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garathiel
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« on: December 03, 2008, 09:45:39 pm » |
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hi this is my list of a Fish UR version that is doing well in ITALY ...in very similar builds it's making many TOP8 ( Finals too ) in 50+ people tournaments.
Personally I won 2 P9 , a Library with FishUR and i think to be a good tester for this arktype.
Amadio Alessandro aka Garathiel - DCI 1204665721
Stutter Fish
Maindeck (60):
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Mutavault
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
22
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4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Gorilla Shaman
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Sage of Epityr
2 Cloud of Faeries
4 SpellStutter sprite
16
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4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Spell Snare
12
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3 Fire-Ice
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of vapor
5
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1 Brainstorm
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
5
tot 60
SideBoard
2 Relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt
2 energy flux
3 ingot chewer
1 smash to smithreens
1 hurkyl's recall
2 red elemental blast
1 spell snare
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Here some good replyes:
1@Omnistrife@ Hi!I saw your meta in morphling.de and i discuss with my friends that is full of oath °_° ... crazy!!!
I have tested my oath matchup with a guy that have 1800+ DCI points (so i guess is a valid tester) and we found that the game is very 50/50 in the 1° game a bit more % for us post side... This because the protection pool of this deck is very valid:
4force
3daze
3stifle
2snare
(4 spellstutter)
+1snare 2reb postside that take the place of 2sage of epityr and 1grim lavamancer.
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12+4 preside
15+4 postside
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Those are quite landstill numbers of protections...but the very important thing is that we could reach a point to control the game...not only put some 1/1 and ninja ad have 1-2 force/misdi backup...here we have a good pool to remain mana open and try to control the game...i found that this is possible and i didn't need cards like calice & rod ... but for a fast storm meta i could pick 2 pillar in side , to get some advantage.( But the matchup is very close to 50/50 even without it)
Instead of usually fish , here we don't have dead draws , only active spells Protections/creatures/Boardcontrol ... and for have a storic comprehension of the deck ... before this list we played 1misdirection & 3° bounce spell ... now we switch the 2 with merchant scroll & mystical tutor to get closer to a more control list ...( virtually with 3f/ice 2bounce 2tutors if we have a ninja in play we don't be afraid of a fast colossus too , we could found a solution)
But if your meta is full of oath that's not a bad thing ... u could use Annul / goblin bombardment in your sideboard ... the potential of fish is that is very very versatile to every field.
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Tarmogoyf & Grunts are big guys , we have some problem with them if we don't reach to put in play our ninja ... if we have ninja we would have much problems with it ... we could tap it and go in advantage with ninja and put every turn a chump blocker , or go to bounce and backup counter...we could do a usually cloud of faeries/stutter@2 on second turn or spell snare(3x with the side)...or making mana denial to the green land with stifles & wastes ... for grunt is more complicated but with grim+fire we have a good matchup with fishUW so we could play around it.
And finally 1/1 with jitte is the best solutions for them Very Happy i think ... i think that we don't need others card in the sideboard to manage them , in some matchups ( control with tarmogoyf/ak/drain/yawghmot that is very popular here in italy) we put inside 2x relic too ... and goyf slow us a bit but we could play well around him.
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Prometheon@ 22 mana without brainstorm and the need to reach 3 mana in play for playing stutter+stifle/reb/snare ... after some wastes ... convince me that 2 sage of epityr are the minimum to play.
He reduces mulligans and as OmniStrife had say ... filter cards to draw ... and more ... we don't use nullrod , so a cursecatcher is usefull only on first turn ( and i don't have slots to take 3-4x of them) and if we do a good manadenial with gorilla & wastes &stifles ... but there i think a cursecatcher is only a more winner.
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Moxlotus@NullRods - Pillar - Misdirection - Calice ... are protections of the old style fish that i dislike ... now i'm trying to go in a new way of aggrocontrol where we don't need to make them asymmetrik , i wan't no dead draws and only spell that make play or protections.
I'm not saying its a bad card ... only that playing spellstutter as critters & counter instead of rod/calice we gain a good counter pool of cards.
