Aggro & Control, the real meaning: Mr. Gaddock

[Guli]

3 grind stones?  Is It to make you more sure you combo?  I know that sounds explanatory but I thought they were to ops if game A wasn't working or is it now more of a combo kill deck?

Last, doesn't having hardly any draw and no fetchouts kind of.. well.. suck.  Top deck like a champ, right.

The answer lies in the 3 grind stones and the welders. Figure it out I never ever put cards in just because they happen to be a popular win condition. I am not the bandwagon type. I put welder/grind/painter for very specific reasons. They interact!
Welder+grindstone = draw
Welder+Painter = Vial + Painter = Safekeeper + Painter (Welder protects and at the same time forces Painter in)
Painter + Grindstone = Good Game

Welder alone = good vs stax, answer to tinker, protects/welds canonist, generates mana, disrupts mana, good against opposing welders too
Painter alone = helps against aggro, can backfire if they also play grindstone (BE CAREFUL), is 2cc so can be vialed in, he will get in play you can be sure of that
Grindstone alone = can boost tarm, answer to enemy Painter, can be funny against oath or dredge

Now to make these cards more synergistic addition cards can be added.

Right now the card I am working on is Magus of The Moon believe it or not. He isn't 2 mana but he does say that the opponent can't play most of his spells and its instant effect.
I would like to add in all good critters but i have to set priorities. Susher and azorious are both extremely favored in my personal world. But i can't let my emotions take over. The deck needs to be/stay effective and extremely competitive. I already have vial and welder to give me the effect of 'uncounterable'

I am also looking for ways to make safekeeper more versatile if he is main deck anyway. I am looking in the land pool (Flagstones of Trokair, riftstone,..) but what really caught my attention is the Weathered Wayfarer. This walking land tax could help me fix mana and act as a draw engine. Lands are counters with safekeeper especially if they really want to get rid of teeg or believer. The thing that sets me off is the summoning sickness and he has to tap and he uses my mana (which is less bad because he also delivers lands) I admit sometimes I do had to sac a lot of lands to keep my creatures alive and it did hurt (though vial held the advantage). Because he can get any land you can add interesting lands to the deck. Overall i don't think this is great play. Safekeeper is barely holding its spot in main deck just because he is so damn good with my high quality creatures and quantity as well. Safekeeperis acts as my 'counter balance' against spot removal. A permanent that is hard to get rid of and makes all your bears survive longer.

I will experiment with these new ideas and report back here.

In the mean time keep bringing in new ideas and explain why and how as well. I love the feedback.

Guli

[Relwarbeht]

Guli I've been following this thread since you posted it, and although I haven't commented on it I agree that the deck has lost its focus.  Originally you began as the quintessential vintage aggro deck, which is to say a soft lock + a clock to end the game before the lock is broken.  The originality of the deck was the different approach mentioned in your first post, and towards creating this deck as a distinctive archetype, I believe you need to refine what makes it original/different, so that it is not simply a 'fish variant'.  To do so, it seems you need to stress the defining features of this deck: Canonist, Teeg, with Safekeeper for protection.  From there you could go two ways, focusing on your clock as protection for your lock, or more lock peices towards a harder lock, since the latter wasn't the focus of the thread I'll disregard it.  Tarmogoyf's presence is an indication on an emphasis on the clock as protection idea.

Now you've moved the deck into a non-complementary side strategy, in that painter's/grindstone isn't benefited by any other part of the deck, nor does it benefit any other part (In the way more focused painter's decks with REB/FoW function).  It seems fine to make the deck's focus its soft lock with a combo finish, similar to how bomberman or MUD combo decks work.  However, your essentially wasting slots+resources (Cards/mana) by including both painter's and Tarmogoyfs.  You could make an argument that having two ways towards victory give the deck resiliency, but due to the dis-synergy between them (Grindstone + tarmogoyf is just as good as tarmogoyf, same with painters+goyf, or Welder/Goyf, Grindstone/Welder, and any other combination of the cards in your deck) I would say you open yourself to disruption in the form of counterspells+discard taking not 1 card from you, but also the reliant synergistic card.

This is similar to the charge counters, core tapper ect stuff, its non-complementary with a resulting negative effect on the decks ability to function.  However, I would not completely discount the entire discussion, as I believe Welder has potential.  Just generally, its probably (simply?) the best creature ever printed, and as a metagame call by itself (no painters combo in deck) it would likely be relevant in many matchups.  In that sense, I would say its valuable as a sb card or as a metagame-main deck slot, particuarly because you already run vial.

As far as suggestions of my own for the deck, I would focus on its consistency which ever way you go with it, simply because that is one of the main reasons to play something like this over a ritual or drain based strategies, which are bordering on singleton territory.  So if your going to stick with Painters/Grind stone, in your GWx build your going to need tutors or card quality to address the problem of having dis-synergistic pieces in your hand, whether that means Black for its tutors, Blue for Trinket mage or tinker ect, or red for Gamble/welder ect is up to you.  What I think is a more viable (read competetive) route to take the deck would be to focus more on the clock as lock protection aspect of your deck and work on the consistency there.  That means 4x all your main creatures obviously, with maybe 3 teegs.  Focus the early game on disrupting your opponent like your original deck intended, however you do that is up to you, aven mindcensor is a possibility, black for discard maybe, blue for the mana denial you hate, red for magus ect.  I would stick to a 2 color base with a splash, because you want your deck to essentially work the same way every game (this is called consistency) with no hiccups, as hiccups spell death for the vintage aggro archetype, since your opponent can simply win in any window you provide them.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The pro of the effect would be an advantage if one could find a way to play a spell, any spell, on opponent's upkeep, especially if it's some sort of spell that can recur. 

An instant with Retrace might be appropriate.  Oona's Grace provides you with additional land to discard, but kinda sucks outside the lock.  Well...it lets you cycle extra land late game...but 2U is an excessive price for the effect.  Also, their recourse is going to be instant speed bounce and the active player has priority.  So, you'd have to use Voidmage Prodigy or something like it to counter their unanswerable answer. 

In any case, Erayo and 'stuff' is an easier way to set up a very similar effect.  To even play an Ad Nauseam, the opponent will have to Ritual.  If you play even one spell each turn and can bluff instant speed anything, Erayo might be scary.  This is still a lot of work to duplicate what Ethersworn Canonist and Gaddock Teeg do more elegantly.

4 Sylvan Safekeeper

I'm curious as to your thoughts on his Safekeepers?  They easily stand out as Guli's most contentious inclusion.  They answer spot removal quite nicely, but they fail against repeatable or mass removal.  Appropriate in this meta?

[Guli]

I'm curious as to your thoughts on his Safekeepers?  They easily stand out as Guli's most contentious inclusion.  They answer spot removal quite nicely, but they fail against repeatable or mass removal.  Appropriate in this meta?

The time it will cost them to look for multiple answers AND at the same time have their storm kill ready to go of in their hand is highly unlikely against a deck that uses teegs, mages, vials, believers, canonists...

Mass removal is usually stopped by TeeG himself or if there are Volcanics in the area naming Pyroclasm isn't a bad call with Mage especially after game 1.

