[Deck Discussion] GI's (Hadley) Control Tezzeret

[Mr. Type 4]

Quote
Transmute Artifact

My problem with this card is that the real card you need to get is time vault (since you can run as many voltaic keys/trinket mages as you please) which means that you need     plus at least   to activate the key.  This is the exact cost it takes to play tezzeret; this means you've got to already have the key and it's two cards instead of one.  For comparable mana and one fewer cards, I'd rather just play another Tezzeret.  Also, if they have artifact removal for the time vault (or key), your other piece is largely useless.  Whereas Tezzeret still can fetch out more toys, or untap your mana, or, eventually, create an army of 5/5 artifact guys.

I put transmute artifact in the list for a couple reasons.  First, I have a small subset of good targets in there and Transmute is great to get Tormod's, Blotus, Key or Time Vault.  Trinket Mage doesnt get TV, so I def wanted something that does.  The big thng that Transmute does that other things dont is creates another out to the "I have Infy turns, but I got Mana Crypt out there" situation.  You can only play 1 Tinker, and honestly I think another Tinker is a great thing to have.  Tez also sucks when the opponent has a Tez out.  I could play my Tez to stop his OR I can Transmute Artifact FTW. 

It's also pretty cool with Yawg Will to go get Lotus AND sac a Mox.  So much post Will mana that way. Anyone that plays black in this deck and doesnt play Yawg Will needs to stop smoking rocks. 

Voltaic Key is awesome.  Tez is fragile as hell, but key sure isn't. 

[Liam-K]

If you're running transmute artifact is a single scroll rack a bad plan?  Probably, but I really wished it was a trinket mage target when brainstorm bit it and it occurs to me again now.

[skrwbal]

some things i have noticed about this deck.  Why run library why not run academy ruins instead? As far as draw engines go i was wonderin if anyone had attempted to try out the u capsule. I wanted to point out that this deck is in many ways similar to CS so why not try and run a CS style build? it would give you all the control elements of cs while having the combo in it as well. Also would some one mind posting a solid 3 color list and go into depth and detail about certain card choices. Im askin all this becuase i plan on going waaay out of my way to to go to a decent size t1 even this weekend and this deck seem extremely solid to me. Seeing as it has been quite some time since i have played i just wanted to get as much info on the deck as i could before i go. As far board ideas go i was wonderin if i could see a couple too please . any help i could get would be much apprciated ty.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Why run library why not run academy ruins instead?

Because LoA single-handedly wins games and ruins is a slow, situational card.

i plan on going waaay out of my way to to go to a decent size t1 even this weekend

Where?  Is the event posted here?  What do you expect the field will be?

[skrwbal]

its the philly event for the lotus and im not to sure what the meta will be.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Also would some one mind posting a solid 3 color list and go into depth and detail about certain card choices.

As Blue Bell is typically heavy on combo and control (and the fish that hates it), you may be right that running four colors (mostly to gain ancient grudge) isn't necessary.  That being said, I haven't seen any results from that area since Shards is legal.

If I was going to go three color, I'd probably take green over red.  Yes, REB is good, but I think duress/thoughtseize is worthy of the maindeck given the metagame and it's much better against Adstorm.  The artifact destruction in green isn't that far behind red and tarmogoyf is amazing out of the board.

I'd look at something like this:

4 FoW
4 Mana Drain
3 Thoughtseize
1 Echoing Truth

2 Trinket Mage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 AK
2 Intuition
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm

1 Tinker
1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgwill

3 Tezzeret
1 Sundering Titan
1 Time Vault

8 Solomoxcrypt
6 Fetch
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 LoA
1 Tolarian Academy

SB:
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Duress
2 Trygon Predator
2 Oxidize
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Tormody's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip

This allows you to go up to 6 duress effects against combo, it brings in lots of removal and creatures against fish, and you can tailor your trinket mage package postboard.  I don't want to go over every card choice, but if anything isn't obvious just ask.

[c dizzle]

My problem with this card is that the real card you need to get is time vault (since you can run as many voltaic keys/trinket mages as you please) which means that you need  plus at least  to activate the key.  This is the exact cost it takes to play tezzeret; this means you've got to already have the key and it's two cards instead of one.

