Shaking up Vintage - the metagame at Eric Becker's house

[ErkBek]

I hardly ever get to tournaments these days. Today I was planning on making one of the rare type 1 tournaments in the South, but a Tropical Storm over North Carolina made travel impossible. I’ve lost a little motivation, but I still get around to playing quite a bit. From this isolation, a unique metagame has developed.

I’d like to present what I think are Vintage’s best decks (in no particular order).

BUG Fish. This deck is amazing. Without a doubt it’s the top dogg in Charleston. BUG Fish is consistent and extremely frustrating to play against. You can read more about this deck here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36497.msg507454#new

UR Landstill. Shockwave’s favorite deck got even better with the restriction of all best blue draw, the return to full artifact mana, and the recent printing of Vendilion Clique. Vendilion Clique is amazing in Landstill. He’s a 3 power clock that drops EOT and his “Thoughtseize effect” is better in this format than any other. Here’s my list (based on Shockwave’s):

Mana 25
5 Strips
4 Factory
1 Lotus
1 Ruby
1 Sapphire
4 Volcanic
1 Steam Vents
3 Island
5 Fetches

Draw 6
4 Standstill
1 Ancestral
1 Walk

Control 27
4 FoW
4 Drain
3 REB
4 Fire/Ice
3 Chain of Vapor / Echoing Truth
4 Null Rod
4 Stifle
1 Crucible

The Tech 2
2 Vendilion Clique


Intuition Tendrils. I personally think this deck is much better than TPS. Funny thing is, neither IT or TPS have tested all that great, but IT definitely has a big edge.

Land 13
2 Bloodstaind Mire
4 polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea

Accel 16
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Rituals
2 Cabal Ritual

Protection 12
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Drain (uncertain on these)
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild

Kill 1
1 Tendrils of Agony

Business 20
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Grim Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Time Twister
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
2 Deep Analysis
3 Intuition
1 Yawgmoth's Willennium

Grim Long. Maybe it’s the lack of TPS, but Long is always player around here. I’ve also developed a new manabase to incorporate sideboard splashes and maintain much of the advantages of the fetchland manabase:

EDIT: The new manabase gives much resiliency vs. Tinker-Titan (which is how Drain decks beat GWS Long 50% of the time)

Land 12
4 City of Brass
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Swamp

Accel 16
5 Moxen
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 banana Vault
1 banana Crypt
1 LED
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual

Protection 8
4 Duress
1 Pact of Negation
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild

Cards 24
2 Street Wraith
2 Tendrils
3 Grim Tutor
2 Night's Whisper
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 A. Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mind's Desire
1 Necropotence
1 Bargain
1 Will
1 Timetwiser
1 Wheel
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar

Board:
4 Chant
1 Scrubland
3 Extirpate
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Island
1 DSC

Deep Analysis Drain Tendrils. I’m fairly certain that Deep Analysis is better than AK’s in Drain Tendrils for most matches. Intuition AK is only good when you’ve got a second AK in hand or draw into it. Intuition DA always draws you up to 6 cards and lets you entomb your Tendrils/Lotus/Academy/Chain. DA has great synergy with TFK too.

In dropping the AK’s some additional space is freed up for more Duress effects.

Recoup has been tested and cut for Tinker-Titan. Titan makes the deck less Will dependant and gives the deck more quick, easy wins.

Mana 25
4 Underground Sea
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Tolarian Academy
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault

Control 14
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild
4 Duress
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

Engine 18
4 Thirst For Knowledge
2 Deep Analysis
2 Intuition
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Kill 3
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Tinker
1 Titan

Finally, we’ve got Demar’s list for Strategic Slaver. Strategic Slaver is leaps and bounds above previous Slaver builds, but you’ll never see me playing it in a tournament.

Dredge is very good, though it’s not in the gauntlet. I just don’t see the point in having this deck built.

Hope this thread inspires some of you to try decks outside of Slaver and TPS.

Discuss!

[Masta]

I've always been a huge fan of UR Landstill, it's actually my first Type 1 deck so I naturally gravitate towards it as well as other fishy-tempo like decks.  I've also noticed that it has possibly been overlooked and is definitely a very resilient and viable Type 1 option in these crazy times.  Stifle is very, very, very powerful right now.  Storm combo is equally prevalent and robust, Slaver and Painter are everywhere, and mana denial is great, all things that Stifle can handle.  I'm going to test your list as I've never used Vendilion Clique in there even though it makes perfect sense. 