The problem is Rebuild. Tinker issue is less of a problem because of Welders. But a well timed rebuild could spell problems when you only have a canonist in play. Therefore I am looking for a way to outplay the rebuild (tps) strategies. Looking at mana maze. The problem with rebuild is not that canonist gets bounced alone but the vials go back home as well. I think the answer is to make the deck less rely on canonist and frankly that is a bit the case anyway in this build. They are more a slow card than a lock piece. Believer is stronger in this theme in most situations and the words shroud can't be emphasized more. Safekeeper+Believer looks cute. The thing is these creatures are like slivers. They don't give abilities to each other but they to strengthen one another when cast. Believer + Canonist is for example very nice to stop HurkRecall which is a strong card against Vial/Fish. You can't stop rebuild but you can cast creatures that don't care about it. That is why i am using the 3x3x3 configuration. I rather have 1 of each teeg/canon/believer in my hand than 2 copies of the same.

[brianpk80]

I think the best first step would be to reduce the quantity of slots dedicated to the alt-kill and replace them all with 1 Time Vault and 1 Voltaic Key.  It would enable the deck to dedicate itself 97% of the time to the gameplan while using a few open slots remaining for the "Ooops, I win" factor.  Including tutors of course magnifies the threat, even while keeping the cards in question at only two slots, 1 for Key, 1 for Vault.  I prefer Key/Vault to Grindstone for multiple reasons, the biggest one being the comparatively prohibitive activation cost of Grindstone.  3 doesn't sound like a lot on paper or in theory but when you're Tinkering or Tutoring or Welding out Moxen to get something going on a pinch, that easy "1, Tap" ability of Voltaic Key is much more desirable. 

[Guli]

Tarmogoyf's presence is an indication on an emphasis on the clock as protection idea.

I wouldn't focus too much on Tarm, he is just a solid drop for 2 mana. He will not end the game on its own, he will more likely function like canonist, less time, less cards you will face.
But its true what you say, the reason why i didn't add Tarm in the original list (that list is gone now) is because it might not be the focus of this deck to generate a fast clock. Still it is really helpful when things don't go the way you planned and you have a 4/5 on the board. I was thinking though. I had this hunch about a fat body and welder. I once had this deck with memory jar and welder where one of my cards to get memory jar into play was Wild Mongrel. Remember that bad ass? HeHe, I think he can also provide a clock with some loam's. Dropping the grind/painter and replacing it with the next card pool might bring in more disruption and focus:

4 Wild Mongrel (Clock, synergy welder, turns dead cards into damage)
2 Life from The Loam (draw engine, strip lock, damage with mongrel, gets in artifacts for welder)
1 Strip (  )
1 Bazaar (best draw ever printed on a land, cycles dead cards, with loam can become a mid game non counterable draw engine)

Now there are lots of options again, we can go with strong artifacts and try to weld them in. Or things like flashback & madness can be used. Or both...

What i would like to solve a couple of things:
+ I want my big fatty to do more than just beat
+ I want to solve my problem with top deck mode
+ I want to add a card that interacts with safekeeper while at the same time with other cards.

There is no point in going for a combo kill if your deck can't tutor for the pieces. And playing 3x of each isn't exactly that productive either. The card that sticks is Welder though. He has been truly amazing.

My thoughts are:

2 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Gorilla Shaman

They both disrupt mana (eat mox, get strip)
They both strengthen stax match up (this match up is getting more and more favorable)
Shaman interacts with Welder while Wayfarer interacts with Safekeeper.
Together the create a mana advantage

These suggestions are not to play the mana denial game. But to surprise and be busy with some form of disruption while you do your main thing with bears. Strip and Shaman are cards that can really take you by surprise. I like the element of surprise.

How do you guys feel about this route instead of the grind/painter? Remember it is still possible to keep the combo kill (1xgrind/1xpainter and/or 1xkey/1xvault) or play with things like Jar+Welder+Mongrel or other big artifacts with special effects. (lots of them out there)

[Guli]

it seems you need to stress the defining features of this deck: Canonist, Teeg, with Safekeeper for protection.  From there you could go two ways, focusing on your clock as protection for your lock

This was indeed the initial route. Staying with 3 colors and playing a more focused mainstream deck has definitely got its advantages. Solid builds come from that kind of deck building. However solid is just solid not extraordinary. A list that would fit in with the upper quote is:


    4 Sylvan Safekeeper (Counter against bounce, spot removal)
    3 Gaddock Teeg (Mr. Gaddock)
    4 Meddling Mage (Mr. Gaddock's cousin)
    3 True Believer  (Another friend of Gaddock)
    4 Ethersworn Canonist (Walking arcane)
    4 Wild Mongrel (beat them fast and hard, play curio,keen on this)
    4 Tarmogoyf (beat them fast and hard, play curio,keen on this)


    1 Black Lotus
    1 Time Walk
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Sapphire
    4 AEther Vial
    3 Life from the Loam
    3 Curiosity
    3 Keen Sense

[Guli]

All right, after clearing my mind and focusing on the original idea i came to the conclusion that i need to think more basic. What is the problem? How can I solve it?

The problem was prison/shop/stax because my primary creatures are not super effective against artifacts. (They still do lots of things but they can't get the job done)

Solution: Goblin Welder + Gorilla Shaman
Bonus: Answer to tinker, secondary way to get canonist in, surprise factor of shaman, these 2 work well together

Another problem is creature control. Doesn't matter if they are big or not. You need creature control. Why not go back to the established working base?

Solution: Gilded Drake + Waterfront Bouncer
Bonus: Answer to tinker, bouncer and discard artifacts for welder, they are insane together against aggro

So that is (if all of them get 3 slots) a total of 12 secondary creatures and 18 primary creatures. 30 Creatures and let's say 24 mana sources vials included + walk/recall that leaves us with 4 open slots to work with. Let's say they are meta slots? Use Tarm if you really want so. Use whatever your heart desires. But thing is in the beginning of this thread someone mentioned scullclamps. Back then the deck packed no welders but now it does and I am considering clamps in those slots to be honest. It does help the clock and with canonist/welder skullclamp becomes interesting.

Keep throwing in ideas

Guli

[Dr.KnowMaD]

One thing I was looking at is the manprison aspect and wanted to stick with that to start.  I always liked the idea of using something like dudes to lock and beat down the old fashioned way.  Same goes for land based, artifact, an enchantment lock & win decks.  So many possibilities to try/ways to go and it's interesting to read all of them coming from everyone.

Starting with a first turn Vexing Shusher (If not him maybe Chalice of the Void, but thats later) had more benefits than draw backs to me.  First it can get through and shut down one of the most widely use tactics in the format and the game for that mater.  Then he begins the smack down on the next turn.  It's so impotent for the aggro aspect to be as aggro as possible, the more attacking and less taping for abilities the better.  He is more mana intensive but one extra mana to stick is like Naturalize - Krosan Grip, worth it.  Shusher and vials are bonus together.

Next I would want to stop the spells that are most likely going to hurt me the most.  I'm thinking I might see a lot of tinkers and tendrils so that is Goblin Welder and Gadock Teeg  Welder is cheap so he's fairly quick to get down.  Teeg nicely stops some of the other spells that are a pain for the Dudes, massacre and engineered explosives, plus.  Spot removal will be handled effectively by the Safekeeper.  Safekeeper is a keeper.

I also noticed a conflict with opposing creatures.  Thats one of the reasons I thought something like Chalice.  If they can't play theirs (i.e no vials/vexer) and you can thats the idea in the first place.  The sucks is Teeg and Chalice don't play nice.  I want teeg in fast but chalice and shusher first, that can be a problem.  If that order can occur than they are good Chalice-lower spells Teeg- higher spells.  The conflict is still a problem.
A creature that ate things would work but I don't know a really good one of the top of my head.  Stealing things like Memnarch is cool.  bounce is cool. but what will be the most effective/efficient is not known to me yet.