Here in Italy many fishUR are playing like that with good results ... but if u like rods too much , u could found 2 slot for a 2x of it ... sure not more.
2 umezawa's jitte
2@ Hi breed!
Choose the right number of manlands was a little difficult ... but after many testing I learn that I was attaking very few times with mishra , more often I stayed mana open for spellstutter+stifle with a mishra and 2 island in the field...that makes mishra useless , and mutavault a good resource.
So I don't need that extra 1 in defence of mishra or the possibility to give a +1/+1 each other for the attak phase,with grim/fire/spellsnare/stifle i found the aggrocontrol matchup easy , and with jitte in sideboard we could manage a goblin...( with many problems but we could)
To reduce the possibility to draw multiple copies of mutavault I cut the number of manlands to 2 ... making the manabase more solid .( Without renunce to library)
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Another reason is becouse the cut of brainstorm/ponder-s after the restriction...increase the medium mana-cost of control/combo decks...so using only 2cloud of faeries to support spellstutters is not enough...drawing a mutavault makes much easier to protect the deck from yawgmoth's and tinkers ... that could be problematic. ( Thirst of knowledge/Twister as well )
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To my side I could say that I tryied many configurations ...
2mutavault 1mishra's factory
3mishra's factory
2mishra's factory 1mutavault
3mutavault
All with and without Library...but I think that 2Mutavault and 1Library is the best choice Very Happy
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Happy to have explained a good part of the deck Wink ! see ya!
3@Oath -> 45% preside - 47.5% postSide
We have snare and good counters to slow him , but our finishers are little creatures so the math would never be so positive ... but even not bat at all.
AKcontrol combo -> 65%preside - 60%postside
We have manadenial , hard counters like reb & spellsnare , and ninjas make the match problematic for him...merchant/mystical/chain/echoing/ice are good solutions to a tinker->bigOne.
Combo -> 55%preside - 47.5% postside
Stifles & spellstutter could make big problems for the 1st match.
Post side our surprise effect is vanished , if he have a good sideboard we must see the right cards to reach a good manadenial...if u can't ... go for fast ninja hoping your hopponent don't have too much forces to protect his bombs.
Artifact -> 40% preside - 65% postside
not good if he start in the 1st match , but postside we have many slots ... an easy match if u have done some tests with this arktype.
U need to know the hand to mulligan , counter & destroy only the right thing.
Manaless-> Hope to have a wasteland->preside / 60% postside
Hope for wasteland/daze/stifle preside...
Go for relic/ingot/wasteland in the second...
4@Breed@ Thank u for testing my list , hope u comment your results and post your feeling with the deck after. Very Happy
Bongo@I tried 2x Standstill in the place of Mystical tutor & Merchant Schroll to backup the draw engine ... and i don't like it very much ... we only have 2 man lands and few critters , If u like u need a draw cards u could replace a card in the list for 1xGush !!! It equilibrate the loss of the 2° grim lavamancer ... we gain manabase solidity in the mirror match ... with reb postside we could go for Nolook draw searching for counters with mana in pool...and its synergic with library/mystical tutor/sage of epityr...i like it.
With the Gush i think u could cut 1x wasteland to take a lotus petal or a manacrypt ( ninja , jitte , energy flux ... it works!!!) and make the deck more aggressive.
EDIT <- A first version of the list played 4standstill 4manlands(2muta2mishra) 2ninja , no tutors ... but it was before the last litation of brainstorm & ponder , where a spellstutter was countering every spell in the field ^^'... now the manacost is rised and we must try to accelerate the beat down...without loosing the control. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Enjoy!!!
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« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 02:25:44 pm by garathiel »
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OmniStrife_101
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« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2008, 10:13:41 pm » |
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How is your Oath matchup?
The reason I am asking is because Oath was one of the main reasons why U/R Fish died slowly in our meta here in the Philippines. The lack of a strong creature removal and clock rendered the old build (not sure ofcourse about the updated one) dead.
any chance of including Magus of the Moon main deck? or was this considered but did not make the cut?