Here are just a couple of places where Transmute Artifact is good:

Two blue + Mana Vault or Sol Ring gets you what you need to go off (Time Vault) with Key already in play.

Two blue + any other two mana gets you Key with activation mana if you have Time Vault.

If you are stuck at four mana, you can net one more to play Tez by turning a Mox into a Lotus.

Paul already mentioned having the ability to get rid of a Mana Crypt after you have infinite turns.

That's just a couple of situations, but there are several more.

[Rush]

EDIT: Also, how is your Fish match-up?  I quit running this deck because it kept losing to Fish.
Finally, is Intuition + AK really working out that well for you?  I tried running your shell and was never a fan of that draw engine.  A good many of the builds I've seen chose TFK instead.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Here are just a couple of places where Transmute Artifact is good

I concede that if you have mana and other one-of's, then transmute is good.  That is not a high enough criteria for me to include it.  Also, I've continued to cut utility artifacts like tormod's crypt from my list, cutting down on its utility.

is Intuition + AK really working out that well for you?

Very few people are.  For me it's always been superior to TFK.  Increasingly I'm coming to the opinion that people have no idea how to optimize intuition.

Fish match-up

A lot of it depends on what you do with the last five slots.  It tends to be about even pre-board and favorable post-board.  I'm referring to UBG Fish here; I haven't tested against UW, UWB, or the very cool looking RGW beat down deck.  My guess would be that the faster the clock they have the better it is for you.  If they sit around and try to disrupt you, you should be able to trade with them, develop a manabase and then make a big play either with tinker or yawgwill.

[Clint_NZ]

I see a lot of arguements over Intuition/AK over TFK but has anyone tried to run both?
Maybe TFK as a 3 of?

Years ago there was a slaver variant that ran both, I think it was "Goth" Slaver (Can't find a list)

If someone has tried this I am very interested to know the results.

Just a thought

[LordHomerCat]

Goth Slaver didn't run any black cards, which opened up room for more draw (plus it kinda needed more since it couldn't just cast Will and replay it all).  All the intuition engines take up a ton of slots already, and you would have to cut duresses or something if you wanted TFK in addition, which I know I am not willing to do.

Also, after a while, almost everyone was running CS with Black over Goth Slaver, presumably because they realized it wasn't worth it to cut Will and DT.

[Clint_NZ]

Maybe I am just being greedy...

But after my last post I had a play around with adding TFKs.
This is a rough list and I haven't tested but like the look.

4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Intuition
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Brainstorm
3 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Regrowth
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Echoing Truth
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Tinker
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Island

Like I said I just might be a little too greedy. But drawing cards feels soo good.

The one cut I am unsure about is Mystical Tutor, I really do not like running it with Vampiric and
as I have added more blue spells the ability to pitch to FOW is not hindered. I never really liked
Trinket Mage so he got the chop aswell.

Cheers

[vassago]

i actually enjoyed reading this article up untill now.  i do like the different approachs and opinions regarding this deck. i will offer my two cents on voltaic key. absolutely love it. i played a time vault list shortly before tezz was legal, and i x-0'd our local tournament with it.  i also have to agree with the inclusion of trinket mage, which from all the things i have read so far, it should be obvious why he can be good. and for the arguement over TFK vs AK/INT, i would have to say that i like TFK better, in part mainly due to the space allocated to the specific build i run. i also do not want to help fuel any one else playing AK/INT engines. i also have been playing a tezz deck recently that is b/r/u. i like the idea having mox monkey and rack and ruin when one of the most played artifacts happens to be null rodd. here is the list i have been liking lately

4 trinket mage
4 force of will
4 mana drain
4 thirst for knowledge
2 mox monkey
1 rack ruin
1 echoing truth
ponder
brainstrom
ancestral recall
timewalk
tinker
v tutor
d tutor
m tutor
e-e
t- crypt
"top"
voltaic key
time vault
2 tezz
darksteele colossus
yawgmot's win/will
sol ring
mana cypt
mana vault
black lotus
5 mox
3 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
 tolarian academy
 library of alexandria
1 underground sea
2 volcanis island
3 island
1 swamp

i hate feeling so "generic" by posting a list but it is a reference point for those who want to see where i am coming from when i provide an opinion on a certain card(s).   