I'm sure I like True Believers in this build, they don't affect a lot, but things that are still important.  Second tendrils stoppers are good around here. They stay for now but only a couple.

Its really hard for me to not run Tarmogoyf if I use green.  Really hard.  Stay

There are two cards I'm not sure of anymore .  First the Meddling mage I like a lot its awesome to name a card not to be played, but what card? I don't get to reset him in this so..  One of the many singletons?  Sure yawgwill, tinker, goyf are good.  Much better in the second game though.  If I do keep them its also going to be a one or two of to dig or fetch out.  Second is the Canonists.  Stopping storm is hot but Teeg and believers already do this.  even then it can still be played around with small storms even artifacts/rebuild,hurklys tendrils or sided appropriately (tarmogoyfs). It does not stop tinker. It does not stop one per turn creatures or many artifact creatures.  Its on the cutting room floor at the moment.


Some others to think about. Gorilla Shaman (slows tinker), Magus of the Moon, Trinket Mage (nice for lots of goodies especially a well fitting pithing needle) for in the main and some sb cteatures for situational matches like Dredge. (jailers, children, Hooligans)

I heart the Mongrel and my mad peasant deck uses them with  four Gush, Brainstorms, ex.. not here, not at least without Gush.  Maybe with draw sevens like the Welding Jar?

Still thinking on the Glittering Wish for things like Meddling Mage, the fourth Teeg (if I don't just play four main) and Wheel of sun and Moon, Plus other Charming tricks are very enticing.

It funny how people can get onto the same wave.  I wanted one of the best non blue draw engines, full Bazaar of Baghdad and stick with the four Squee.  It gives your welders something else to do and good with goyf.  Can you Dig it?
 
A couple of Crucible of Worlds would smoke to get online (Shushed/welded) with that stripmine and has the needed synergy with Safekeeper.
More mana base tweeking will be done like gemstone mines, land, or something

                                                                                                                                                                     Some thoughts
                                                                                                                                                                       Dr.KnowMaD

[brianpk80]

Guli,

I was toying around on MWS yesterday and came across another person running your deck.  It seems to be proliferating.  I knew the deck had been originated from here because the person opened with AEther Vial and Sylvan Safekeeper and Vialed out Gaddock Teeg.  However, this person was also running Gorilla Shaman, a choice I would wholeheartedly endorse.

Since I had an added amount of rec time this week, I spent a lot of it re-exploring Vintage.  Some observations I've had:

Azorius Guildmage is really quite good at the moment.  He comes online at Turn 3 and has been effective in stopping many tactics du jour, like Vault, Grindstone, Helm, recurring Wasteland, Triskelion, and Engineered Explosives.  Some random stuff has also been nixed by his ability, including Nevinyrral's Disk & Pernicious Deed.  Breaking combat standstills by tapping things strategically at EoT and keeping DSC and his friends at bay is also very strong.  If the mana base can support Azorius, I'd highly recommend him because he serves the exact kind of role Vial Fish enjoys in its creatures--warm bodies that have strong foiling abilities against a broad cross section of the metagame at any given time.  By serving this role against "tap the artifact and win the game" kills, aggro-control, Tinker, and other large targetable creatures, he's very broad and flexible. 

The most difficult matchup I have is TPS.  Other storm variants are not a serious problem but TSP is considerably more resilient against the hate, primarily because of one card: Rebuild.  It's really quite an amazing card in that deck in that it both builds extreme amounts of storm and eliminates virtually all of the most common lock pieces against it.

I have added a very small green splash for Gaddock and so far, I think he's the MVP in that match.  He shuts off Tendrils, countermagic, Explosives, Massacre, Gifts, Bargain, Desire, hardcast Jar, and is unaffected by Rebuild/Hurkyl's.  While I don't run Safekeeper, given that Gaddock leaves only targeted bounce like CoV or Echoing Truth as the only answer, I can see how they do constitute what would appear to be a hardlock.  I find Storm players like to be "crafty" and "clever" against Fish, putting some enormous creatures from the sideboard in for g2 and g3 hoping we will be "oh so surprised!" and scoop on the spot.  Best solution there is to keep as much critter removal in as possible, in particular the unanswerable Maze of Ith. 

Oath of Druids has become a very peculiar match-up that depends in large part on what kind of draw the Druids player gets and what creatures they run.  Platinum Angel and Darksteel Colossus are pretty manageable overall, followed by Akroma/Dragon, but Tyrant is still a big nuisance if it comes out.  I usually win if Oath of Druids doesn't resolve by Turn 3, but if Turn 1 is Orchard/Mox Oath, then there's a problem.  This is the type of situation where I'm glad we pack the alt-kill.  Where an older list would likely lose without question, tutoring up Time Vault/Voltaic Key gives at least some feasible escape from the Tyrant sitting across the board.  An uphill battle, but not the impossibility pulling the game out would have been in the past.  Keep in mind some of the most famous Oath creatures are legends, so Karakas can be very useful in some of those matches.  It can also rescue Gaddock, Eight-and-a-Half-Tales (if the build employs him in lieu of Safekeepers for Creature protection), and bounce back Karn and some other creatures that make surprise appearances. 

That is all for now.

 

[Guli]

Guli,

I was toying around on MWS yesterday and came across another person running your deck.  It seems to be proliferating.  I knew the deck had been originated from here because the person opened with AEther Vial and Sylvan Safekeeper and Vialed out Gaddock Teeg.  However, this person was also running Gorilla Shaman, a choice I would wholeheartedly endorse.

It might have been me but I am not sure, i changed the list again. Check link in my signature.

I have been abusing skullclamps. I was a bit wrong to dismiss them so quickly in the early pages of this topic. The arguments are:

When you are using specific creatures to answer specific problems skullclamp becomes your draw/cycler/tutor to find the creatures you need by getting rid of the ones you don't need. (Bazaar effect but much better and much more card advantage)
Drawing two of the same is not really good because the effects are not cumulative. With skullclamp you can replace them with new fresh blood.
Goblin Welder is a new addition and he works well with skullclamp/canonist.
2/2 body means drawing 4 cards instead of 2. This is simply game breaking with vials out in the field.

I was shocked how well vial and skullclamp worked. I had 7-8 lands 3 active vials and it was still not enough to play out my hand. I had to discard. There is a point when you get some lands/moxes/vial@2 and from that point on the skullclamp starts to go crazy. The deck becomes unstoppable.

I am quite happy with the list for now. I will make some play experience again and try to deepen my knowledge about this deck. It is easy to theorize and assume things when you see a list but a true fish player knows the corners and traps. I especially like the 3 departments and the way they can interact internal and external and also have a global goal together.

EDIT * hehe cool that i got the 100th post 
Guli

[Dr.KnowMaD]

Skullcklamp for sure, now that you will!

[quote
but a true fish player knows the corners and traps. I especially like the 3 departments and the way they can interact internal and external and also have a global goal together.
EDIT * hehe cool that i got the 100th post    [/quote]




What?

                                                                                                                                      101 time
                                                                                                                                    Dr.KnowMaD

[nineisnoone]

All right, after clearing my mind and focusing on the original idea i came to the conclusion that i need to think more basic. What is the problem? How can I solve it?