When facing decks with Tarmogoyf and Jotun Grunt, U/R Fish losses most of the time, but how are you handling these match ups? I am sure that these cards would'nt hit the table because of your disruption pieces but if they do, you'd have a hard time right?
your thoughts...
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Prometheon
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« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2008, 10:32:53 pm » |
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Isn't Cursecatcher a lot better than Sage?
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OmniStrife_101
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« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2008, 11:00:27 pm » |
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Isn't Cursecatcher a lot better than Sage?
I think Sage's slot is for filtering cards to draw rather than disrupt. |
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Moxlotus
Teh Absolut Ballz
Full Members
Basic User
Posts: 2199
Where the fuck are my pants?
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« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2008, 12:28:01 am » |
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I guess I'll say the obvious: where are the Null Rods?
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garathiel
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« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2008, 06:28:23 am » |
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Hi to everyone! Omnistrife@ Hi!I saw your meta in morphling.de and i discuss with my friends that is full of oath °_° ... crazy!!! I have tested my oath matchup with a guy that have 1800+ DCI points ( so i guess is a valid tester ) and we found that the game is very 50/50 in the 1° game a bit more % for us post side... This because the protection pool of this deck is very valid: 4force 3daze 3stifle 2snare (4 spellstutter) +1snare 2reb postside that take the place of 2sage of epityr and 1grim lavamancer. ----------- 12+4 preside 15+4 postside ----------- Those are quite landstill numbers of protections...but the very important thing is that we could reach a point to control the game...not only put some 1/1 and ninja ad have 1-2 force/misdi backup...here we have a good pool to remain mana open and try to control the game...i found that this is possible and i didn't need cards like calice & rod ... but for a fast storm meta i could pick 2 pillar in side , to get some advantage.( But the matchup is very close to 50/50 even without it) Instead of usually fish , here we don't have dead draws , only active spells Protections/creatures/Boardcontrol ... and for have a storic comprehension of the deck ... before this list we played 1misdirection & 3° bounce spell ... now we switch the 2 with merchant scroll & mystical tutor to get closer to a more control list ...( virtually with 3f/ice 2bounce 2tutors if we have a ninja in play we don't be afraid of a fast colossus too , we could found a solution) But if your meta is full of oath that's not a bad thing ... u could use Annul / goblin bombardment in your sideboard ... the potential of fish is that is very very versatile to every field. ------------ Tarmogoyf & Grunts are big guys , we have some problem with them if we don't reach to put in play our ninja ... if we have ninja we would have much problems with it ... we could tap it and go in advantage with ninja and put every turn a chump blocker , or go to bounce and backup counter...we could do a usually cloud of faeries/stutter@2 on second turn or spell snare(3x with the side)...or making mana denial to the green land with stifles & wastes ... for grunt is more complicated but with grim+fire we have a good matchup with fishUW so we could play around it. And finally 1/1 with jitte is the best solutions for them  i think ... i think that we don't need others card in the sideboard to manage them , in some matchups ( control with tarmogoyf/ak/drain/yawghmot that is very popular here in italy) we put inside 2x relic too ... and goyf slow us a bit but we could play well around him. -------------------- Prometheon@ 22 mana without brainstorm and the need to reach 3 mana in play for playing stutter+stifle/reb/snare ... after some wastes ... convince me that 2 sage of epityr are the minimum to play. He reduces mulligans and as OmniStrife had say ... filter cards to draw ... and more ... we don't use nullrod , so a cursecatcher is usefull only on first turn ( and i don't have slots to take 3-4x of them) and if we do a good manadenial with gorilla & wastes &stifles ... but there i think a cursecatcher is only a more winner. -------------------- Moxlotus@NullRods - Pillar - Misdirection - Calice ... are protections of the old style fish that i dislike ... now i'm trying to go in a new way of aggrocontrol where we don't need to make them asymmetrik , i wan't no dead draws and only spell that make play or protections. I'm not saying its a bad card ... only that playing spellstutter as critters & counter instead of rod/calice we gain a good counter pool of cards. Here in Italy many fishUR are playing like that with good results ... but if u like rods too much , u could found 2 slot for a 2x of it ... sure not more. |
