Ad Nauseam Tendrills (Spooky Nauseam) Fun with storm.

[Marske]

But does Thoughtseize make your deck faster?  At a certain point in time, the deck hits its high-end of speed.  If you are playing more proactive disruption, aren't you just slowing the deck down all the same?  It's not like you're adding a FoW to the deck, Duress/Thoughtseize cost mana, cards, deck space, all of which slow the deck down.  So in a sense, we're both acknowledging the same limitations, but you choose to force the main plan whereas Necro and Twister give you alternate plans.

 

We indeed acknowledge the same limitations and I choose rather to in force the main plan. Neither Thoughtseize nor Necro/Twister makes this deck "faster" imo. I chose to improve the main plan instead of relying on Necro/Twister for backup. If you fit a backup plan into this deck it should be something without storm, adding a alternate kill or something. (please don't suggest tinker DSC )

And really, Thoughtseize on Cursecatcher?  I've never done that (maybe I'm wrong for that), but in the longview the mana you spent casting Thoughtseize could have just been spent on countering Cursecatcher.  And why wouldn't drawing more cards with Necro or Twister help you get more lands to make Cursecather irrelevant?  Or in the alternative, give it more targets to win an attrition.

Turn 1 Cursecatcher can be very annoying too our strategy, because they will likely counter your first rit or disruption. Facing turn 1 cursecatcher followed by a turn 2 null rod does make this deck slow down a bit also when playing on the draw a turn 1 cursecatcher means your necro isn't going to resolve period. Also drawing more cards with Necro or twister would indeed mean Cursecatchers is irrelevant but you can't force Necro into play so most likely the cursecatcher will be an issue.

Not running Necro doesn't mean you mulligan more, I just said running Necro could mean you keep subpar hands because of having Necro. Also I think you underestimate the information value you get from a duress/seize.

[nineisnoone]

I suppose this is why I prefer Chain to Repeal.  Chain bounces Null no problem.  For the record, you couldn't FoW Necro/Twister into play against Cursecatcher anyways (not a spell).  But I suppose your basic point remains the same.  I still don't see how it's better.  If they do turn 1 Cursecatcher, they can counter anything you do assuming you have no additional mana.  But there's no need to walk into it, you can (and your only option really is to) just wait.  And having more bombs means when you have enough mana to play around it, your play is stronger.  To me that's better than going the defensive route with Thoughtseize or the like.  Though Recall/Massacre over it are options if the board is such that either play would wreck them, but that's SB stuff.

I do agree that Necro might not be the best alternate kill. But not because it's would go the storm route, more due to the fact that it costs life to use just like ADN does. So if you failed on either of them, it's possible you wouldn't have the life to use either effectively anymore.  But that would only occur against Stifle/Trickbind.

I don't know if you can call it sub-par.  It's not the best I agree to that.  I just know that if I have an 2 mana sources, Ritual, and Necro in my opening 7 I'll keep that (maybe that's wrong?).  If that was 2 mana sources, Ritual, and Thoughtseize, I probably wouldn't.  Neglecting other cards, of course.  I'm also of the opinion that any otherwise keepable hand with Thoughtseize in it, would still be keepable if that Thoughtseize was Necropotence.  Note, Thoughtseize is just an example, I can't think of many cards that would change that opinion.

[Marske]

But there's no need to walk into it, you can (and your only option really is to) just wait.  And having more bombs means when you have enough mana to play around it, your play is stronger.

If you wait against a deck like BUG fish for example they will just clog up their hand with FoW/ Negate and play goyf putting pressure on you. The longer this match drags on the less likely you are winning it. I don't know what the best line of action should be (Necro/Twister do nothing here) but I did get my ass kick by this deck allot during testing and it's one of the things I think we need to focus on. The rest of the field shouldn't be that much of a problem besides Staxx of course.

[Marske]

After testing a great deal against various decks I think that we can conclude some things namely:

*Fish decks are a pain
Fish decks are almost designed to pull combo apart so no big suprise here. although much of the "hate" that works against normal fish decks still works I've found a trouble in BUG Fish because Goyf's don't die to Massacre and can put tremendous amount of pressure on us. For this the only solution I've found is to add a second chain of vapor maindeck (cutting 1 Repeal) and  adding a EE to the sideboard instead of a Massacre for example.  This remains a very difficult match-up.