The problem was prison/shop/stax because my primary creatures are not super effective against artifacts. (They still do lots of things but they can't get the job done)

Solution: Goblin Welder + Gorilla Shaman
Bonus: Answer to tinker, secondary way to get canonist in, surprise factor of shaman, these 2 work well together

Personally would go for Tin-Street over Shaman.  They both just require 1 red and Tin-Street can destroy any artifact. 

Another problem is creature control. Doesn't matter if they are big or not. You need creature control. Why not go back to the established working base?

Solution: Gilded Drake + Waterfront Bouncer
Bonus: Answer to tinker, bouncer and discard artifacts for welder, they are insane together against aggro

I would rather just go for normal removal (i.e. STP).  But if you really need them to be creatures, I would just go Thornweald Archer.  Trades with everything except for Hellkite Overlord (since that can regenerate) and when you don't need it to trade it beats for two.  Again, I don't like Bouncer here. Tempo decks shouldn't be making anti-tempo plays.

4 Wild Mongrel (beat them fast and hard, play curio,keen on this)

Huh?  I think this is poor call.  I wouldn't run this just for beats. 

I have been abusing skullclamps. I was a bit wrong to dismiss them so quickly in the early pages of this topic.

  

Oath of Druids has become a very peculiar match-up that depends in large part on what kind of draw the Druids player gets and what creatures they run.  Platinum Angel and Darksteel Colossus are pretty manageable overall, followed by Akroma/Dragon, but Tyrant is still a big nuisance if it comes out.  I usually win if Oath of Druids doesn't resolve by Turn 3, but if Turn 1 is Orchard/Mox Oath, then there's a problem.  This is the type of situation where I'm glad we pack the alt-kill.  Where an older list would likely lose without question, tutoring up Time Vault/Voltaic Key gives at least some feasible escape from the Tyrant sitting across the board.  An uphill battle, but not the impossibility pulling the game out would have been in the past.  Keep in mind some of the most famous Oath creatures are legends, so Karakas can be very useful in some of those matches.  It can also rescue Gaddock, Eight-and-a-Half-Tales (if the build employs him in lieu of Safekeepers for Creature protection), and bounce back Karn and some other creatures that make surprise appearances.

Tails sounds like a good card, I need to work that in.  All you're good ones here are white anyways.

If Tyrant is on the other side of the board, won't they just bounce your Time Vault?  I don't really see the alt-kill as working as an Oath counter, unless you are just SBing out all your creatures.

And as far as Oath goes, I think just SBing 4x Ray of Revelation is your best bet. You can't really do anything against a turn 1 Oath.  The deck is broad enough that Oath and storm are your biggest issues.

[brianpk80]

I would rather just go for normal removal (i.e. STP).  But if you really need them to be creatures, I would just go Thornweald Archer.  Trades with everything except for Hellkite Overlord (since that can regenerate) and when you don't need it to trade it beats for two.  Again, I don't like Bouncer here. Tempo decks shouldn't be making anti-tempo plays.

I looked up that creature and for a deck running green, I must say, you made a good find.  Similarly, there is an artifact bird in Shards of Alara called Tidehollow Strix that may serve a similar function in a Vial variant running black.  I never thought there would be a day in Magic where one could effectively and cheaply Weld a Cockatrice in and out of play.   

If Tyrant is on the other side of the board, won't they just bounce your Time Vault?  I don't really see the alt-kill as working as an Oath counter, unless you are just SBing out all your creatures.

Not usually.  The Tyrant is deadly in a Mox/Orchard/Oath opening.  When it comes into play, the Oath player's standard reaction is to cast something and bounce something.  There won't be a mysterious unlimited supply of instants for the Oath player to bounce repeatedly at that point and usually there is not much mana available for him/her, given that it's only Turn 2.  Bouncing my Moxen doesn't hurt.  In that limited circumstance, I find it's easier to use the opportunity to win through Time Vault/Voltaic key rather than attempting to set up a defense that is destined to fail.   

And as far as Oath goes, I think just SBing 4x Ray of Revelation is your best bet. You can't really do anything against a turn 1 Oath.  The deck is broad enough that Oath and storm are your biggest issues.

It's worth considering.  When Oath/Dragon become prevalent, I tend to use Kami of Ancient Law since he both answers and preempt those enchantments, beats, and recurs with the black Oath.   

[nineisnoone]

I looked up that creature and for a deck running green, I must say, you made a good find.  Similarly, there is an artifact bird in Shards of Alara called Tidehollow Strix that may serve a similar function in a Vial variant running black.  I never thought there would be a day in Magic where one could effectively and cheaply Weld a Cockatrice in and out of play.   

Ahhh, didn't think about that one.  Also didn't think about Welding it into and out of play.   

I should note though that neither answers DSC.

Not usually.  The Tyrant is deadly in a Mox/Orchard/Oath opening.  When it comes into play, the Oath player's standard reaction is to cast something and bounce something.  There won't be a mysterious unlimited supply of instants for the Oath player to bounce repeatedly at that point and usually there is not much mana available for him/her, given that it's only Turn 2.  Bouncing my Moxen doesn't hurt.  In that limited circumstance, I find it's easier to use the opportunity to win through Time Vault/Voltaic key rather than attempting to set up a defense that is destined to fail.

I just don't see that you're going to get the combo off faster then they'll find Oath and win.  If you can do that, then why not just be a combo deck?

Also, I think Tyrant really isn't played all that often without Gush.

It's worth considering.  When Oath/Dragon become prevalent, I tend to use Kami of Ancient Law since he both answers and preempt those enchantments, beats, and recurs with the black Oath.   

I forgot to mention Kami/Unicorn.  The thing is, as far as SB cards are concerned I would rather just SB Ray since it'll always be better when you're SBing in enchantment hate anyways.  Kami/Unicorn are superior maindeck considerations though. 

Another card to throw out there.... Gleeful Sabatoge.  Hits both Oath and artifacts.  You can conspire to hit 2 which is useful to get it past counters and can even turn into a Rack and Ruin against Stacks.

Also... Emerald Charm + Vial. 

My current list...

4   Windswept Heath
4   Polluted Delta
4   Savannah
3   Tundra   
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Emerald
1   Black Lotus   

4   AEther Vial
3   Skullclamp

4   Ethersworn Canonist
4   True Believer
4   Tarmogoyf   
4   Meddling Mage   
3   Gaddock Teeg
4   Plaxmanta
2   Vexing Shusher

1   Time Walk
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Enlightened Tutor
4   Orim's Chant
2   Abeyance

SB:
3   Gleeful Sabotage
4   Emerald Charm
4   Magus of the Unseen
4   Swords to Plowshares

Chant and Abeyance can be pseudo-Time Walks (especially with Cannonist) and give you good answers to storm.  Vexing/Plaxmanta slip under counters (Plaxmanta due to flash) and makes your stuff uncounterable and untargetable.  Enlightened Tutor gets Cannonist (combo), Vial (control), Skullclamp (aggro), and Moxen. 

Charm, Gleeful, Magus, Swords are all great cards.  7 cards hit enchantments.  7 cards hit artifacts. Gleeful can be a Rack and Ruin or just force that Naturalize on an Oath through counters.  Emerald has the bonus of combing nicely with Vial in addition to dealing with Oath.  Magus is a game winning card against many artifact strategies.  STP is just a great card for aggro decks and Tinker -> DSC. 

[brianpk80]

Ahhh, didn't think about that one.  Also didn't think about Welding it into and out of play.   