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« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 06:34:42 am by garathiel »
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breed
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« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2008, 07:58:57 am » |
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Interesting analysis and decklist. But I have one question, why choose Mutavault over Mishra factory? Just for SpellStutter sprite? Is it really necessary?  |
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garathiel
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« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2008, 08:57:39 am » |
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Hi breed! Choose the right number of manlands was a little difficult ... but after many testing I learn that I was attaking very few times with mishra , more often I stayed mana open for spellstutter+stifle with a mishra and 2 island in the field...that makes mishra useless , and mutavault a good resource. So I don't need that extra 1 in defence of mishra or the possibility to give a +1/+1 each other for the attak phase,with grim/fire/spellsnare/stifle i found the aggrocontrol matchup easy , and with jitte in sideboard we could manage a goblin...( with many problems but we could) To reduce the possibility to draw multiple copies of mutavault I cut the number of manlands to 2 ... making the manabase more solid .( Without renunce to library) --------------------------------- Another reason is becouse the cut of brainstorm/ponder-s after the restriction...increase the medium mana-cost of control/combo decks...so using only 2cloud of faeries to support spellstutters is not enough...drawing a mutavault makes much easier to protect the deck from yawgmoth's and tinkers ... that could be problematic. ( Thirst of knowledge/Twister as well ) --------------------------------- To my side I could say that I tryied many configurations ... 2mutavault 1mishra's factory 3mishra's factory 2mishra's factory 1mutavault 3mutavault All with and without Library...but I think that 2Mutavault and 1Library is the best choice --------------------------------- Happy to have explained a good part of the deck ! see ya! |
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« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 09:02:03 am by garathiel »
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garathiel
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« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2008, 07:37:17 pm » |
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Some match-ups
Oath -> 45% preside - 47.5% postSide
We have snare and good counters to slow him , but our finishers are little creatures so the math would never be so positive ... but even not bat at all.
AKcontrol combo -> 65%preside - 60%postside
We have manadenial , hard counters like reb & spellsnare , and ninjas make the match problematic for him...merchant/mystical/chain/echoing/ice are good solutions to a tinker->bigOne.
Combo -> 55%preside - 47.5% postside
Stifles & spellstutter could make big problems for the 1st match.
Post side our surprise effect is vanished , if he have a good sideboard we must see the right cards to reach a good manadenial...if u can't ... go for fast ninja hoping your hopponent don't have too much forces to protect his bombs.
Artifact -> 40% preside - 65% postside
not good if he start in the 1st match , but postside we have many slots ... an easy match if u have done some tests with this arktype.
U need to know the hand to mulligan , counter & destroy only the right thing.
Manaless-> Hope to have a wasteland->preside / 60% postside
Hope for wasteland/daze/stifle preside...
Go for relic/ingot/wasteland in the second...
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Bongo
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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2008, 04:18:11 am » |
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Has Standstill been tried?
I think it's a little dangerous to only rely on Ninja and Recall for card drawing. I've been experimenting with 2 Standstills in place of the third Fire/Ice and fourth Ninja, and it's been working great so far.
