land, go". If you want to dig for lands, impulse is superior. If you need counterspells impulse digs 1 card deeper and thus increases the chance of seing one (although it costs  more). The chance of having an opener with no counterspells is rather slim. And your chance of topdecking one is better then 25% so rarely do you need to brainstorm for one.

/Zeus

[bluemage55]

What are you gonna tutor for?

Ancestral.  FoW.  Echoing Truth.  Tinker.  Time Walk.  Fact or Fiction.  Black Lotus.  The list goes on.

If you're going to play black, Demonic Tutor is an auto-include.  Vampiric should be strongly considered unless you're short on card drawing and don't have a lot of free slots, or anticipate a lot of control mirrors.  Merchant Scroll should also be in there.  It was the card most deserving of restriction in the June wave for a reason.

There's simply too much utility to be had by being able to fetch the right card at the right time, especially in Vintage, where you have a large number of powerful restricted bombs.

[wette]

What are you gonna tutor for?

Ancestral.  FoW.  Echoing Truth.  Tinker.  Time Walk.  Fact or Fiction.  Black Lotus.  The list goes on.

If you're going to play black, Demonic Tutor is an auto-include.  Vampiric should be strongly considered unless you're short on card drawing and don't have a lot of free slots, or anticipate a lot of control mirrors.  Merchant Scroll should also be in there.  It was the card most deserving of restriction in the June wave for a reason.

There's simply too much utility to be had by being able to fetch the right card at the right time, especially in Vintage, where you have a large number of powerful restricted bombs.

I think I would only tutor for anything in case of emergency (empty the warrens first turn... so I need a truth (but we allready play 3 copies))... In our game plan, playing so much 4offs and 3 offs a drawer is better, cause we can draw into mana and counters/utility. You would generally win if the match goes as yo planned: develop mana, counter relevant spells, maybe some draw, play a finisher, keep countering. After playing mono U for years I've learned that is quite difficult to win matches if they arenot going as you planned (with the exception of platinum being into play), so I want all the deck to follow this purpose...

What he said.

I think you're pretty much on track, I'd suggest adding a few impulses...And maybe cutting a null rod.
Brainstorm really isn't good in this kind of deck, so I'd suggest cutting it, the problem is that the deck is pretty much just mana and counterspells, so brainstorm won't really help you much...You don't need to shuffle anything away.

You also have the option of adding chalices which could fill in for null rods, Playing it with 1 counter could be powerfull as well.
Chalice on zero also prevents welding since they won't have artifacts to weld out.

2 Sea's might be better, since that allows you to play an additional island, you're generally not looking to draw cards in the first couple of turns anyway.

Against slaver the main concern is probably welder, so SB'ing a few pithing needles could help.
(You should be able to outcounter them when it comes to bombs)

Needles are also decent against ichorid.

/Zeus

1- Adding impulses is something I though about, the brainstorm slot should become impulse, but i cannot see any other cards to take out to make room, I also think that the 4th copy of skeletal may ft well there..

2- Rods and chalices: I've played Mono U with chalice for the last 3 or 4 years in different moments. Chalice was the best card of the deck (it denied mana @0, and shutted down 10-15 opponent cards (just shutting down brainstorm was great)). With brainstorm out of the game, and playing 6 counters more than I used to, I think rod is better at denying mana (sometimes they go first and play there moxes so chalice is useless, and sometimes you just don't draw it in your initial hand) and I think you need 3 copies, as I said the only possibility you opponent have is to play multiple "bombs" the same turn so... if they have no mana, there's no party for them. The other point on playing rod is that it needs 3 slots while.. if I play chalice i really want to play 4.

3- I thought of playing 3 seas for the fish match, but as I'll provably just need to put one into play and play massacre (don't care if they waste it afterwards) maybe 2 is enough.
.
4- Slaver: my lit actually includes 4 pithings, I also think that the only thing to worry about is welder


  I love the idea of this being playable...

           Wette

[bluemage55]

I think I would only tutor for anything in case of emergency (empty the warrens first turn... so I need a truth (but we allready play 3 copies))... In our game plan, playing so much 4offs and 3 offs a drawer is better, cause we can draw into mana and counters/utility. You would generally win if the match goes as yo planned: develop mana, counter relevant spells, maybe some draw, play a finisher, keep countering. After playing mono U for years I've learned that is quite difficult to win matches if they arenot going as you planned (with the exception of platinum being into play), so I want all the deck to follow this purpose...

It is much more efficient to run fewer removal slots and more tutors.

Additionally, you have not addressed the fact that there are still powerful restricted bombs that you would want to tutor for.

[korangar]

BBS is a Deck I love, and I've been trying to create a Control deck full of counters (12 or more).
Wette's idea is great, but I don't think so many counters are necesary  (18 are bit too much). You can cut some of them to make room to both black tutors. Even I've been trying the old and well known Leak and the new Rune Snag, none of them gives me the confidence I want (even I haven't tryed them in conjuction with 'The Rod').
So I thougth... what do I need to relaibly play and protect my Angel ?
First, an easy way to find the Tinker, wichs comes with the inclusion of the 2 black tutors. Second, a way to easyly protect the Angel once in play. This came in form of one of the newest counters, Pact of Negation.
I haven't still tested Wette's version, but I preffer a more reliable counter (in my humble opinion) Negate, so I cut the Leaks, the Rune Snags, add 3 PoN and both black tutors. I changed the single Brainstorm for a more effective draw spell (given the redundancy of having multiple Rods in play or a Rod with a bunch of moxen) so I put in a Thirst. And finaly, changed an Echong truth for a Rushing River or Capsize, a way to remove a Chalice for 2.

