Aggro & Control, the real meaning: Mr. Gaddock

[Guli]

I rather use flashback/madness and the ones i use now,welder/clamp, to turn Gamble's 'side-effect' into my advantage. I never had a real draw engine even when the color blue was being used. It was always clamp/ancestral recall. You can't have it all. You need to cast bombs with the mana you have. And when you do find time and mana, you go find the missing combo part or start clamping. Remember once I get a canonist in the board or grave all the card advantage don't matter anymore. Maybe you are suggesting something like

Heartwood Storyteller
Cold-Eyed Selkie
Ohran Viper

If you don't find 4x skullclamp (i can squeeze in a 4th, that is no problem) enough, then what would you suggest? LftL would be nice for Tarm and Welder too. I could see it work. What are you thinking? Bazaar? Crop rotaton/strip/bazaar/loam?

Gamble is indeed situational. But isn't that the point? I create the situation with welder and key to combo. If I lose my welder or don't get one, gamble becomes a tarm pumper and if that doesn't work either, i ll really gamble and go for something i really need and hope for the best. I don't think LftL is a good way to make gamble better. LftL could do other things in the deck like I mentioned but not with gamble. You tap 2 mana sources to cast loam, then another red for gamble, that is very mana intensive.

I think clamps are enough as a draw engine after playing so many different versions and colors of this theme.

Do you have specific alternate draw options in your mind?
Any other card(s) that might be interesting in the deck?

Guli

[nineisnoone]

Off the top of my head I would
-4 Gamble + 4 Bazaar
-2 Key + 1 Life from the Loam + 1 Enlightened Tutor
-2 Crome + 1 Skullclamp + 1 Strip

As for the sideboard....
how is Wheel of Sun and Moon good against Oath?  I would just run Tormod's Crypt.
I don't think Stingscourger is better than Swords... you still have to pay the echo cost if you Vial it.
Heretic seems excessive with Welder/Shaman in the main.  I would at least 1 Rack & Ruin over it to deal with Tangle Wire.

[Guli]

This deck can't handle the 4 bazaar, you don't have time for stuff like that. And 1 loam is not going to help feed the bazaar engine. What is the problem with Gamble anyway? I didn't hear a solid argument yet. The play testing was very nice. I am getting that vault and infinite a lot of times. The cool part is it is on top of the pressure I am putting on my opponent. They have to deal with tarms/teegs/clamps while I sneak in the vault. I don't really see a situation were gamble can make my situation worse. If I don't have creatures and no cards in hand this means I failed anyway. I am not looking for a miracle out here. I assume I have some creatures going and a couple cards in hand when I play gamble. Best case you have key/welder and a mox and voila gamble wins on the spot. How broken is that? I played oath and they got hellkite beating down on me. I find my combo and win. I won turn 1-2 a couple of times.

Suppose you have this hand:

 Susher  / Gamble / welder /  key  / fetchland / taiga / ruby

What would you do? Does gamble really suck here?

There are lots of possibilities with Gamble in this kind of a deck. I don't get the criticism. In many games I HOPED that I discard that vault so i could weld it in and win. (otherwise i have to wait a turn) I am not tutoring for mindslaver, I am tutoring for a Vault and I will win right there. Think about it. And you don't have to go for the combo win at all. I changed my sideboard a bit. I added Ray of Revelation to fight oath. With gamble that is so broken against oath game 2. Also against those control magic sideboard cards the ray becomes crucial (you don't want them to have your tarms).

Again, i don't understand the anti-gamble comments. I realize his drawback. I am not going to change to many of the deck just to suite gamble in more. Welders, Tarms, Ancient Grudge and Clamps are enough synergy if you ask me. I was thinking of lava dart, Fiery Temper, LftL but they seemed irrelevant. I did add 1 Grudge to help out against really annoying artifacts, just in case.

Bazaar, I wonder how that would work out. Gamble goes straight to vault, bazaar is top 2 cards. I think I prefer Gamble because i is ONE specific card I am looking for and I don't mind that it goes to grave.

I was thinking the other day, Hermit druid and mill your own. With Welder that does give you time vault for sure. But the problem is what to do with infinite turns without a deck?

