Time Vault Combo

[meadbert]

So if I were to play Time Vault here is the list I would play:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

1 Time Vault
2 Voltaic Key

1 Darksteel Colossus

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Tinker
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk

4 Force of Will
1 Fact Or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Intuition
4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Echoing Truth
4 Mana Drain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor

3 Argivian Find
1 Enlightened Tutor

sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Thoughtseize
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
3 Seal of Cleansing
1 Balance

It turns out this is not a control decks.  Many folks see Thirsts and Drains and think Control and then quickly point out what a bad control deck this is.  They are right.  This is a bad control deck.  What it is, is a combo deck.  It is fairly quick Combo deck that happens to use Drains instead of Duress, Thoughtseize or Misdirection.  This may not be the right call, but with so many Instants already, Drains made sense.  Perhaps Misdirection would have been better.  Perhaps Duress or Thoughtseize would have been better.  More on this later.

First of all there is no Tez.  Tez has been compared to Gifts for several good reasons.  Both are easily accelerated out with a Drain and each win the game the next turn and sometimes that turn.  Tez has a bonus of being less Graveyard dependent.  Tez does has several drawbacks though:
1)  Tez costs an extra u which means it comes out later.
2)  Tez must be cast at sorcery speed.  Tapping out in your main phase to wait a turn to win is not what Drain decks are looking to do.  Drain decks would much rather cast their winning Bomb at the end of their opponent's turn and then win right away.
3)  Tez is vulnerable to attack by creatures.

For the above reasons I have not been overly impressed by Tez and was not thrilled by it.

What I have been impressed with were Time Vault and Voltaic Key as a combo.  For a while one of my favorite combos in type 1 has been the Fastbond + Crucible of Worlds combo.  This combo had a few advantages.  First, both halves could be Argivian Finded out.  Argivian Find is one of my favorite cards and I also consider it to be the most underestimated and underutilized card in type 1.  It is basically Regrowth with the draw back that it only can grab Artifacts and Enchantments.  This draw back does matter, but since you can build a deck with good Artifacts and Enchantments then that drawback can be mitigated.  The best card in magic, Black Lotus, is an artifact.  Meanwhile Argivian Find has two HUGE advantages over Regrowth.  First it costs less.  Second it is instant speed which is far more important in a meta where Tormod's Crypt is showing up again.
The second advantage of the Fastbond/Crucible combo was that each half was scary by itself.  I once had a deck I called Turbo Gush that ran the Fastbond Crucible combo along with Argivian Finds and a full set of Gushes, Brainstorms and Merchant Scrolls among other things.  This deck was killed by restrictions.  I tried to resurrect it by replacing Brainstorms, Scrolls and Gushes with Sensei's Divining Tops and Thirst for Knoweledges.  The idea seemed to have merit since Top comboes nicely with Crucible allowing you to shuffle each turn if you have a fetch.  Also both Crucible and top Pitch to Thirst.  In reality the deck was far too slow because there were too few tutors.  I then tried added black and that was sort of an improvement, but 4 colors were too many.  Blue was mandatory since half the deck was blue.  I had already tried without Black and found I was short on Tutors.  White seemed like an option to drop but Argivian Find was so good.
Then Time Vault and Voltaic Key were printed.  This combo had the same main advantage that the Fastbond/Crucible combo had.  Both parts can be Argivian Finded.  This allows Intuition + Argivian Find to act as a double Demonic Tutor for your combo pieces.  Unfortunately Key and Vault are not great on their own.  Vault is great for making your opponent tap out and Key untaps your Mana Vault, but either is mostly terrible on its own.  I decided that I would construct a deck from here.

The above deck is very good at winning small.  What I mean by this is that the overall mana cost of most cards in the deck is low.  This allows you to win quickly with few resources.  Here is an example:
Imagine that you have 4 mana sources out and only Intuition + one of (Vault, Key, Find) in hand during your opponent's end step.  You can actually just win next turn!
You Intuition for all missing combo pieces + Argivian Finds and Argivian Find out the other missing piece eot.  You then untap and win with both combo pieces and your 4 mana sources.  It is that easy!

The mana requirements are much less than Gifts decks are.  You also get a ton of random turn 2 wins where your openening hand is something like Combo Piece + top deck tutor.

Argivian Find is primarily used for getting back combo pieces, but it is also a nice accelerant with Lotus.  Basically Argivian Find turns into a white version of Dark Ritual that can produce any colored mana you want.  Keep in mind that in many ways Argivian Find simply functions as protection since the card that your opponents really want to counter is the second combo piece.  In this manner Argivian Find functions as additional protection.  Without looking at Find in this manner this deck is somewhat light on protection.  TPS runs something like 10 protection spells and Tez runs somewhere around 13.  This deck only runs 8, but that number jumps to 11 if you count Argivian Find.

Generally this deck has a turn 3 clock, but you get a significant number of turn 2 wins.  The number of turn 2 wins should exceed the number of goldfishes that take more than 3 turns.  I estimate the goldfish is around 2.8.

This deck is generally less reliant on the yard than most Intuition decks are.  While 4 cards (3xFind + Yawg) are cut off by Leyline, Intuition itself is perfectly capable of grabbing 3 tutors so you can get what you want to either combo out with Vault/Key or Tinker for Colossus.  Also, Argivian Find is wonderful for dodging Tormod's Crypt.  It occurs all the time that I cast Yawg with Vault in the yard and my opponent Crypts in response so I then use Find to grab Vault in response and combo out anyway.  You can do the same thing if you have 2 Argivian Finds in hand.

Here is a run down of cards that are and are not included and why.

1)  Why 8 fetches?
  Unlike Meandeck Gifts which was happy to play mono blue control or the new Tez decks that are basically B/U with a third color splashed this deck actually wants access to all 3 colors.  You run 4 white and 4 black spells and you are looking to combo out on turn 3 or even turn 2.  This is a huge difference from Meandeck Gifts which may have only run 2 Red and 2 Black spells and looked to combo out on turn 4.  Also, your actual win is colorless which means that if you run fewer fetches and more duals that you end up with many cases where you have Enlightened Tutor or Imperial Seal but no white source or no black source.  Gifts needed Red and Black to Recoup Yawg, but you frequently Need white or black to tutor for the missing combo piece.  The solution is to run a ton of fetches and that way you have access to any of the three colors.