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breed
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« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2008, 04:29:33 am » |
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Thanks for the answers! I will test your list this week end, It seems solid and fun! |
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garathiel
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« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2008, 06:09:15 am » |
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Breed@ Thank u for testing my list , hope u comment your results and post your feeling with the deck after. Bongo@I tried 2x Standstill in the place of Mystical tutor & Merchant Schroll to backup the draw engine ... and i don't like it very much ... we only have 2 man lands and few critters , If u need a draw cards u could replace a card in the list for 1xGush !!! It equilibrate the loss of the 2° grim lavamancer ... we gain manabase solidity in the mirror match ... with reb postside we could go for Nolook draw searching for counters with mana in pool...and its synergic with library/mystical tutor/sage of epityr...i like it. With the Gush i think u could cut 1x wasteland to take a lotus petal or a manacrypt ( ninja , jitte , energy flux ... it works!!!) and make the deck more aggressive. EDIT <- A first version of the list played 4standstill 4manlands(2muta2mishra) 2ninja , no tutors ... but it was before the last limitation of brainstorm & ponder , where a spellstutter was countering every spell in the field ^^'... now the manacost is rised and we must try to accelerate the beat down...without loosing the control. Enjoy!!! |
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« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 07:13:34 am by garathiel »
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garathiel
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« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2008, 04:28:11 pm » |
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Today a little top4 for this deck ... we ha losed by Manawith Friggorid ( With spoilers and force of wills ) I was thinking to enjoy a bit of green splash to take Regrowth ( fix the draw engine) and switch echoing truth with deglamer ( fix a little the oath/artifact matchup and take care of colossus ). Post side we could use the power of tarmogoyf to make easier the aggrocontrol mirror and the goblin matchup. This is a check of the sperimental new list ... http://www.deckcheck.net/stats.php?id=45426 ... ( Electrolyze is Fire/ice , problems with the database ) |
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« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 05:59:56 am by garathiel »
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Ruven
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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2008, 02:40:49 pm » |
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Hello, I've been playing this deck too for the last 4 months (using this exact list here http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18164 I found on the web) and I've got to say your build looks interesting but I'm really curious about certain card choices. Especially the whole Tutor/Scroll engine: In your newest build with the Green splash. It seems you cut more creatures for a draw and tutor engine and also some added solutions like Deglamer and Electrolyze. And on first sight it just seems oddly slow, especially for a deck that uses every mana available most of the time for disruption and/or playing creatures. How did that play out during testing? Personally I think a lot of the strength of the deck comes also with the synergy between Ninjutsu and the Stutters/Sages. Stutters give you more disruption/mana denial and the Sages give you enough Card Quality to make more almost obsolete. And cutting that engine for a tutor/solution engine just seems odd on the first sight (to me at least, that's why I'm asking) Gush also seems a very interesting choice: While I think mana (especially colored one) is always a bit rare in this deck, that one gush also can help protecting the duals from getting wasted (Which against random aggro or Gobbos is one of the bigger pains, cause most of the creature disruption is based in red.) So I'm really intersted in knowing how that worked out for you. Or how often you couldn't/didn't want to play Gush because you needed the land as opposed to gladly playing the Gush and maybe even get an extra mana out of it and/or protecting your lands from getting wasted? Also curious about the Electrolyze. The 3 Mana (especially against an aggro deck) seem like a lot and it usually only kills one critter on their end. Why chose this over a 2nd or 3rd Mancer, which is a more permanent solution to the critterproblem? Or why play them at all if you have a Goyf SB now which usually holds of most critters on the other side? Really curious of your answers, cause I definitely don't understand some choices. But I'm also quite new to the whole Vintage Format, so maybe I just don't see the obvious here... Hope I don't come off too rude bombarding you with question like that. Peace Ruven |
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garathiel
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« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2008, 05:54:55 am » |