I ll be back laterz

cya

[nineisnoone]

For every hand that Gamble can work in, there are tons of hands where it sucks (or at least isn't great).

For example...
Gamble, Gamble, Skullclamp, Teeg, Land, Land, Mox

There is no real point in playing phantom hands, as there are hands where it's great (anything with Welder) and where it's not (no Welder, no combo piece). 

Is Bazaar the answer?  Probably not.  But I've found it to be a much better direction than Gamble.  Maybe add some Squees or switch to black for Dark Confidant, but don't know off the top of head what to cut.  Bazaar is another card that you wouldn't just throw into a deck, so if you go that route it depends on where you'd want to take it.

I mean if it's working for you, then leave it in.  But I've had my Gamble infatuation before, and like most people in the end I realized that it's just not worth it. 

[Guli]

I strongly disagree on your thoughts about gamble. You are focusing too much on the side-effect of the card and missing the true power of it. I am enjoying this deck a lot it seems to function very nice with lots of synergy and interesting plays with gamble. (complex)

SB changed:

3x Pithing needle (bazaar, slaver, tez,grimlava,shaman, ...)
3x Tormod's crypt (ichorid, Y will, dragon, ...)
3x Ray of revelation (oath, leyline, disloyalty, dragon, +gamble)
3x Ancient Grudge (artifact hate, +gamble)
3x Swords to Plowshares (Oath, tinker, aggro,)

I think i have a balanced ratio now with creatures/clamp/vials. I might up the count of creatures just a little bit to make it more optimal. Maybe eternal witness to have regrowth effects? Would make gamble more appealing wouldn't it.

I still am expecting a good insightful  explaination about gamble.

[Diakonov]

Having 3x Key and then 4x Tarmogoyf seems a bit "identity crisis" to me... it seems like you'd be better off sticking with one direction, possibly with a minor backup plan.  In general, if Tarmogoyf is worth including, I would make sure that the beat-down route is the main goal of the deck.  The Gamble combo is fascinating, but wouldn't you rather just draw more disruption to assure a beat-down victory?

It seems like Gamble could almost end up being its own deck, one that could truly utilize the speed of one to win immediately.  Perhaps a Charbelcher-type skeleton modified to win with Vault/key.

I think for this deck it would be a more appropriate strategy to rely on the power of your critters as a win condition, and beef up the disruption pieces & aggro elements.

[Guli]

Single card discussion: Dispeller's Capsule



It is weldable, activation cost is a bit high but it is still interesting. Discuss.

[CHOZO]

Wouldn't Viashino Heretic be better? Sure, it costs more to play, but you don't need goblin welder to reuse it.

[Guli]

Wouldn't Viashino Heretic be better? Sure, it costs more to play, but you don't need goblin welder to reuse it.

Yea but this can take out enchantments as well and is uncounterable and reusable.

[LordHomerCat]

How often would you want to be able to recur something to disenchant for 2W each time?  Why not just play Seal of Cleansing if you're so scared of Oath and be done with it?

[brianpk80]

How often would you want to be able to recur something to disenchant for 2W each time?  Why not just play Seal of Cleansing if you're so scared of Oath and be done with it?

I think the answer would be that this is a card advantage deck and the allure of recycling Moxen and additional Vials back into Disenchants is the main allure.  I'm reserving opinion on the card as a whole, but I sense that is why it would have more appeal in this shell.  The casting cost is also nice. 

[OwenTheEnchanter]

The casting cost is also nice. 

4 is nicer than 2?

[brianpk80]

The casting cost is also nice. 

4 is nicer than 2?

Um... is nicer than . 

It has to do with timing during which you can play the spell.  Turn 1, for instance.   

[OwenTheEnchanter]

It still costs more. Sure you can put it on the table faster but that only matters vs Duress effects, and thats hardly relevant.

EDIT: you can't honestly say that you favor the Capsule because 'it costs less'.

[nineisnoone]

The only time I'd play it would be as a 1-of in a Trinket Mage tool box.  And it would be in the sideboard.

[brianpk80]

It still costs more. Sure you can put it on the table faster but that only matters vs Duress effects, and thats hardly relevant.