I'm still not really sure about Necro and / or Twister I put it back into the deck and haven't needed them (except for imprinting on Chrome moxen) but I've missed the Thoughtseize. Is anybody else toying around with this list or some other list who has come to a conclusion about this ?

[Liam-K]

Is massacre the best sideboard card right now?  BUG doesn't have plains and the etherium guys deck is also (more?) vulnerable to Hurkyl's.  Tried Slaughter Pact at all?  It isn't dependant on your opponent fetching out a tundra and kills any size of dude.  And you can definitely afford to pay 2B if you need to use it before you're ready to win.

[Marske]

@Liam-K
I don't think Massacre is the best (like I said I even cut it) I think EE works out better for me (no damage if you flip it etc) Slaughter pact on the other hand seems to be a valid option (didn't think of that) but EE seems like a better card at sweeping the board of pesky critters and artifacts that need removing.

[nineisnoone]

The main problem with EE imo is that it doesn't work when Null Rod is in play, which is a frequent condition.  I've always loved EE though, but I'm not sure how reliable it would be against a deck running 4x Nulls.

Slaughter Pact is an interesting idea. 

[Marske]

The problem is that Slaughter pact doesn't deal with null rod's either.. (it does deal with things like Canonists and Cursecatchers which can be a big plus) EE is more of a global board sweeper but I'm not entirely sure about this one either (for the reasons Nineisnoone posted above)

I think these are the only problems (besides needing too learn how to pilot this deck) that we as ADN players are facing.

[The_spooky_kid]

I have honestly thrown together countless builds of this deck, and have been playing against a lot of solid players online and in person.  The bulk of the deck is pretty much set in stone.  I would say as a player consensus, with the exception of pact of negation vs thoughtsieze, people have mustered the same decks within give or take 5 or so cards.  And I think for the evolution of a new combo deck there has been a lot of good healthy discussion going on.  I'm further going to analyse my build and go through all of the reasonings behind the card choices throughout my deck.  Here again is my list for reference.

ICBM Ad Nauseam Combo

4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Ad Nauseam
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's will
1 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Pact of Negation
4 Duress
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Repeal
3 Tendrils of agony
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Timetwister


SB:
1 tropical island
4 xantid swarm
3 oxidize
1 engineered explosives
1 massacre
1 yixlid jailer
2 tormod's crypt
1 tinker
1 platinum angel

First off I can honestly say that every single card in this deck went in with a lot of thought.  This deck i would say 80% of the time has a very linear and easy strategy. resolve ad nauseam as soon as you can and win the game.  Its plain and simple.  I think that 80% of the games I have won with the deck  did just that.  I think in tournaments I resolved an ad nauseam 1 time in response to a spell on my opponents turn, but this is most definitely a main phase card.  The other 20% of the time you need to win by other means.  I think the other 20% of the time is extremely important, and every card slot you have maindeck will matter when it comes to winning without ad nauseam.  Time walk is a card that i feel is weak in this deck.  For one the deck tries to win on the turn it casts ad nauseam.  85%+ of the time if you are at 14life points or higher when casting this card you will win the game.  Time walk honestly doesn't fit into this deck.  If it is in your openning hand even it is a pretty weak card considering you have 2-3 moxen that don't require an imprint and mana crypt.  Almost all the opening hands I have had time walk was always the weak card.  Any other mana source, protection etc would have been better and that is why I don't play the card. 

Sensei's diving top was another card I saw in a version of the deck that has recently popped up on a similar forums.  This is another card I would strongly stay away from in this deck.  I will give a few examples.  Lets say that you have an opening hand that features 2 land, a ritual, a duress effect, top, ad nauseam, and chrome mox.  For starters sensei's diving top cannot be imprinted on chrome mox.  secondly lets say you decide to play the top on turn 1. on turn 2 you have to dump 1 mana into activating it to fix your draw, and then you still have to hope to hit 5 or even more mana to ad nauseam.  Moral of the story sensei's top is too mana intensive and slow for this deck. Ponder is 100x better. I still don't run ponder in the maindeck, but it has been close to being added.