Just 1 Island?
You really want 1 Island, but you usually do not want 2 in play.  This is because you want the option of using 1cc Top deck tutors to get what you want.  A hand with just Island in your opening hand is much worse than a hand with a fetch!  Fetch also helps you dodge Wasteland.  Imagine you open with Mox and a Fetch.  Now you can pass the turn.  With fetch out there your opponent will probably not drop a Waste.  This allows you to Fetch out a Dual and cast Vamp/Enlightened Tutor at the end of turn.  On turn 2 you drop a second land and play Vault and Key.  Now you have the win next turn unless your opponent can remove Vault or Key or remove all three mana sources somehow.

2 Seas and Tundras?
A second Underground and a second Tundra are needed in case you must play the first on turn 1 and it gets wasted.  A third of either would be worse than a fetch since a fetch yields more options.

What about Scrubland?  It can be fetched by all 8 fetches!
One thought I have considered is adding a Scrubland.  I could perhaps drop a Sea and a Tundra for Island #2 and a Scrubland, but that messes with mulligans since you cannot keep a hand without a blue source.  If I increased to a 14th land then I could see perhaps adding Scrubland, but that makes no sense for now.

No Petal?
I run all acceleration except Lotus Petal.  Petal is a close call.  It pitches to Thirst, helps get Drain up on turn 1 and fixes colors which is important in this list.  I still consider it to be not quite good enough since acceleration is less of an issue for a deck with such a low mana curve.  Vault and Crypt are much better in that they allow for turn 2 wins with top deck tutors, while Petal does not.  Vault is also better for casting Fact and Gifts.

No Top?
I did not put Sensei's Diving Top in the deck.  Basically this is a combo deck that wants to win quickly.  Top is better in Control decks because over times it gives you several slight advantages.  Top does combo with Key, but that is not what this list wants to do.

Two Keys?
Two Keys might look strange to some folks, but it helps frequently.  First of all the artifact count is a bit low to support Thirst to begin with.  There are 9 accelerants, 3 combo pieces and DSC for a total of 13 artifacts.  Drop to 12 and Thirsts get worse.  What makes Key good other than pitching to Thirst is that it allows for certain Intuition piles.  With Find in hand you can Intuition for 2xKey + Vault.  This way you can get your other combo pieces with just 1 White mana.  Without a second Vault your Intuition pile would need to look like Key + Vault + Argivian Find.  Now you need two white sources to get back combo pieces which is tough to get with only 2 Tundras in the deck.
I am not opposed to dropping a Key, but there are reasons that there are two.  Key is an admittedly bad top deck in many circumstances, but since you want Key + Vault in order to win, Key is only terrible when you manage to draw both which is quite rare.

Is Colossus right for this deck?
  I think it is.  First of all Tinker is basically a must have since it tutors up the combo and neatly dodges Chalice@1 or Chalice@2.  For this reason it seems reasonable to run a Colossus as a backup win.  There are Thirsts for DSC to pitch to and while I mention DSC as the backup win that is sort of not true.  In fact DSC is the only win since infinite turns = lose if you do not actually have a win condition.  Tez could be an alternative here, but then I could not safely pitch Tez to Force the way I can pitch DSC to Thirst so to me DSC makes more sense.  Also any other win could be RFGed by an untimely Tormod's Crypt if I pitched it to Thirst.  DSC is the one card in magic for which I do not need to worry about that.

Why not run Red for Recoup and then some sweet sideboard cards?
  White is better than red for this deck in my opinion.  Argivian Find is better than Recoup because Recoup forces you to pay for multiple more expensive spells in one turn while Argivian Find allows you to spread out the paying of less expensive spells at instant speed over several turns.  White has very strong sideboard cards as well.  For instance, Oath can be somewhat problematic for this deck, but with Seal of Cleansing in the board that matchup is greatly improved.  Also, Balance is just broken.

Yawg, Demonic and Vamp are all pretty obvious.  Imperial Seal is more questionable, but it does find the other Combo piece or Tinker or Yawg or Ancestral.  By finding whatever you want for 1 mana Imperial Seal is excellent for wiggling out of tough situations.  It is still one of the first cards I look to board out.

Would Deep Analysis or Accumulated Knowledge make sense?
I do not think these cards make sense. The idea is that you are a combo deck so Intuition should be finding the card that wins you the game rather than trying to draw more cards.  I could be wrong here and 2 DAs do not take up much space so perhaps that should be tried.

Tinker gets the combo or DSC, dodges Chalice@1or2 and removes your own Mana Crypt which is huge at times.

Scroll finds Recall or the win in the late game through either Gifts, Intuition or even Scroll->Mystical->Yawg.

Walk is obvious.
Force is obvious.

Would Gush make sense?
Gush is actually a solid choice for the mana base.  It can dodge Wasteland with 2 lands out and if you are going to run a 13 Fetch/Dual/Island base with just 1 Island then Gush starts to look good.  It was restricted for a reason and could replace a Thirst.
Typically Gush's biggest draw back is the tempo lost by bouncing your board.  This is less pronounced in a deck whose win conditions cost 1 and 2 respectively.

Fact or Fiction does not have synergy with the deck, but it is broken in general and with Drains I think it makes sense.  Fact is one of those cards that you can just throw in a lot of combo decks (like Long or even Dragon) and it does not seem to fit but then works out fine anyway. 