[Qasur]

There has been some very invigorating discussion about Tezzeret in here.

The best thing about this was the debate over TfK and Int+AK. I think it's been well known that both can be very good, but which is better? I think I've been a fan of Thirst for Knowledge way too long to even consider going back to AK, mostly on the back of Intuition. I've always felt that when I upgraded to Moxen + other maindecked artifacts, that the idea of using a subpar, over costed system of 5 mana to draw 3 cards versus 3 mana to draw 3 cards was a no-brainer. The biggest ups for AK I see only come from having the ability to spend 2-mana later to draw 4 at instant speed, without discarding. That by-far beats spending 3 to draw at most 2 cards (including the discard.)

Either way, through my testing with the deck (from initial conception of just using a standard Blue Bullshit build) up to the current one has shown that there are lots of "advance" the deck can take. I think by a long shot that no deck in Vintage is super innovative, but let me add that the definition of "innovation" is "Taking and idea or concept, expanding on it, and then commercializing it." The word "commercializing" in Magic is more of the concept of "creating an archetype" or "respectable and copyable decklist that doesn't lose to the field". So, yes, there is always new innovation in Magic, even if it's using older ideas in a new light with new cards, that's still taking an "idea or concept" and trying to make it the "commercial winner".

Away from that aside: Tezzeret is good, and I feel that what I like most about Tezzeret is the ability to include Voltaic Key as a combo piece. While many players have been against the cards inclusion, I tossed it in during the first run every of putting the deck together. I originally wanted to run 3 Tez and Time Vault, but decided last minute to go 2 Tez, 1 Vault, 1 Voltaic Key... and I've never looked back since then.

Smennen, and others of this thread, have it right in that Tezzeret is the best win condition for control decks. In place of the traditional Keeper's Morphling, you put 2 Tezzerets instead. The difference, as mentioned, it only requires an untap to win the game instead of +4 Turns. This is very crucial, and with the addition of black (for Tutors at the minimum), the deck gains the ability to actually win without Tez too (in the use of Voltaic key.) There were a few games where I just opened with D.Tutor, V.Tutor, Force+Backup, and just won in two turns. It's not overly hard to just put a 1cc and 2cc artifact in play. Harder feats have been accomplished in Vintage, like recurring a 6-mana artifact with a 4-mana activation that wins the game too. In equivalence, you never wanted more than maybe 2 Slavers (usually only 1), and in Tez, Time Vault is restricted, and you don't want a 2nd Key.

Here's the list that I've been tuning, both before, and after reading:

2 Tezzeret
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
2 Trinket Mage
1 Sensei's Divinning Top
1 Tinker
1 Sundering Titan
1 Tormod's Crypt

1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
6 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Academy Ruins
4 Moxen
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring

First off, I don't own the 5th Mox, Lotus, or Time Walk, so there is an excess of land, but I've played it proxied too (and the difference is huge when speaking of Yawgmoth's Will + Time Walk when casting Gifts Piles.)

This is just my current sleeved list, but it's still been winning games. The biggest change I made early on was going more control than Combo, and I swapped Imperial Seal for Mystical Tutor. 1, mystical pitches to FoW, and 2, Mystical still finds clutch cards, like A.Recall, Gifts, FoF, and Tinker, and 3, it's an instant... that's been important when you need Drain up.

The biggest problem this deck has faced so far is Tendrils based decks. After attempting to find a solution for it, I just easily fell back into post-Psychatog Mono-Blue builds: Running 3-4 Chalice of the Void in the main. Sadly, I hated not being able to play Voltaic Key here, despite shoring up one match... I lost many tools for other matches (Pithing Needle and Key.) So, instead, I opted to try Duress/Thoughtseize. They were OK in some instances, but I quickly found to squeeze them into the deck required cutting cards to be Proactive rather than Reactive, so I took them out and put answers in the deck instead (the artifacts package: Trinket Mages, Tormod's Crypt, E.Explosive, & S.D.Top.)

