Elves! Top Eight at Myriad

[v4ino]

Rich,

Glad to see that you have joined me in the ranks of those playing "underpowered" decks and putting up results, with Steve writing about Sui it seems 5 Moxes and every other card on the restricted list may not be place to start when writing a decklist. Trend?

Congratulation on taking a chance and having success!!!

[Nehptis]

Been doing a little more testing and reviewing the PT Elves decks for some tech.

1) This is the most fun deck I've ever goldfished!
2) Cord of Calling / Weird Harvest are on the fringe of being playable.
3) Thorn of Amethyst might be a good SB call instead of Root Maze.
4) Wirewood Symb is the weakest creature in the deck. But, still seems to be the best available card.
5) The most difficult aspect of playing the deck is remembering that Wirewood is NOT an ELF! (e.g. can't be tapped to Birch or Heritage).

[nataz]

more shocking to me then the color, is the composition of this combo deck. Its all combo and no protection. Every other combo deck that I can think of in vintage is able to fit some kind of protection in. Duress, Thoughtseize, FOW, MisD, etc., are all common cards. That said, forget combo, and just look at type 1 in general. How many viable decks out there can say that its only play is to race their opp?

Given this, I'm curious how much legs this idea really has.

This isn't. It is, however, more consistent. It is also more resilient to control elements. It fails more gracefully in that when its combo is stunted it has a perfectly viable alternate route to victory. Someone may play this over Ad Nauseam for similar reasons that one may opt to play TPS over Meandeck Tendrils.

okay, fair point, but why play this over TPS then? Does a beatdown plan B override the ability to run X protection (Pitch Counters or Discard) if we assume a similar speed and execution of game plan?

figure, similar to TPS this deck has a good game vs. control, and a weaker game against faster combo. Both decks don't like to see chalice and sphere effects, but I'd assume elves is better against rod. Elves has a non-traditional plan B (beatdown with many creatures) as opposed to the traditional combo plan B (beatdown with 1 creatures - DSC). Non-traditional is obv better at first since its less likely to be answered (who runs infest?), but it seems more resource intensive then a simple Tinker -> DSC.

Whatever though, just curious on your thoughts on why you played it.

That said, best budget deck ever?

[T00L]

more shocking to me then the color, is the composition of this combo deck. Its all combo and no protection. Every other combo deck that I can think of in vintage is able to fit some kind of protection in. Duress, Thoughtseize, FOW, MisD, etc., are all common cards. That said, forget combo, and just look at type 1 in general. How many viable decks out there can say that its only play is to race their opp?

Given this, I'm curious how much legs this idea really has.

This isn't. It is, however, more consistent. It is also more resilient to control elements. It fails more gracefully in that when its combo is stunted it has a perfectly viable alternate route to victory. Someone may play this over Ad Nauseam for similar reasons that one may opt to play TPS over Meandeck Tendrils.

okay, fair point, but why play this over TPS then? Does a beatdown plan B override the ability to run X protection (Pitch Counters or Discard) if we assume a similar speed and execution of game plan?

figure, similar to TPS this deck has a good game vs. control, and a weaker game against faster combo. Both decks don't like to see chalice and sphere effects, but I'd assume elves is better against rod. Elves has a non-traditional plan B (beatdown with many creatures) as opposed to the traditional combo plan B (beatdown with 1 creatures - DSC). Non-traditional is obv better at first since its less likely to be answered (who runs infest?), but it seems more resource intensive then a simple Tinker -> DSC.

Whatever though, just curious on your thoughts on why you played it.

That said, best budget deck ever?

I've been testing with the extended version of the deck and I guess the best way to describe it is like imagine you're going off with long and you end up coming up short for some reason. Now imagine that all your moxes and dark rituals can now attack your opponent. Its not a matter of it being more resource intensive than tinker as much as your resources ARE the tinker. Know what I mean?

[Troy_Costisick]

okay, fair point, but why play this over TPS then?