I should note though that neither answers DSC.

Correct, well noted.  It's a card to consider for general aggro (esp. Tarmogoyf/Master of Etherium), Oath, DSC friends (Titan), and of course those random "Careful Study Reanimate!" piles that show up and may otherwise give Fish a headache.  I suppose on that note its use against Hypnotic Specter should be noted as well.  It seems we never get through the day without someone opening with Ritual Hymn to Tourach and other such malfeasance. 

I just don't see that you're going to get the combo off faster then they'll find Oath and win.  If you can do that, then why not just be a combo deck?

I think the context here is important.  The framework is, "If Oath is running Tyrant and gets its Godhand opening, is it best to set up a defense or dedicate entirely to finding the combo out?"  For that, the answer is the latter.  Running a Voltaic Key and a Time Vault doesn't require converting a Fish deck into TPS. 

Also, I think Tyrant really isn't played all that often without Gush.

That may be true, though Gush is quite silly in an Oath deck whose mana base contains barely any islands compared to most Drain decks. 

I forgot to mention Kami/Unicorn.  The thing is, as far as SB cards are concerned I would rather just SB Ray since it'll always be better when you're SBing in enchantment hate anyways.  Kami/Unicorn are superior maindeck considerations though. 

I won't be running Ray because of the mana base, which has almost no green in it.  But it's a worthwhile consideration for more heavily green builds. 

It might have been me but I am not sure, i changed the list again. Check link in my signature.

I asked if it was you and he said no, but that he was using your deck. 

Another card to throw out there.... Gleeful Sabatoge.  Hits both Oath and artifacts.  You can conspire to hit 2 which is useful to get it past counters and can even turn into a Rack and Ruin against Stacks.

Yes, that would be a good call for a Vial deck with a good dose of green. 

Also, I see you added a decklist later on after I'd seen the original post.  It looks very straightforward and elegant.  At first glance, it seems quite strong.  What are the problem matches you have if any? 

[Guli]

I like your list nineisnoone, but i think you are using way too much anti combo. I always liked Orim main deck especially with vials. But to put in additional abeyance I am not sure about that. While i like those cards i noticed that they don't really serve as a counter to combo IF they play it smart. I see you are running the teeg squad wich is good. I can only say you will destroy combo every game. But the deck will have a hard time dealing with a tutor/tinker game 1. And in game 2 they also side in mass removal cards.

Why do you think i went for the 1 drop Welder? Not just to mess around with artifacts but to stop Tinker.

I have a question about 3x skullclamp. I threw in 4 because i want to draw them and see how they work. Maybe you can explain how 3x is the magic number so I don't need to test lots of games to reach the same conclusion.

I am aware of the existence of Plaxmanta but i never really considered it. He can protect you if you have open mana but only for that turn. I think it should be good in your deck because of so many tempo plays (orim, abeyance, vial) but it won't really protect your creatures to be honest. I can easily cast a removal/bounce EOT and untap bounce your key card and combo off. It is not a permanent solution to the problem. But it works for one turn and that might be enough in your list.

You will have a hard time against not only Tinker but also things like Tarm's and Grunt and generally things with a big body.

Very cool build, my suggestion is to move those STP to maindeck they really work well with orim/mage/teeg you can force them through when it matters. (Tinker, Oath, Fish)

I will also make a post about all the new cool cards brian and nineisnoone mentioned but not now

laterz

Guli

[nineisnoone]

I like your list nineisnoone, but i think you are using way too much anti combo. I always liked Orim main deck especially with vials. But to put in additional abeyance I am not sure about that. While i like those cards i noticed that they don't really serve as a counter to combo IF they play it smart. I see you are running the teeg squad wich is good. I can only say you will destroy combo every game. But the deck will have a hard time dealing with a tutor/tinker game 1.

Why do you think i went for the 1 drop Welder? Not just to mess around with artifacts but to stop Tinker.

You will have a hard time against not only Tinker but also things like Tarm's and Grunt and generally things with a big body.

Very cool build, my suggestion is to move those STP to maindeck they really work well with orim/mage/teeg you can force them through when it matters. (Tinker, Oath, Fish)

STP was originally in the maindeck and then I fiddled around and cut it form the maindeck.  I do like them in the maindeck though, and they are more in the sideboard because I'm trying out some other things (Plax, Vex, & Abey) than any serious unhappiness with them. 

So I totally agree with the points you make, I'm just sort of putting that concern to the side for the moment.

And in game 2 they also side in mass removal cards.

I don't really worry too much about mass removal.  Just know when to push and when to pull back, and you have 'Goyf and Skullclamp to help make it a bit easier.  That being said...

I have a question about 3x skullclamp. I threw in 4 because i want to draw them and see how they work. Maybe you can explain how 3x is the magic number so I don't need to test lots of games to reach the same conclusion.

To be honest, a lot of my influence in building Zoo/Fish lists is based off Chief's Zoo list, which also ran 3x Skullclamp.  I haven't really explored adding the fourth.  3 is usually the number I run when it's a card that I definitely want to see, but prefer not to see it in multiples.  I do not usually double clamp creatures, nor do I run creatures that can sacrifice themselves.  Hence, drawing cards off clamp is more anticipated but not immediate so I'm not really looking to put multiples out on the field. 

If you are in a heavy aggro meta and have a high creature density, I would play 4 because you'll be drawing like crazy off them.  I don't think a fourth would be bad, I've just never felt the need to get that 2nd clamp.

I am aware of the existence of Plaxmanta but i never really considered it. He can protect you if you have open mana but only for that turn. I think it should be good in your deck because of so many tempo plays (orim, abeyance, vial) but it won't really protect your creatures to be honest. I can easily cast a removal/bounce EOT and untap bounce your key card and combo off. It is not a permanent solution to the problem. But it works for one turn and that might be enough in your list.

Plaxmanta has flash, so I can cast it EOT as well.  So if I have Vial or enough mana to just keep  up, it's awesome.  The play isn't Plaxmanta main phase to protect for the remainder of the turn, the play is Plaxmanta in response to Chain of Vapor or whatever.

That being said, I'm not especially fond of it.  Just something I'm testing out....  Currently they are out... for the STPS again.

Also, I see you added a decklist later on after I'd seen the original post.  It looks very straightforward and elegant.  At first glance, it seems quite strong.  What are the problem matches you have if any? 

I am completely ignoring Ichorid, so I doubt I have a good match-up against it. 

With about 15 creatures that can halt storm combo and 4 Chants, the storm combo match is as strong as it could get.  The point in prioritizing combo is because combo can just go over your head and beat you, making your aggro strategy irrelevant.  Opposing aggro decks and control decks can be dealt with in more conventional ways (knowing when to attack, block, extend, withdraw, etc).

Tinker is something that I am, lamentably, neglecting in my main deck.  Normally, I'm a strict advocate of 4x STP if you are running white, but for the moment I decided to just deal with it as a SB issue.  I should have something MD for it.  However, since I hard line against storm it frees me up to feel okay about naming Tinker on Meddling Mage.
EDIT:  Put the STP in the main.

Oath is about as best as can be handled in the SB.  I like that both Charm and Gleeful are not entirely dead outside of being played against Oath.  Charm untapping a Vial also gives you the option of just racing Oath.  Gleeful is great cause they give you creatures.
EDIT: Put the STP in the main

Shop doesn't feel especially relevant, but against Shop Aggro or Smokestacks, clamp helps give inevitability.  Chalice @ 2 can be an issue, but Vial and Shusher good for that. Tangle Wire is the most problematic card in this match-up.  Also, I do run basic lands.  I just never list them as I'm always fiddling with the numbers and colors and such.