As far as cutting CotV altogether... I did not. Instead, I put all 4 in the sideboard. I found that games 2 &3 of Storm you needed answers, even proactive; so I usually brought in 2 Sower of Temptation and 4 Chalice of the Void. Originally I did test Duress here, but still found that playing it when I needed to hold drain up was just bad. Clumped hands of Duress and Drains are just GG for you... especially when facing a speedy deck where they also Duress/Thougtseize you. If they Duress you and see Duress + Drain, and decide to take Drain because they aren't holding a key-win-card, then your Duress is wasted on nothing and you'll end up losing, or they'll take your duress, leaving a wasted Drain until the fetch another Duress/Thoughtseize (and against a few on line guys, they packed +2-4 Thoughtseizes extra after board against control.)

These are just the scenarios I've ran into so far, and even some enlightenment on how I play my list. There are 2 Hurkyll's Recalls and 2 Thoughtseizes in the board. Although I disliked having discard, the Thoughtseizes proved useful versus aggro or even aggro-control, like Stifle-Nought... if you take their Noughts, then there's less kill conditions to face. Or, being able to take Confidant is really nice. It was just a better card than Duress, and can also be a valid trade versus Stacks, where I usually went -2 Drains +2 Thoughtseize if I was on the draw. I also tossed in a Singleton Darkblast. It's tutorable, kills Confidants and Welders, and makes Trinket on Trinket uneven combat (although that's subpar.) Without Green, using it without Goyf's seems wrong, but the positives outweigh the negatives. I originally wanted to run 2 Trops (1 Main 1 Board) and 3 Goyfs, but didn't for some reason or the other... I still may. There are open slots in the deck and sideboard for customization.

EDIT: Played a few games with a friend, and I decided to try Goyf's... they weren't bad, but not good either. Pretty decent versus Storm too, as they sometimes fill the yard with instants, lands, sorceries, and artifacts for me. Anyways, here's the sideboard that I modified:

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Hurkyll's Recall
2 Thoughtseize
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Tropical Island
3 Tarmogoyfs
1 Rushing River
1 Darkblast

Generally, when I bring in the Chalice of the Voids, the maindeck 1cc spells start taking a quick cut. Vampiric Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Sensei's Divinning Top, Ponder, Volcatic Key, and Rebuild Usually come out. Trinket mages get's weaker, but can still fetch Tormod's Crypt AND CotV, so I leave it in. The most common inclusion is +4 CotV and +2 Sower of Temptation. Sower is odd, but gives me an interesting out versus secondary Robot-like wins, and is good when opponent tries to swap-up and include Goyfs.

[Eastman]

I've been testing this a good amount too, although my current decklist is still in flux.  A lot of the lists that have just been posted are intriguing, and I'd like to jump off them to raise the questions that I am currently weighing about the construction of this deck:

Qasar's list runs Trinket Mage.  How important are the extra blockers for Tezzeret, and how useful is Trinket Mage?
     In my experience the Trinket Mages are great but the package of cards you run with it force you into a line of play that I just don't think the deck wants.  I want to get my combo pieces together, not play control, in most instances.  So two questions: (1) How useful is that more controlling line of play, and (2) How necessary are blockers to protect Tezzeret?  I am currently inclined to conclude that the few extra creatures just aren't worth the slots.

Some lists abroad have run lots of Repeal: http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=936
    Is this any good?  Apparently some people abroad have had great success with Repeal, but in my testing it just has not turned up to be a useful card.  Are there any arguments for it?

Some lists abroad have used Welder: http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=949
   I am very intrigued by the use of a couple welder's in this deck.  Returning Vault and Key are obviously very powerful tools, and this is going to be the next thing that I test.  Has anyone had any experience with Welder-ed lists that they can speak to? 

Everyone but Grand_Inquisitor seems to be running Fact or Fiction (see above)
   I am convinced that this is the right move.  I think Steve doesn't like it because of the high casting cost, but I find that the ability to dig through 5 cards at a point in the game where you are just looking for the other piece to lock things up is huge.  FoF keeps coming up big.  I make this point not so much because I'm curious about other's experiences (I tend to think they are much the same) but to try to convince GI in particular to switch it up.