Gifts Ungiven is broken since you can get the combo straight away with piles like (Vault, Key, Find, Yawg) or (Key, Demonic, Tinker, Vamp)

Intuition is the main engine.  It finds whatever you want.  Examples:
1)  Intuition + Find = both combo pieces.
2)  Intuition find missing combo pieces by grabbing the combo pieces and Argivian Finds.
3)  Intuition for 3xForce in Dire emergency.
4)  Intuition for 3xDrain if you have the mana.
5)  EOT Intuition for Demonic, Vamp, Mystical if you want Yawg/Tinker.
6)  Intuition for hate such as 3xCrypt or 3xSeal against Oath.
7)  Sometimes you just want good cards.  I have been guilty of this pile: (Ancestral Recall, Demonic Tutor, Tinker/Fact)

Thirst is sort of week in this deck.  First of all you are a combo deck so you are not thrilled to be using Thirst to just draw blindly.  Also the number of artifacts are somewhat low.  That said DSC is terrible in hand and combo pieces can be weak in hand as well.  With so many Finds, a yard can be a great place to keep a combo piece till you are ready to win so having Thirsts to filter out dead artifact can be huge at times.  Four Thirsts might be too many.  Thirsting into Thirst is usually bad since you likely just discarded your last artifact so you are now Thirsting blindly hoping to draw an artifact.  Even worse is that after two Thirsts you are likely to want to keep a combo pieces if you already have the other in the yard and a Find in your hand.  Your first Thirst is decent and belongs in the deck.  Your second Thirst is bad.  For this reason I can totally see dropping 1 Thirst and adding a Gush in its place.

Is Echoing Truth the right bounce spell?
  I am not sure here.  I suspect that this deck is fast enough to ignore Warrens so Warrens are not a huge issue.  The bigger issue is actually Dredge.  Sideboard space is at a premium these days and Echoing Truth in the main is one less anti-dredge card I need in the board.  Any of Chain, Hurkyl's, Rebuild could probably also work.  Hurkyl's and Rebuild have the risk that something silly like Moat could just beat me.  For that reason I mostly considered Scroll and Chain.  I considered Chalice@1 to be more Threatening and for that reason I choose Echoing Truth.

Is Mana Drain right instead of MisD/Thoughtseize/Duress?
  This is a tough question.  I was thinking that with 4 Intuition, 4 Thirst, Fact, Gifts, Ancestral, Brainstorm, Vamp, Mystical, Enlightened Tutor and 2xArgivian Find that all these Instants really make Drain a strong card.  This is mostly right and it why I run Drain.  Still, you want to play this deck aggressively and that means trying to win by tapping out with Drain in hand at times.  In those cases I would have rather had Duress or Thoughtseize if I had an extra mana or Misdirection if I had no mana at all.  If I knew that I would be playing against Control decks all day long I might switch to some Misdirections, but knowing that I could run into Stax at any time Mana Drain is probably best.  It is still better than Duress, Thoughtseize and Misdirection and this deck has everything needed to support it.  Also, the number of Blue cards in this deck is already low enough that going to Duress or Thoughtseize would have bad implications for Force.

Ancestral, Brainstorm and Mystical are obvious.

Argivian Find is broken in my opinion.  When comparing Cunning Wish and Merchant Scroll folks will quickly point out that Scroll is way better despite the fact that Wish is more flexible and Instant Speed.  Why?  Because Merchant Scroll costs 1 less.  Well Argivian not only costs 1 less than Regrowth, but it is also the instant speed spell in that comparison.    Find's purpose is to get back removed combo pieces, build broken Intuition piles and accelerate mana with Black Lotus.  Find also recycles Tormod's Crypt versus Dredge post board which is HUGE at times since it is the second Crypt activation that really beats Dredge.

Enlightened Tutor should never be unrestricted in my opinion.  Never mind Necropotence and Fastbond which could be abused.  Just consider what Enlighened Tutoring for Black Lotus consistently allows?  In this deck Enlightened Tutor can find either combo piece, Black Lotus or Mana Crypt.  There are times when Mana Crypt is what you most want since you are mana light and have several spells you want to cast.  If you hand is full of Thirsts and Intuitions then by grabbing Mana Crypt you can suddenly cast everying.  Enlightend Tutor basically traded 2 cards for 2 off color Moxen for 1 mana which is decent.
 
Sideboard cards:
First of all you usually want to play combo.  This means that hate cards should be coming in for control cards rather than tutors and combo cards.

Dredge:
-4 Force of Will, -4 Mana Drain
+4 Tormod's Crypt, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Balance, +1 Echoing Truth
 (There is not THAT much hate here, but you have boarded out none of your combo pieces so your goldfish is still 2.8)

Long:
-1 Thirst, -3 Drain
+3 Thoughtseize, + 1 Tormod's Crypt

Oath:
-1 Imperial Seal, -1 Thirst, -1 Drain
+3 Seal of Cleansing

Drain/Control
-1 Enlightned Tutor, -1 Imperial Seal, -1 Vampiric Tutor
+3 Thoughtseize

Fish:
-3 Drain
+2 Needle (Wasteland)
+1 Balance

Stax:  Honestly I am not sure here.  There are great options to bring in including:
1 Rebuild
3 Seal of Cleansing
2 Pithing Needle

I am not sure what to take out.  Imperial Seal goes out for sure.  Next are probably Gifts and Fact since the light manabase means you must be hopeful if you want to be able to cast those.  After that decisions are tougher.  Generally Thirst and Drain are the worst cards, but Drain is good against Stax and Thirst filters through Roded/Chaliced artifacts and has more artifacts to pitch if you kept Needles so I am not sure.  Against Mud you might not need Needle.  One thought is to swap Rebuild for Sacred Ground and just go Straight for Sacred Ground and win that way, but there are enough Shop Aggro decks and even Stax decks with heavy aggro components that I think Sacred Ground is not flexible enough.

One option I am considering is add Orim's Chant to the board.  This is solid against Long and can function as protection against Control.  Also it is solid against Dredge.  It would probably be replacing Thoughtseize and perhaps the Echoing Truth in the board.
Are there any thought on if this is a decent idea?