Merchant scroll is such a versitile card in the build that i am playing. turn 1 or turn 2 scroll is never a bad thing. Like i said before, I most always get protection with this, but it finds recall and answers when you need them most.  It is also great to draw in games where you are losing.  Lets say that you are in a late game state with a few lands, and artifact mana in play.  scrolling for mystical tutor, and finding timetwister with mystical tutor can get you right back into the game. or even for yawgmoth's will.  Merchant scroll can get you out of a lot of situations, and I think is extremely good at what it does.   I am still running 1 chain of vapor, 1 repeal, and 1 hurkyl's recall in my main for a few reasons.  For one, my deck has a higher amount of tutors in the deck which can find you answers to a lot of given situations.  Lets say your oponent on the play casts out for example turn 1 chalice of the void at 0, or even a turn one null rod.  Given the situation I can turn 1 use any of my tutors say imperial seal, mystical, vamp, demonic off a ritual to find the best answer.  repeal for the chalice at 0 chain of vapor for the null rod, or even hurkyl's recall for multiple artifacts.  The same is true for being on the offensive.  repeal is good at bouncing your own chrome moxen, and fixing your mana that way. its also combos well with the topdeck tutors, and is an all around great storm enabler, and while it costs more to bounce higher casting cost things, this deck is good at making mana, so even bouncing a 2 drop for 3 mana isn't always terribly difficult.   chain of vapor more often than not is one of the decks greatest problem solvers when it comes to perminants, but resolved chalice at 1s do happen.  multiple threats happen, and Thats why I don't think i could run only multiple copies of chain of vapor opposed to the other bounce effects. 

Timetwister in my opinion is an auto include in any storm deck in vintage.  When having 4 chrome moxen in your deck, this card is easily played on turn 1 or 2.  Its great at almost any state in the game except post resolved ad nauseam, and even after then it can help dig you into things.  The card can get you out of a lot of random ruts, and the fact that it shuffles your graveyard into your library can matter at times.  Point being this card alone for the cost of 3 mana draws you seven cards is too good not to have.  It is the 5th ad nauseam in the deck at a cheaper cost.  necropotence is another card that is in a similar catagory to timetwister.  Necropotence can easily be played on any turn, and it offers for an alternate strategy to the normal linear one the deck has to offer.  Basically when it comes down to it, it is nice to have options when playing any deck.   When you play necropotence your game plan shifts a little bit.  You can use it to simply fill your hand with cards the turn you play it taking like 6-7 life and still use ad nauseam to generate your storm, or you can go a more TPS style route chaining bounce effects, or using your graveyard via yawgmoth's will for your win.  Again, while it is slower this card is like the decks 6th ad nauseam.  if it resolves you are most likely going to win.  And while it is true that you cannot use pact to protect necro, I think the card does way too much for the deck not to have it.

Now for the sideboard.  I can honestly say that my sideboard is completely wrong for you.  Thats because it is.  It was built for a chicago/ WI metagame.  Every area has its own meta, and I think the best way to construct a sideboard for any deck is to look at the general trends of your area, and ask yourself what decks are doing good?  Which ones not so good.  How will the next tourney be different from this one. Everyone who follows vintage magic watches and reads tournament results or at least they should.  Another important thing you should ask yourself is given the information given how do i think the environment will change due to these circumstances and what should I prepare myself for?  Its the survival of the fittest.  Given that I think the 5 cards that should be in every ad nauseam decks sideboard are the extra green source land, and 4x xantid swarms.  There are counterspells and disruption of all sorts in the form of instant speed.  This little guy is the best thing the decks sideboard can offer.  With the exception of that the rest is in the air.  I played 3x oxidize and a massacre in my sideboard previously because of ethersworn canonists and meddling mages.  A general trend at a lot of the icbm opens is that a few players play there pet decks, being UW fish or bombermand varients, and they always show up.  massacre kills canonists, meddling mages, aven mindscensors, etc that these decks bring.  Also jameson bryant a good friend of mine, has being playing a G/W/R zoo varient that has been gaining popularity. as a matter of fact the zoo varient just won another mox pearl at pastimes just last weekend.  A tournament I ended up missing.  In my area massacre almost got bumped up to a 2 of.  oxidize is another cheap way to deal with canonist.  It also is great verse stax, and random other pesky artifacts like null rod, chalice at zero, artifact creatures in general.   Ichorid is literally nearly non existant in my area, where it is very popular in others.  Thats why I pack light on the ichorid hate.  Also its not very difficult to race ichorid.   I run tinker platinum angel in my board for a few reasons.  One its fairly good against zoo type decks with very limited ways to deal with it.  most of the time decks will side out there bounce effects/ creature removal, because 90% of the time it will be useless.  And secondly it combos great with pact of negation.  engineered explosives is fairly good at dealing with sphere of resistance, and just perminants in general.. Its a very versitile card.   

