[Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays - TPS Report

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/16714_So_Many_Insane_Plays_About_Those_TPS_Reports_Did_You_Get_The_Memo.html

Monday, November 17th - Today’s So Many Insane Plays sees Vintage Master Stephen Menendian in fine form. He takes his TPS deck to a local tournament in the quest to pick up some jewelry… his report is typically intense, intricate, and illuminating.

[Clint_NZ]

Cheers Steve that was a good read.

I find it funny that you are so scared of the ichorid matchup (with good reason) and then come across Jerry and
his concoction, completely wrecking your post board plan.

Well it was good to see you don't just write about your victories, and take your beats when they come.

Cheers
Clint

[Xyre]

Well it was good to see you don't just write about your victories, and take your beats when they come.

True. But you took it a step further and made those enlightening and entertaining, which is very laudable. The story about trying to deck the Workshop deck put a smile on my face. Nicely done.

[Purple Hat]

steve,
Unless I'm reading the oracle text wrong or SCG has it wrong:

Oracle text: X, T Target opponent puts cards from the top of his or her library into his or her graveyard until a creature card or X cards are put into that graveyard this way, whichever comes first. If a creature card is put into that graveyard this way, sacrifice Helm of Obedience and put that card into play under your control. X can't be 0.

Helm of obedience doesn't work like that.  if he pays 1 to helm he mills you for 1, if it's a creature he sac's helm and gets the creature, if it's not the effect ends....if you'd just let him helm you for 1 you could have played bargain and won the game.  why did you scoop?

[Webster]

steve,
Unless I'm reading the oracle text wrong or SCG has it wrong:

Oracle text: X, T Target opponent puts cards from the top of his or her library into his or her graveyard until a creature card or X cards are put into that graveyard this way, whichever comes first. If a creature card is put into that graveyard this way, sacrifice Helm of Obedience and put that card into play under your control. X can't be 0.

Helm of obedience doesn't work like that.  if he pays 1 to helm he mills you for 1, if it's a creature he sac's helm and gets the creature, if it's not the effect ends....if you'd just let him helm you for 1 you could have played bargain and won the game.  why did you scoop?

Leyline's replacement effect removes the cards from the game instead of putting them into the owner's graveyard. No creature card or X cards are ever put into the graveyard, and thus, helm mills the entire deck.

Helm of Obedience:

,  : Target opponent puts cards from the top of his or her library into his or her graveyard until a creature card or X cards are put into that graveyard this way, whichever comes first. If a creature card is put into that graveyard this way, sacrifice Helm of Obedience and put that card into play under your control. X can't be 0.

Leyline of the Void:

If Leyline of the Void is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it in play.
If a card would be put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere, remove it from the game instead.

[theLastGnu]

Is there an official ruling on whether or not that results in a game tie?

As I understand it, it's an optional loop but not in the sense that I know other infinite loops capable of drawing a game (e.g. WGD)

[Purple Hat]

the dragon loop isn't optional.  The optional parts are digging and generating mana which ultimately leads to winning the game or having a creature in your yard to switch the animate target to.  A draw only results if there's no creature in either yard.

interesting interaction with leyline and helm...never would have occured to me.

[Smmenen]

Well it was good to see you don't just write about your victories, and take your beats when they come.

True. But you took it a step further and made those enlightening and entertaining, which is very laudable. The story about trying to deck the Workshop deck put a smile on my face. Nicely done.

Glad you enjoyed it

[swawagon]

I had not cast Yawgmoth's Bargain in many many, many games. It was countered, using many cards (Rituals, Moxen) to cast it. It was uncastable (Stax Spheres, Null Rod). Or not useful due to a too low life total (Tarmogoyf, Canonist beatdown). I was hating Yawgmoth's Bargain. Then switched it for a lone Night's Whisper and have not looked back.

I love Mind's Desire as getting to 6 mana was usually adding storm as well as the mana to cast it and once cast (uncounterablebly save Stifle) with Mind's Desire you have something. Bargain was a huge mana and card investment that was not pulling it's weight short of a very few broken instances. Whisper makes the deck so much more linear and it is rarely stuck in your hand.

Otherwise I have kept Steve's list card for card, including Fact or Fiction over a second Grim, and am liking the deck much more.