Here are some of the toughest questions that I am struggling with:
1)  Should I just drop Imperial Seal?  I board this out against everything but Long and Dredge but it really helps for those turn 2 wins.
2)  Should Drains become some combination of Drains/Thoughtseize/Duress/Misdirection
3)  Should I drop Thirst#4 for Gush?
4)  Should I add a second basic?  If so what should I drop?
5)  Would Scrubland make sense?
6)  Do I need a 14th land?
7)  Would Orim's be better than Thoughtseize in the board?
8)  Is a lone DSC enough pre-board?  post-board?
9)  Should I try to add 2 DAs?  If so what should I drop?
10)  Is the second Voltaic Key really optimal?
11)  Is Petal too good to omit.  Here I have felt the need to 8 fetches to fix colors but I have dropped Petal.  Is that just wrong?
12)  Should I be boading Balance in for more of my matchups?  Should I run Balance in the main?
13)  Should Fact be omitted because it is not a combo piece, this is a combo deck and it costs too much?
14)  Is Echoing Truth the right bounce spell?  In real life there is no Moat and Hurkyl's Recall is just better in case your opponent has Tinkered for DSC already.
15)  Is the 3rd Argivian Find really needed?  How often will I really want to Intuition for 3xFind?  After all I could just grab 2xFind + Yawg.  (Note I think 3xFind are needed so one can be treated as protection)
16)  Enlightened Tutor cannot be optimal.  So I have 1 combo piece.  I ET for the other and play both only the second is countered.  Now I have basically used 3 cards to gain ... nothing thanks to one counter from my opponent.  Note that I freely admit that ET is bad against Control decks.  It is in here because it does grab the win and just wins games against Dredge by finding Needle/Crypt and also helps by finding Seal against Oath.

[Troy_Costisick]

11)  Is Petal too good to omit.  Here I have felt the need to 8 fetches to fix colors but I have dropped Petal.  Is that just wrong?

I'll try this one.  I might play petal in this list instead of Mana Crypt.  In a deck that takes infinite turns, a coin flip for 3 damage every upkeep might be a liability if you opponent makes you play it out.  What's your thoughts on the risk that Crypt + TV brings with it?

[meadbert]

11)  Is Petal too good to omit.  Here I have felt the need to 8 fetches to fix colors but I have dropped Petal.  Is that just wrong?

I'll try this one.  I might play petal in this list instead of Mana Crypt.  In a deck that takes infinite turns, a coin flip for 3 damage every upkeep might be a liability if you opponent makes you play it out.  What's your thoughts on the risk that Crypt + TV brings with it?

Excellent Question!  I should I commented on this in the original post.
Crypt doing damage over infinte turns is rarely an issue unless someone's DSC already swung in or some other creatures have nearly kill you.
With so many tutors and some draw you quickly find Tinker and Echoing Truth.  For this reason Crypt is on dangerous than it is in other decks.  That said, Crypt is dangerous, but its advantages far outweigh its drawbacks.  I did not play Mana Crypt in Turbo Gush because of dissynergy with Fastbond and Fetch recursion, but this list loses far less life and thus I think it is worth it.  If I were to swap Drains for Thoughtseizes then I might want to revist this.
I would probably drop an off color mox before Mana Crypt.  As I mentioned I have actually Enlightened Tutored for Crypt in cases where I was light on mana.
If I were to drop an artifact for Petal it would be either Mana Vault or Voltaic Key#2.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Wouldn't you run Reconstruction over Argivian Find, or am I missing something?

[Yare]

Wouldn't you run Reconstruction over Argivian Find, or am I missing something?

Well, he mentions using Argivian Find in response to Tormod's Crypt, so I suppose that's a reason. Reconstruction is a sorcery. I guess it would depend upon whether you're really afraid of Tormod's Crypt. I can't really think of any other reasons off the top of my head.

[LordHomerCat]

I can't ever recall a game with regular Tez where I got my key or vault countered and couldn't do anything about it.  Is this a problem you often have?  I never ever wished for even one Argivian Find let alone 3; I want to cut regrowth and that card can get back ancestral and walk (and for the record, has never once gone for Key or Vault).  It seems like they would just be really dead a lot of the time.

[Chill79]

Wouldn't you run Reconstruction over Argivian Find, or am I missing something?

Maybe because people are using REB and so on,but ditchable to FoW is one thing to consider...

[meadbert]

Wouldn't you run Reconstruction over Argivian Find, or am I missing something?

Until just now I was totally unaware of Reconstruction!  That could provide a significant improvement in several ways.  Mostly it allows shifting to a U/B mana base which helps fix some issues.  The fact that Argivian Find is an instant is frequently important though in that you can cast both Intuition + Find eot.  Still I suspect that helping the mana base by dropping white and being able to pitch Reconstruction to Force are more important.  The loss of Enlightened Tutor would not be that bad.  What will be missed more are Seal of Cleansing and Balance from the board.

[timp]

so if you do switch to u/b...then maybe
md
-2 tundra
-2 fetch
+2 underground seas
+2 basic

-3 argivian Find
-1 enlightened Tutor

+3 reconstruction
+1 ponder

sb
-1 balance
-3 seal of cleansing
-4 t-crypt

+1 needle
+1 trickbind for storm decks or oath maybe
+4 leyline of the void (oath dumps all revealed cards into graveyard and you etruth what they put into play off the oath and you have a second sideable etruth already so i think most oath only has 2 creatures main right? and hopefully you can get into your free turn loop before they get another chance to oath)
+2 helm of obedience

[meadbert]

That mostly looks really good.

I would not want to drop the Tormod's Crypts.  The reason is the Reconstruction gets them back the same way that Argivian Find does, thus if I have Crypt + Reconstruction in my oppening hand, then Dredge is in trouble without Chalice.

You do raise the important issue of Oath.  I do not need Seal of Cleansing for Stax since more Basics and Bounce does the same job.  Where I really need Seals are against Oath.  U/B just do not seem to be the right color combination for fighting Oath.  More Duress effects could help and there is Annul and Spell Snare, but those are reactive so I am not sure.  One option is to race Oath which frequently works well so Perhaps a boarding option would simply be:
-3 Drain
+3 Thoughtseize

The idea would be to grab Oath with Thoughtseize if possible and if not just race.