Duress or Misdirection?
   It seems  that some run a few MisD, some run a few Duress, as the extra few counters.  I'd like to know the thought process that is going into this.  I really find misdirection to be an altogether weak card in a slot that needs to be stopping opposing null rods and slowing the opponent.  I know that Misdirection helps own the stack, but doesn't it run into issues of lacking the extra blue card to pitch?  Finally, this deck does not have a lot to do on turn 1, and I find first turn duress' to be a consistently strong play in a situation where I'd otherwise be saying land-go.  [and maybe the decision on this question will depend on whether one is seeking out red for a goblin welder]


 

[Odd mutation]

I put transmute artifact in the list for a couple reasons.

Does the trick with Sundering Titan still work, do come into play abilities trigger?

Robrecht.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Trinket Mage

I really like the mages.  If I expected a metagame with few control/combo decks, I'd certainly run them.  The usual mix in NE tournaments has most of the better players with heavy blue decks like Slaver, Gifts or TPS.  Trinket mage simply doesn't get the right solution most of the time, especially relative to the mana investment.  If your hand is bottlenecked with few other pro-active plays then you are often marching it into a mana drain.  The targets it usually fetches, pithing needle, sensei's top, tormod's crypt, engineered explosives, are usually not good enough against the aforementioned decks.  I have continued to run e.e. as general utility and to avoid losing to mana crypt, but outside that I've found better uses for the other 4-5 slots (given my expected meta).

Repeal

I really wish one of the regular T8'ing spanish players would write a long article about this.  I'm totally baffled by the ubiquity and success of that card across the ocean.  I certainly see how it's flexible and blue and draws a card.  For me it's that none of this has been good enough relative to the mana investment when you don't have a good use for it.  I'd like to know what I'm missing.

Welder

This card is really powerful when it's active.  For me it's never active fast enough, or it's vulnerable to removal (creature, grave or artifact).  If you're running thirsts or transmute you certainly start to build synergies together.  For me, having one mediocre card lead me to playing other mediocre cards seems pretty dumb.  Or to frame it more politely, are you playing welder-tez, or bad slaver?

Fact or Fiction

There's nothing inherently wrong with this card.  I've played it before, I'm sure there's lists where it would be appropriate for me.  This doesn't seem to be it.  I often find when I have merchant scroll or some other tutor, there's always better lines of play than FoF.  Since running a light mana base is a goal of mine, this certainly moves the deck away from that.  Midgame when everyone's spent and you topdeck it, it's a fine card.  However, in a T1 deck where every spot is crucial and I already feel I have sufficient draw, this doesn't make it compared with a removal spell, a duress effect or something like Gifts.  Probably the best chance it has is of replacing Tezzeret #2.

Duress or Misdirection

In the more aggressive lists, misdirection is pretty good, no doubt.  Going turbo-tez, however, hasn't seemed to work as well as the control route.  Unless you're swimming in wastelands, I think duress/thoughtseize is obviously superior in supporting the control strategy and in letting you know when to push the chips in.

The best thing about this was the debate over TfK and Int+AK

I don't feel the debate has been very robust at all.  Mostly because it falls into fallacies like this:

5 mana to draw 3 cards versus 3 mana to draw 3 cards was a no-brainer

i like TFK better, in part mainly due to the space allocated to the specific build i run

Which slots have you replaced with the extra two slots?

1 Voltaic Key... and I've never looked back since then

I completely agree.  Soly & Mastriano posted this pretty early on, and I've come around to that if you're not running voltaic key, you're missing something.

Here's the list that I've been tuning, both before, and after reading:
1 Strip Mine
1 Academy Ruins

Would you mind elaborating on your experiences with these cards?  Also, is there a metagame reason why you've gone down to two colors, or is it that you don't think the extra colors add enough?

The biggest problem this deck has faced so far is Tendrils based decks

Do you ever have issues with wanting to set chalice at 1, but also having duress, etc?  I.e. is chalice good enough so that you can afford to shut off some of your own cards?

I did test Duress here, but still found that playing it when I needed to hold drain up was just bad

This hasn't been nearly as much of an issue for me.  Usually you can either play duress when you only have 1 mana, or wait for 3.

[LordHomerCat]

I put transmute artifact in the list for a couple reasons.

Does the trick with Sundering Titan still work, do come into play abilities trigger?

