A Second Potential Nut Kicking Card

[Webster]

I just want to go on record saying i think this one is pretty good.  If it's not good the day it's released, then someday it will be good.  This has potential to draw a TON of cards for 5 mana, and there's something inherantly good about that.

The question that needs to be asked is, "Does this card make [insert random tendrils deck here] the best?"

Sure, you can draw a lot of cards. The point I am bringing up is whether or not the direction which the deck is being forced to go due to the changes needed to accomodate Ad Nauseam is making it better or worse.

The logical shell is a non-fow tendrils deck with no grim tutors similar to the 'bob-fueled-tendrils' that deck that was out in June/July. I can't really see myself playing that.

[OwenTheEnchanter]

Ya im with Webster on this one playing with cards like Force, Grim Tutor, and DSC are going to make this card pretty risky. I can't see a combo deck playing more than one of these and even then it probably wont be better than something that people already dont play like Skeletal Scrying.

[Liam-K]

It probably won't happen with Force, and certainly not with DSC.

However, didn't chrome mox and personal tutor just get unrestricted?  There are a lot of ways to make this card do very unpleasant things.  I think it has serious potential.  In fact, I'll go so far as to say if a respectable deck containing 3+ of these doesn't happen, it's probably because no one tried hard enough.

[Xyre]

The deck that probably will make the most out of Ad Nauseum would be an update of Forino Black (the B/u control deck Vincent Forino took to 8th place at the 07 Vintage Championships).

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant

Enchantments
1 Necropotence

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Echoing Truth
2 Extirpate
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
3 Grim Tutor
3 Night's Whisper
3 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Basic Lands
4 Swamp

Lands
2 Bazaar Of Baghdad
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Cabal Pit
1 Library Of Alexandria
3 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
2 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland

Obviously it needs tweaking for a different format, it has some interesting choices, and Dark Confidant and Ad Nauseum feel like too much of a good thing, but if you want a black ritual deck, this is probably the place to start. I like the idea of minoring blue for Recall and bounce spells, though.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

please, to everyone: this Card is called AD NAUSEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM. Not Nauseum.

Webster was like the only one to spell it right. I even pointed that out earlier in this thread. It's one thing when someone spells a card wrong, but everyone?

[Lemnear]

To me it's important to know that the averange number of drawn cards is. Of course it could act like Bargain but is it really more impressive than the cutted FoF, Tinker or Jar? Yes, it work different but the average damage done is still pretty high (Grim Tutor = 3+3 Lifeloss) so I doubt that it really draw more than the named ones...

[wox2]

To me it's important to know that the averange number of drawn cards is. Of course it could act like Bargain but is it really more impressive than the cutted FoF, Tinker or Jar? Yes, it work different but the average damage done is still pretty high (Grim Tutor = 3+3 Lifeloss) so I doubt that it really draw more than the named ones...

It is question I was asking before. As Nauseam is similar to Bargain in affect. If you can play 4 Bargains do you play them? There are reasons to play them and there are reasons to not playe them. If you wil have so many bombs in deck and not enought mana it is wrong. When I was testing my version of deck yesterday my friend told me that it is brutal. I did some T1 kills - maybe not so much. But if deck resolved Nauseam I won independent how many cards have I drawn. I played games against Fow, Double Fow, Drain during few first two turns...

I never Play in Grim long Facts or Fiction due to randomness. Draw seven cards are easier to cast but deck sometimes draws nothing and they are symetrical. Ad Nauseam draws much cards but is not each time easy castable... I am not sure what is better. 

[Troy_Costisick]

I’m going to riff off Xyre a little bit and move forward with my earlier suggestion of designing a new archetype for this card.  I call this one Black Long (the name of it reminds of the disease Black Lung, so it sorta fits).

Maindeck:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
2 Culling of the Weak

4 Dark Confidant
4 Priest of Gix

4 Ad Nauseam
1 Necropotence
1 Night’s Whisper

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Death Wish

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress

1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Tendrils of Agony

5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
10 Swamp

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Powder Keg/Engineered Explosives
4 Cruel Edict/Bone Splinter
1 Thoughtseize
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Lich’s Mirror

Briefly,

The Deck’s Strengths: Primarily a very stable mana base (basic swamps are hard to kill/neuter) and secondly, this deck can be built cheaply.