What about this?

3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
6 Island
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Negate
3 Pact of Negation
2 Misdirection
2 Echoing Truth
1 Capsize / Rushing River
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Tinker
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Skeletal Scrying
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

3 Null Rod
2 Platinum Angel

SideBoard:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Yixlid Jailer
3 Energy Flux
2 Massacre

My 2 cents

[wette]

It is much more efficient to run fewer removal slots and more tutors.

Additionally, you have not addressed the fact that there are still powerful restricted bombs that you would want to tutor for.

YOu're right, playing 2 bouncers and the tutor could be ok, I'm just wondering if I should add more Undergrounds, i'm just worried about black mana..

BBS is a Deck I love, and I've been trying to create a Control deck full of counters (12 or more).
Wette's idea is great, but I don't think so many counters are necesary  (18 are bit too much). You can cut some of them to make room to both black tutors. Even I've been trying the old and well known Leak and the new Rune Snag, none of them gives me the confidence I want (even I haven't tryed them in conjuction with 'The Rod').
So I thougth... what do I need to relaibly play and protect my Angel ?
First, an easy way to find the Tinker, wichs comes with the inclusion of the 2 black tutors. Second, a way to easyly protect the Angel once in play. This came in form of one of the newest counters, Pact of Negation.
I haven't still tested Wette's version, but I preffer a more reliable counter (in my humble opinion) Negate, so I cut the Leaks, the Rune Snags, add 3 PoN and both black tutors. I changed the single Brainstorm for a more effective draw spell (given the redundancy of having multiple Rods in play or a Rod with a bunch of moxen) so I put in a Thirst. And finaly, changed an Echong truth for a Rushing River or Capsize, a way to remove a Chalice for 2.

@Korangar: we are suppossed to be countering everything during first turns, and our worse enemies are aggro and welders... thi smakes me think that you should not be playing negate (can't counter creatures) or pact (can't use it if there's no angel into play or during the first 3-4 turns).

Rune and leak did well for me when playing chalice+b2b as mana denial, I think that rod+wasteland can do this job even better.

brainstorm: I think i will play the 4th skeletal in this slot.

bouncers: I though about chalice@2 i think river is the way to go.

[bluemage55]

YOu're right, playing 2 bouncers and the tutor could be ok, I'm just wondering if I should add more Undergrounds, i'm just worried about black mana..

I would recommend dropping two basic islands for another fetch land and an USea.

[zeus-online]

YOu're right, playing 2 bouncers and the tutor could be ok, I'm just wondering if I should add more Undergrounds, i'm just worried about black mana..

I would recommend dropping two basic islands for another fetch land and an USea.

I'd almost rather do the opposite, having alot of basic islands is pretty important for the workshop match-up.

You just need black mana for turn 3-5 or something like that, when your hand is depleted.
Or turn 1-2 against ichorid to drop jailers or extirpates.

/Zeus

[wette]

YOu're right, playing 2 bouncers and the tutor could be ok, I'm just wondering if I should add more Undergrounds, i'm just worried about black mana..

I would recommend dropping two basic islands for another fetch land and an USea.

I'd almost rather do the opposite, having alot of basic islands is pretty important for the workshop match-up.

You just need black mana for turn 3-5 or something like that, when your hand is depleted.
Or turn 1-2 against ichorid to drop jailers or extirpates.

/Zeus

I agree with Zeus, normally I'm not gonna want to show my Und Seas with the exception of the ichorid match. The only way to solve it (at least the only comes to my mind) is adding more fetch, so I can allways choose. I think we really need the 26 mana producers (playing rods, and knowing that wasteland is not really that usefull as a mana source in our deck), what about this? I'm not really sure about tolarian, what would you add? ring? another island?

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
6 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

[zeus-online]

I'm not sure about the academy, but i think it's one of those things that needs to be tested. I like sol ring in this kind of deck...Since all you really want to do is get more mana....It does get shut down by null rod though, so i could see its exclusion.

2 Sea's are probably fine, since you shouldn't care all that much if it gets wasted after you've drawn 4+ cards with it.
I don't like the idea of basic swamps by the way, since they don't tap for  , which is way more important then being wasteable.

Have you considered maindeck needles? just a few, mostly to take care of welders. Also saves a few SB slots against the ichorid match-up.

/Zeus

[wette]

Have you considered maindeck needles? just a few, mostly to take care of welders. Also saves a few SB slots against the ichorid match-up.

/Zeus

Needle looks like a great inclusion but... what would you take out? Needles would be competing with null rod and bounce slots, null rod is great against slaver and better than needle in omst match ups, and if I'm including demonic tutor i wont play with less than 2 bounce spells... For reference, my list would look osmething like this:

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
6 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak
4 rune snag
2 Misdirection
2 Echoing Truth/1 E truth + 1 Rushing river
1 Tinker
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Skeletal Scrying
1 Demonic Tutor


3 Null Rod
2 Platinum Angel

SideBoard:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Yixlid Jailer
3 Energy Flux
2 Massacre

A question about sideboard. I don't like tormod's crypt against ichorid because is crushed by all disruption cards in their sideboard (pithings, grudges and chains on vapor) + their maindeck chalice @0. Since i wont side in tormod's against any other pairing (does not shine against combo when playing null rod) i've been thinking of doing this changes:



-3 tormod's crypt + 1 yixlid + 2 offalsnaut/ planar void thoughts?