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I'll respond u better this afternoon , electrolyzes are 2x Fire/ices , the database of deckchek doesn't have fire/ice for stats ^^'. My mistake. I know well Francesco and the list that u are playing , we talked together about the list and he is one of the best player in ITALY ( The 2° for DCI Eternal rating) --- EDIT: The Deck play very well in test ... so Better that I was thinking...I tried Relearn , a slow card 1UU and the green cards ... and I founded that it works well. ->The manabase is increased to 23 + 2stifle&1gush as protection ...Colored mana too , I cutted a wasteland for the 3° mox (now we have only 3waste+1strip+1library+2mutavault->7nocolor lands) ... and 1island+6dual+5fetch+1lotus+3moxes. 16 colored mana & 3 protections , not usual for a fish deck. With this manabase i could reduce mulligans for mana screw and i have better probabilities to start land-mox-stutter. So I don't really need a first turn sage & if i see him ... i'm happy because the deck is no redoundant and full of solutions 1-2x. ( I have only one in the deck but when I see him , he have a greater impact i think). -> Deglaimer , I think its a better choice of Echoing Truth , its a good solution to colossus , artifacts & oaths maindeck. It has the ability to shuffle the deck thats a bit strong against top deck tutors ... nad against T1 cards like sol ring / Pithing needle /Aether vial / Mishra's ^-^... -> 5critter@cc1 to support 3xNinja ability ...I'm trying to found the less number of critters to increase the number of spells in the deck. Before I had 6critter@1 + stutter/cloud ... now 5 + 1mox for 3ninja. The results of my tests say that the stability of the deck is good , if we don't have the drop@1 we have land-mox on first turn ... or we have tutors to cast Ancestral Recall ... or we have an Hand full of counters , and we will Hard cast him in the right time ( 3° turn with a mox usually with a daze backup). -> curiosity , the only card that I dislike in the tests , we need a card for the draw engine in this slot , now i'm trying Relearn ... to retake ancestral/force/timewalk/gush from the graveyard. lol. --- Hope u reThink at the list with the Fire/Ice , I'll be happy to answer to your questions. --- creature [14] 2 Cloud of Faeries 3 Gorilla Shaman 1 Grim Lavamancer 3 Ninja of the Deep Hours 1 Sage of Epityr 4 Spellstutter Sprite instant [19] 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Brainstorm 1 Chain of Vapor 3 Daze 1 Deglamer 2 Fire/Ice 4 Force of Will 1 Gush 1 Misdirection 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Spell Snare 2 Stifle sorcery [4] 1 Merchant Scroll 1 Regrowth 1 Time Walk 1 Relearn artifact [4] 1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Sapphire land [19] 2 Flooded Strand 1 Island 1 Library of Alexandria 2 Mutavault 3 Polluted Delta 1 Strip Mine 3 Tropical Island 3 Volcanic Island 3 Wasteland SIDEBOARD[15] 3 tarmogoyf 2 energy flux 2 ancient grudge 2 ingot chewer 1 red elemental blast 1 pyroblast 2 relic of progenitus 1 tormod's crypt 1 meta slot ( 2°tormod's crypt/2° Spell snare/ 2° deglaimer...ecc...) |
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« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 08:27:48 am by garathiel »
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Ruven
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« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2008, 11:25:11 am » |
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First of all: Thank you for your reply and explanations.
Only one thing I don't understand: Why do you play Chain of Vapor over Echoing? Deglamer over Echoing is surely a very good choice, but why Chain over Echoing?
I like Echoing a lot, because it also helps in the ichorid matchup, or against Chalice 1. Because, if there is a Chalice 1on the board, the only solution I see right now is Deglamer, which can't be tutored by scroll (and mystical/gorilla can't be played at this time). So chain seems like an unnecessary risk to me of not helping at all in certain situations.
Besides that, your list looks really strong. You have better solutions to the Aggro/Workshop Matchup, which are Matchups that I always feared with the list I played. Also the plays with Relearn seem a nice idea.
Anyway, definitely an interesting way the deck developed. Looks great.
p.s. Can you say "thanks" to Francesco for the original list from me? (It just won me a Recall last Sunday, and I enjoyed playing it very much. I don't know what I would be playing if I hadn't found this deck on the web. And I really like the deck a lot)
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garathiel
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« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2008, 05:22:47 am » |
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I understand your Fear for Calice@1 on the first match , now i'm trying chain of vapor only because with a spellstutter in play I think about it as a counter/bounce slot , with 3 mana is a counter that targets cc@1 or plus ... in combat phase is not inusual to do chain to spellstutter , sac island chain to tarmogoyf and have a counter in hand (with a cloud/stutter/mutavault in play) , and things like this. . At last i'm trying chain because we have a good sideboard VS artifact and we don't have many Ichorid/Empty the warrens in our metagame ... but Echoing is a Good choice too ( And yes maybe better) . The Relearn too is only an Experiment , it looks very strong in test ... but only when u see some accelerators , and we don't have many , i think i'll risk the fourth ninja ... or i'll meandeck a tarmogoyf to have another slot for ichorid in sideboard ( 2° tormod's crypt i think). Thank u for Your interest @ the list , and we are happy u have done well in tournament . ( place & number of partecipants?) EDIT-OT: I talked to Francesco on Messenger and He Thanks u saying that he makes some changes on the deck. -2cloud of faeries +2pyrostatic pillar -1 grim lavamancer +1 fire/ice -1mishra's factory +1mutavault and for the sideboard -2 pillar( now maindeck) +1reb +freeslot ... and he say to think about some relic instead of tormod's crypt. And He wins Lucca Comics 2008 , one of the most important tournament of the year here in italy ... and the prize was an Airline Ticket to USA for the 2009 World Tournament of Vintage ... so smennen ... watch out |