I am confused by the three main REBs.  That's 5% of your deck that is dependent on either your opponent playing Blue or your opponent playing Painter's Servant and choosing Blue.  It's strong sure, but you're making Game 1 very difficult against some Storm builds, Dark Confidant/Tarmogoyf Fish, and Mud/Stax.  I'd have something more like Merchant Scroll, Cunning Wish, Misdirection, and/or some other draw like FoF, Deep Anal, or Gifts in there.

Nice post.

V/R
Masta

[Smmenen]

Eric, if you were going to a tournament tomorrow:

1) What you would play?

2) If you had to play combo, which of the combo lists would you play (I'm assuming its either IT or Grim Long)?

3) What is it you don't like about TPS?

[ErkBek]

1) What you would play?

BUG Fish. No question. That deck is awesome.

That's what I was going to play at my tournament this weekend. I tested IT, Long, Slaver, and Drain Tendrils extensively.

2) If you had to play combo, which of the combo lists would you play (I'm assuming its either IT or Grim Long)?

Grim Long. No FoW's definitely sucks for combo mirrors, but generally combo mirrors suck either way. My Long list packs 4 Orim's Chants on the board to swing the matchup around a little bit post board. Combo mirrors are something I never look forward to even when I'm better prepared than the opponent.

The 4 Orim's Chants are very useful vs. Dredge as well. They're basically extra Time Walks effective on turns 2, 3, and sometimes as late as turn 4. Most of the time you're not going to be able to pay the kicker, but they're mostly to protect your hand from getting raped. My Long list is much better suited to play against Dredge than TPS.

3) What is it you don't like about TPS?

In theory, TPS should have the best matches across the board. You're Duresses and FoW's go 1 for 1 with all of the counters in a Drain deck and accelerate your bombs before they can recover with their draw spells. You'll win combo mirrors cause you've got FoW's and they don't. You've got the super stable manabase + FoW's and bounce to protect vs. shops. Sounds like The Perfect Storm.

However, my experience things play very differently for me. When the window is open, I often don't have the cards to pull the trigger. Whenever I keep the explosive single threat hand, my opponent has the FoW or Duress for it and just can't topdeck my way out. I get hands with FoW's and no blue cards. etc.

Everything that I want TPS to be, IT is. IT still has the broken plays of Ritual decks, but it has the insanely flexible Intuition.

-Intuition makes Yawg Wills lethal now.
-Draw you a ton of cards with DA
-Grab FoW's in combo mirrors
-Enables EOT threat (without investment of other cards). Untap even bigger threat.

I'm surprised that the archetype hasn't really been explored by TPS players. Not sure if it's better than TPS, but maybe there's still some room for innovation in the archetype.

Thanks for the questions.

[misslehead3]

I have looked through both these threads on the top decks and bug fish and what do you suggest a potential sb would be

EDIT: sry just noticing ththe bug fish thread says dont ask for a sb so then what would you play in tyhe boaRd going into a completely unknown meta

[Dante]

I played Drain Tendrils at the ICBM tourney today and while it did well for me, AK was junk all day, so I'd agree something different like DA is better.  I played with Green and Regrowth was money all day long.

[Smmenen]

Thanks for the questions.

Thanks for your answers!

I strongly believe in TPS at the moment (although I'm psyched for Tez at the end of the month), and being a fellow combo player, i've been wondering what you've been thinking...

[Shock Wave]

Vendilion Clique is amazing in Landstill. He’s a 3 power clock that drops EOT and his “Thoughtseize effect” is better in this format than any other.

I actually think Clique is really poor in Landstill. The deck does not need a clock, and the effect that the Clique provides is pretty underwhelming. In the grand scheme of things, you're investing 3 mana to have an opponent exchange one card in their hand for a random card. Can you give me an idea of what matchups this effect improves and how? I could be wrong, but I see some very unfavourable opportunity costs with running this card over other standard options.

[ErkBek]

The deck does not need a clock, and the effect that the Clique provides is pretty underwhelming.......I could be wrong, but I see some very unfavourable opportunity costs with running this card over other standard options.

The deck might not need much of a clock, but it does need a win condition. Can we agree that the deck needs a kill condition outside of Mishra's Factory?

Landstill's biggest weakness is the lack of a clock. Vendilion not only provides a fast clock that's not mana intensive, but it's ability is highly relevant.

Clique replaced Faerie Conclaves because they are slow and mana intensive. Yes, Conclaves can help start your mana on turn 1, but in the late game they can drain it.