[Troy_Costisick]

You do raise the important issue of Oath.  I do not need Seal of Cleansing for Stax since more Basics and Bounce does the same job.  Where I really need Seals are against Oath.  U/B just do not seem to be the right color combination for fighting Oath.  More Duress effects could help and there is Annul and Spell Snare, but those are reactive so I am not sure.  One option is to race Oath which frequently works well so Perhaps a boarding option would simply be:
-3 Drain
+3 Thoughtseize

The idea would be to grab Oath with Thoughtseize if possible and if not just race.

Drain into Jester's Cap or Ensnaring Bridge maybe?  Or have Extract in the SB?  Extract would also be good vs. Tendrils decks.  Just throwing out a couple ideas

[Implacable]

So far I really like this deck.  Seals are good in the 'mirror' - e.g., anything with Vault - and against Oath.  Nevertheless, perhaps an UBr build'd be better than the UBw, now that we know about Reconstruction.  Could have Rack & Ruin in the board, and I like Blasts.  Maybe Welder?

[c dizzle]

Don't forget that Find can also get enchantments...

[Implacable]

Yep.  But is there a benefit to that, in this deck? 

It's more the Instant bit that I regret about Reconstruction.  But so far, I'm finding it's not really a factor.  More, the engine functions as EOT Intuition, main-phase win, with the Intuition costing 3 and the win costing 5 (Recon + Key + Activate + Vault).  So the Instant bit'd only be a problem if you had on both the EOT and in your main access to only four mana total.  That's rare; the deck plays out a lot like Gifts, where you stick in control for the first couple turns and then cast a bomb on T3EOT.

[meadbert]

Yep.  But is there a benefit to that, in this deck? 

It's more the Instant bit that I regret about Reconstruction.  But so far, I'm finding it's not really a factor.  More, the engine functions as EOT Intuition, main-phase win, with the Intuition costing 3 and the win costing 5 (Recon + Key + Activate + Vault).  So the Instant bit'd only be a problem if you had on both the EOT and in your main access to only four mana total.  That's rare; the deck plays out a lot like Gifts, where you stick in control for the first couple turns and then cast a bomb on T3EOT.

I was having more of a problem with Reconstruction not being an instant.  I agree that the main draw back is needing 5 mana on the win turn, but it slows me down a turn fairly frequently.  That said, pitching to blue and having a nice mana base has been nice.

I have also started testing Gush and it is definitely better than Thirst.  Among other things, with only 13 lands it is common to be missing your  land drop on turn 3 or 4 right as you are trying to win.  Gush no only draws two cards, but also provides an extra mana source that turn so it is really good.  I would definitely add Gush to the list.

A remaining question is whether Ponder or Thirst#4 is better.  I have not been thrilled with Thirst#4 overall and without Enlightened Tutor there are fewer turn 1 plays so I am guessing that Ponder will be better.

I have missed Seal of Cleansing post board.  According to my testing Oath is very good right now and Seal of Cleansing really helped post board.
Jester's Cap was a good idea.  I have not tested that yet.

[Qube]

First of all i really like the deck. As soon as i saw this deck, i made testing and I've to say the speed of  this deck is really insane! I also play against/as comparative with ANT and this deck win most of the matches. It has the mostly the same speed but a better engine and more tutors (as we count Inuition also as a tutor).

I'm definitely against the cutting of Argivian Find, because of one the main reason of being an instant. If the deck works well, it doesn't matter but at the moment your opponent can make anything of gravehate like Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus you loose if you can't play the "regrowth effect" as instant.
In games 2 & 3 it can make a huge different if you can get back the seal of cleansing or not!

And it's too broken if you've (or just and 2 fetch) and play Intuition (Vault, Find, Find). So can either cast Find EOT or win just on next turn.

Intuition:

I ever like Intuition very much, but in this deck it's just insane... mostly after the first Intuition you win the game. And the possibility of variate the piles is very impressive. I made piles like meadbert describe:
FoW-Piles, Tutor-Piles, Bombs-Piles, Mana-Piles, 1 Combopiece & 2 Find, Just good cards ... It is very situate, so I think we should play it only in the "last possible moment" not just on mainphase because you also can wait and look what the opponent will do and then response with Intuition.

I also like Intuition in the second & third games with Sideboarding. because it can find the boarded things very easy. like Tormod's-Piles or Pithing Needle.

Here are some of the toughest questions that I am struggling with:
2)  Should Drains become some combination of Drains/Thoughtseize/Duress/Misdirection
3)  Should I drop Thirst#4 for Gush?
6)  Do I need a 14th land?
7)  Would Orim's be better than Thoughtseize in the board?
8)  Is a lone DSC enough pre-board?  post-board?
10)  Is the second Voltaic Key really optimal?
12)  Should I run Balance in the main?
13)  Should Fact be omitted because it is not a combo piece, this is a combo deck and it costs too much?
15)  Is the 3rd Argivian Find really needed?

2) I think it should be combined between Drain & Misdirection.
3) Yes, because Intuition has more priority then TfK and Gush is playable after an Intuition.
6) In my testings, I hold the most time too much lands on hand, so i think  land#14 can be cutted.
7) Definitely, because it's a offensive and defensive spell. and it's probably the best spell against Storm.dec
8) Pre-boarded it looks enough, but post I'm not sure. because as soon as this deck goes broken on tournament some Extract will be in sideboards... so I want to have another winpossibilty post-boarded. but what?
10) Yes it's, that allows you more flexibility and more "random combo" I think 2 is the right number.
12) I do, and hmm how to describe... brutally!
13) I also thought that it's too slow, but its easy to have  on second or third turn. so I wouldn't cut it.
15) Yes it's, because so you've mostly 1 on hand and win with the first Intuition. and also for the safety against artifact destruction.

I play & tested with this list:

Intuition Combo:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald

2 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault

1 Darksteel Colossus

4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Mana Drain
1 Balance

3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Fact or Fiction

4 Intuition
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

3 Argivian Find
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Echoing Truth

Sideboard:
4 Orim's Chant
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 (look at 8) above) maybe Sundering Titan

What do you believe about this? I'm looking forward to discuss the deck.