The Deck’s Weaknesses: Its worst matchup is vs. a 9 Sphere deck.  It has no real maindeck answer to them other than its ability to generate massive amounts of mana and overcome their presence.

The Design So far: I think the mana base needs tweaking and since I tend to design decks a little too conservatively; there may be too many rituals at the moment.
More In-depth,

I’m choosing mono-black to see if the stability and certainty of basic swamps provides an advantage over Pitch Long or TPS.  At the moment, I’m not sure 10 swamps are enough.  I’d probably feel more comfortable if I could get 12 in there somehow.
The control/disruption of this deck comes from the 8 Duress-type spells and the 5 wasteland effects.  These are there to buy enough time to get the combo off.

As far as individual card choices go, I’ll start with the creatures.  Dark Confidant is a little risky w/ AdN, but it’s worth it to generate early card advantage IMO.  38 cards in this deck have a CC of 1 or less, so there isn’t too much of a danger in killing yourself.  I’d prefer if that number were above 40, but for right now it’s okay.  Priest of Gix is a nice storm builder and can be cast off a swamp, wasteland, and a mox to provide BBB.  He’s a decent compliment to Bob and a nice enabler for other spells.

Culling of the Weak is a card that’s been begging to be broken in Vintage for years.  Combining it with PoGix and Bob give it the perfect opportunity to shine.  It’s nice to turn Bob into BBBB after he’s outlived his usefulness.  And along those same lines, Cabal Therapy has nice interaction with the two creatures.  It’s not as strong as Duress or Thoughtseize in the early game, but in the mid to late game, it’s a game breaker.

I have bad luck a lot, so Night’s Whisper is in there for times when I AdN and end up with a Vamp Tutor or Imperial Seal in my hand with no tendrils.  You can stop the AdN whenever you have enough cards to win.  So if I AdN 7-8 cards with enough rituals to storm 10 and have 6-8 life or so, I’ll cast Tutor/Seal, get my tendrils, then cast Night’s Whisper to draw it and win.

My tutor package is pretty strait forward.  Death Wish is in there just to have a second chance at Tendrils in my board or to snag Thought Seize if I need to make sure my opponent has no counters in hand.  It can also go get Lich’s Mirror.  If necessary, I can then cast the mirror, kill myself, and reset my hand with extra mana in my pool and storm count if I can’t win right away for some reason.

The Wastes/Strip are there just to help me disrupt my opponent until I can win.

One thing I found while testing is that I don’t need to draw cards with AdN until I’m at 1 life.  I just need to get enough cards to win.  If that means stopping with 8-10 life, then I stop.  AdN allows you to make lots of good decisions, rather than just spending your life down to almost nil and comboing out with extra cards in hand.

The sideboard has Powder Keg or Engineered Explosives to deal with cards like Chalice and Spheres.  It’s not perfect, but they can serve when needed.  Leyline is there for Dragon and Ichorid.  Also, I have Cruel Edicts for DSC or Bone Splinters for Angels.  A lot of choices will depend on one’s individual meta.

One noticeable absence is Yawg’s Bargain.  At 6 mana, it hurts too much with Bob and AdN.  And with Necro, Bob, Whisper, AdN, and Yaw’s Will, I don’t really need it IMO.

Anyway, it’s a place to start with a newish Long archetype.  It certainly needs a lot of tweaking and optimization, but so far it’s a lot of fun to play.

On a special note, for environments where there are no proxies allowed (like our good friends in Europe), you can sub in 4 Chrome Mox and a Mox Diamond for the regular 5 Moxen, a Demonic Consultation or something for the Imp Seal, and an extra Culling of the Weak or some other black mana source for the Lotus.  This deck is fairly cheap to build and a lot of fun to play, so those who want to play Longish decks but can’t afford all the restricted cards and dual lands, this may be a possible alternative. (just note, that this is still a rough draft of a deck)

Peace,

-Troy

[wox2]

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
2 Culling of the Weak

4 Dark Confidant
4 Priest of Gix

4 Ad Nauseam
1 Necropotence
1 Night’s Whisper

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Death Wish

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress

1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Tendrils of Agony

5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
10 Swamp

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Powder Keg/Engineered Explosives
4 Cruel Edict/Bone Splinter
1 Thoughtseize
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Lich’s Mirror