EDIT: you can't honestly say that you favor the Capsule because 'it costs less'.

1 < 2.  It's relevant against its most essential target, Oath of Druids, because it allows you to play it on Turn 1 eschewing any non-FoW counter.  You're not using this to destroy an artifact or enchantment here; rather it's being used to prevent that enchantment from even being played.  No Oath player would walk right into this thing or Seal of Cleansing.  V. Seal, this is more expensive to activate, but cheaper to cast and recyclable with Welder. 

I didn't say I favored it or even suggest running Seal of Cleansing effects.  I offered some pros to counterbalance its cons.  You need to read what I write more carefully. 

[Guli]

I also think it is a matter of SB against oath. Right now I am using Ray of Revelation because it will get the job done with gamble without an active welder. A mix would not be a bad idea to be honest so you can choose accordingly depending on whether a welder is active or not.

Another point I want to state is that I am trying to search for cards that CONNECT the already existing cards in the main while at the same time answering a match up. To elaborate this: Gamble becomes stronger when an artifact is added like this. Or something with flashback. Also Grudge and Ray are instants. This means you are giving Tarm an important boost, this is relevant in my play testings this happened often. On the other hand Flashback cards do not connect the extra artifacts in the deck with welder. A card like Dispeller's Capsule will to many things.
1. Weldable
2. Makes ALL your artifacts disenchants and USEFUL
3.The triangle gamble-welder-artifacts is more optimal
4. More versitale, Ray is only for ench and  Grudhe is artifact hate.
5. Does need welder to work.
6. Doesn't get rid if Null Rod

The last points are the strongest con arguments. That is why I think a mix should be used. If the games enters mid-late stage you will have plenty of artifact and mana to comfortably reuse Dispeller's Capsule.

[Guli]

Having 3x Key and then 4x Tarmogoyf seems a bit "identity crisis" to me... it seems like you'd be better off sticking with one direction, possibly with a minor backup plan.  In general, if Tarmogoyf is worth including, I would make sure that the beat-down route is the main goal of the deck.  The Gamble combo is fascinating, but wouldn't you rather just draw more disruption to assure a beat-down victory?

It seems like Gamble could almost end up being its own deck, one that could truly utilize the speed of one to win immediately.  Perhaps a Charbelcher-type skeleton modified to win with Vault/key.

I think for this deck it would be a more appropriate strategy to rely on the power of your critters as a win condition, and beef up the disruption pieces & aggro elements.

Ye i think gamble could be used as a theme on itself. But what I try to achieve here in this deck is a cheap quick blow win. Welders becomes super dangerous. By creating multiple threats with my creature base I opt to put a lot pressure early on. There is always the random turn 2 kill. If I have welder and gamble in beginning hand i can combo of turn 2 or turn 3. So the potential to combo of really soon is real. You cast your dudes, you apply pressure, they try to deal with it, suddenly you combo and they can't really deal with it because they were occupied. I think that is a great strategy to follow. It is flexible and gives a player the option to change strategies over the course of the game. For example, when you feel like you are being outplayed with wastelands and good tempo play (this can happen to all of us), you can quickly go for the combo route. I do this when when I feel like i am not going to make it in the long run, based on my play experience. I do protect my combo with Vexing though and stall with clamp/bears and draw into more cards. You can get away with this stall/delay/clamp/combo tactics if you are playing a deck that has long term plans. Against combo you just get down that canonist/teeg/tarm asap and beat them hard while messing around with their mana with shaman and welder.

Gamble is a card that needs to be interpreted correctly like Vial. I don't think you can understand a card just by reading the printings, you need to play test it. A note on gamble, it is stronger in decks that use 4 offs like teeg and canonist. I experimented with turn 1 gambles for lotus and exploded after that a lot. I do burn my hand fast but I also got a tarm/canonist on the board beating for 6-8. What I try to say that it doesn't hurt me the way you guys assume it would hurt me. In fact most of the times I want the card to go yo my grave .