Peace
-Qube

[Implacable]

I'd definitely take Mana Drain over Misdirection: here's why.  Your deck is a combo-control list with a very heavy card draw suite.  Therefore, it should have strategic superiority over most slower control decks.  Misdirection is used to overpower slow control decks by winning counter wars; that's not necessary, because you should beat them anyway.  Mana Drain, on the other hand, is used to control other decks, and has the side-benefit of fueling a very mana-hungry deck.

Also, I don't really see a need for Balance.  So with your list I'd cut two MisDs for Drains and then cut the Balance for something - maybe Misdirection, if you felt you needed more counter backup, maybe Tormod's Crypt.

That aside, looks like a solid White list.  I really like the addition of Gush, and feel pretty good about Ponder, though I don't like it as much. 

My one problem so far's been one that White would help, ironically; Stax has been a little iffy for me.  Currently, I'm trying out Annul, but I've also tried out a Red splash for Rack and Ruin and also a Rebuild plan.  Thoughts?

[Qube]

I'd definitely take Mana Drain over Misdirection: here's why.  Your deck is a combo-control list with a very heavy card draw suite.  Therefore, it should have strategic superiority over most slower control decks.  Misdirection is used to overpower slow control decks by winning counter wars; that's not necessary, because you should beat them anyway.  Mana Drain, on the other hand, is used to control other decks, and has the side-benefit of fueling a very mana-hungry deck.

Also, I don't really see a need for Balance.  So with your list I'd cut two MisDs for Drains and then cut the Balance for something - maybe Misdirection, if you felt you needed more counter backup, maybe Tormod's Crypt.

That aside, looks like a solid White list.  I really like the addition of Gush, and feel pretty good about Ponder, though I don't like it as much. 

My one problem so far's been one that White would help, ironically; Stax has been a little iffy for me.  Currently, I'm trying out Annul, but I've also tried out a Red splash for Rack and Ruin and also a Rebuild plan.  Thoughts?

Mana Drain vs Misdirection:

I tested with 4 Mana Drain as well as with 2/2 Drain & Misdirection. My thoughts about add Misdirections are the following:
If I can start, I will be the player who play first something lethal and then the opponent have to counter that and then I'm able to counter for free.
If I've  open, most good opponent didn't play anything expensive or any brokenness without any counterbackup. so I've to start with playing anything like Intuition or TfK. and so (look first argument) I've not need  to push through a counter of the opponent.
If he can start, I'm able to counter a first turn Recall, Thoughtseize. It's not much, but with Drain you can't.
Misdirection also can handle with bounce, artifact destruction, Hymn to Tourach (In our Meta, Switzerland, at every tournament at least 2 suidecks), Pact of Negation, Mind Twist.
And for the most important Recall. if it's possible to Misd a Recall, I will win the game mostly.
I didn't like to have multiple Drains on hand. with 2 you've often 1 in your hand but never 2. and it's not bad to have Misd & Drain on hand. For me the free playing of Misdirection won me several games, because I can go broken on turn 2 with a counterbackup. For me it was more flexible.
But maybe the right number would be 3Drains/1 Misdirection, 3Drains/2Misdirection. I don't know jet...

Balance wins singlehand games against Fish and is the best solution against a lone DSC. with the 13 lands, the opponent most loose more lands then you. but I play it as an answer and to get out problems. I think it's very good for the deck, but will test specially this card more and in details.
One Situation come for me often: I've 1-2 Lands out, a good artifact acceleration, toptutor on hand and balance. top tutor on will and play balance. opponent has to sac a land discard 2 cards and in my turn i win with will. and its good if mana denial is successfully to blow the lands of the opponent too. But it's a situate card and not easy to play.

About white also with the sideboard. I've thought about add a volcanic for side Rack and Ruin or also because Ancient Grudge (as we saw in past the Intuition/Grudge-Piles are very broken, but for this we would need red and/or green, the flashback costs are more important) I just don't know how would that be for the manabase?

But against staxx, post-boarded there are a lot things like 3 Seal, 1 Rebuild, 1 Hurkyl's Recall, (Pithing Needle if the play crucible&waste and welder). If this isn't enough, so what could be change/add?

Sorry I've something some problems to find the right words to describe what I want to say, so if you don't understand anything please let me know that!

Peace
-Qube

Edit: look post down. Metalworker with Welder changed 

[Troy_Costisick]

But against staxx, post-boarded there are a lot things like 3 Seal, 1 Rebuild, 1 Hurkyl's Recall, (Pithing Needle if the play crucible&waste or metalworker). If this isn't enough, so what could be change/add?

Very small detail: Pithing Needle won't work on Metalworker.  It would work on Welder, though.

[meadbert]

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald

2 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault

1 Darksteel Colossus

4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Mana Drain
1 Balance

3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Fact or Fiction

4 Intuition
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

3 Argivian Find
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Echoing Truth

Sideboard:
4 Orim's Chant
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 (look at 8) above) maybe Sundering Titan

What do you believe about this? I'm looking forward to discuss the deck.

Peace
-Qube

I really like the main deck.  In general running only 13 lands makes me nervous, but with Ponder and Gush added this becomes a much more viable solution.  I am not sold on the inclusion of Balance, but it is randomly good against decks.  I know that there have been a ton of times in the past where I really wished that a Drain had been Misdirection.  Also, while Misdirection is terrible against Stax, there is already so much Stax hate in the board that I can never figure out which cards to board out.  While Misdirection hurts against Stax pre-board, post board I can just swap it for an additional Pithing Needle or Seal of Cleansing.  I could see going to 3 Drains and a 1 Misdirection.

I believe the sideboard has some room for Improvement.  The problem as I see it is that there are too few cards to deal with Dredge.  I realize that Orim's Chant can be very powerful against Dredge having been on the other end of Orim's Chant while playing against Eric Becker several times.  Chant is best in a combo deck that is looking to win quickly which this is.  Perhaps Chant allows for for a better Dredge matchup.  The reason I like Echoing Truth is because of the Flexibility.  Dredge frequently opens with Chalice shutting off your Crypts.  To recover you really want bounce.  Truth is amazing here to remove Chalice so you can Crypt.  If instead your opponent did not have Chalice or if you do not have Crypt then Truth is still golden for resetting the number of Zombies in play to 0.  That is why I like a mixture of Crypts, Needles and Truths to fight Dredge.  All 3 cards are also flexible enough to help in other matchups.