Robrecht.

Current Oracle Text of Transmute Artifact:

"As an additional cost to play Transmute Artifact, sacrifice an artifact.

Search your library for an artifact card. If that card's converted mana cost is less than or equal to the sacrificed artifact's converted mana cost, put it into play. If it's greater, you may pay the cost difference. If you do, put it into play. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard. Then shuffle your library."

Unless I am misreading that, you would have to pay the difference to get any effect from Titan.  If you just transmute a mox away and then don't pay, the Titan goes straight to the yard and never gets to trigger his enters/leaves play abilities.

[Eastman]

It does go to the yard though which lets you play welder tricks and the like.  That can be pretty useful sometimes. 

[vassago]

i like TFK better, in part mainly due to the space allocated to the specific build i run

Which slots have you replaced with the extra two slots?



well i did post the list so you could see what i was playing, but just to be clear, i chose TFK over Int/AK because i like the trinket mages and i also like the rack and ruin and gorilla shamans.  the way i see it, the absence of the intuition leaves room for some reactive cards. i thought it a decent idea seeing at our local t1 scene we have a few workshop players and null rod just happens to be in alot of different decks right now.  sorry if my presenttation was unclear or misleading, but i thought that it was. 

[Smmenen]

Everyone but Grand_Inquisitor seems to be running Fact or Fiction (see above)
   I am convinced that this is the right move.  I think Steve doesn't like it because of the high casting cost, but I find that the ability to dig through 5 cards at a point in the game where you are just looking for the other piece to lock things up is huge.  FoF keeps coming up big.  I make this point not so much because I'm curious about other's experiences (I tend to think they are much the same) but to try to convince GI in particular to switch it up.

 

Eastman, this is a really interesting post and it has inspired my article for next week, which will be a look at every single multi-color tezzeret deck that has made top 8 ever.   

I think it is important to recognize that in GI's list Fact or Fiction is much less powerful since Intuition + AK is so mana intensive already.  Fact makes much more sense in a deck that has just Thirsts. 

[Zieby]

Hi there,

I like this topic alot and learned alot from it,

I do have a Card that I want the opponion from you guys on.

Name: Vendilion Clique  
 
Cost:   
Card Type: Legendary Creature - Faerie Wizard 
P/T: 3/1 
Rules Text (Oracle):  Flash
Flying
When Vendilion Clique comes into play, look at target player's hand. You may choose a nonland card from it. If you do, that player reveals the chosen card, puts it on the bottom of his or her library, then draws a card. 

How about this card instead of thoughtseize for Creature control and Discard, It can take a creature away and it bloks the next creature, you donthave to spend mana in your own turn. I played a dossen of games now with 2 of them in my deck and really like this guy.

I can not wait what you guys think.

Greetz Zieby

[bluemage55]

Vendilion Clique 

The problem with Clique rather than Thoughtseize are two-fold.

The first is that your opponent gets a new card to replace the old one.  This can be problematic in a number of matchups where removing one key threat just leads to another.  For example, TPS, isn't hurt that badly if they lose Yawg Will only to draw Necropotence, or Dark Ritual only to find Cabal Ritual.  For Clique to disrupt as well as Thoughtseize, your opponent needs to draw a dead card.  For most Vintage decks, the odds of that happening aren't particularly high.

The second problem is Clique's casting cost.  Duress effects are most valuable on turn 1.  Getting to Clique requires not only 3 mana, but UU, which most likely relegates it to turn 2 at the least.  Additionally, tapping UU isn't particularly synergistic with Drain, meaning you probably won't be casting Clique after your opponent draws but before their main, which is ideal.

Don't get me wrong, Clique is a reasonably good card that could find a home in more tempo-oriented decks where the "discard" is more icing on the 3/1 evasion cake.  But Control Tez probably isn't the right place for it.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Goth Slaver didn't run any black cards

"Goth" Slaver
4 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Goblin Welder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Pentavus
2 Mindslaver
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

4 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
5 Fetchlands
4 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9061.html

Actually it did, because Intuition/AK is absolutely amazing when you have Yawgmoth's Will to replay the AKs.

Did you mean to search for: goth slave

No.  No I did not.