I am missing Mana Crypt in your build. Your deck will have problem to find tendrils in my opinion. 1 Death Wish as a tutor aded to demonic is not enought. Vampiric and Imperial are the lowest costed Tutors but you cannot Tutor for Tendrils and just win during Ad Nauseam Turn (with vampiric is possible to cast Nauseam EOT and Vampiric for tendrils in upkeep when it is in drawn cards). I reccomend Grim Tutors-you have good Mana Base that enable to kill your opponent just with Yawg Will.

I don´t see much ways you can kill yourself with lich mirror. 1 Necropotence, 1 Night’s Whisper, 1 Vampiric Tutor, 1 Imperial Seal can kill you. You need 3 mana for Death Wish, 5 for Lich´s Mirror and then some mana to make a suicide. I don´t think it is better way than to just cast Memory Jar or Grim Tutor... I don´t count Nauseam or Bob for this plan-Bob kills you in upkeep - you get no extra mana. Nauseam kills you for 5 mana + 3 mana for Death Wish + 5 for Lich´s Mirror seems to me that you will have no mana floating if you will have enought... 

[Liam-K]

Everyone's trying to compare this card to bargain, for obvious reasons.

It occurs to me a more apt comparison may be Memory Jar.  Jar plays often involve untapping before drawing, though not always, and are expected to win the game by drawing 7.  7 cards is a totally reasonable expected return on Ad Nauseam, 14 life at an unusually-high-for-storm 2cc average.  The Jar also costs the same amount of mana.  Jar is admittedly awkward without tinker, but it does not have the benefit of being an instant under its belt.  Jar does not cost life to use, but it also has two unfortunate drawbacks not shared by Ad Nauseam: firstly denying you access to the cards in your hand at the time of activation, and more importantly allowing your opponent to draw 7 cards themselves.

Would you try to build a deck with 4 jars if it were unrestricted?

Would you try to build a deck including multiples of Contract From Below if it were legalized for 3BB?  How about with the "discard your hand" clause removed?

[brianpk80]

However, didn't chrome mox and personal tutor just get unrestricted?  There are a lot of ways to make this card do very unpleasant things.  I think it has serious potential.  In fact, I'll go so far as to say if a respectable deck containing 3+ of these doesn't happen, it's probably because no one tried hard enough.

Very much agreed.  It wouldn't work optimally just being "thrown in" to a currently existing deck as an afterthought, but with enough brainpower behind it, someone could very plausibly build a shell to bust it wide open.

-B

[Lemnear]

Now I've tested several builds, reducing all the hurting cards like DSC etc. to 2-3 Tendrils, Necro, 4 AN and Bargain using 4 Duress and 4 Thougtseize as protection. I've played AN around 32 times till now only drawing 10 cards or more by revealing masses of lands. The averange count of cards drawn is bout 7-8 till I stoped due to critical life. That fits pretty well with the ~conv. manacost of the deck (guess around 1.6 in one of my testing list). With this in mind we could discuss if 5 mana = 7 cards is that insane...

@Liam: Guess the 5 mana = 7 cards topic fits well with your question of playing 4 Jars. What we should compare is:

Opponent drawing too vs. paying a critical amount of life (so restricting the use of Grims, ISeal etc.)

With contract from below: Guess you erased nearly the whole card, asking if it would be good  And again you skipped the fact that you've tend to go critical life...

[Troy_Costisick]

Now I've tested several builds, reducing all the hurting cards like DSC etc. to 2-3 Tendrils, Necro, 4 AN and Bargain using 4 Duress and 4 Thougtseize as protection. I've played AN around 32 times till now only drawing 10 cards or more by revealing masses of lands. The averange count of cards drawn is bout 7-8 till I stoped due to critical life. That fits pretty well with the ~conv. manacost of the deck (guess around 1.6 in one of my testing list). With this in mind we could discuss if 5 mana = 7 cards is that insane...