In the grand scheme of things, you're investing 3 mana to have an opponent exchange one card in their hand for a random card.

You're not really investing 3 mana in Clique, because you're playing it only when you've got the mana available and you weren't going to be doing anything with it. Typically, Clique is cast EOT to pull their "out" and instantly start applying pressure (or at the end of the opponent's first main phase if they have Drain mana). It's also great to cast in response to an opponent's spell to take down their counter backup.

The Thoughtseize effect prevents the opponent from creating a hand to break your soft locks (sometimes they'll have +10 turns to sculpt one). It's not unheard of for someone come back and win a game they've been losing. The combination of Thoughtseize + a hasted 3/1 puts pressure on the opponent to hurry up and win right after they've just lost their best card in their hand.

Can you give me an idea of what matchups this effect improves and how?

Vendilion is awesome in the combo matchup, specifically vs. TPS and IT. Vendilion he's also very good Drain Tendrils and Slaver. I haven't tested the shop matchup, but I guess he trades with Juggernaut which seems good.

Instead of giving the opponent all day to make a comeback, Vendilion foils their plan better than any other card in the game. He takes the opponent's best card and applies pressure immediately.

[hauntedechos]

I am a little surprised that neither Slaver or Painter made the list.  Especially with Landstill making the cut.  I can see how Fish and Landstill make the cut (waste effects and Null Rod).  Is it your opinion that after Slaver blows its hand on a counter war, it cannot recoup faster than Combo will draw a bomb and go off?  It's an asusmption on my part, however it's the only thing that explains the lack of Painter and Slaver to me.

Quality Post ERK

Haunted.

[ErkBek]

I am a little surprised that neither Slaver or Painter made the list.  Especially with Landstill making the cut.  I can see how Fish and Landstill make the cut (waste effects and Null Rod).  Is it your opinion that after Slaver blows its hand on a counter war, it cannot recoup faster than Combo will draw a bomb and go off?  It's an asusmption on my part, however it's the only thing that explains the lack of Painter and Slaver to me.

Quality Post ERK

Haunted.

Slaver is solid. I just didn't see a point in posting Demar's list. I addressed this briefly at the end of my post.

In regards to Painter. I just haven't gotten around to building it since I didn't know there was a widely accepted list. Seeing Owen Turtenwald is continuing to smash with his list, I'll probably put that together.

[God_Campbell]

I played Drain Tendrils at the ICBM tourney today and while it did well for me, AK was junk all day, so I'd agree something different like DA is better

I also played Drain tendrils yesterday to a 1/2 split, and I found AK to be a great card, now DA is a option I would like to explore in the drain tendrils shell, but it should not totally replace the instant speed draw power of a resolved AK for 3 or 4...or even 2....

[hauntedechos]

Erk,

Thanks for clearing that up.  Certainly I wasn't looking for a list per se, just where you feel Slaver sits on the podium.  What is your stance on Slaver vs. Painter?  By that I mean, which to you favour and possibly elaborate on why.  If you have time/could be bothered, perhalps you could talk about your feelings on what the weaker deck needs to do to even things out.

thanks

Haunted.

[meadbert]

Hi Eric,
  I think I will add these lists card for card to my fall test gauntlet.  Do you have a suggested sideboard for all of them?  It does not need to be exact since I can tweak it for the meta, but I would like a starting point so I do not totally mess things up.

[ErkBek]

Hi Eric,
  I think I will add these lists card for card to my fall test gauntlet.  Do you have a suggested sideboard for all of them?  It does not need to be exact since I can tweak it for the meta, but I would like a starting point so I do not totally mess things up.

Why not just ask, "How do you board against Dredge?" /jk

I'll try and post some generic boards when I've got some free time in the next few days/weeks.

Erk,

Thanks for clearing that up.  Certainly I wasn't looking for a list per se, just where you feel Slaver sits on the podium.  What is your stance on Slaver vs. Painter?  By that I mean, which to you favour and possibly elaborate on why.  If you have time/could be bothered, perhalps you could talk about your feelings on what the weaker deck needs to do to even things out.

thanks

Haunted.

Can't really talk much about Painter since I haven't tried out Owen's list.

[Shock Wave]

The deck might not need much of a clock, but it does need a win condition.

You're right on both counts. The deck does not need much of a clock, and it does need a win condition, which it already has (Mishra's Factory, Faerie Conclave).