Control.  It's difficult to tell, but you have 6 ways to make spells uncounterable and 4 creatures with flash so you should be able to sneak them into play.  Beyond that it's difficult to say.  It's sort of why I like Chant/Abeyance in the main.  It's all about me swinging in for enough damage to make whatever they do completely irrelevant.  If I have a decent board (i.e. 'Goyf+), I'm not at all afraid to Chant/Abeyance on their upkeep and just take another turn to swing at them for damage.  It's not great but it's more than STP would do. 
EDIT: Added 3x In the Eye of Chaos. Pretty solid all around. 

Aggro.  I run ton's of creatures, Skullclamp and I can Chant which can kicker as a Time Walk.  Plaxmanta having flash gives you the quick Vial in ability without needing the Vial which comes in handy.  STP is in the sideboard.
EDIT: Just put them into the main board.

Vault or Painter combos: I have 4x Magus of the Unseen and 3x Gleefuls in the side. The shells for either seem fairly loose, so it's difficult to properly anticipate.  But I don't run much blue so REB isn't that strong, I run True Believer so that holds off Painter, and I run Teeg which can stop Tezz.

EDIT:
Added:
3x In the Eye of Chaos
4x STP

[Guli]

What did you remove for them? Can you post your complete list so we can analyze it?

[nineisnoone]

Sure, I'm still not sure on some of the card choices though.

4   Windswept Heath
4   Polluted Delta
3   Savannah
3   Tundra   
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Emerald
1   Black Lotus   

4   Itcatian Javelineers
4   Ethersworn Canonist
4   True Believer
4   Tarmogoyf   
4   Meddling Mage   
3   Gaddock Teeg
3   Waterfront Bouncer
2   Vexing Shusher
 
4   AEther Vial
3   Skullclamp
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Enlightened Tutor
1   Time Walk
4   Aura of Silence

SIDEBOARD
3   Pithing Needle
4   Swords to Plowshares
4   Orim's Chant
4   Emerald Charm

Vexing is iffy.  I've never really had problems with double green, but especially with the addition of In the Eye of Chaos (which for is just another way to hose ritual storm) in addition to Vial, I'm not sure he really adds much.

STP is kind of a fill in.  Been trying to replace it with tons of stuff.  Whipcorder is one that I'm considering.   2/2 for with  Tap Target creature.   I've also considered a long list of other things like Angelic Shield, Equilibrium, Hunting Grounds... 

EDIT:  Changing this as I go...
Changed Chant's for Javelineer's (Welder and Confidant).... moved Chant's to SB.
Put in Bouncers with Swords in the Sideboard.

Game 1 I can't do anything against turn 1 combo wins on the play.  Game 2 & 3 I have Chant's. 
Javelineers can trade up against Bears and ping the important weaker creatures.  If they play the bigger creatures I have Waterfront and Swords in the sideboard.
Stax I have maindeck Auras, Skullclamp, Vial, and a ton of creatures.  I don't have the artifact hate, but I think there is a natural resistance against those decks.
Oath, I have 4x Aura maindeck and 4x Emerald Charm.
Charm comes in against Oath and whenever I think a control deck will do things like run Moat or opposing 'Goyfs (allow you to untap for blockers or untap Vial).
Needle against random things.

[Guli]

STP is much more than a fill believe me. The only reason I don't use it main deck is because I have the deadly Drake/Bouncer. Don't make any mistake I WILL side in STP as soon as I see a creature on the opposite side. You really need them. Especially if you are running so many low power high quality creatures. Tarm is good but not enough to get rid things like Confidant, Welder, Flying stuff, etc I ALWAYS LIKED STP in main deck, i just feel comfortable enough to put them in side right now. They can go back in any time i would not hesitate to make room. You can dismiss creature protection in this deck because you have more answers than my list. I think it is a good call and a viable strategy. If you don't go for protection just have more answers to the same problem. There is 1 catch though, you can be outplayed and put into top deck and then you are defenseless. And this does happen against control and even against combo. At those times safekeeper buys me the time because it slows them down, makes them waste resources. But with Tarm as a faster clock, a lot of tempo plays and multiple threats you should still beat combo easily.

Abeyance was really too much of the same trick/thing. It can be cool and nice but let's keep it mixed will we. Orim can be very effective but can also be quite dull. Oh well it can always lure out counterspells because they fear something big is coming or you can take a semi-walk. It can't really be a dead card. Remember STP is also very strong with Orim/TeeG/Canonist/Mage(mana drain, negate).

I am not really sure what In the Eye will add to this deck. Against aggro it won't do that much, against stax or dredge I don't see any benefit either. Control and Combo are already favorable. A card like Aura of Silence sounds better. It will maybe not stop the instants but it will stop the mana they need to cast a lot of instants and is very good against Y Will. Plus Aura is nice with canonist. And aura will help a lot against stax. It functions different from Eye but at the end its also a form of disruption and will do a lot damage as well.

Keep the Shusher! It's a great card. Maybe you wan't to play
2 Susher
2 Azorius Mage
This gives you extra creature control and more answers to chalice/stax/vault/grind combo/

[nineisnoone]

Abeyance was really too much of the same trick/thing. It can be cool and nice but let's keep it mixed will we. Orim can be very effective but can also be quite dull. Oh well it can always lure out counterspells because they fear something big is coming or you can take a semi-walk. It can't really be a dead card. Remember STP is also very strong with Orim/TeeG/Canonist/Mage(mana drain, negate).

Yeah.  Abeyance was sort of unnecessary.  I just threw it in there because I discovered my love of Orim.  Like you said, Orim is never dead, which I like.  It's never really an amazing play, but it's always a solid one.  Which is something I feel I need, since my deck is basically an aggro anti-combo deck rather than a toolbox of answers.  So the remainder of my deck needs to have utility across the board. 

I am not really sure what In the Eye will add to this deck. Against aggro it won't do that much, against stax or dredge I don't see any benefit either. Control and Combo are already favorable. A card like Aura of Silence sounds better. It will maybe not stop the instants but it will stop the mana they need to cast a lot of instants and is very good against Y Will. Plus Aura is nice with canonist. And aura will help a lot against stax. It functions different from Eye but at the end its also a form of disruption and will do a lot damage as well.

Good suggestion.  I hadn't thought of that card.  It especially good against Oath as well since you can play it preemptively to slow them getting it down and destroy the Oath that they eventually do get down.  It hits 2 TPS bombs, Black Lotus, and indirectly hits the Chain/Recall/Rebuild storm routes.  It still doesn't do anything against aggro or dredge though.  But nothing really hits everything. 

On second thought, most Fish variant run either Vial, Null Rod or Standstill.  So barring a goblins deck and maybe some varieties of TMWA or something like that, it hits that match-up as well.  Excellent card...

Tentative changes...
-4 STP of +4 Aura of Silence
-3 In the Eye of Chaos for +1 Skullclamp, +2 Bant Charm.

STP will likely be in the SB with Emerald Charm... what else, I'm not sure.

[Guli]

Tentative changes...
-4 STP of +4 Aura of Silence
-3 In the Eye of Chaos for +1 Skullclamp, +2 Bant Charm.

STP will likely be in the SB with Emerald Charm... what else, I'm not sure.