An example (just for illustrative purposes :

You casted down TeeG and it got force (contro/combo)
You have 1 red mana open (mox ruby)
You have a welder active and a tarm
You are holding a gamble and canonist, and you know you will die next turn if you don't get canonist in the game. You have no vial or key but you do have clamp and he doesn't have much life left anymore. What do you do? (something you can't do in any other deck, specific for this deck, unique)

 

[Tha Gunslinga]

It still costs more. Sure you can put it on the table faster but that only matters vs Duress effects, and thats hardly relevant.

EDIT: you can't honestly say that you favor the Capsule because 'it costs less'.

1 < 2.  It's relevant against its most essential target, Oath of Druids, because it allows you to play it on Turn 1 eschewing any non-FoW counter.

Player A: Fetchland, go
Player B: Land, Capsule
Player A: Orchard, fetch, Oath, go
Player B: Land, go
Player A: trigger Oath, play wasteland, toast one of your lands
Player B: GG.  Wow, Capsule sucks.

[Guli]

It still costs more. Sure you can put it on the table faster but that only matters vs Duress effects, and thats hardly relevant.

EDIT: you can't honestly say that you favor the Capsule because 'it costs less'.

1 < 2.  It's relevant against its most essential target, Oath of Druids, because it allows you to play it on Turn 1 eschewing any non-FoW counter.

Player A: Fetchland, go
Player B: Land, Capsule
Player A: Orchard, fetch, Oath, go
Player B: Land, go
Player A: trigger Oath, play wasteland, toast one of your lands
Player B: GG.  Wow, Capsule sucks.

I fetch basic land turn 1, unless I know 100% that opponent doesn't use waste effects. I also have skullclamps. Your tokens are just 2 cards for me. Also there is lots of acceleration. But never mind these hypothetical situations. I don't think the Oath player will like playing against capsule/welder/clamp. I wanted to bring Capsule to the highlight because I found the card interesting enough.

[Troy_Costisick]

Your tokens are just 2 cards for me.

If he does it on your end step, you won't be drawing anything that turn.  It's enough for him to pop Helkite or Angel in play.  You really can't count on Skullclamp to nullify Orchar Tokens.

Peace,

-Troy

[Guli]

Your tokens are just 2 cards for me.

If he does it on your end step, you won't be drawing anything that turn.  It's enough for him to pop Helkite or Angel in play.  You really can't count on Skullclamp to nullify Orchar Tokens.

Peace,

-Troy

I am aware of that my friend, but in real game it doesn't work like that. That first token always gives me 2 cards in oath matchup, and those 2 cards make a lot of difference. I also run 1 maindeck ray of revelation with 4 gamble and also 1 crypt and 4 welders to fight Sharuum versions. Skullclamp makes a huge difference in the oath match up, i am not counting that clamp will win me the game at all. I am saying that he makes a huge difference and buys me important time to get my own combo, i don't need much cards, when i can clamp 2 tokens and a shaman or welder that means I am digging really deep and will see keys/gambles/shushers and that means big trouble for the oath player especially if he isn't expecting those rather rare tactics against Oath. In game 2 i will side in additinal Oath hate like STP, Revelation, Crypts and I feel pretty safe with that. Still a very quick Oath/Orch is very hard to beat, but that is the power of Oath against any deck.
Btw this deck is very fast in finding the combo, don't make the mistake that their are creatures they are there to put pressure sure but the combo IS coming sooner or later (if he isn't already dead). I have gathered a lot play experience now in all kinds of match ups. Also a lot of times I raced the Oath/Hellkite player with tarm/clamps overwhelming him with creatures. Haven't seen a lot Angel/Oath to be honest but with tarm and clamps as extra firepower I don't see myself doing that bad unless it was a very fast Oath and I have no clamps or Ray to deal with it.

[bluemage55]

Are you kidding me? This is probably the best thread we got going on the whole TMD. Seriously name me one that is more insightful to any aspiring deckbuilder?

What you believe to be "insightful to aspiring deckbuilders" does not fit the criteria for decks that belong in the Open forum.  Decks don't go in the Open forum because they are inspiring or encouraging to novices.

The Open form is for serious Vintage discussion; a deck that doesn't even have its foundations in the ground yet does not qualify as such.  This deck has neither a functioning game plan nor drawing engine, and is mostly an amalgamation of aggressive cards that happen to be disruptive on their own.  A bunch of good cards in the same category does not a competitive deck make.