-Cause it's cheaper
-It's a lot of fun
-The deck is competivie
-If you're an Extended or Standard player, you probably have most of these cards
-You don't like Storm decks
-To put a thumb in the eye of those who spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars making a deck
-To throw a kink into your local meta
-It's new and different
-How long has it been since mono-green was any good?
-You like elves in general

There's lots of reasons to play this deck.

[mike_bergeron]

okay, fair point, but why play this over TPS then?

-You don't like Storm decks

/confused

Oh yah, concordant crossroads alternate win version. 

The new Tier 1
------------------------
Elves!
Decks that play anti Elves! cards

[Troy_Costisick]

I should have been more specific and said "Tendrils decks"

[Nehptis]

-It's a lot of fun

Being a long time Vintage player with P9 and always playing something that uses most of my Power, I can honestly say this is the first deck in a long while that made me not miss my Full power.

Going Lotus, Rit, Yawgwill seems so boring when I can do crazy stuff with an Elf!  Nettle Sentinel is my new favorite Vintage card!

The funny thing is I never had to Proxy anything.  But, now I might have to Proxy some Elves!

[Eastman]

okay, fair point, but why play this over TPS then?

-To throw a kink into your local meta

This is an important point which I think is too often overlooked.  Rich showed up with something really unexpected, and people misplayed against it alll day.  He didn't need duress, because people didn't know which cards were the crucial combo elements, and wound up wasting control on stupid elves that he didn't need. 

I think we've frequently seen that if you bring a tier 2 deck that no one anticipates, you can often bust open a meta.  Not only will your opponents misplay because they don't understand your deck, but they simply don't have the sideboard pre-built to hose you.  This is how I was able to X-0 for several months with Cerebral Assassin when I first put it together, and also how GI hit finals at Waterbury with 'Gro-Still.'  [I've got a number of other examples, but I won't reminisce]  Point is, unexpected is usually just as good as overpowered.

[Almighty]

Do have any problems going nuts if you can't resolve Heritage Druid? Can you make enough mana with Birchlore Ranger to go into machine gun mode with the untappers easily enough?

[LordHomerCat]

Do have any problems going nuts if you can't resolve Heritage Druid? Can you make enough mana with Birchlore Ranger to go into machine gun mode with the untappers easily enough?

I would recommend playing the deck and seeing for yourself.

But, lets say you have a single Sentinel and a Birchlore Rangers out.  Every elf is essentially a free cantrip, because you tap sentinel and rangers, play the elf, untap rangers, draw a card from glimpse.  Then you tap that new elf and sentinel and play another elf and repeat this until you draw a second glimpse or a sentinel or a heritage druid or a summoners pact.  Quirion ranger makes even more mana because you gives you a free untap.

[JACO]

Just goldfish the deck. You'll eventually see all of the interactions between the Elves. If nothing else, by turn 2 you'll often just have emptied your hand, even if your Glimpse or Skullclamp gets countered, and you can just beat down for 3 turns and kill your opponent.

The reason this deck is good is not only because it regularly goldfishes by turn 2, but also the opponent will often just be unable to answer a quick swarm of creatures, similar to how they are unable to answer a horde of Goblins by turn 3. If your opponent counters your attempt to go off, just beat down. If they don't have a Force or Drain, win. TPS is full of more busted cards, but it's only other avenue of attack is via Tinker>DSC. Elves is less busted, by is much easier to attack an opponent from a different angle with.

[Zexerous]

I actually run something like this, but I run brain freezes and tendrils of agony in addition to the grapeshot for other types of win conditions. In the local tourney I play in usually, I managed to use all of my various win conditions as well.  I'm also using Elvish Prominades as well for additional mana sources. I'm also considering dropping a city of solitude to make my turns safer. Not sure if these are good ideas or not, but overall I'm pleased with how this deck is running.