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« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 08:32:08 am by garathiel »
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Ruven
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« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2008, 01:58:19 pm » |
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btw Speaking of experiment: have you tried worldly tutor in this deck? Since all your creatures are also solutions or elements of control, the tutor might work here...but it's just a thought. the Tournament was a smaller one with 5 Proxies allowed (so this deck was perfect, cause I didn't have any power) and there were about 26-28 people attending (we still played 6 rounds of swiss + top8 though) and I got in 1st and won the Recall. I was very lucky though, winning against Ichorid in the Semifinal and against Goblins in the Final. Thank you and Francesco for the update on the deck. I'll maybe write more later, but now I'm just too exhausted to go on. (also been sick with light flu for the last 4 days, duh  ) |
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garathiel
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« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2008, 05:47:37 am » |
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Stutter Fish
Maindeck (60):
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Mutavault
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
22
------ : ------
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Gorilla Shaman
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Sage of Epityr
2 Cloud of Faeries
4 Folletta Balbettamagie
16
------ : ------
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Stifle
2 Spell Snare
1 Negate
12
------ : ------
3 Fire-Ice
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of vapor
5
------ : ------
1 Brainstorm
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
5
tot 60
---
This is the list that i take for the last tournament , and I made final with 41 persons.
The only change is -1stifle +1negate.
I choose to wait for a URG list that is not much tested and continue to play the classic UR.
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breed
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« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2008, 10:13:58 am » |
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Hi,
Wednesday, I tested the decklist.
The deck is quite consistent and funny to play. I played against Fish UWB and Gobbos.
In both match up, Fire/Ice was the key. Sometimes, even with F/I, I was unable to win cause of grunts. Also, if gobbo can play the sharpshooter, this is the end of the game for U/R.
Cloud of Faeries seems not really good, I may search something else. In fact, U/R lack good beaters to finish the game, maybe we can add Green for Tarmos?
Thanks for the list, I will continue to test it.
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islanderboi10
Basic User
Posts: 233
"We Got There!"
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« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2008, 02:03:26 pm » |
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Or you could try running equipment, such as Jitte or Sigil.
Why is there no null rod in the deck?
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Team OCC- "We Got There!"
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garathiel
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« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2008, 02:36:05 pm » |
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Or you could try running equipment, such as Jitte or Sigil.
Why is there no null rod in the deck?
From the first post!!! --- Moxlotus@NullRods - Pillar - Misdirection - Calice ... are protections of the old style fish that i dislike ... now i'm trying to go in a new way of aggrocontrol where we don't need to make them asymmetrik , i wan't no dead draws and only spell that make play or protections. I'm not saying its a bad card ... only that playing spellstutter as critters & counter instead of rod/calice we gain a good counter pool of cards. Here in Italy many fishUR are playing like that with good results ... but if u like rods too much , u could found 2 slot for a 2x of it ... sure not more. --- Grunt is a good problem , but with the sideboard ( relic and jitte) we could win the game easly. Here we don't have many WUtang player , more FishUR mirrors , so F/ice is the key. If i could give u a hint ... don't take out clouds of faeries from the deck , its too important to have a potential 8 faeries in the deck to counters cc3spells like yawghmot ... and loosing clouds you must ridefine the number of cc1 spells like stifle and critters@1 for ninja. |
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« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 07:13:08 pm by garathiel »
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islanderboi10
Basic User
Posts: 233
"We Got There!"
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« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2008, 12:12:07 am » |
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oops, sorry about that. reading is tech |
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Team OCC- "We Got There!"