Can we agree that the deck needs a kill condition outside of Mishra's Factory?
Yes, Conclaves can help start your mana on turn 1, but in the late game they can drain it.

No, I disagree that Landstill requires a kill condition outside of land. One of the biggest reasons for this is that adding win conditions essentially dilutes your disruption. Landstill revolves around reactive disruption, not proactive disruption, other than Null Rod. Even Null Rod is often not played aggressively.

Landstill's biggest weakness is the lack of a clock. Vendilion not only provides a fast clock that's not mana intensive, but it's ability is highly relevant.

Landstill's slow clock is not a very relevant weakness. It doesn't want a fast clock. You're not trying to race your opponents with this deck. Once you start adding dudes to Landstill, you might as well just play UR Fish. They are very different decks with different strategies. I think you're trying to integrate both strategies into one deck, which has been tried in the past with generally poor results.

You're not really investing 3 mana in Clique, because you're playing it only when you've got the mana available and you weren't going to be doing anything with it.

You still have to pay for it. It's not free.

Typically, Clique is cast EOT to pull their "out" and instantly start applying pressure (or at the end of the opponent's first main phase if they have Drain mana). It's also great to cast in response to an opponent's spell to take down their counter backup.

Thoughtseize effect prevents the opponent from creating a hand to break your soft locks (sometimes they'll have +10 turns to sculpt one). It's not unheard of for someone come back and win a game they've been losing. The combination of Thoughtseize + a hasted 3/1 puts pressure on the opponent to hurry up and win right after they've just lost their best card in their hand.

Here's the issue. You've taken out Faerie Conclaves and added 2 Cliques, so you've lessened the number of win conditions by 1. Since you're only playing with 2 cliques, it seems fair to say that you're not planning on seeing that card until after the mid game. If that's the case, then surely you can agree that Clique is most likely to see play in a game state where the Landstill player is at an advantage or has the game locked down entirely. At that point, how is Clique better than a hard counter?

The biggest problem with Clique becomes immediately obvious once you understand Landstill's true weakness. It is not the lack of a clock. Landstill's weakness is the first 3 turns of the game. If it survives past that point, the odds of it winning are overwhelmingly in its favour. Yes, it is conceivable that Landstill may lose a long game, but adding cards to improve this favourable circumstance is not a good idea. One thing I recommend people to consider before tinkering with Landstill: Is the modification you're making going to help shore up Landstill's weakness without affecting its strength? Applying the above reasoning to the consideration Clique, we see immediately that it does not improve the early game, and marginally improves the late game, where Landstill does not require improvement.

Vendilion is awesome in the combo matchup, specifically vs. TPS and IT. Vendilion he's also very good Drain Tendrils and Slaver. I haven't tested the shop matchup, but I guess he trades with Juggernaut which seems good.

In theory, he seems almost certainly better in the shop matchup. Other than that, I can't imagine that he is better than a hard counter against control or combo, especially as a 2-of.

I think it's awesome that you're tinkering with Landstill, since I rarely hear of great players making efforts to understand this deck. I just don't think you've struck gold with this particular idea.

[ErkBek]

In theory, he seems almost certainly better in the shop matchup. Other than that, I can't imagine that he is better than a hard counter against control or combo, especially as a 2-of.

Can we agree that the deck needs a kill condition outside of Mishra's Factory?
Yes, Conclaves can help start your mana on turn 1, but in the late game they can drain it.

No, I disagree that Landstill requires a kill condition outside of land. One of the biggest reasons for this is that adding win conditions essentially dilutes your disruption. Landstill revolves around reactive disruption, not proactive disruption, other than Null Rod. Even Null Rod is often not played aggressively.

I didn't say that Landstill needs a kill condition outside of Lands. I said outside of 4x Mishra's Factory.

I'm not cutting disruption for Cliques. I'm cutting 2 worst mana producers in the deck.

Do you play Conclave because it's a kill condition or a mana producer?

Here's the issue. You've taken out Faerie Conclaves and added 2 Cliques, so you've lessened the number of win conditions by 1. Since you're only playing with 2 cliques, it seems fair to say that you're not planning on seeing that card until after the mid game. If that's the case, then surely you can agree that Clique is most likely to see play in a game state where the Landstill player is at an advantage or has the game locked down entirely. At that point, how is Clique better than a hard counter?