-YAWGMOTH'S BARGAIN +NIGHT'S WHISPER
-Situational bomb +Simple draw

Blasphemy? Preference?

[Webster]

I had not cast Yawgmoth's Bargain in many many, many games. It was countered, using many cards (Rituals, Moxen) to cast it. It was uncastable (Stax Spheres, Null Rod). Or not useful due to a too low life total (Tarmogoyf, Canonist beatdown). I was hating Yawgmoth's Bargain. Then switched it for a lone Night's Whisper and have not looked back.

I love Mind's Desire as getting to 6 mana was usually adding storm as well as the mana to cast it and once cast (uncounterablebly save Stifle) with Mind's Desire you have something. Bargain was a huge mana and card investment that was not pulling it's weight short of a very few broken instances. Whisper makes the deck so much more linear and it is rarely stuck in your hand.

Otherwise I have kept Steve's list card for card, including Fact or Fiction over a second Grim, and am liking the deck much more.

-YAWGMOTH'S BARGAIN +NIGHT'S WHISPER
-Situational bomb +Simple draw

Blasphemy? Preference?

I would never ever cut bargain.

AMEN.

[M.Solymossy]

I never played Bargain in Bob Tendrils.
I always played Bargain in TPS.
I hate it every time I play it if it's not turn 1 or 2.
I hate seeing it in my hand every time.
NEVER CUT IT FROM TPS.

[Smmenen]

I hate it every time I play it if it's not turn 1 or 2.

You are probably not playing TPS right then.   Bargain should be good on turn 20. 

[swawagon]

I hate it every time I play it if it's not turn 1 or 2.

You are probably not playing TPS right then.   Bargain should be good on turn 20. 

In my experience It's not. I'm playing against a lot of Fish decks and every one pecks away at life fast enough that the games will never get to turn 20. You Tendril's them off or die by turn 10.

I've also been playing with an Ad Nauseum deck (Spookies) a lot and there I understand you go for broke, get to 5 mana as soon as possible, cast your Nauseum and win...

I'm not a master at TPS, but learning, but I understand it's much more controlling. Duress, and Force to stretch a game out. Outdraw your opponent with your bombs. Use life a resource to buy time.
What I'm not liking with Bargain is that the meta has the high number or Null Rods, Tarmogoyf, and or Mana Leaks.

Yawgmoth's Bargain: dead black card you cannot cast, nor pitch to Force of Will.
or: drop a Mox, cast a Dark Ritual, put Bargain in your Graveyard for 4BB.

I guess one question when playing TPS is do you cast Duress as soon as you can? Or hold it to cast in conjunction with your bomb to assuredly clear the path?

Would you pull Bargain games 2-3 against BUG Fish? How does TPS beat that deck in general? My TPS experience cannot beat my UR Fish list much either.

I know Bargain is glorius. I've had busted plays and drawn more cards with Bargain than ought to be legal, but lately I'm not liking it for reasons I've stated. If you can get it down against Drain Tez lists yes, obviously it's amazing. No card per successful cast has drawn me more cards (save Ad Nauseam, maybe) than Yawgmoth's Bargain. But it's the card I was hating to see the most lately especially in Fish match-ups and I chose to point that out and see if anyone else is sharing in that experience. ?

My tone is intended to be more inquisitive and playful, than argumentative.

[Smmenen]

My basic rule for Bargain is that it is good so long as you will untap after playing it with at least as much life available to draw 7 cards.   So, if your opponent has 3 power worth of toughness on the table, and you just play Bargain, and you are at 11 life.  You'll attack me, I'll untap with Bargain in play, and draw7 myself.   So, as a general rule, Bargain is good enough so long as I have 8 life and full board mana. 

I've beaten Fish every time I've played it with TPS, not close most of the time. 

Here are a few reasons why:

1) I use 4 basic lands, and I fetch them when my opponent does not have Stifle available.   Once I get out all four basics, I have an invincible mana base. 

Post board, I bring even more basic lands in. 

It's this mana base that allows you to ignore Cursecatcher, or at least, play around it.   Sometimes, though, you'll have to play into it. 