[Smmenen]

I counted 37 non mono blue Tezzeret decklists making top 8s all over the globe since Shards became legal (in tournaments of at least 17 players).   I compiled all of those lists in an excel spreadsheet and then built a composite list.  I was VERY surprised to see that the composite list actually seemed like the strongest Tez list I had seen yet!  In my article on Monday, you'll be able to see this list and the counts for every single card anyone played in a Tez list, including sideboards!   

[Zieby]

I see a lot of arguments over Intuition/AK over TFK but has anyone tried to run both?
Maybe TFK as a 3 of?

Years ago there was a slaver variant that ran both, I think it was "Goth" Slaver (Can't find a list)

If someone has tried this I am very interested to know the results.

Just a thought

I'm currently testing the following configuration as my draw engine:

4x AK
2x TFK
2x Intuition
1x Sensei
1x AR
1x BS
(1x LoA)

I must say that this configuration is very strong and i can refill my hand rather quick after a big Counter war. I would Like to play 1x Deep analysis, but cant find the space for it.

Vendilion Clique 

The problem with Clique rather than Thoughtseize are twofold.

The first is that your opponent gets a new card to replace the old one.  This can be problematic in a number of matchups where removing one key threat just leads to another.  For example, TPS, isn't hurt that badly if they lose Yawg Will only to draw Necropotence, or Dark Ritual only to find Cabal Ritual.  For Clique to disrupt as well as Thoughtseize, your opponent needs to draw a dead card.  For most Vintage decks, the odds of that happening aren't particularly high.

That your opponent draws a card is a draw back but in my view is that not a reason for not playing this guy,
If you can remove a game winning card the chance that your opponent draws another game winning card is about 20% (Counting 10 cards as game winning cards in a 50 card deck and I think that is already to high.) This is in my view a risk that I can live with.

The second problem is Clique's casting cost.  Duress effects are most valuable on turn 1.  Getting to Clique requires not only 3 mana, but UU, which most likely relegates it to turn 2 at the least.  Additionally, tapping UU isn't particularly synergistic with Drain, meaning you probably won't be casting Clique after your opponent draws but before their main, which is ideal.

I Never Fetch first turn to Sea just to see it wasted. Normally I play my duress effects on turn 3 and not sooner (Turn 2 you want to have drain mana open). Clique can be played in the opponents turn and that is a great advantage, as an example: If they play top deck tutor in your endstep you can remove it after they draw a card. But the Biggest advantage is that you have a extra creature to block for your Tezzeret and you can play it at instant speed to block. (You can remove a creature from opp-hand and you can block for a turn). Last advantage over a duress effect, it is a third kill condition that isn't a artifact.

Just my thoughts, hope to receive more reactions on this card,

I counted 37 non mono blue Tezzeret decklists making top 8s all over the globe since Shards became legal (in tournaments of at least 17 players).   I compiled all of those lists in an excel spreadsheet and then built a composite list.  I was VERY surprised to see that the composite list actually seemed like the strongest Tez list I had seen yet!  In my article on Monday, you'll be able to see this list and the counts for every single card anyone played in a Tez list, including sideboards!   

I'm really looking forward to this article. And I hope it resamble's my list a bit.

greetz

Zieby

[Marske]

I Never Fetch first turn to Sea just to see it wasted. Normally I play my duress effects on turn 3 and not sooner (Turn 2 you want to have drain mana open). Clique can be played in the opponents turn and that is a great advantage, as an example: If they play top deck tutor in your endstep you can remove it after they draw a card. But the Biggest advantage is that you have a extra creature to block for your Tezzeret and you can play it at instant speed to block. (You can remove a creature from opp-hand and you can block for a turn). Last advantage over a duress effect, it is a third kill condition that isn't a artifact.

This scenario is only relevant Game 1. Game 2 you probably know what you are playing against (and if it's packing waste/strip)  Duress / Thoughtseize will be better 9 out of 10 times in this situation imo. You make some very good points regarding it being a instant blocker for tezz if need be and don't forget the ability to fix your own hand or grab a card you just put on top with one of your topdeck tutors or with top without losing the top. also having a backup game plan which doesn't revolve around artifacts is good too but...I would see the Clique as a extra plan or addition to Duress / Thoughtseize instead of replacing them with it.