The biggest problem with Clique becomes immediately obvious once you understand Landstill's true weakness. It is not the lack of a clock. Landstill's weakness is the first 3 turns of the game. If it survives past that point, the odds of it winning are overwhelmingly in its favour. Yes, it is conceivable that Landstill may lose a long game, but adding cards to improve this favourable circumstance is not a good idea. One thing I recommend people to consider before tinkering with Landstill: Is the modification you're making going to help shore up Landstill's weakness without affecting its strength? Applying the above reasoning to the consideration Clique, we see immediately that it does not improve the early game, and marginally improves the late game, where Landstill does not require improvement.

No card is going to help your early game if you can't draw it.

Clique helps your early game more than Conclave does. Clique disrupts the opponent. Conclave comes into play tapped.

[Shock Wave]

I didn't say that Landstill needs a kill condition outside of Lands. I said outside of 4x Mishra's Factory.

... but is that not exactly what you're proposing with Clique? One of your supporting arguments is that it speeds up Landstill's clock. That suggests that you think Landstill requires more kill conditions. Since Clique is not a land, then intuitively, you're implying that Landstill needs a win condition that is not a land.

I'm not cutting disruption for Cliques. I'm cutting 2 worst mana producers in the deck.

I would never cut mana from this deck, under any circumstances. If you miss early land drops, you will almost certainly lose.

Do you play Conclave because it's a kill condition or a mana producer?

Both. It provides mana, even if not immediately. It has synergy with Standstill. It deals damage in the late game. Sure, Clique does a better job of dealing damage, but you can't just cut mana sources to play it. Clique never provides mana. You're really hurting your early game by doing this.

No card is going to help your early game if you can't draw it.

I'm not sure what you're implying with this statement. Can you please clarify?

Clique helps your early game more than Conclave does. Clique disrupts the opponent. Conclave comes into play tapped.

If I play Conclave on Turn 1, it produces mana on the subsequent turns. Clique is unlikely to come online until Turn 3. Until then, it is effectively a dead card. How is that better than Conclave in the early game?

It seems that you're trying to justify Clique based on your dislike for Faerie Conclave. Conclave is one of the weakest cards in the deck, if not the weakest, but it is a very necessary evil.

[ErkBek]

I would never cut mana from this deck, under any circumstances. If you miss early land drops, you will almost certainly lose.

I still have 22 Lands. Don't really miss very many.

No card is going to help your early game if you can't draw it.

I'm not sure what you're implying with this statement. Can you please clarify?

Your argument was Clique doesn't help your early game. You made the assumption that you don't draw Clique until the mid or late game.

It seems that you're trying to justify Clique based on your dislike for Faerie Conclave. Conclave is one of the weakest cards in the deck, if not the weakest, but it is a very necessary evil.

Sounds like you just don't like Clique.

I think Clique is an improvement (not saying the deck was bad without it). Maybe Clique simplifies the deck a little, but maybe that's what the deck needs to be more widely played.

[Neonico]

I also tried Vendilion clique in UR landstill shell, and EoT clique, my turn standstill is really a strong play sequence.

[Shock Wave]

I still have 22 Lands. Don't really miss very many.

It seems like you are missing the more critical ones (Faerie Conclave), especially since you feel it is important to add a creature to the deck. However, if you don't feel like you're land light, that's awesome. In my experiences, your land count is low. Another issue with your build is that your Standstill at board parity is much weaker. It's really going to be tough to mount any pressure with just 4 factories.

Your argument was Clique doesn't help your early game. You made the assumption that you don't draw Clique until the mid or late game.

That's a fair assumption. You're only running 2 cliques. How often are they going to make an impact on the early game? You just can't see a two-of with any consistency in the early game with a deck that has no tutoring power or library manipulation.

Sounds like you just don't like Clique.

You're right, I don't. I've given you a few reasons why the opportunity cost of playing it over other solutions is very high. I've also provided you the most critical reason against its inclusion: It does not address Landstill's critical weakness (the early game) and only marginally improves one of its inherent strengths (the late game)

I think Clique is an improvement (not saying the deck was bad without it). Maybe Clique simplifies the deck a little, but maybe that's what the deck needs to be more widely played.

I don't think that it is impossible to improve Landstill, I just think that given the strengths/weaknesses of the deck that Clique is a poor inclusion.

[Ufactor]

EDIT:...sorry for the mis-post.