Tinker platz is really good against bug fish. most of them only run 1 bounce spell in there deck and limited ways of finding it. The evasion platinum angel has is great against them too.  I think with my sideboard my plan would be -1 underground sea, -4 duress,-necropotence, - tendrils of agony,, -1 cabal ritual ( if they dont run challice) + tropical island, +4 xantid swarm, +1 tinker +1 platz.  +1 EE  xantid swarm turns off there counters and stifle effects. It cannot be countered by curse catcher.  tinker platinum angel offers a new secondary plan if you get low on life.  It also allows you to late game draw and play your entire deck with ad nauseam.

[Marske]

Oxidize deals with null rod and canonist from the board.

This is  true. I do however see the need for something that sweeps the board if need be (hence the EE)

[The_spooky_kid]

Oxidize deals with null rod and canonist from the board.

This is  true. I do however see the need for something that sweeps the board if need be (hence the EE)

I run that too see above post.

[nineisnoone]

Ponder is 100x better. I still don't run ponder in the maindeck, but it has been close to being added.

Where would the cut go?  I could see it in for Merchant Scroll, but you'd probably need to change your bounce suite to be less of a toolbox.

Also am I right in that the decision to go with Oxidize over Hurky'll on the sideboard is a meta decision where you have fewer Stax decks, where Huryll's would be stronger, and more Fish/Zoo/TMWA decks, where their multiple attack angles means you need permanent removal? 

Starting to agree on the 3 Tendrils, especially with Twister shuffling things back in.

You mention R/G/W.  Just to note for discussion that Teeg shuts down Engineered Explosives and Repeal so that should be considered when looking for answers.

[Liam-K]

I am not so sure about repeal anymore.  Most of the time when I use bounce to storm I want to bounce more than 1 mox, and the chances the card I rip off the top is castable for storm don't make up for the guaranteed free storm and mana I get for sacrificing a land, particularly when I'm going to do that twice or sacrificie another land to bounce something of my opponent's.  I'm up to 3 chain + hurkyl now and have found the extra bounce invaluable on both the offense and the defense.  I used repeal to draw from a topdeck tutor once ever and I think I've noticed one, maybe two more instances where it would have been important, compared to the every other time when I'm happy it's chain.

I posted this somewhere else but I solidly support necro 100% now.  I think there was a bit of an adjustment curve there where I had to unlearn my pitchlong pattern recognition and stop acting like I had force of wills.  A key thing is to actually draw a few less cards so you have life left to draw more if something goes wrong on your opponent's turn.  Having 3 tendrils in the deck makes a noticeable difference when necro'ing too and I find your smaller draws are much more reliable than you would expect with a grim tutor deck.

I've been testing without time walk and haven't missed it so far.  Since I seem to be the card's last proponent I guess we can officially call it out.

[Mr. Type 4]

how many threads are there about his deck?  There's like 30 or so? 

Primary points of focus: How many Tendrils? Thoughtseize OR Pact of Negation?  Off colored Moxen? Time Walk? Timetwister?

Jeremy - Have you ever boarded in the Platz and then had a stacked hand that Ad Naused on the first or second turn- and Ad Naused into it?  seems like that would be awkward.

Personally I hate the Pacts, but I dunno if thoughtseize is that much better.  Time Walk is less than stellar butTimetwister is the nuts. 

I think you def want Ponder, too.  really helps with awkward post-Ad Naus top deck tutor situations, and more importantly is generally good.

[Tabasco]

Th R/G/W deck doesn't run Gaddock Teeg, because he is way worse than Cannonist.  He cost 2 colored mana, and doesn't stop your opponents as well as Cannonist does

[chief]

Actually, the RGW deck does play gaddock teeg, if you check the list in that thread.  It plays 4 canonist/2 teeg.  Teeg is great all over the place- no FOW, no tez, no EE,  no stax, no ad nauseam/tendrils, doesn't care about artifact bounce...the only problem is that the man is legendary.

[The_spooky_kid]

how many threads are there about his deck?  There's like 30 or so? 

Primary points of focus: How many Tendrils? Thoughtseize OR Pact of Negation?  Off colored Moxen? Time Walk? Timetwister?

Jeremy - Have you ever boarded in the Platz and then had a stacked hand that Ad Naused on the first or second turn- and Ad Naused into it?  seems like that would be awkward.

Personally I hate the Pacts, but I dunno if thoughtseize is that much better.  Time Walk is less than stellar butTimetwister is the nuts. 