I would do +3 Aura of Silence and -3 Eye of Chaos and keep the STP main deck, this deck needs them! And if they are dead, then you are playing combo or some other deck that will be hurt by more than enough cards in your deck. Aura will hit aggro/shop too! And that new Master of Etherium. Btw with so many artifacts Master of Etherium doesn't sound bad at all does he? Not suggesting it though because Tarm is usually bigger.

[nineisnoone]

I would do +3 Aura of Silence and -3 Eye of Chaos and keep the STP main deck, this deck needs them! And if they are dead, then you are playing combo or some other deck that will be hurt by more than enough cards in your deck. Aura will hit aggro/shop too! And that new Master of Etherium. Btw with so many artifacts Master of Etherium doesn't sound bad at all does he? Not suggesting it though because Tarm is usually bigger.

My thought on 4x Aura is that since I don't run any other mana denial elements, if it plays out too late, they can often just pay the added costs.  Plus it's strictly asymmetric and drawing the 2nd can allow you to sacrifice the first to deal with something that got through.

lol.  Yeah, I should just keep the 4x STPs in the maindeck and stopping being silly about that.  I'm not sure whether I want to have the 3x Skullclamp or Enlightened Tutor.  I could see myself cutting to 2x Skullclamp since I can Tutor it.  Maybe I'll just go down to 3x Believers.

[brianpk80]

Shop doesn't feel especially relevant, but against Shop Aggro or Smokestacks, clamp helps give inevitability.  Chalice @ 2 can be an issue, but Vial and Shusher good for that. Tangle Wire is the most problematic card in this match-up.  Also, I do run basic lands.  I just never list them as I'm always fiddling with the numbers and colors and such.

Thank you for taking the time to explain the different match interactions.  I'm with you on Tangle Wire.  When I played Meddling Mages, Tangle Wire and Triskelion were the only cards I routinely named against Stax.  If it was 5 color stax, occasionally, I would name Balance or Tinker. 

Control.  It's difficult to tell, but you have 6 ways to make spells uncounterable and 4 creatures with flash so you should be able to sneak them into play.  Beyond that it's difficult to say.  It's sort of why I like Chant/Abeyance in the main.  It's all about me swinging in for enough damage to make whatever they do completely irrelevant.  If I have a decent board (i.e. 'Goyf+), I'm not at all afraid to Chant/Abeyance on their upkeep and just take another turn to swing at them for damage.  It's not great but it's more than STP would do. 
EDIT: Added 3x In the Eye of Chaos. Pretty solid all around. 

Getting creatures through is important--the thing about control these days though is that it tends to pack some sort of explosive kill.  Generally I think if you can stay alive, you should win inevitably.  Vial Fish grows increasingly stronger as the game progresses, which distinguishes it from other types of Fish that are instead more reliant on early windows of opportunity to stunt opponent's development. 

3 In the Eye of Chaos may be excessive, especially with the Drain-baiting casting cost, non-creature status, and non-cumulative effect, since it's an Enchant World.  On the bright side, it will kill The Abyss, Nether Void, and Concordant Crossroads, if they ever randomly show up.   

Whipcorder is one that I'm considering.   2/2 for with  Tap Target creature.   

For combat control of the tapping type, I think either Azorius Guildmage or Stormscape Apprentice (same ability, but 1/1 for ) would work nicely.

I've also considered a long list of other things like Angelic Shield, Equilibrium, Hunting Grounds... 

I forgot about Hunting Grounds.  Hmmm...

In general, Vial Fish works best when it gives extreme bias to any function that can be accomplished with a creature of CMC 1 or CMC 2.  I've had the misfortune of experimenting with a lot of different things, and adding 3 casting-cost creatures was a disaster. 

I've been updating my Fishes for the Shards environment, and here's what I'm working with now.  Some tweaks can still be made and suggestions are welcome.

Velvet Rope (named after the red splash and the namesake rope used to keep undesirables out of clubs--many Fish applied to party here, but just as many were turned away at the door)

Land
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Glimmervoid
1 City of Brass
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifact Mana
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring

Vials
4 AEther Vial

Non-creature Draw/Search
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Oath of Ghouls
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Non-creature Disruption
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Counterbalance

Draw Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
1 Ninja of the Deep Hours

Combo Team
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Children of Korlis

Artifact Team
2 Goblin Welder
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Stern Proctor (enchantments also)

Aggro Team
2 Azorius Guildmage (also for activated abilities, Helm, Grindstone, Time Vault, Wasteland, Pernicious, etc.)
1 Waterfront Bouncer
1 Serra Avenger
1 Jotun Grunt

Alt-Win
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

Sideboard
3 Kami of Ancient Law (Oath, Dragon, Back to Basics/Energy Flux)
2 Orim's Chant (Combo)
1 Gaea's Blessing (Painter, grrr...)
1 Angelic Curator (a 1{W} flying spirit with protection from artifacts, possible swap with the new Weldable Cockatrice Bird)
1 Tormod's Crypt (a third one, sickening post-sideboard w. Welder v. Ichorid)
1 Chalice of the Void (primarily for Painter, Chalice @ 1.  Also combo)
1 Pithing Needle (lots of things)
1 Grim Lavamancer (Fish, Welders, considering adding a second)
1 Counterbalance (Combo, Control)
1 Tarmogoyf (Aggro)
1 Echoing Truth
1 Goblin Vandal (Stax and Null Rod Fish)

It may look a bit random and not every choice is perfect, but everything works together in a subtle way.  It's not the best deck in the universe but it's a well balanced Vial Fish list that has a pretty broad scope of threats it's prepared to deal with.  I still stick with the diversity of methods, unity of purpose approach when picking Fish.  I prefer cumulative effects to redundant ones.  There's a Sol Ring included here, which I ususally don't run in Fish but this list is homemade for it.  The full Moxen suite + Sol Ring and Academy help ensure relevant turn 1 plays and power out reliable Azorius defenses and Gorilla Shamans.  Counterbalance is somewhat experimental, but the reason it's here for now isn't just because there is a Sensei, but because everything here is either 0, 1, or 2 casting cost, so CB is consistently a Chalice for 0, 1, or 2.  Not having FoW or random bombs at CMC 3 or more makes Counterbalance a lot more reliable. 

Jotun Grunt, Serra Avenger, Waterfront Bouncer, and Stern Proctor are the "robots" of the deck.  They're the things you're not thrilled to see in the opening hand, but as the game goes on, I am very glad they are in there. 

Like Bomberman, it can play any of a trio of roles, aggro, control, or combo.  It's not as fierce on the combo side, but has a much stronger aggro base.  Worst match-ups are Painter and Tyrant Oath pre-sideboard.  TPS was very rough in the past, but that was in an earlier iteration.  Adding Gaddocks, another Crypt, and Children has of course helped. 

The mana base was tricky to set up, and I'm happy with everything except that there are no green fetch targets.  The only card that uses green maindeck is Gaddock, and there are 10 different ways of playing him (3 Glimmer, 1 City, 1 Lotus, 1 Emerald, 4 Vial) and it's not been problematic.

Glimmervoid and Academy are very strong here.  I had experimented with Thran Quarry years ago, which seems like the better choice intuitively, but I was always losing them due to creature bounce or counterings.  I rarely have that problem with Glimmervoid and the no-life-loss color fixing is very convenient.  In many ways, it's a bit representative of Fish and 5 color Stax continuing to borrow themes from one another.  Perhaps they'll merge further in the future. 