2) I ignore Null Rod.   I pretend like I'm already cut off from my artifacts accelleration.

TPS, unlike other Vintage decks, does not need to rely on artifact mana to win.   That's why you have so many Dark Rituals.   I also use Academy like a blue ritual when Null Rod is on board.

Decks like Tez can't do that.

3) I use my life as a resource.  The truth is that even BUG fish is not that fast unless it has drawn a Goyf.   If it has, that's one less disruption spell aimed at your head.   

I use that time to build up resources and play TPS like a control deck.

4)Tinker.   Easy to set up, easy to pull off, difficult for them to stop.   

If that fails

5) Rebuild/Chain of Vapor --> anything for the win. 

Also not hard to set up or pull off. 

[swawagon]

Thanks Steve,
With TPS, Tinker - Colossus against most Fish decks certainly works pretty well. It's still not plan A, but I'll 'digress' into it more quickly against Fish than other match-ups.

12 lands, 3 Wastable, 5 fetchies. I think to say Null Rod can be ignored is tough. I agree more basics from the board are about the best cards against anything with Nulls and Wastes. For instance would Bargain be one of the cards cut for more basics?

Back to Bargain, Null Rod makes casting Bargain highly improbably cast in time for it to matter. Tarmos are just too big and down too easily. I know you say BUG Fish isn't that fast, but it's pretty fast.

I'd really like to see TPS beat up on BUG fish, but It's just a thrashing the other way for me, especially game one. UR Fish and BUG Fish are serious problems. Mmmm I'm not sure where to go from here.

[Webster]

Bargain is too broken to cut. There are other slots to play around with, but not Bargain's.


Period.

[Smmenen]

12 lands, 3 Wastable, 5 fetchies. I think to say Null Rod can be ignored is tough.

I sideboard out off color moxen for lands. 

EDIT:

What do you need moxen to play aside from Will and Desire?   If you have Tolarian, you don't even need to tap the moxen.  you just storm them out, play Tolarian, and cast Desire.   

You can play most, if not all, of your spells off Rituals and basic lands. 

[swawagon]

1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Rebuild
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mind’s Desire
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

Are all significantly helped by Artifact mana, Especially Gifts and Fact. I know what you are saying though, yes casting costs are generally low. Perhaps I'm keeping too many one land, two Mox/Crypt/Vault/Sol hands?

How do you feel about Night's Whisper?

[hauntedechos]

I hope that I am not speaking out of turn here.

On Nights Whispers:  I've found them to be my replacement for Grim tutors, where I do not own any and don't know when I ever will.  They provide cheap draw and they help things along for me.  That said, I've found them to strangely make a TPS list more dependant on Yawg's Will.  Has anyone else got an opinion on this matter.

Haunted.

[swawagon]

All right I'll concede Steve is right. (big surprise) Yawgmoth's Bargain is still a huge bomb that belongs in TPS... Even if it gets cut in some games 2-3, and can potentially be dead. I had a game where I turn one Desired for 3 and flipped the Bargain and then remembered why it was so good!!

However I still do not understand how TPS can beat BUG Fish?... It is a horrible matchup for me no matter what I do.

And Night's Whisper is still good in TPS I just don't know where it fits in... I saw the tourney report on another thread about 3 in the board... Seems OK...?

[Dr.KnowMaD]

2) I ignore Null Rod.   I pretend like I'm already cut off from my artifacts accelleration.

TPS, unlike other Vintage decks, does not need to rely on artifact mana to win.   That's why you have so many Dark Rituals.   I also use Academy like a blue ritual when Null Rod is on board.

4)Tinker.   Easy to set up, easy to pull off, difficult for them to stop.   

If that fails

5) Rebuild/Chain of Vapor --> anything for the win. 

Also not hard to set up or pull off. 

The first two (#2&4) are the reason I advocate the use of Sphere tech over rods against Storm.

The last one (#5) is why I play Storm 


                                                                                                                                                              Dr.KnowMaD

[mr.grim]

i used whispers for a bit and i have found them to be good. i do still want the tutor power of grim and all but that raw draw,which a vintage players sets up 8 out of ten times, does really work.
I do see what you mean about the need and want for will more.
as for bargin ,well its the soda in a desert for sure.