[Type 4] Shards spoiler discussion

[Wobbles]

Other cards that seem good:
Knight-Captain of Eos 4w
Creature - Human Knight   Rare
When Knight-Captain of Eos comes into play, put two 1/1 white Soldier creature tokens into play.
1, Sacrifice a Soldier: Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn.
2/2

Good, probably better than spike weaver/guardian of cloverdell. I love guys that make tokens, and ways to sac tokens from Keldjoran Outpost or other soldier token producers.

Call of Heel   1u
Instant   Common
Return target creature to its owner's hand. Its controller draws a card.

Seems good. Really flexable, interesting and super diplomatic. Medium pick, but an interesting card.

Kederekt Leviathan

seconded

Protomatter Powder  2u
Artifact   Uncommon
4{W}, Sacrifice Protomatter Powder: Return target artifact card from your graveyard to play.

Seems cool, but probably too narrow for all but the most artifact heavy stacks. That said, returning any of the really broken artifacts seems great, especially since you can cast this early.

Broodmate Dragon 3brg
Creature - Dragon   Rare
Flying
When Broodmate Dragon comes into play, put a 4/4 red Dragon creature token with flying into play.
   #160/249   4/4

Tokens! It's just big, but Excellent none the less. I don't like firebreathers (especially those as good as hellkite overlord), but this guy gives quite a bit of umph for a big dumb beater.

Tidehollow Sculler  wb
Artifact Creature - Zombie   Uncommon
When Tidehollow Sculler comes into play, target opponent reveals his or her hand and you choose a nonland card from it. Remove that card from the game.
When Tidehollow Sculler leaves play, return the removed card to its owner's hand.
      2/2

I love mesmeric fiend but he's never made my stack. This guy is slightly bigger, so maybe?

Minion Reflector 5
Artifact   Rare
Whenever a nontoken creature comes into play under your control, you may pay 2. If you do, put a token into play that's a copy of that creature. That token has haste and "At end of turn, sacrifice this permanent."

Second best ferver for t4, right behind Anger. Great with citp guys, not so great with legends.

[VikingMetal4L]

Woo, full spoiler went up on mtgsalvation!  I'm going to disagree most of Wobbles' choices above, because in many cases, there are straight-up stronger cards out there, which are mid- to low- picks as is.  For instance, Iname as One is much better than Broodmate Dragon assuming you picked up at least one spirit (Kokusho anyone?).  Iname isn't even very strong in my stack, as creatures' life spans are remarkably short and there aren't many super-powered spirits anyway.  (Iname as Wizard would be the nuts.)  Anyway, Call of Heel is much weaker than Repulse, which is much weaker than Repeal, which is much weaker than the new Resounding Wave.  Minion Reflector seems okay with 187's and sacrifice outlets, but is probably worse than Akroma's Memorial, and I'll stop there.

So after dishing it out, I'll open myself up to criticism by posting my own list of inclusions from Shards.  It's pretty long, but there's just so much delicious stuff in here:

Resounding Silence
Resounding Wave
Resounding Thunder
Resounding Scream? (doesn't seem to do much beyond cycling until you're down to 2 players)
Bant Charm
Esper Charm
Naya Charm
Jund Charm
Brilliant Ultimatum
Cruel Ultimatum
Violent Ultimatum? (I think Paul is right, comparing this card favorably to most sorcery-speed wraths, but those tend to be weak.  You also need 3 targets here.)
Hindering Light
Punish Ignorance
Collect Specimen (or Gather Species, whatever the final name is)
Necrogenesis
Kedereckt Leviathan (too bad we didn't get more sweet 187's with unearth)
Empyrial Archangel (flying, SHROUD, 5/8, and decent ability gets the nod from me)
Sedris, the Traitor King
Vicious Shadows

I listed Vicious Shadows last because it's new and we haven't talked about it yet.  Well, it seems really strong.  Here's the text I'm working with, which I hope is the Real Deal:

Vicious Shadows 6R
Enchantment
Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from play, you may have Vicious Shadows deal damage to target player equal to the number of cards in that player's hand.