One thought that I had, but I have not tested because I have recently only been testing B/U versions is Planar Void.

Planar Void sounds bad in that it removes your yard as well, however keep in mind that you can Argivian Find back a combo piece in response to the Planar Void trigger.  This means you can still pay   EOT till grab both combo pieces with Intuition + Find in hand.

Also, Planar Void works well with Finds in that once Dredge removes Planar Void you can just find it back.  It means you sort of function as though you have 7 Planar Voids.  Unlike Leyline of the Void which can be tough to replay if it is Chained, Planar Void is easily replayed.  Thus, keeping Planar Void in play against Dredge is not tough at all since they are limited to their 3-6 straight removal spells and you have 4 Planar Voids to go with 3 Argivian Find to get them back.

In B/U versions Planar Void is much worse since you cannot Reconstruct combo pieces in response to Planar Void triggers and you cannot Reconstruct Planar Void itself.

I think a second win condition could be huge just because of extract.  Titan and Platinum Angel would be high on my list:

1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives (Fish, Oath, Bridge Tokens, Chalice@2 versus Stax, Welder, etc)
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Backup Win (Titan, Platz, Tez, Sower of Temptation)
4 Planar Void
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Orim's Chant

Chalice@2 is somewhat problematic against Stax.  It dodges both Echoing Truth and Seal of Cleansing and basically means we need Tinker to win.  What I like about Explosives is that Intuition for Explosives + 2xFind neatly dodges Chalice@2 so with 1 card in the board we drastically increase the number of ways to find a solution.  Also, Explosives uses are far ranging.  It is actually a decent candidate for a spot in the main, but I do not like that it is hit by Rod.

[Qube]

A lot good thoughts !

I first also thought, that only run 13 lands is to less, but as you say it should works together with ponder and gush.

I am not sold on the inclusion of Balance, but it is randomly good against decks.  ...
I know that there have been a ton of times in the past where I really wished that a Drain had been Misdirection. I could see going to 3 Drains and a 1 Misdirection. ...

Yes I can see 3 Mana Drain/ 1 Misdirection. But how many staxx you've on your tournament? On our last, there were only 2 Shopdecks, non of them with hardcore "Staxx". And I really love the combination of Drain & Misd on hand.

What for problems do you sea with balance? against every deck with creatures it's good, like fishes, goblin welder, aggro shop, (dredge? never play with balance against dredge,) And the effect is sometime really gamewinning. And I thought to play it as a solution. But maybe it's to much a too situate card. If I would cut this, I would add the Mana Drain #3 to play 3 Drains/ 2 Misd. Or for the Explosives?

I believe the sideboard has some room for Improvement.  ...
One thought that I had, but I have not tested because I have recently only been testing B/U versions is Planar Void. ...
In B/U versions Planar Void is much worse since you cannot Reconstruct combo pieces in response to Planar Void triggers and you cannot Reconstruct Planar Void itself.

I think a second win condition could be huge just because of extract.  Titan and Platinum Angel would be high on my list:

1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives (Fish, Oath, Bridge Tokens, Chalice@2 versus St axx, Welder, etc)
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Backup Win (Titan, Platz, Tez, Sower of Temptation)
4 Planar Void
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Orim's Chant

Chalice@2 is somewhat problematic against Stax.  It dodges both Echoing Truth and Seal of Cleansing and basically means we need Tinker to win.  What I like about Explosives is that Intuition for Explosives + 2xFind neatly dodges Chalice@2 so with 1 card in the board we drastically increase the number of ways to find a solution.  Also, Explosives uses are far ranging.  It is actually a decent candidate for a spot in the main, but I do not like that it is hit by Rod.

Yes the sideboard have to get stronger. Planar Void is a nice idea, but here you also can see the importance that Argivian Find is an instant. Planar Void is very good against dredge, welder and also Goyfs.
My questions about: Do you board it against storm.dec? oath? and how many problems you've got with the own grave? I think it should work. Because it's also possible to just make Tutor-Piles and search the combo with the tutor from the pile.

Against dredge with calice@0 there's also relic of progenitus. you know the dredge very well so how good is relic against dredge?

Against staxx with chalice@2, I also love the Rebuild. It's also very good if you can cycle it to become a card from the top (with one of the toptutor) in hand.

I also really like Explosives and also want to play at least in the Side. But you also say that with the Null Rod, so do you think that the seal are enough against them? Like above Rebuild can also handle with them, but the cost of  could be the problem there.

Orim's Chant I will see in the sideboard, it's also just like a time walk and destroy other storm.dec and works well against dredge as you say. How Eric used them against you with dredge?

Is 1 Pithing Needle enough in the sideboard?

For the "backup-plan" I think it shouldn't be Sower or Tezzeret. Most think, after sawing Vault or Key, at Tezz. so maybe they board something against it. I also thought about the Angel or Titan.

For the last another idea for MB, what's about a singleton Transmute Artifact? It's also good for piles with intuition or gifts. But I ask me if it's necessary enough. I need to test but have too less time this week.

Peace
-Qube

[meadbert]

Regarding Relic versus Planar Void:
Relic is very good and for most other decks I would look at Relic.  For a deck with Argivian Find Relic becomes worse than Planar Void and Tormod's Crypt because you cannot use Argivian Find to bring it back after using it.

Generally I would not board in Planar Void against Long or even Stax.  Planar Void is not that good against Welder because your opponent can use Welder in response to the Planar Void trigger.  Planar Void is solid against Crucible, but I am not sure it is worth it.

Rebuild is solid for sure.