[JACO]

Erik and Rich, why don't you guys test this list:

Mana Sources (25)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
3 Volcanic Island
1 Steam Vents
4 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand

Business (35)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection/Daze/Spell Snare/Mana Leak
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Fire/Ice
2 Echoing Truth
1 Merchant Scroll
3 Null Rod
4 Stifle
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Goblin Assault

Having played enough aggro control and resource denial decks (including Landstill), I can tell you that mana/resource denial is MUCH MUCH better when you have a decent clock. Vendilion Clique seems to help fill this void, if you up the count to 3, without clogging up your hand. Some points:
1) More Misdirection/Daze/Spell Snare/Mana Leak effects will also help you survive the first few turns, and you can just dump a bunch of REBs in your sideboard to hedge against Painter and Control Slaver decks.
2) Goblin Assault fills the void as another win condition that is actually pretty strong, especially against control versions of Stax, without the life loss of Bitterblossom. It is worth throwing another 1-2 in the sideboard.
3) I have personally always hated drawing Faerie Conclave in Landstill in my Vintage and Legacy Landstill decks, and Mutavault is basically Mishra's Factory #5 (or 6 if you want to cut the 4th Wasteland).
 

[Shock Wave]

Erik and Rich, why don't you guys test this list:

Mana Sources (25)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
3 Volcanic Island
1 Steam Vents
4 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand

Business (35)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection/Daze/Spell Snare/Mana Leak
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Fire/Ice
2 Echoing Truth
1 Merchant Scroll
3 Null Rod
4 Stifle
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Goblin Assault

Having played enough aggro control and resource denial decks (including Landstill), I can tell you that mana/resource denial is MUCH MUCH better when you have a decent clock. Vendilion Clique seems to help fill this void, if you up the count to 3, without clogging up your hand. Some points:
1) More Misdirection/Daze/Spell Snare/Mana Leak effects will also help you survive the first few turns, and you can just dump a bunch of REBs in your sideboard to hedge against Painter and Control Slaver decks.
2) Goblin Assault fills the void as another win condition that is actually pretty strong, especially against control versions of Stax, without the life loss of Bitterblossom. It is worth throwing another 1-2 in the sideboard.
3) I have personally always hated drawing Faerie Conclave in Landstill in my Vintage and Legacy Landstill decks, and Mutavault is basically Mishra's Factory #5 (or 6 if you want to cut the 4th Wasteland).
 

I'm not going to test that list for several reasons:

- I disagree that Landstill needs more or "better" win conditions. I've never wanted anything more than manlands.
- I disagree that the changes you've proposed augment the mana denial plan. You're running 3 Null Rod, which in my camp, is a serious mistake.
- I feel that your inclusions make the deck weaker in the early game, and make your Standstill at board parity an unenviable position.

However, if you do decide to play that version in an event, I'd be interested to see how you fare with it.

[wiley]

Finally, we’ve got Demar’s list for Strategic Slaver. Strategic Slaver is leaps and bounds above previous Slaver builds, but you’ll never see me playing it in a tournament.

Dredge is very good, though it’s not in the gauntlet. I just don’t see the point in having this deck built.

An interesting list for sure, and one that I mostly agree with (anything I am on the fence about I will test in the coming weeks).  These last two piqued my curiosity though.  Many people, including some of control slaver's biggest proponents have said that strategic planning itself was not the reason 'Strategic Slaver' did so well, but more the higher incorporation of mana denial elements.  In a meta where roughly half of the best decks are storm decks, why is this deck blocked from consideration?  Is it your particular play style that pushes you away from the deck?

As for dredge, obviously I am a fan of the deck and have been vocal to that point in the past.  For every deck that I would like to play I try to keep tabs on how it does in tournaments from month to month, that said dredge took top spots at decently sized tournaments last month, including winning a 90 person event in Beledona link and getting a top 8 at a 118 person event in Rimini link.  While my latest testing said that dredge might not be the best deck to play currently (based largely on matches with the winning gen con lists) it would still be a deck that one should know how to play against and have some plan for during deck design.  Are you truly of the opinion that the deck is not worth playing with/against?

[ErkBek]

In a meta where roughly half of the best decks are storm decks, why is this deck blocked from consideration?  Is it your particular play style that pushes you away from the deck?

I don't like Slaver and decks like it for this reason (from the BUG thread)

The best strategy in Vintage is not allow your opponent play all their cards and implement their strategy. There are 3 ways to do this:

1) Kill them first (combo)
2) Mana disruption so they can't cast their "better spells" (Shops, landstill, and some fish builds)
3) Counter/Duress everything they do (be a champion)

I generally don't like playing decks that don't fall into category 1 or 2.
 

Are you truly of the opinion that the deck is not worth playing with/against?