For one, this is a potential political weapon in that those who attack you are likely to be First Against the Wall When the Revolution Comes.  Or at least, they're going to be taking 4-7 per creature as soon as creatures start dropping off (which is, you know, soon).  So wraths start killing players as well as creatures.  It's totally bonkers if you're playing tokens ala Urza's Factory/Sprout Swarm, and it's an infinite combo with Pentavus.  Yeah I'm pretty stoked about this one.  I read that Meandeck plays with starting hand sizes of 5, which would make V. Shadows much weaker; my playgroup does not do this.

There are a couple of creatures I'm watching, too.  On the one hand, big dumb fatties are largely interchangeable, but I'd like to at least try to keep things optimized.  (Whatever that means.)  I may be increasing my Creature:Removal ratio soon anyway.  So the guys I am watching have all been mentioned already and are Sharuum the Hegemon, Godsire, Sphinx Sovereign, and Prince of Thralls.  Being mythically rare while less-than-mythically powerful might also affect their chances of inclusion.  Sharuum might have gotten the nod over White Bringer, except that my friend Adam successfully used it to pull off a Mindslaver semi-lock on two players the other night (with the help of a few eot Miraculous Recovery effects).  Whenever a creature makes a legendary performance like that, it stays in for the lulz if nothing else.  (See Bloodfire Colossus, with which I once killed a six-person table in about 10 minutes (without killing myself).)

Anyway, I really look forward to wrecking some faces with Alara.  It beats the pants off Eventide for sure.

Q

[Mr. Type 4]

Yeah Wobbles found the bottom of the barrel playables - but that's cool, there are a lot of weaker stacks out there that would probably really like a creature that makes 2 4/4 flyers and stuff like that. 

Here's one some people will like but I think that it's a little too weak for my taste.  Still, worth mentioning:
Kresh the Bloodbraided   
Legendary Creature - Human Warrior 
Whenever another creature is put into a graveyard from play, you may put X +1/+1 counters on Kresh the Bloodbraided, where X is that creature's power.
 
  3/3

Could get big pretty fast, tho. it's for any creature, not just your own.


I'm working on my list now, and I'll have it up in a little bit.

I read Viscious Shadows last night and I'm concerned that it might be too good, although it being an enchantment makes it a lot more fair.  Yes - we play with starting hand size of 5 (although max is 7, it's like a double mulligan) so thank goodness for small favors there.  There's no question in my mind that it's good enough, the question is if it's too good.

One thing is for sure - if you have the most cards in hand, it's your responsibility to counter this.


What about this?

Memory Erosion   
Enchantment 
Whenever an opponent plays a spell, that player puts the top two cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.

Seems pretty good when playing with a number of players and the decks are a little smaller.  might not be powerful enough for my stack, but it's pretty decent.

[Mr. Type 4]

my list, pretty conservative as usual:


good:
Sharuum the Hegemon
Sedris the traitor King
Punish Ignorance
Resounding Silence
collect specemin
kederekt leviathan
Resounding wave
resounding scream
Resounding thunder
bant charm
cruel ultimatum
esper charm
grixis charm
Prince of Thralls
Empryal Archangel
Naya charm

try these, might not be good enough:
violent ultimatum
corpse connoisseur
hindering light
necrogenesis
jundt charm

might be too good, try it anyway:
vicious shadows

[Harlequin]

With at least 5 new nearly-auto-include cycle cards, joining other Staple t4 cyclers (non-white decree, and futuresite ones).  I'm honestly considering Astral Slide for the stack, and then revisit the idea of some "almost good" cycle cards like Choking Tethers and kin.  I like slide alot (as like a legacy deck), and it could be really savage in type4 with all the CIP and LP abilites. 

[Mr. Type 4]

With at least 5 new nearly-auto-include cycle cards, joining other Staple t4 cyclers (non-white decree, and futuresite ones).  I'm honestly considering Astral Slide for the stack, and then revisit the idea of some "almost good" cycle cards like Choking Tethers and kin.  I like slide alot (as like a legacy deck), and it could be really savage in type4 with all the CIP and LP abilites. 

Istill think there's just not enough relevant cyclers to make it good, but a worthy experiment.  You'll have to let us know if it was any good.