[nineisnoone]

If you already beat Oath then why are you playing Dispeller's Capsule?  Let's not devolve this into a discussion about Oath plays....  We're talking about Dispeller's Capsule.  

Discussing the card in the abstract, the card is bad.  There really is no question about that.  It's a four mana Disenchant.  In the abstract, it cannot possibly be a worthwhile card.

If we are discussing it as a part of a synergy of cards, you really need to give us a deck to work with.  If you want to play it as an answer to Oath, then you have to address why it's better than all of the other cards you can (and do) put in your sideboard.  What are you going to cut?  Is being able to recur it relevant in any match-up?  Is it really worth a slot in the main deck to play Dispeller?  Is it really worth a slot in the sideboard?  I don't believe so.  

Game 1 it's not relevant in any most match-ups.  Especially when you consider that Welder is already strong when you are going against artifacts and without Welder it's just a 4 mana disenchant.  Even in the match where it is relevant, Oath, playing Dispeller before seeing the Oath is insane unless you somehow know that they are playing Oath.  And then it is still just a 4 mana disenchant.  

Dispeller's is a presumptively bad card.  To be honest, we really shouldn't have to go this deep into discussing it.  If you have something to show that it's good, then really you need to be the one to make a case for it.  There's no reason why other people should have to defend the position that a four mana disenchant is a bad card.  

Also, I think you need to realize with Gamble and Dispellers.... Synergy is when good cards work with other good cards to become better.  When you do something like Gorilla Shaman and Goblin Welder, that is a synergy.  When you have a bad card that works with other cards to become better, that is called dependence.  That's like Gamble and Goblin Welder.  Synergy is different than Dependence.  Every under-powered deck needs synergy, and needs to avoid dependence.  

[nineisnoone]

What you believe to be "insightful to aspiring deckbuilders" does not fit the criteria for decks that belong in the Open forum.  Decks don't go in the Open forum because they are inspiring or encouraging to novices.

The Open form is for serious Vintage discussion; a deck that doesn't even have its foundations in the ground yet does not qualify as such.  This deck has neither a functioning game plan nor drawing engine, and is mostly an amalgamation of aggressive cards that happen to be disruptive on their own.  A bunch of good cards in the same category does not a competitive deck make.

To be honest I agree (not to insult the thread or anything) especially with how it has gone on recently...  a single card discussion on Dispeller's Capsule isn't exactly serious Vintage discussion.

But backseat moderating is only going to get people upset and will only make the discussion even more divergent from Open forum quality (like this post for example).  If you feel that way, just PM the moderator (or even PM the rest of TMD to get them to PM the moderator if you care enough) and let them know about it. 

[Guli]

I don't think anybody is 'upset'. You can't expect the entire thread to be high quality. There are good stuff in this thread present but I am sure a lot of irrelevant stuff has been discussed as well. The important thing is it moved people a little and triggered a decent contribution overall. And frankly when I go scroll in the other threads I don't really see that much quality either, its just people sharing their ideas and thoughts about something they have in common, magic.

Bluemage55 is simply giving his opinion like the rest, he does this in a poor fashion without contribution but that is his own choice. He didn't get much attention but now the second time he came to post 'an opinion' he actually succeeded to become a focal point. I will try to answer you Bluemage55, but I hope you open your ears and really listen.