I think Dredge is a very powerful and good deck. I won't play it in a tournament b/c I don't think it'd be fun. I don't see the point in testing against it b/c I already know how the games will play out.

[OmniStrife_101]

Erik and Rich, why don't you guys test this list:

Mana Sources (25)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
3 Volcanic Island
1 Steam Vents
4 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand

Business (35)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection/Daze/Spell Snare/Mana Leak
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Fire/Ice
2 Echoing Truth
1 Merchant Scroll
3 Null Rod
4 Stifle
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Goblin Assault

Having played enough aggro control and resource denial decks (including Landstill), I can tell you that mana/resource denial is MUCH MUCH better when you have a decent clock. Vendilion Clique seems to help fill this void, if you up the count to 3, without clogging up your hand. Some points:
1) More Misdirection/Daze/Spell Snare/Mana Leak effects will also help you survive the first few turns, and you can just dump a bunch of REBs in your sideboard to hedge against Painter and Control Slaver decks.
2) Goblin Assault fills the void as another win condition that is actually pretty strong, especially against control versions of Stax, without the life loss of Bitterblossom. It is worth throwing another 1-2 in the sideboard.
3) I have personally always hated drawing Faerie Conclave in Landstill in my Vintage and Legacy Landstill decks, and Mutavault is basically Mishra's Factory #5 (or 6 if you want to cut the 4th Wasteland).
 

I'm not going to test that list for several reasons:

- I disagree that Landstill needs more or "better" win conditions. I've never wanted anything more than manlands.
- I disagree that the changes you've proposed augment the mana denial plan. You're running 3 Null Rod, which in my camp, is a serious mistake.
- I feel that your inclusions make the deck weaker in the early game, and make your Standstill at board parity an unenviable position.

However, if you do decide to play that version in an event, I'd be interested to see how you fare with it.

Based from my experience of playing Landstill (U/R) over the years, the deck did not have problems of having to think for "better" win conditions.  It is when EXTIRPATE was printed when we Landstill players here in the Philippines started to think and innovate of new tech for Landstill. 
Our meta, being over run by Aggro and Fish variants, we started to include VEDALKEN SHACKLES in our build.

We are not maindecking Null Rods, since we do not play in a artifact infested Meta, but instead we play the classic Nevinyrral's Disk configuration (ofcourse with due respect to the designers of the deck). 

[Shock Wave]

We are not maindecking Null Rods, since we do not play in a artifact infested Meta, but instead we play the classic Nevinyrral's Disk configuration (ofcourse with due respect to the designers of the deck). 

If I could push the metagame back 5 years, I would strongly consider running Disk again. However, the fact of the matter is that it is a dead draw in competitive environments. Pick a good deck and Disk is pretty much dead against it. Even against Workshop decks, where Disk shines the most, it costs way too much, too often since the advent of Thorn. If your metagame is slower and aggro based, I can understand why you would run Disk. However, I wonder why you would even choose to run Landstill in such an environment. It seems like a really poor choice.

[OmniStrife_101]

We are not maindecking Null Rods, since we do not play in a artifact infested Meta, but instead we play the classic Nevinyrral's Disk configuration (ofcourse with due respect to the designers of the deck). 

If I could push the metagame back 5 years, I would strongly consider running Disk again. However, the fact of the matter is that it is a dead draw in competitive environments. Pick a good deck and Disk is pretty much dead against it. Even against Workshop decks, where Disk shines the most, it costs way too much, too often since the advent of Thorn. If your metagame is slower and aggro based, I can understand why you would run Disk. However, I wonder why you would even choose to run Landstill in such an environment. It seems like a really poor choice.

Yup, it really is a poor choice but based from my experience it is still one of the decks that you can build upon based on the meta. 
Like in our case, instead of packing cards to stop combo and decks with power, we pack it with Lightning Bolts, Swords to Plowshares, Engineered Explosives with Academy Ruins combo on the side.  Yes, it is true that the Disk really lost its glitter because of its drawbacks but it works fine in our Meta. 

Besides, the staple cards for the deck are not that hard to find here ergo many players seem to favor using it in tournaments, it really gained popularity here in the local scene...

Getting back on track...

I agree that Landstill would need another win condition with the advent of Extirpate (bye bye factories).  I believe Vedalken Schackles does the trick, this if course is speaking in light of our meta here in the Philippines.

[meadbert]

I realize this is Thread Necromany, but it has taken me this long to fully test all of the decks that Eric posted.