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swawagon
Basic User
Posts: 196
Shawn Brook Williams
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« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2008, 11:18:27 am » |
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I think there are just too many Time Vaults in the meta to not play 3-4 Null Rod in this kind of deck. Gorilla Shaman needs 5 mana to kill a Time Vault, which is unlikely in time. I play 3 Null Rod, and 3 Gorilla Shaman and think that is a 6 card great suite of disruption and creatures. Null Rod also seriously hurts storm combo and Bomberma, it not even bad against most Stax lists, and the list goes on... I even keep them in against RGW aggro for their Skullclamps and Aether Vials in my UR Stutter-Fish list. A Null Rod down most often will make 5-12 opponents cards dead and that should not be overlooked and at most 3 of your cards.
I like lots of turn one creatures for Ninja, however overall I prefer Fire/Ice to Grim Lavamancer for many reasons. It's blue for Force of Will, it can cycle, it is instant speed damage, it can kill 2 Bobs now, it can tap down creatures for offense or defense, or it can tap down mana sources in opponents upkeeps messing up them casting stuff. Fire/Ice is just so much more versatile than Lavamancer.
Splashing green for Tarmo is understandable, but your mana base seriously suffers. Especially against Stax. I think if you add green, either some of the man lands or Waste affects have to go. (I still prefer 3 Factories to 3 Mutuvaults) I love the beef Tarmo gives. But Verdillion Clique is disruption, a Faerie, has evasion, has flash, and blue; that also dramatically speeds up your clock. Plus staying on color keeps your mana much safer. Before jumping to green I'd recommend you try a couple Cliques.
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Team ICEHOLE
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Ruven
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« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2009, 02:05:50 am » |
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btw I was playing a Urg List the last 3 Months at our tournaments and I have to say I like it a lot better than the UR. Mostly because of the better Stax and Fish MU. Also Regrowth Effects really help a lot. I tried Reclaim as an additional Regrowth and that card alone won me 2 games or so.
the List was following
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Deglamer
1 Regrowth
1 Reclaim
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Snare
1 Misdirection
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Gorilla Shaman
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Sage of Epityr
4 Ninja of the Deep Hour
2 Tarmogoyf
SB
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Energy Flux
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Negate
The SB is still a bit under consruction, but worked fine. Never had to play against storm though, although there weren't a lot of storm decks present anyway. In the MD, I will probably cut back to 3 Ninjas and maybe add 1 Echoing or 1 Goyf or 1 Grim or 1 Negate. I'll probably go for the Negate though.
btw swawagon: You never had some serious trouble with aggrodecks or Staxx with the UR build? especially against random aggro, which always gave me a lot of trouble when I was still playing with the UR list..
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honestabe
Basic User
Posts: 1113
How many more Unicorns must die???
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« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2009, 11:09:39 am » |
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I've always been a fan of R/U Fish, and this list looks great.
The only thing I may do differently would be to add a few Veshing Sushers, but I'm not even sure about that....
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As far as I can tell, the entire Vintage community is based on absolute statements
-Chris Pikula |
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the boogie man
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« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2009, 02:06:25 pm » |
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what about vendillion clique? its a fairy, its`disruption, and it is an instant. sure it costs 3 mana, but you don't run rod. I also think you should run at least 3 goys, so you see it early. I also thin that you should add another lavamancer, so you see them at all. and he still activates ninja turn 2.
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Unrestrict: Gush, Flash, Frantic search, fact or fiction (probably), and burning wish if it doesn't suck now.
this may be the last time you hear the boogie song.
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Ruven
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« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2009, 06:11:01 am » |
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boogie man: Well, yes, but problem is with adding all the stuff that would also be great is, that I have to cut something else which already is doing fine... I mean I ran this deck with 3 goyfs and only 3 Ninjas last time and it worked fine, but usually the goyf is not what you want too early anyway, so I cut down to 2 which worked fine.
running clique would be nice, but I wouldn't know what to cut for it. Except maybe a ninja. adding another Grim would also be very nice, but again, same problem: what to take out.
the other possibilty would be to take out all the tutor/regrowth stuff and just add more critters, like grim, goyf and clique. Would be worth a try maybe, since the first UR list I played didn't have any of those and worked just fine all the same...
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