[VikingMetal4L]

@ Mr. Type 4: Do you really prefer Grixis' Charm to Naya's?  Instant speed regrowth seems super strong--even Reclaim has been a decent card for me.  And under the current wording, Naya Charm can also serve as a semi-Cremate in a pinch!  I can see the white and red abilities also being useful once in a blue moon.

@ Harlequin: don't forget to draft Thought Reflection, amiright?  Niv-Mizzet too, if you play him.

Q

[Mr. Type 4]

that's an eroneous omission.  Naya Charm should be on the list for sure, thanks.

list edited.

[Harlequin]

Heres a list of all the cards that are type4 possabilities for Cycling.  I left out "Vanilla Cyclers" and the Gempalm dudes because they are just too situatiational.  This is 17 + the 5 Crazy Alar ones, + 1 Cycle/unearth guy that gives 24.  Can Anyone else think of others?

Choking Tethers: tap 1 dude (instant: tap 4)
Death Pulse: -1/-1 (instant: -4/-4)
Decree of Annihilation: destroys all lands (sorcery: erase the world and hands)
Decree of Pain: all creatures -2/-2 (sorcery: wrath + draw)
Decree of Savagery: +1/+1 x4 on target crature (instant: all creatures)
Decree of Silance: counterspell (enchant: 3 counterspells)
Dirge of the Dread: target creature gains fear (sorcery: all creatures)
Primal Boost: +1/+1 (instant: +4/+4)
Renewed Faith: gain 2 life (instant: gain 6 life)
Slice and dice: 1 dmg all creatures (Sorcery: 4 dmg all creatures)
Solar blast: 1 dmg (instant: bolt)
Sunfire Balm: prevent 1 (instant prevent 4)

Blast from the past - we know
Ichori Slick: -3/-3 Cycle + Madness
Marshaling Cry: +1/+1 and vigilance Cycle + Flashback (fairly poor)
Dragon Wings: Cycle, and auto-equip to give flying (fairly poor)
Undead Gladiator: Cycle and self-reanimate

[Nefarias]

You forgot about "vanilla cyclers" that have relevant enough abilities to hardcast, whose cycling is just gravy. In that list, I would include:

Akroma's Vengeance
Eternal Dragon (particularly if you have Decree of the Creator)
Starstorm

And if you really wanted to hammer home the Cycling theme, each of these are fairly weak but entirely playable:
Radiant's Judgment
Rebuild
Scion of Darkness
Unearth
Scrap
Wipe Clean
Expunge

[Wobbles]

No love for Empyrial Archangel? Seems more interesting than platinum angel or simic sky swallower, although I'm not sure how many run either of those.

Has anyone tried Undead Gladiator? It's interesting but it's never made the cut in my stack.

[VikingMetal4L]

So the deal with Undead Gladiator is that it lets you cycle through your whole deck on your upkeep.  So like, take the number of cards in your hand and replace them for any cards in your deck??  Not to mention that you can tutor for it just fine with Intuition or Gifts eot.  Are you guys misreading this card, or why in the world are we talking about Mr. Glad like he's a reasonable card for type 4?

Q

[Mr. Type 4]

my friend Brian had Undead Gladiator in his type 4 - I drafted it every time and purposely abuse it to the fullest extent.  I think it's pretty obnoxious - one person's upkeep turns into this big production where they draw their whole deck.  I refuse to play it in my stack, although some of you might like it.  It esentially lets you make your hand into whatever you want and then you just combo out. There's not much you can do to stop it, either. 

[Harlequin]

I actually misread him when I posted it.  I thought you paid the cost to put him into play... not back to your hand. 

Undead Gladiator: Cycle and self-reanimate

Yeah, self-reanimate is alot differant than self-regrowth

Yeah I could see where dumping your deck durring your upkeep would be busted.

[Mr. Type 4]

i mean, I know peoplethat play with Armistice and Treasure Trove, so Undead is no big deal for them.  In the world of reasonable things, however, i think it's a little too good in that you really can't do much about it. 