I think you def want Ponder, too.  really helps with awkward post-Ad Naus top deck tutor situations, and more importantly is generally good.

It has happened, but when i board it in i usually cut necropotence and a copy of tendrils so the deck is still relatively the same casting cost.  It does suck to hit off ad nauseam, but it really helps aggainst crappy fish decks and such. I would definitely consider ponder, but I don't think theres enough room for it in my build.

[Marske]

The_Spooky_Kid:

Time walk honestly doesn't fit into this deck.  If it is in your opening hand even it is a pretty weak card considering you have 2-3 moxen that don't require an imprint and mana crypt.  Almost all the opening hands I have had time walk was always the weak card.  Any other mana source, protection etc would have been better and that is why I don't play the card.

This is exactly the same conclusion I came too during the tournament (my first list had Time Walk)  Also I share your opinion about Sensei's Divining Top, although this card is great in other decks it's not great in this deck.

Merchant Scroll is any card you need it to be. During my testing and playing I've always been happy to see it and I don't see myself cutting this from my list in the near future. My current list includes the same bounce suite as the original deck and I totally agree with what  Jeremy said in his previous post.

I've also put Twister back into the deck (cutting the second Repeal) because I do feel this deck needs something to set you backup or get you out of a jam Twister does this perfectly.

My Current Sideboard:
It's good to see I wasn't totally off with my sideboard because I run about the same board with some exceptions that I'll explain below:

Tinker, Platinum Angel
Like it was posted before this is great as a secondary win (evasion beater) and helps out a lot when you need to win with a low life total and has synergy with the pacts.

Trygon Predator, Oxidize, Hurkyl's Recall
The Trygon Predator is great in dealing with pesky enchantments (Arcane Laboratory, Etc) and obv staxx. It gives you an evasion beater and alternate win condition if need be, also with the cmc being 4 you can still go ad nauseam combo because you can minimize the average cmc by cutting for example a tendrills and will against stax and it's very nice when you imprint it on a Chrome Mox. Oxidize and the second Hurkyl's are just good against stax and for getting rid of Canonists.

Echoing Truth, Engineered Explosives
I first had a second Chain of Vapor in this spot but the Echoing truth proved to be a bit more flexible in the meta I play in. Engineered Explosives is just the boardsweeper you sometimes need against creature decks or even sphere's.

Tropical Island, Xantid Swarm
The extra green source and Xantid Swarms have been talked about enough these are imo autoincludes.

I posted this somewhere else but I solidly support necro 100% now.  I think there was a bit of an adjustment curve there where I had to unlearn my pitchlong pattern recognition and stop acting like I had force of wills.  A key thing is to actually draw a few less cards so you have life left to draw more if something goes wrong on your opponent's turn.  Having 3 tendrils in the deck makes a noticeable difference when necro'ing too and I find your smaller draws are much more reliable than you would expect with a grim tutor deck.

I too have found this out but this is still not enough for me to warrent it's inclusion (I know I'm maybe just stubborn with this)

[Vegeta2711]

After testing a great deal against various decks I think that we can conclude some things namely:

*Fish decks are a pain
Fish decks are almost designed to pull combo apart so no big suprise here. although much of the "hate" that works against normal fish decks still works I've found a trouble in BUG Fish because Goyf's don't die to Massacre and can put tremendous amount of pressure on us. For this the only solution I've found is to add a second chain of vapor maindeck (cutting 1 Repeal) and  adding a EE to the sideboard instead of a Massacre for example.  This remains a very difficult match-up.

I'm still not really sure about Necro and / or Twister I put it back into the deck and haven't needed them (except for imprinting on Chrome moxen) but I've missed the Thoughtseize. Is anybody else toying around with this list or some other list who has come to a conclusion about this ?

Speaking purely for myself, since I play a UWB build. The only way I found Ad Naus to have an outside shot against me was to run a plan out like 'EOT COV / S. Pact, watch it get countered, untap, play 2nd S. Pact or Massacre and go off'. Basically the majority of Fish disruption is really a pain in the ass and the fact that they have multiple ways of countering spells or disrupting mana, let alone MM or Canonist's effects. I really believe in Slaughter Pact mostly because it costs 0 if you can actually pull it off and the instant is still valuable even if you can't go off ASAP after it resolves.

[Nehptis]

This new build has greatly improved the deck.  My original feelings on Ad Combo were good but not great.  This deck is quickly moving into the sky is falling arena.  There are so many Turn 1 and Turn 2 wins offf normal hands and even mulls to 5.  Anti-combo decks like Fish are going to give Ad challenges.  But, in general Ad could become a problem for the format.