[bluemage55]

That your opponent draws a card is a draw back but in my view is that not a reason for not playing this guy,

If you can remove a game winning card the chance that your opponent draws another game winning card is about 20% (Counting 10 cards as game winning cards in a 50 card deck and I think that is already to high.) This is in my view a risk that I can live with.

That's absolutely a reason for not playing Clique over Thoughtseize.  By definition a drawback is a reason not to use a card.  And 20% is flawed: (1) the point of a Duress effect is not solely to remove win conditions and (2) you neglect the fact that if 20% of a deck are win conditions, the other 40% are ways to advance those win conditions.

I Never Fetch first turn to Sea just to see it wasted. Normally I play my duress effects on turn 3 and not sooner (Turn 2 you want to have drain mana open). Clique can be played in the opponents turn and that is a great advantage, as an example: If they play top deck tutor in your endstep you can remove it after they draw a card. But the Biggest advantage is that you have a extra creature to block for your Tezzeret and you can play it at instant speed to block. (You can remove a creature from opp-hand and you can block for a turn). Last advantage over a duress effect, it is a third kill condition that isn't a artifact.

That's probably just a play error on your part.  You can't assume that every opponent has Wasteland in their top 7 or 8 cards, and whether you crack your fetch for a Sea should be dependant on the circumstances, such as what opposing cards you've seen and what your own game plan is at this point.


Let me put it this way: If there was a 1U 3/1 flying creature with flash that draws your opponent a card, would that be considered good in a Tez deck?  You're essentially adding that effect on to Thougtseize.  While that card might be Vintage playable in an aggressive deck like Fish, it's a bit out of place here.

[Marske]

That's probably just a play error on your part.  You can't assume that every opponent has Wasteland in their top 7 or 8 cards, and whether you crack your fetch for a Sea should be dependant on the circumstances, such as what opposing cards you've seen and what your own game plan is at this point.

I guess this is an error of logic on your part as far as I'm concerned. Don't get me wrong like I said before I don't support the Clique as a replacement for Duress / Seize but assuming you sit down on a table without knowledge about what your opponent is playing and you start on the play with fetch - Sea can cost you games. If your opponent does run strip / waste, you just screwed yourself out of turn 2 drain mana open regardless of the turn 1 duress / seize effect this risk is just to big and something your don't want to be doing when your main goal is getting UU up.

This is bad if your a control player playing a drain deck.  Your main plan should almost always be getting drain mana up ASAP the rare occasion for this not being the case is not worth taking into account. Also if you've seen some of the opposing cards your probably A) on the draw which doesn't give you that much info unless you just got beat by storm turn 1 or B) your well into turn 2/3 and you already have drain mana up anyway so it doesn't matter if the land gets wasted.

Regardless of this all I'm with you on the fact that this isn't probably the best card for tezz.

[Zieby]

I want to post to pros and cons for both cards here:

Vendilion Clique

Pros:
1) Can make an opponent discard a game winning card or creature (it is an option)
2) Can be played at instant speed
3) Can function as blocker for Tezzeret
4) Can fix your hand
5) It is blue so it pitches to FoW
6) It is an alternate win condition that isn’t an artifact
7) It doesn’t let you fetch to an Underground Sea turn 1 (if you chose to do it)
8) It can be used to kill a Tezzeret from your opponent.

Cons:
1) It’s cost is 1UU (instead of B for a duress effect)
2) When you chose to let your opponent discard a card of your choice, he may draw a card.

Thoughtseize

Pros:
1) It cost B
2) Can make an opponent discard a game winning card or creature

Cons:
1) For first turn play an Underground sea is needed (disregarding the Mox Jet)
2) It isn’t a win condition
3) It can’t protect Tezzeret for an already resolved creature
4) It is a Sorcerie
5) Can’t manipulate your own hand
6) It isn’t Blue so it can’t pitch to FoW
7) You have to Pay 2 life
8) It can be stopped by Misdirection (Small change in this Meta but still present)

And Waste and Strip effects are commen in this meta, evrything that doesn't run drain or ritual plays them.

Just tell me if I see things verry wrong.

Greetz Arjan