3 tendrils is too many IMHO.  Also, I don't like Thoughtseize since it costs me life to play.  I've replaced it with Cabal Therapy in my build and been pretty happy with its performance.  I'd also recomend removing Bargain from your list.  I think it's just redundant with all the ANs. An average mana cost of 1.6 is out of my range of comfort for an AN deck.  The one I listed above comes in at 1.35.  That's a little bit more tolerable IMO.

I don´t see much ways you can kill yourself with lich mirror. 1 Necropotence, 1 Night’s Whisper, 1 Vampiric Tutor, 1 Imperial Seal
can kill you. You need 3 mana for Death Wish, 5 for Lich´s Mirror and then some mana to make a suicide. I don´t think it is better way than to just cast Memory Jar or Grim Tutor... I don´t count Nauseam or Bob for this plan-Bob kills you in upkeep - you get no extra mana. Nauseam kills you for 5 mana + 3 mana for Death Wish + 5 for Lich´s Mirror seems to me that you will have no mana floating if you will have enought... 

I have Lich's mirror in the SB for two reasons.  1, is admittadly the novelty of the card.  2, is a panic button for when things go wrong.  I don't have to activate it right away.  I can let it sit there until I'm ready to go off.  Like I said, I tend to have bad luck and design conservatively.  I readily admit there is probably a better card that could go into that slot.

Peace,

-Troy

[Harlequin]

I've done a little testing with this card as well.  Actually as part of a Doomsday deck (tested Ad N. as a 2 of, but eventually dropped it to a 1 of).

One thing that impressed me about it is what Lemnear touched on.  Ad Nauseam never really 'fails.'  Every combo player has had that one time when you jar'ed into 3 lands, 2 artifacts and 2 rits and just got pooped on.  Ad N draws those lands for no cost to you.  So even if the top 10 cards of your deck are lands and mox you're still basically ensured to get 2-3 or more gas cards.  In this way it's much more reliably than a random draw 7.

[ix-ir]

An average CC of 0.8 when going off makes Ad Nauseum comparable with Yawgmoth's Bargain.

Baghdad Nauseum

        4 Polluted Delta
        3 Flooded Strand
        1 Island
        1 Swamp
        2 Underground Sea
        1 Tolarian Academy
        4 Bazaar of Baghdad
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Lion's Eye Diamond
        2 Chrome Mox
        4 Pact of Negation
        1 Chain of Vapor
        1 Brainstorm
        1 Ponder
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Imperial Seal
        4 Dark Ritual
        4 Duress
        3 Thoughtseize
        1 Hurkyl's Recall
        1 Merchant Scroll
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Tendrils of Agony
        4 Ad Nauseum

You only need one Tendrils as you will find draw and a tutor as the low average CC lets you draw plenty from Ad Nauseum. 11 disruption and 2 bounce means the deck's reasonably equipped to protect itself.

[Negator13]

Ad Nauseam may be comparable to Bargain in that deck, but it certainly isn't better, so I can't imagine why you would run a 4/0 split rather than 3/1.

[ix-ir]

It's instant, has a lower CC and draws 1.25 times as many cards, why would you run Yawgmoth's Bargain over one?

Webster: that's true but you will draw draw from Ad Nauseum as well so your top deck tutors are still useful. If anything I'd probably run all 4 and Yawgmoth's Bargain, I just started off on the side of lowest average CC.

[Webster]

It's instant, has a lower CC and draws 1.25 times as many cards, why would you run Yawgmoth's Bargain over one?

Simply because of topdeck tutors and their synergy with bargain.

[Xyre]

You probably don't want 4 Ad Nauseum unless you're playing a significant (3+) number of Chrome Moxen to compensate. Ad Nauseum is really bad in multiples, and you can tutor for it just fine.

Ix-Ir - I think 11 disruption spells is too much. I'd cut 1 Ad Nauseum and 2 Thoughtseizes for 3 Cabal Ritual on first blush.

[Jay]

I've been gold fishing this for about a week and I'm really starting to like ix-ir's version.  It may need a little tweaking, but I think you should try running it as is before suggesting taking out any of the ad nauseum or running bargain.  I've seen it draw 20 cards for 16 life on turn 1.  Needless to say it hit tendrils for well over 20 with disruption in hand.  I was against running 4, but the way that deck is set up, you really want to draw 1 and hitting 1 during another's resolution won't kill you.  I'd like to hear more results on play testing it, as well as more critique, preferably from people who have tried it.