Nice work!

[Marske]

I just wanted to give you guys an update on the original list and my current sideboard. I've been playtesting this deck a lot and I've got a tournament coming up where I'm going to run it again. So without further BS here is the list I'm currently playing:

ANT: Ad Nauseam Tendrils

The Insane
4 Ad Nauseam
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

The Mana
4 polluted delta
1 bloodstained mire
3 underground sea
1 bayou
1 swamp
1 island
1 tolarian academy

The Artifact mana
1 mox jet
1 mox emerald
1 mox sapphire
1 black lotus
4 chrome mox
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
1 mana vault
1 lotus petal

The Rituals and Draw
4 dark ritual
3 cabal ritual
1 brainstorm
1 ancestral recall
1 ponder
1 Necropotence
1 timetwister

The Disruption
4 pact of negation
4 duress
1 repeal
1 chain of vapor
1 hurkyl's recall

The tutors
1 merchant scroll
1 demonic tutor
1 demonic consultation
1 vampiric tutor
1 mystical tutor

The Kill
3 tendrils of agony

// Sideboard
1 Tinker
1 Platinum Angel
3 Oxidize
2 Trygon Predator
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tropical Island
4 Xantid Swarm

As you guys can see I gave Twister and Necro another try, as I said in my mini primer I cut those because I thought they weren't needed at the time and things could easily come back in.

The reason for cutting the 2 thougthseize for Necro and Twister was not that thoughtseize wasn't great but mostly because of the post that Liam-K made a few posts back namely:

I posted this somewhere else but I solidly support necro 100% now.  I think there was a bit of an adjustment curve there where I had to unlearn my pitchlong pattern recognition and stop acting like I had force of wills.  A key thing is to actually draw a few less cards so you have life left to draw more if something goes wrong on your opponent's turn.  Having 3 tendrils in the deck makes a noticeable difference when necro'ing too and I find your smaller draws are much more reliable than you would expect with a grim tutor deck.

Until this post I was playing necro like you would in TPS grabbing 9/10 cards and then getting stuck because this deck isn't TPS. This post and testing this out for myself opened my eyes about Necro in this deck. So now I'm totally cool with the idea of supporting Necro, but you do have to deal with the pattern recognition problem like Liam-K said and grabbing fewer cards.

This brings me on another card that is in my list... Ponder... I've had some problems with cards getting stuck on top that I didn't want or just wanting another "brain storm". As The_Spo0ky_Kid and others (including myself) have already established Sensei's Divining Top doesn't fit this deck so that was out. Things like Impulse, Strategic Planning, Imperial Seal came to mind but those aren't a solution for this problem either. So Ponder seemed like the best option and It has been testing pretty well.

The Sideboard
As you can See with my sideboard I decided to ignore Ichorid totally, I don't know if this is a mistake or not but during my testing I've always been able to be faster then they are so why waste sideboard slots ? My main focus lies against Staxx and BUG Fish decks although BUG fish is a problem that still needs to be solved imo. The Trygon Predators are a house against staxx and do well against other decks too. The Seal of Primordium is something I wanted to play in the side because I've had some problem with Oath and Slaver / painter / tezz decks running things like Arcane Lab that slows this deck down a lot so I wanted a cheap way to deal with artifacts / enchantments besides the Predator.

Well that's all for me again !

[nineisnoone]

How about Pithing Needle?
Cheap.  Works under Null Rod.  Proactive so you can just fire and forget.  Good on Waste, Catcher, Tezz, Grindstone, Welder.

[Marske]

How about Pithing Needle?
Cheap.  Works under Null Rod.  Proactive so you can just fire and forget.  Good on Waste, Catcher, Tezz, Grindstone, Welder.

Pithing needle is a great card and does work well against Curse Catcher and Bazaar but other then that....Tezz, Grindstone and Welder aren't a real threat for this deck and you want to be winning before those hit the table (and usually are) Besides I wouldn't know what to cut from my sideboard to bring the needle in without weakening my other sideboard plans.

This deck needs answers to Curse Catcher, Sphere's / Chalice and Null Rod. The needle doesn't help in this aspect imo.