What do we think about Vicious Shadows?  I'm reallllly thinking it's just too good.  i figure a couple people are just guaranteed dead if that thing resolves.  Might be worse than Knollspine Invocation.

[A.-1.]

Wow Shards looks very exciting for Type 4. I might start drafting again.

I think we'll probably test all of the cards mentioned and then make cuts due to cards being overpowered or underwhelming.

I don't think Vicious Shadows will be overly powerful. The only cards my group had ever cut for power reasons were Mischievous Quanar and Nezumi Graverobber. Shadows might be close to that level but is more easily dealt with.

Has anyone had a good experience adding cards like ancestrial tribute, beacon of immortality, Chant of Vitu-Ghazi, or granny's payback to their stack? I'm not a fan of massive lifegain without some other benefit just for what it does to the length of the games, but I am a big fan of the swingyness of Chant of Vitu-Ghazi. Thoughts?

The only was I ever liked was Blessed Wind, and that was really only because it was an answer to infinite life combos.

Another answer to infinite life combos is infinite damage  . Instead of Blessed Wind, we've put errata on Who What When Where Why to "Target player's life total becomes 20." I'd say for the most part we've had good experience with Chant of Vitu-Ghazi, Granny's Payback, and Heroes Remembered. Although when it comes to the "swingyness" of certain cards I like Captain's Maneuver, Reflect Damage, etc.

Brilliant Ultimatum seems like an auto-include in some form or another. As was mentioned earlier making the spells acc might work. Or just allow the spells to be RFGed the rest of the game and let that player play those spells whenever they could normally. This might be a little weak but making the spells acc seems pretty powerful especially if someone you've made an alliance with splits it 5-0.

[Mr. Type 4]

Brilliant Ultimatum seems like an auto-include in some form or another. As was mentioned earlier making the spells acc might work. Or just allow the spells to be RFGed the rest of the game and let that player play those spells whenever they could normally. This might be a little weak but making the spells acc seems pretty powerful especially if someone you've made an alliance with splits it 5-0.

If you guys aren't playing the rule "if it doesn't cost mana, it doesn't count as your spell for the turn" then I strongly encourage you to do so.  It really streamlines the "acc" rule and makes it really easy to understand and apply PLUS it makes a lot of things a heck of a lot more interesting.

I dunno how excited I am about Brilliant ultimatum - I feel like it isn't going to work that well in an actual game but I guess I won't knock it until I've tried it.

I just feel like vicious shadows is going to leave people who get killed by it with a bad taste in their mouth.  I cut Greater Morphling for the same reason. 

[VikingMetal4L]

What do we think about Vicious Shadows?  I'm reallllly thinking it's just too good.  i figure a couple people are just guaranteed dead if that thing resolves.  Might be worse than Knollspine Invocation.

I really don't think it's going to be unreasonably busted.  Unlike Knollspine Invocation, there are non-split second answers once it hits the board.  I've found the weaker Pyromancy to be "fair enough" for Type 4, and I don't see Shadows being any higher a power level.  I also don't see it being any more "unfun" than Glarecaster, which just keeps catching us with our repsective pants down.  We'll see what I think of this in a few weeks.

Q

[Mr. Type 4]

knollspine > pyromancy - fact.
shadows > knollspine???? hard to say

My top 5:

1. Resounding Wave
2. Sedris the traitor King
3. collect Specimen
4. Resounding Thunder
5. Resounding Silence

Menendian sold me on Emp Archangel.  he's prob right - good defense cards are usually awesome.

My list also didnt include Prince of Thralls,which is definitly worth a try.

list updated.

[Smmenen]

My list also didnt include Prince of Thralls,which is definitly worth a try.

Which i also pointed out

[VikingMetal4L]

How does Prince of Thralls compare to Lim-Dul the Necromancer?  I have yet to be greatly impressed by Lim-Dul.

If I may continue to partake in Speculation Fest, I'll offer up my top 5 list as well.  I'm measuring "best" as in, if my pack 1 pick 1 were somehow the 19 Alara cards I listed, my first pick would be:
1. Collect Specimen.
But if that card weren't in the pack, I'd take
2. Vicious Shadows.
If neither of those were in the pack,
3. Resounding Wave
4. Naya Charm (I'm not kidding)
5. Resounding Thunder.
If we don't want to count Vicious Shadows, my "next first pick" would probably be The King Sedris.