[Qube]

I've made some testing today and I've a huge problem against Staxx! I often loose because I've no multiple bounce like Rebuild or Hurkyls in the deck.
I think the Sideboard should be build around beating Staxx, Ichorid and mana denial decs. But in which combination I'm not sure jet.
8 against Ichorid
6-8 against Staxx
4-6 against mana denial

Some cards that are fighting more than one of these deck are:
Pithing Needle (Wasteland, Bazaar)
Orim's Chant ( very nice also against Staxx, because of the "timewalk"-effect. It gives you the time you need but it's not enough)

Cards to beat Staxx:
Hurkyl's Recall
Rebuild
more Lands
(what also good with blue&black&white?)

Ichorid:
Planar Void (I think 3 are enough)
Pithing Needle (at least 2-3, because you need it fast, so you not have ever the time to cast an Intuition)
Tormod's Crypt

Fish with mana denial:
Balance (I cut this again in MB to play 3Drains/2Misd)
Pithing Needle ->Wasteland
maybe Orim's Chant with kicker

So SB maybe like this:
3 Planar Void
3 Orim's Chant
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Platinum Angel

I can also see the Hurkyl's in the MB and then 3 Seal in the side. But is this enough against staxx? I've a problem jet to figure out a stable sideboard...

Peace
-Qube

[meadbert]

How is Ponder working out?  Perhaps we need that 14th land after all? Perhaps drop down to 3 Drains and 1 MisD to fit the 14th land.

It seems to me that a combination of Seals and Needles should beat Stax.
Generally you want to use Needle to protect your Tundra's from Wasteland or shut off Welder and then use your Seals to remove the most annoying artifacts.  Resistors are not that bad since you spells are cheap you do not draw that many cards or try to generate storm.  Rod is annoying but only stops the win.
Also Imp Seal ->Tinker->DSC is perfectly fine for beating Stax if Imp is still in the main.


We can always use the Nuclear option and include a token Sacred Ground in the board, but that only helps against Strips, Waste and Smokey.

What are the cards that are beating you?
Strip/Waste
Spheres
Rod/Chalice
Welder Recursion
Ramping Smokey
Big Beaters

[Qube]

How is Ponder working out?  Perhaps we need that 14th land after all? Perhaps drop down to 3 Drains and 1 MisD to fit the 14th land.

Ponder is working great, also the Gush. And if the opponent doesn't run Rod or Waste 13 Lands are perfect. So in all other match up i will not miss the land#14. But maybe for safety I re add it. But i need to test more.

It seems to me that a combination of Seals and Needles should beat Stax.
Generally you want to use Needle to protect your Tundra's from Wasteland or shut off Welder and then use your Seals to remove the most annoying artifacts.  Resistors are not that bad since you spells are cheap you do not draw that many cards or try to generate storm.  Rod is annoying but only stops the win.
Also Imp Seal ->Tinker->DSC is perfectly fine for beating Stax if Imp is still in the main.

Absolutely right. Needles are very broken. But as you write you want fast a Needle and then later play Seals. But with 1-2 Needles you can not be sure to have 1 on hand. So you need to play most a Intuition for searching. And if the opponent play: Workshop, Null Rod, go. you need 3 turn just to resolve the Intuition. But i would like to play post-boarded: 1 Turn, land, Needle, (moxes) go. and then you have the time for the rest.
It's the combination of Null Rod and Wasteland, that's the problem.

I cut the Imp Seal. but of course against stax the best way is over Tinker-->DSC.

And I want to thank you for build a deck with Intuition (I love that card).

-Qube

[meadbert]

The other card that is great against both Stax and Dredge is actually Wasteland.  If Stax opens with Shop, Rod and you Waste their Shop then they have some problems since their cards cost more to play.

I actually played Wastelands in Turbo Gush and liked them, but Turbo Gush had 3xCrucible of Worlds in the main which this list does not.

Still Wastelands also function as additional mana sources to help dodge mana denial in general.

[Qube]

from the effect I would like it, but for that we have to change a bit the ground of the deck or not?

But I think if we can good play this deck, also stax is beatable but is still stong.

I will test as soon I found the time.

Peace
-Qube

[meadbert]

A few updates on this deck:

I have dropped Gush.  Gush was a win more.  Basically I was seeing a lot of games where being able to Gush helped me draw counter magic and/or generate an extra mana to win now.  The issue is that even if I had played a Thirst for Knowledge I still would have drawn the counter magic and I could have won a turn later.  The result is that while Gush was sealing up a lot of wins, I was going to win most of those games anyway thus it was a win more card.  Other times Gush was either over costed or set back mana development that it cost the game.  It is still a close call, but at this point I would recommend Thirst #4 over Gush.

Also, Planar Void is amazing against Dredge and a token Sacred Ground makes all of the difference against Stax although it does not address Shop Aggro.
Shop Aggro is less scary than Stax for a few reasons.  First of all Shop Aggro tends to run Thorn of Amethyst which is very powerful against Storm decks or decks with strong draw engines, but less powerful against a deck whose win conditions cost 1 and 2 and that runs more of a tutor engine than a draw engine.
Second of all DSC as a back up win is very powerful against Shop Aggro.
Finally Balance is huge against Shop Aggro.

Here is the most current list:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Time Vault
2 Voltaic Key
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
4 Force Of Will
1 Fact Or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Intuition
4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Echoing Truth
4 Mana Drain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Argivian Find
1 Enlightened Tutor
sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Planar Void
3 Thoughtseize
1 Sacred Ground
3 Seal Of Cleansing
1 Balance

[heiner]

-Do you think the 14th land is needed? I have a lot of hands with either too few or too many lands. It just sucks not having 4 brainstorms availlable anymore.

-do you like the 8 fetchlands?

-How good is Imperial Seal? I have not been playing it and am ok so far.

-I saw no game vs. combo with 2 duress MD so now I am playing 4, maybe 3 is enough.

-Why echoing truth? Is there any non artifiact thread you are afraid of. I can only think of magus but he is not worth replacing hurkyl or rebuild with echoing truth, I think.


I will play the dec in a tournament tomorrow, keep you updated.

[madlucas]

I think that a good reason to play Echoing Truth over Hurkyl's Recall could be an active Goblin Welder or maybe an early Oath of Druids.