[Jay]

I think the seals are a weak spot in your SB.  I think it's rare to need to see enchantment removal with this deck, and you have plenty of artifact removal already.  I was considering playing Trygon Predator myself, but I don't know if it's right for this deck.  You have to drop it for 1UG and then wait another turn before it starts working, which isn't good for the pace of this deck.  I've considered running slaughter pact to get rid of low cc guys like cursecatcher.  I'm also wondering why people are still running repeal after seeing the success of running 3+ chain of vapors.  It's really good at fixing mana and building up storm counts.

I wouldn't take out Trygon predator just yet, but if it were me, I'd make these changes:

Main:
-1 merchant scroll, +1 imperial seal
-1 repeal, -1 timetwister, +2 chain of vapor
SB:
-2 Seal of Primordium, +2 slaughter pact (or massacre if you run into more UW fish than UBG)

[nineisnoone]

Oops, misread your post.  Didn't read the Arcane Lab as being the problematic part of the Tez/Painter/Slaver match-up (which Needle obviously does nothing against).  I thought just those decks in general.

If your problem is Arcane Lab, I think the better solution is to just switch Pact for Thoughtseize.  (Or just put some Thoughtseize in the SB).

I don't really see Seal/Predator as being an ideal solution, but I suppose if you want Artifact/Enchantment destruction they are the better choices. 

[Marske]

@Jay,
First off all great work with your own ANT build ! I'm trying to follow both topics as they unfold !

Back on-topic:

Main:
-1 merchant scroll, +1 imperial seal
-1 repeal, -1 timetwister, +2 chain of vapor
SB:
-2 Seal of Primordium, +2 slaughter pact (or massacre if you run into more UW fish than UBG)

No way am I cutting Merchant Scroll in this deck in favor of a Imp. Seal although Seal does can search for more cards it gives you more damage overall (3 maximum) True Scroll grabs only draw, bounce and disruption and no combo pieces but it's still been great. If anything gets cut for a seal it would be Ponder. I've not found myself in a situation where Repeal was dead in this deck, sure it costs a bit more too play but the draw a card clause can do a great deal.

Timetwister has made it's way back into my decklist after being cut in the first place because I actually felt the need for a draw7 after Necro found it's way back in. This could be a Chain of Vapor and I'll sure test this.

The Trygon predator is slow that's true but against multiple Sphere / Thorn effects you aren't going to combo any time fast and it's great in turning those otherwise lost games into a manageable situation until you find your Hurkyl's.

I've been thinking allot about the 2 "open" sideboard slots and Seal answers a problem we tend to have in the European meta (especially in the Netherlands) namely things like Arcane Lab and even Counterbalance (which wrecks this deck in so many ways I can't even describe) so these slots could be anything actually. The only thing "set in stone" regarding the sideboard are the Swarms and Tinker - Angel imo the rest is something that can be created depending on your meta. I gave my sideboard because nobody else talks about sideboarding with ANT and I wanted to see what people are running.

[Liam-K]

For the most part enchantments can be solved with bounce, which you should already have bucketloads of.  I can't imagine what I'd side out against a Drain deck for enchantment removal..

[Jay]

Well I was suggesting cutting merchant scroll because when I test with this deck and draw it, I often wish it was something else.  It usually turns up just hitting me in the head for 2 while Ad Naus resolves.  But if it's working for you, then you should definitely play it.  But that's no reason not to run Imperial Seal.  I guess maybe try dropping ponder, even though that card also has the ability to put what you want in your hand.  During testing I often find that I want more mana or more search, usually more of the latter.  You want to avoid hands that you'll mulligan because you're light on bombs, and cards like imperial seal help prevent that.

I keep putting timetwister in and out of my deck, but I think it's going to stay out now.  By itself, it's horrible.  Meaning you don't want to draw 7 and pass the turn so they can murder you with their new hand.  It's only good when you can float mana and try to go off with the storm counters you already have for the turn -- sometimes you can resolve a fatal tendrils without the Ad Naus on the turn you timetwister.  But I find that sometimes you don't do that, and the times that you're not lucky enough to combo off are almost always detrimental.  I know the long decks run it, but they appear to be better equipped for draw 7's.

And I'd still like to say I like the Tryg Pred.  My biggest problem isn't just waiting til next turn for it to attack, 'cuz you do that with Xantid Swarm.  The difference is the swarms cost G and the TP costs 1UG.  In this deck, you've got to be cutting yourself short when you spend that kind of mana on something.

As for how much artifact removal to run, I don't think 5 slots in your SB is necessarily excessive.  I run 3 chains in the main and 3 recalls in the board.