Some decks go in open forum and some don't is a statement that I can extrapolate from your reply to Mantis. I have used the search button my dear fellow TMD user. I did not find a thread about the Gaddock featuring a deck around this spell denial theme with fish. In fact it is widely accepted that you SHOULD run mana denial. What a perfect way for me to go in the exact opposite direction. I refuse to run Null Rod, even if I find it one of the best cards that fish can use right now. I want explore other approaches, other strategies other than mana denial in fish. (i use shaman but that is about it) If you had taken the time to read my posts you would have understand me and my approach better. I don't really care how much cards you draw or mana you have, I will stop you from using that advantage and making you entire strategy of searching and drawing and building up mana and storm futile. How? By lowering the effectiveness and so the power level of your cards. You tutor and draw to do something with them, when I separate your cards from each other by using Canonist they lose power and momentum. I break the link between your cards. I also do this by giving you less time with Tarmogoyf. Less time means less cards means less connection between the cards in your deck. You still have powerful cards that don't need multiple links, like Tinker. It gets your DC in the game. No fish can ignore that Tinker is out there and needs to have some kind of answer against it. I don't even care about Tinker anymore. I find it a weak play against my build. But Welder does so much more. He is so busy all the time tapping and working hard. You can not stop Canonist. Too much ways to get him in. You will need to extirpate it to actually get rid of him. Vial/Welder/Shusher will make sure canonist hits the board. I found out that teeg and canonist next to each other is the answer. You don't need more against combo. Those two are enough. Bounce does not really help because I have vials. Rebuild only helps if you have a second bounce spell, but you don't get that much time. That canonist will hit fast with the acceleration and 4 copies in main, not to mention gamble that can get him as well. And once he hits the search for an answer will start. That is were shaman and Tarmo come in. Not to mention a TeeG resolving, if you can stop him. Shusher is my guy when I play drain decks if my vial was countered. You simply can't stop shusher followed by teeg or canonist. The story of the creatures is once again told. I think this creature base can put a lot of pressure on the opponent. And this base evolved from the earlier lists and attempts. And it will most likely continue to change, it is dynamic.  The changes were made after testing and testing and thinking, tuning, reading, ... I hope you can recognize the work put into this thread, if you don't you are not really reading.

I write because I enjoy sharing. Using the pen gives me pleasure. Getting feedback is also nice. But only of it is full and not an empty shell. I can take criticism as long as it is well put together. Writing a couple lines without real contribution is empty. But it does not 'upset' me at all. I just would appreciate it more if the feedback was more constructive and inviting.

This thread belongs were it is right now. I hope some of you who read and post actually tried the deck and moved to the practical side of this idea and not just theoretical. If the comments are still based pure speculation then there is the danger of miscommunication between the people who actually KNOW how cards in the deck work and people who are imagining a couple of situations and making incorrect correlations.

Also I think play skill and experience matter a lot as well. Maybe YOU are just bad with a certain card or had some BAD experiences with it. Or you were using it in the wrong deck in the wrong way. That is highly subjective. Be aware.

All right I ll stop right here. I talk too much. I hope i made SOME sense.

Cheers,

Guli

[bluemage55]

Bluemage55 is simply giving his opinion like the rest, he does this in a poor fashion without contribution but that is his own choice. He didn't get much attention but now the second time he came to post 'an opinion' he actually succeeded to become a focal point. I will try to answer you Bluemage55, but I hope you open your ears and really listen.

I find it amusing that you're asking me to listen when the rest of your reply doesn't actually address any of my points.

Some decks go in open forum and some don't is a statement that I can extrapolate from your reply to Mantis. I have used the search button my dear fellow TMD user. I did not find a thread about the Gaddock featuring a deck around this spell denial theme with fish. In fact it is widely accepted that you SHOULD run mana denial. What a perfect way for me to go in the exact opposite direction. I refuse to run Null Rod, even if I find it one of the best cards that fish can use right now. I want explore other approaches, other strategies other than mana denial in fish. (i use shaman but that is about it) If you had taken the time to read my posts you would have understand me and my approach better. I don't really care how much cards you draw or mana you have, I will stop you from using that advantage and making you entire strategy of searching and drawing and building up mana and storm futile. How? By lowering the effectiveness and so the power level of your cards. You tutor and draw to do something with them, when I separate your cards from each other by using Canonist they lose power and momentum. I break the link between your cards. I also do this by giving you less time with Tarmogoyf. Less time means less cards means less connection between the cards in your deck. You still have powerful cards that don't need multiple links, like Tinker. It gets your DC in the game. No fish can ignore that Tinker is out there and needs to have some kind of answer against it. I don't even care about Tinker anymore. I find it a weak play against my build. But Welder does so much more. He is so busy all the time tapping and working hard. You can not stop Canonist. Too much ways to get him in. You will need to extirpate it to actually get rid of him. Vial/Welder/Shusher will make sure canonist hits the board. I found out that teeg and canonist next to each other is the answer. You don't need more against combo. Those two are enough. Bounce does not really help because I have vials. Rebuild only helps if you have a second bounce spell, but you don't get that much time. That canonist will hit fast with the acceleration and 4 copies in main, not to mention gamble that can get him as well. And once he hits the search for an answer will start. That is were shaman and Tarmo come in. Not to mention a TeeG resolving, if you can stop him. Shusher is my guy when I play drain decks if my vial was countered. You simply can't stop shusher followed by teeg or canonist. The story of the creatures is once again told. I think this creature base can put a lot of pressure on the opponent. And this base evolved from the earlier lists and attempts. And it will most likely continue to change, it is dynamic.  The changes were made after testing and testing and thinking, tuning, reading, ... I hope you can recognize the work put into this thread, if you don't you are not really reading.