[Lemnear]

I'd agree with the Chrome Moxen. Rising the number fits well. Harlequin marked the spot I mentioned before that drawing moxen and lands cost you 0 life instead of the 1 by drawing via bargain. But I missed a comment 'bout my general topic, that lists with 4 AN are damn light of bombs ... countered/discarded AN's will break your neck.

Moreover all the topdeck-tutors are insanely weak ... imagine a list like ix-ir's (no flamin' here  ) drawing 'bout 15 cards 4 crit. life eot and not hittn' Demonic or Tendrills... so I prefered to run more tendrils in my list. I'm able to draw via AN (maybe tutored before), spawn mana, cast drawn tendrils and continue with more AN/Topdeck-tutors and plenty of life.

[Liam-K]

Note that chrome mox also makes a huge increase to your free nonland B sources.  Classicly squeezing off Bargain without floating anything and having already used your land drop makes it difficult to win this turn.  Increasing your ways to get ritual online in that situation from 3 to 5-6 is really good.

I agree that ix-ir's disruption count of 11 looks way too high especially with such a low bomb count.  Spending life on Thoughtseize may prove to hurt too much as well.  PoN probably belongs.  I'd start at 7 pieces ala pitch long.

[ix-ir]

It was still a very rough list, I'd agree with adding more Chrome Mox and Cabal Ritual to ensure you hit the black and blue mana needed. It might also work better to run 2 Tendrils so fewer cards are needed to draw into Tendrils on average. This deck is much harder to make well in Vintage than in Legacy IMO, losing full access to Mystical Tutor, Ponder and Brainstorm hurts (and convinces me that Wizards were correct to restrict both Brainstorm and Ponder). I disagree with what a lot of you are saying about top deck tutors however, once you've done off you'd generally need only 1 tutor and one draw to get Tendrils. You'll usually draw into that from Ad Nauseum.

[Purple Hat]

ix-ir: why are you playing bazaar?  I love the card, I'm just not clear on why it's here.

[nineisnoone]

Makes a lot of sense to me.  Drawing Bazaar basically means that you get 2 free cards off an Ad Nauseum since you'll generally have 3 cards you'd be willing to discard. 

[Harlequin]

Another Idea is to run Ad Nausem in a 0cc creature combo deck (either Kobalds or walker/shield/orni).  Culling the Weak is a great way to ramp up to Ad N also you gain access to 4x DT in the form of Diabolic Intent.  Run it with Clamp and/or Glipse of Nature. 

Probably not good enough for T1 though...

[Mr. Type 4]

Makes a lot of sense to me.  Drawing Bazaar basically means that you get 2 free cards off an Ad Nauseum since you'll generally have 3 cards you'd be willing to discard. 

typically you won't have the luxury of playing another land the turn you ad naus. Bazaar is good to accelerate you to threshold for Cabal Ritual, but I don't know if that's a compelling enough reason to run it.

[ix-ir]

As I said it was a very rough list. It seemed like a good replacement for all the Brainstorm and Ponder effects lost but the loss of the 2nd black land drop on turn 2 is a pain. Sensei's Divining Top may be a better choice, this also combos more effectively with topdeck tutors after going off.

[2ndMain]

I totally got slapped around by Becker last night playing his Nauseam list.  Its good, really good.  I'm not going to spoil it for you guys but I will say that it isn't like most of the lists posted on this thread so far.  I'm sure he'll blog about it soon, probably after he dominates the next local tourney 

[policehq]

Another Idea is to run Ad Nausem in a 0cc creature combo deck (either Kobalds or walker/shield/orni).  Culling the Weak is a great way to ramp up to Ad N also you gain access to 4x DT in the form of Diabolic Intent.  Run it with Clamp and/or Glipse of Nature. 

Probably not good enough for T1 though...

Even though Ad Nauseam is an instant and Infernal Contract is a sorcery, it would seem theoretically that a decklist based on either would be vulnerable to a single counterspell.

What was the European Tendrils list with the Shield Spheres and Ornithopters called? KI.TT? It had Infernal Contracts and Cruel Bargains with Culling The Weak. It was always exciting to resolve a Draw-4, but if it was countered, you lost a lot of resources.