I was thinking cards like arcane laboratory aren't a problem since I can bounce them, but you have to get rid of their counters first because you'll play bounce, then they'll counter, then you're done.  But seal still seems inferior.  If you're willing to keep a U untapped, Annul might work.  But that also seems like a bad card to me, mostly because I don't see anyone playing either in vintage.

And thanks for the compliments   I'm actually pretty new to vintage and I'm just doing what everyone else is doing... using the threads for ideas and tweaking my own version based on how play testing goes.  I think it's funny how your deck and mine are starting to look more alike, and more like the other decks like meandeck and ICBM.  I didn't want to copy someone else's build, but that's what happens as decks get better, everyone seems to decide on what works best.  If anyone wants to see how far our builds have come, check out the 'potential nut kicking card' thread...

[The_spooky_kid]

How can you say that timetwister is horrible?  If i could play 4 of these over ad nauseam i would.  Hands down is one of the best cards this deck has in it.  2U draw 7 cards with no drawbacks.  In a perfect world you would simply ad nauseam every game and instantly win, but the deck isn't perfect like that.  Every deck out there has ways of throwing in speed bumps, and your not going to just win.  What happens when a tarmogoyf gets you down to 5 or 6 life what will ad nauseam do for you there?  Or what will you do against an apposing tendrils deck when they mini tendrils you to a  low life total?   Every card in the list that I posted was in the deck for a reason.  The build that I posted already has 3 bounce spells in the main, and an extra tutor (merchant scroll) to find them when u need to.  If you cut bombs in the deck for more bounce it will lose you games.  You slim down your options, and doing that will make it harder to recover from being in the hole.   

As for the sideboard, if you worried about arcane labs run more chain of vapors in your sideboard.  Chain of vapor is 100x better than seal of primordium.  Pretty much you only need to remove arcane lab for 1 turn and then win.  Chain of vapor answers to more things than seal of primordium.  Examples being meddling mage, tarmogoyf, or tezzeret, the seeker.  I personally wouldn't stray from running a few ichorid cards in my sideboard.  Ichorid still surprisingly shows up to tournements.   

[Marske]

I was thinking cards like arcane laboratory aren't a problem since I can bounce them, but you have to get rid of their counters first because you'll play bounce, then they'll counter, then you're done.  But seal still seems inferior.  If you're willing to keep a U untapped, Annul might work.  But that also seems like a bad card to me, mostly because I don't see anyone playing either in vintage.

You make an excellent point here (that's the reason why I run the Seal) because they can't fight a counter war over it when it's already in play.

As for the sideboard, if you worried about arcane labs run more chain of vapors in your sideboard.  Chain of vapor is 100x better than seal of primordium.

Jeremy, try facing Slaver with 3 negate 4 drain 4 fow and Arcane lab and then say that chain of vapor is better they can protect that thing rather well. I Actually lost this way last tournament because my opponent played a turn 1 gorilla shaman turn 2 Arcane lab and beat me to death with that monkey. I'm not saying Seal would have gotten me out of that situation but at least when the seal is in play they can't  stop the destruction of the Lab.

Look everybody like I said before my sideboard is focused on the European Meta which differs greatly from the US. This being said I wouldn't copy my sideboard if you play in the US (except for the set in stone stuff obv)

@Jay,
I had the same logic about Twister when I wrote the mini primer but I've come to realize that there is another way of looking and playing with Twister you should really have more faith with that card

I was thinking cards like arcane laboratory aren't a problem since I can bounce them,

Like I said you can play a bounce they counter and you pass the turn, they grab a counter pass the turn and you tutor for next bounce spell rinse and repeat... this really is a uphill battle but it is possible that you never face this because of the different meta, even with 4 chain of vapor a good control player will out counter you when he has an arcane lab in play facing storm.

And thanks for the compliments Wink  I'm actually pretty new to vintage and I'm just doing what everyone else is doing... using the threads for ideas and tweaking my own version based on how play testing goes.  I think it's funny how your deck and mine are starting to look more alike, and more like the other decks like meandeck and ICBM.  I didn't want to copy someone Else's build, but that's what happens as decks get better, everyone seems to decide on what works best.  If anyone wants to see how far our builds have come, check out the 'potential nut kicking card' thread...

I took a different route (started creating the deck when the card was spoiled) but came to the conclusion that Jeremy's list was already better so I started playing that and the rest can be seen in this thread for somebody who is pretty new to Vintage you have some good idea's