[nineisnoone]

Getting creatures through is important--the thing about control these days though is that it tends to pack some sort of explosive kill.  Generally I think if you can stay alive, you should win inevitably.  Vial Fish grows increasingly stronger as the game progresses, which distinguishes it from other types of Fish that are instead more reliant on early windows of opportunity to stunt opponent's development.

Yeah.  I mean usually aggro has a natural advantage against permission based control just by nature.  Addressing their actually win is kinda tricky since it can vary so much.  Sometimes I like Emerald Charm for that reason as you can just race it by untapping Vial or if their plan is to play Propaganda or Moat you can solve that too.  Plus on the odd occasion they might have a man plan, and you can untap for a block.  Other times you need the artifact hate for the Time Vault.  Or Swords for DSC. 

Hmm... That actually sounds like something Azorious would work well against.  For 3 mana, it stops both combos and occupies a DSC.... 

It's an Enchant World.  On the bright side, it will kill The Abyss, Nether Void, and Concordant Crossroads, if they ever randomly show up.   

lol.  Is that how that works?  I ended up pulling the card fairly quickly so I never knew what the "enchant world" bit meant. 

Velvet Rope

Very interesting deck.  My main concern would be Null Rod.  Running full Moxen, Time Vault, Vial, Top, you get hit by it worse than most decks.  Is Gorilla Shaman really that much better than Goblin Tinkerer?  Tinkerer hits any artifact, for only 1 more mana to play, and less on all non-Moxen for the activation cost.  It can't hit multiple Moxen a turn like Gorilla Shaman, but it'll eventually take them all down.  Plus, at 2 you get to Vial it.  There is also Hearth Kami, but I think the extra power is only notable if you take a more aggressive edge (i.e. Tarmogoyf) then you do here.

And BW but no Tidehollow Sculler? 

[brianpk80]

Hmm... That actually sounds like something Azorious would work well against.  For 3 mana, it stops both combos and occupies a DSC.... 

Azorius is highly versatile and is an MVP in every match save Storm combo and Tyrant Oath.  That's a lot of matches leftover.   

lol.  Is that how that works?  I ended up pulling the card fairly quickly so I never knew what the "enchant world" bit meant. 

I learned all of the pre 6E rules by heart, and prior to 6E, that is how Enchant Worlds worked.  The new one would replace the old one.  I think this principle has held through the 6E rules and subsequent updates. 

Very interesting deck.  My main concern would be Null Rod.  Running full Moxen, Time Vault, Vial, Top, you get hit by it worse than most decks. 

It is hit by Null Rod more than most Fish decks, definitely.  That's not to say that it's fatal though.  Null Rod Fish tends to have a lower density of creatures than Vial Fish so provided I can hardcast the critters, I have a volume advantage.  If they manage to Waste everything, lay a Rod, and I don't have something good in play like Dark Confidant, then that is a struggle.  Post sideboard, I tend to see a lot of artifact hate, so I will take out Vault, Key, Tormod's and Ethersworns, and replace with Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Vandal, Tamogoyf, Echoing Truth, Chalice of the Void (for Chalice @ 1), and Kamis for more beaters. 

Is Gorilla Shaman really that much better than Goblin Tinkerer? 

I think so, because of the lower CC and lack of summoning sickness interfering with the ability.  For bigger non-DSC artifacts, my favorite is Goblin Vandal.  I'm not fond of Hearth Kami because he only hits 1 artifact.  Gorilla has a tendency to sneak out of a Vial @ 1 and frequently wipe out an opponent's board.  He is quite good. 

And BW but no Tidehollow Sculler? 

I tried it and it's a pretty good card, but when push came to shove, it was one of the creatures I sacrificed to make room for the ones there.  He's definitely in the waiting room though, so to speak. 

[nineisnoone]

I think so, because of the lower CC and lack of summoning sickness interfering with the ability.  For bigger non-DSC artifacts, my favorite is Goblin Vandal.  I'm not fond of Hearth Kami because he only hits 1 artifact.  Gorilla has a tendency to sneak out of a Vial @ 1 and frequently wipe out an opponent's board.  He is quite good.

Well, the main advantage I was thinking with him is that he can hit Null Rod and other artifacts.  I have always felt that mana denial is weak if it's not supported through the deck.  But I can see the Gorillia Shaman, especially if you run him in lower numbers.  Vandal is an option, but getting through can potentially be an issue.

On a side note, I've decided to replace my Swords to Plowshares with Waterfront Bouncers.  This was after I realized that I could bonce my own creatures against aggro decks, which on blocks can end up as a 1-for-1 rather than just be a card disadvantage speed bump against aggro.  That and it's presence on the board beats both Oath and Tinker won me over.

[brianpk80]

Well, the main advantage I was thinking with him is that he can hit Null Rod and other artifacts.  I have always felt that mana denial is weak if it's not supported through the deck.  But I can see the Gorillia Shaman, especially if you run him in lower numbers.  Vandal is an option, but getting through can potentially be an issue.

Ah, he does hit Null Rod fairly frequently though.  It doesn't always pan out as planned but the deck has a lot of mana set aside for activation costs of Gorilla and Azoirus; they've been accounted for.  Gorilla is the best 1-drop in the deck, IMO.  A smidgen better than Welder.  He also kills Grindstones, Voltaic Keys, and not too seldom Time Vaults as well.  I pick Gorilla since he's the quickest, the easiest to cast, and has the most potential for card/board advantage. 

On a side note, I've decided to replace my Swords to Plowshares with Waterfront Bouncers.  This was after I realized that I could bonce my own creatures against aggro decks, which on blocks can end up as a 1-for-1 rather than just be a card disadvantage speed bump against aggro.  That and it's presence on the board beats both Oath and Tinker won me over.

Bouncer is very very good.  He's also able to end the Dragon combo in your favor.  It helps to have your answer to Tinker be flash/uncounterable as well w. Vial @ 2.

[Guli]

I have solved all the problems you guys stated by adding 2 special op teams trained to destroy:
1) Artifacts
2) Creatures

1) Welder+Shaman
2) Drake+Bouncer

The goal is to get rid of permanents but the effect is card advantage. If you lack a draw engine you have to compensate this by destroying or stealing or neutralizing their cards (their card advantage). It is not meant to be mana denial but as card advantage. A card that eats cards on the other side of the board is very good. Nobody really anticipates a Shaman when happily dropping their moxes. Without welder the null rod can be a big sandwich but i have eaten rod's and it was tasty. Shaman is a good choice when you don't go for mana denial but still want effective counter play against tempo (mox=tempo). Another thing is that Canonist and Shaman act very synergistic. People usually think that when they see an active Canonist the least they can do is play out their moxes because then they feel like they are doing something. But that can be very risky when i deliberately wait with my monkey and lure their moxes into play. Those moxes are not coming back. They are in the digestion system of the monkey. Well they might come back but it might be smelly and they won't produce mana.

Bouncer is a very powerful card when he is on line and able to tap. It doesn't matter if he is kind of a dead card against combo, then he becomes clampfood which is very important as well. You NEED dead cards to clamp away. Against aggro I can cycle almost everything until i get a drake and bouncer. I ll keep safekeeper most of the time though to stop spot removal.

Did you also see the synergy between Canonist and Bouncer against a non artifact aggro? Well nobody really plays without artifacts in aggro these days so that might be less relevant. But still it is pretty decent.