First of all, I too did not have success with TPS.  Steve and Paul have continued to do well, so perhaps I just need to get better with the deck, but from my testing IT has been just better.

The worst was U/R Landstill.  Perhaps the Meadbert meta has too much dredge, but that deck never seemed to stand a chance and I did frequently miss the Faerie Conclaves.
The rise of BUG Fish has certainly hurt U/R Landstill since Goyf is so annoying for it.

Becker Drain Tendrils was solid.  I liked the Tinker plan in the main and I liked the 15th land.  Also Intuitioning for DAs was really strong.  I thought I would miss the AKs more but I did not.
Crucially, with AKs you really do not want to pitch 1 to Force, since it makes the others so much worse, but pitching a DA to Force is just fine.
One change I would have made is Titan to DSC.  I lost multiple games against Dredge because Titan was easily blocked and in a few other matchups a redundant Painter or some other small creature made the difference.

I have been testing GWS Long since Becker posted the first list a while ago.  I think the main change was adding Cities of Brass.  That was an improvement.  I still find GWS Long to be good, but not as good as these last two decks.

BUG Fish is a monster.  That surprises no one now since it has been top 8ing all over the place.

What may surprise some of you is that I have actually found IT to be perhaps the best of all of the decks listed here.  It has been crushing just about everything. 
I believe that dropping Brainstorms and adding DAs and Drains may have actually improved the deck.  I have been shocked by the number of turn 2/3 wins with Force + Duress backup that I have been getting.  Basically IT can ignore the card Oath of Druids and just race.  It can bring all of its weapons to bare in the first few turns against Drain Tendrils.  If Drain Tendrils makes desperation plays like Intuitioning for 3xForce to stay alive then you can Intuition for a draw engine and beat them.  Basically being able to run 6 rituals and 2 Drain along with the win now draw engines of Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain and the long term of draw of Deep Analysis is just really strong.

The main deck mostly struggles against dredge game 1 since it lacks some of Long's brokenness and is a bit more reliant on the yard and thus more vulnerable to Leyline, but the board that I am using (not sure where I got it from) has 9 anti Dredge cards (3xExtirpate, 3xTormod's, 3xJailer) and thus the Dredge matchup is strong post board.


So what I am seeing overall is that the top decks look something like this:
Dredge, IT, Fish, Oath, Painter.
Stax is bad against that Meta and so is Tezzeret.
The Long decks are decent, but not as good as the above 5.

IT has a favorable matchup against Oath and Fish, an almost even matchup with Dredge and then a slightly unfavorable matchup against Painter (with maindeck blasts)
This implies that IT is a good choice but it somewhat understates how good IT is in this hypothetical meta.

A crucial question is how much Painter should one play in that meta?
Painter struggles the most since it nearly auto-loses to Oath.  Oath has Gaea's Blessing so either you need to assemble the 3 cards combo including Tormod's Crypt or you need to go to the Goyf plan post board which is weak against Oath.  With Painters and Blasts you can remove Oath, but between Chalice@1, and Wastelands it can be difficult to get Volcanic, Tropical Island, REB Painter and Grindstone.  Painter also nearly autoloses to Dredge if Dredge has a token DSC in the board.  Fish is a bad matchup mostly because of the Null Rods so Painter's only good matchup is IT.  This makes Painter the poorest choice of those 5 decks.  Once folks give up on Painter in that meta you are left with:
Dredge, IT, Fish and Oath.  That is good meta for IT.

Incidently, the Nash equilibrium for the 5 decks is about as follows:

IT 36%
Dredge 23%
Oath 21%
BUG Fish 19%
Painter 1%

There are a few decent decks that I have not tested against yet.  Uba Stax has continued to do well for me through the GAT meta and in the post GAT meta.  I have not tested Uba Stax against the above meta yet.  The above meta does not look favorable for Uba Stax since IT was basically designed to beat Stax, Dredge dodges mana denial and Oath is a historicall bad matchup.  Even Goyf and Bob are solid against Uba Stax. 

I have also not tested Pitch Long or Belcher.  These decks have the speed to compete, but with 99% of the meta packing maindeck Duress/Thoughtseize/Unmask it will be tough for combo.

EDIT:  I have also not tested against Master of Etherium Shop Aggro yet, but I did test against Mono Red Shop Aggro.  IT can ignore most of what Shop Aggro wants to do.  Dredge generally beats it.  Oath generally beats it.  Painter dodges mana denial fairly well.  The only good matchup was BUG Fish.