Simply because a deck is innovative does not mean it is good.  Whether or not other Teeg-centered decks have been discussed does not mean that it is a deck that merits Open forum discussion, nor does putting a lot of work into a thread make a decklist competitively viable.  One of the big differences between this thread and other fish decks is that this isn't posting up any tournament results.

I write because I enjoy sharing. Using the pen gives me pleasure. Getting feedback is also nice. But only of it is full and not an empty shell. I can take criticism as long as it is well put together. Writing a couple lines without real contribution is empty. But it does not 'upset' me at all. I just would appreciate it more if the feedback was more constructive and inviting.

I've never criticized your decision to write and contribute to TMD.  Nor am I criticizing your pet deck, as plenty of people have already offered you constructive criticism you've ignored. No, the only point that I made is that this deck probably does not belong in the Open forum as it is still in an embryonic stage.

This thread belongs were it is right now. I hope some of you who read and post actually tried the deck and moved to the practical side of this idea and not just theoretical. If the comments are still based pure speculation then there is the danger of miscommunication between the people who actually KNOW how cards in the deck work and people who are imagining a couple of situations and making incorrect correlations.

The burden is upon you to prove that your deck works when many people, some of them very accomplished players, are questioning the design.

Also I think play skill and experience matter a lot as well. Maybe YOU are just bad with a certain card or had some BAD experiences with it. Or you were using it in the wrong deck in the wrong way. That is highly subjective. Be aware.

I think when a person has to resort to personal attacks to defend a pet deck, it's because they don't have legitimate arguments for why it is viable.

[Guli]

I have not ignored anything at all of the feedback. But you can't know that because you haven't really read this thread at all. Be specific. You have done 3 posts about how YOU find this deck not viable or doesn't belong in some section of a forum. Why are you focusing so hard on were it belongs which is totally off topic and not in the spirit of this thread.

I think when a person has to resort to personal attacks to defend a pet deck, it's because they don't have legitimate arguments for why it is viable.

My post wasn't addressed to 1 person at all. It was a general statement.

Questioning the design? I also question the deck and cards mate, that is the whole point. Keeping yourself open minded.

You are the one that is taking this entire thread personal. I said many times that I rather talk about the more general issues of my approach but the majority of posters replied on the concrete cards of the deck. One of the goals of this deck is to open up new possibilities for aggro basic control. The fact that it got so deck and card oriented is not someones blame. You are saying that all the posts the people made are not ' worthy ' enough to be in the ' open forum '. I don't share the same perspective mate. Now let us get the discussion rolling again. Forget about the sections of the forum, they do not matter nor contribute. Or do you feel uncomfortable when you open TMD and you see this thread on your screen in the OPEN section?

I asked this question before but it didn't get any attention. Now that there is some tension, thanks to you, i will use this opportunity to ask again.

The approach of mana denial and a clock is an effective way too disrupt and win the game. I see that as the Null Rod route.
The route I am following is the Vial route which can clearly NOT be combined with Null Rod. Can we please start a discussion about this fundamental topic. This is more the debate I was looking for instead of lists and cards and changes. Sure those changes and lists will also be a part of the thread but should not form the entire thread itself.

Guli

[OwenTheEnchanter]

This deck probably shouldn't be in open as (to my knowledge) it has no impressive tournament finishes.

[Guli]

This deck probably shouldn't be in open as (to my knowledge) it has no impressive tournament finishes.

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