[The Atog Lord]

Zexe,

Brain Freeze and Tendrils are both worse than Grapeshot. Neither handles Platinum Angel. Brain Freeze does not kill the opponent right away if he has Gaea's Blessing or even Darksteel Colossus in his deck. Tendrils is nearly useless when not going off, whereas Grapeshot can at least handle opposing creatures such as Goblin Welder. After discussing many kill mechanisms with Owen, I believe that Grapeshot is the best.

As for Elvish Prominade, that seems win more. It is only good if you already have several Elves in play, at which time you're already in fine shape.

Now, the Fastbond suggestion has been a solid one. I'm still testing it, but initial results are promising.

[Zexerous]

Atog: I tried PMing you this, but I guess open discussion is best discussion.

Actually, I have Viridian Shaman's sideboarded in for artifact destruction just in case I do come against a Plat angel, I do run all three cards for various win conditions, so in case I have to grape shot a plat angel, then roll out with a few more spells for a brain freeze/tendrils. The card shop that I play at tends to run rather creature heavy with a few exceptions, but I really had no problems pulling of a double brain freeze for 27 and 30 by turn 5 at the latest or a tenrils for 20 earlier than that. I was using lanowar elves along side elves of deep shadow just in case I couldn't pull a birchwood for black mana. Once again, I'm not sure if these are high calibur ideas still, but they seemed to work pretty solid for me. Oh, also land grants were damn fantastic cards for getting my nettles to untap for free at that and bring a land into play in case I hadn't played one that turn.

oh and I keep Mercy Killings in the deck in case of indestructables. green spell for my nettles and it makes the player sacrifice the creature, sure they get a butt load out of the D.C. but strangely I'm comfortable with that.

edit: I also dropped a regal force for like 21 cards. I, uh, forgot about a good deal of my tokens, that was rather amateurish of me. >_>

[dark burn]

Does anyone have a way to beat TPS with this deck.  If they dont have counters you are just faster than them.  If they have the counter I would think they would go off on turn 4-5 and win before you can beat them to death with the elves.  Is there any way to win through force?

[The Atog Lord]

Gents,

I do run all three cards for various win conditions, so in case I have to grape shot a plat angel, then roll out with a few more spells for a brain freeze/tendrils

Just build up storm to 23, and then cast Grapeshot. Send four copies at the Angel and 20 at the opponent. Having more than one kill spell in the main will just make you fizzle more often and won't help you win games.

Oh, also land grants were damn fantastic cards for

...losing games to Force of Will. Plenty of times, I'll keep a single land hand. If that land is a Land Grant, then the game is lost should the opponent have a single Force.

oh and I keep Mercy Killings in the deck in case of indestructables.

There aren't any indestructibles that you care about. If the opponent has somehow assembled Platinum Angel and Slobad, then you've lost. Otherwise, I wouldn't be concerned about them. DSC is the least of your concerns with this deck. He's not fast enough to matter much, and he gives you two more turns to win.

For TPS, I'd try a combination of Teeg, Thorn, and Root Maze depending on the metagame.

[lennin]

is quirion ranger rly good? ive been playing with pact of negation and i dont know if ranger is needed

[Metanoia]

So, that's it. Elves was a blast to play; it has many lines of play at a given time and is a very decision-intensive deck. Is it optimized? No -- I keep having the feeling that, given the breadth of the Vintage card pool, I must be missing something. But it performed very well, and while the Stax matchup needs a bit of work, I'm sure that future versions of this deck could be made stronger against it. I was very confident against the other six decks I could have faced in the top eight.

Any news on this deck? Has anyone else tried it out? Any new ideas on the Stax matchup?

Maybe maindeck Thoughtseize?

How about adding:
4 Elves of Deep Shadow (for Llanowar or Fyndhorn) and Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal and Fastbond for 4 Wirewood Simbiote?

Fastbond seems really good, especially with Quirion Ranger

[TheBigShow]

i like street wraith in it.  not sure if that would b "news".

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