Q

[Smmenen]

why is collect specimens so good?  It seems like a bad dominate. 

[Mr. Type 4]

why is collect specimens so good?  It seems like a bad dominate. 

are you trying to set me up here?  I have sooo much to say about this card.

gather/collect specimin is more like a bad desertion - but Desertion is retarded good.  Still, that wouldn't put it in my top 5.  However, if it works as it reads on MTG Salvation right now, then Gather Specemin will let you take control of all creatures that come into play under ANY opponent's control for this turn.  That means if someone casts Twilights Call you can steal EVERYTHING.  Twilight's is a quick example, but there's lots of things that cause creatures to come into play other than casting a creature spell, including crazy abilities like Soul Foundary or Dark Depths (!).  Dominate also doesn't let you take control of a creature's CIP abilities, and so is inferior, IMO.  Imagine someone casts Hynox - do you want Dominate or GS?

You should pick GS very highly, IMO. 

I agree that Naya Charm is really good, probably top 10 or close.

How does Prince of Thralls compare to Lim-Dul the Necromancer?  I have yet to be greatly impressed by Lim-Dul.

That's a fair point - I don't play Lim-Dul for not being good enough.  lim dul only does creatures, so the all permanent thing is cool.  Prince is also a beefy 7/7 which makes him a lot better, too.  I feel like Prince is mostly just going to make people take extra damage, so we'll have to see if that's good enough - at least Lim-dul would definitly convert the creatures, so this is certainly a fair point.

[VikingMetal4L]

Imagine someone casts Hynox - do you want Dominate or GS?

Actually you can't steal Hypnox's CIP ability with Gather Specimens because when it comes into play, you did not play it from your hand.  Same goes for all the Myojin and all the respective interactions with Spelljack, Guile, Desertion, Temporal Aperature, Brilliant Ultimatum, etc.  Sure is funny when people try it, though (and it would be even funnier if I ran Phage the Liability--by the way, what are people's experiences with her, is she a real Queen of Spades for the poor sap who gets stuck with her?).

What are Smmenen's favorite T4 cards in Alara?  Or will I need SCG Premium to find out?

Q

[Mr. Type 4]

i play Phage in my stack and everyone hates it.  lol, she is so awful.

i think you're right about it not comming into play from your hand.  that's a subtle distinction since it was played from someone's hand.


Steve picked Resounding Silence as his number one, too.  I don't want to step on his toes, tho - I'm sure he'd like to share his top 5 himself.

[Anusien]

Correct.  Hypnox's ability will not trigger because you did not play it from your hand.

[VikingMetal4L]

After attending the pre-release today and seeing the *real* texts of Necrogenesis and Invincible Hymn, I have to say that Necrogenesis is good for type 4 (replaces Night Soil, which has been a solid grave hater and chump blocker), and Invincible Hymn just isn't what I thought it was.  It sets your life total to X rather than just gaining you X life.  So I made the appropriate edit to my list above.

Q

[Mr. Type 4]

necrogenesis will def be better than Night Soil. My question is how many graveyard removeal effects are necessary.  There are even more graveyard abuse cards inthis set, tho - so more are probably welcome.

[Anusien]

Do you all prefer to grow your stack or keep it constant sized?  In other words do you often replace cards with new cards, or just add more cards?

[Wagner]

I usually try to keep a balance and to remove cards the are strictly worse than another.

So, if Necrogenesis goes in, Night Soil is out.

Also, since there are more and more potent counterspells, I will remove the bland and boring ones to keep a balance. Same thing when a lot of good fatties are printed, the good but not as good fatties in the stack will get the boot in they don't offer a very unique aspect.

Ie: Bloodfire Colossus is a unique creature and will probably never get booted, however, Tidal Kraken and Sekki are pretty boring and not that impressive and will be.

But yes the stack does get bigger here, althought cuts are made when such and such a card are never played (we usually rochester draft 40 cards and then give 3-4 at random to each player so they can cut some)