WGB aggro

[Miaou]

Just wanted some feedback on a list I have been working on, that I am having a lot of fun with.
First, the list:

Mana (22)

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Pearl
4x Windswept Heath
2x Flooded Strand
2x Savannah
2x Scrubland
1x Bayou
2x Plains
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine

Creatures (22)

4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Gaddock Teeg
3x Aven Mindcensor
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

Spells (16)

3x Duress
3x Thoughtseize
4x Null Rod
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Demonic Consultation

SB
4x Seal of Cleansing
3x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Viridian Shaman
1x Duress

Quick overview of the cards:
Manabase: I feel that 22 lands is the right number, as with 5x strip effects getting mana can be tight at times. What I am unsure about is whether or not the second Plains should be a Forest or a Swamp.

Creatures:
Goyf: beater plain and simple
Bob: Null Rod means no Skullclamp and I do enjoy refilling my hand so this guy seems perfect.
Gaddock Teeg: This guy is just brutal against combo, and has the additional benefit of annoying control decks (gifts, Tez, FoF, etc.). Being legendary, I believe 3 is the right number.
Canonist: Once again cheap beater with a great disruptive element. Helps against control and combo. Too bad he is an artifact.
Mindcensor: Helps nicely with the mana denial theme of the deck, and messes up tutoring. He just turns out to be expensive at the start, hence only 3.
ESG: Most of my threats cost 2 mana. So being able to power something out 1st turn is really critical if I do not have any Duress effects.

Spells:
6 Duress: Having a first turn Duress is the perfect start for this deck. Why don't I play more then? I can't find the room. I could maybe cut the Mindcensors, but I feel they are way too powerful to omit. I have also considered cutting a Plains for another, but I am scared of mana screw.
4 Null Rod: Not much explanation needed...
4 StP: Cheap and effective. There are usually some aggro decks in my meta, and this is the best solution to them.
2 Tutors: Demonic Tutor is pretty obvious, but maybe not the Consultation. I like it as the deck is so redundant, that it very very rarely backfires and basically gets me any piece of disruption I need at instant speed.

The SB is just for reference, but what I have been trying to find is a 3 CC card that could help me answer enchantments and artifacts. Krosan Grip comes to mind but I am not sure it is that efficient against Oath considering their Duress'. So right now I am running Viridian Shaman even though it only helps against artifacts.

As you've probably guessed it the Oath match up isn't all that hot. Shops and combo really depends on who is going 1st and if they have the godly 1st turn or not.
Control however is a good match

Anyways, thanks for reading and if you have any suggestions/criticism please give it!

[nineisnoone]

I've never been a fan of Spirit Guides.  Just a personal thing, it always feels too "all-in" to me.

Also never been happy with Mindsensor.  Just comes down too slow, but it is effective one it is enabled.

Krosan Grip is very good.  I've found oath is usually more blue than black, so going through counters is better than being a discard target.  I just worry more about handling a fast Oath then a late oath, since with creatures it is possible to just race. That's why I run Charm.  Plus, untapping a creature or Vial is a useful thing.  If I was running a slower BUG style deck I think Grip would be the right call. 

I would also go Zealot over Shaman.

SB Jitte?  For anti-creatures?  I would just add more removal so you don't have to worry about conflicts with Rod.

I'm a fan of Vial aggro....

4   Windswept Heath
3   Savannah      
4   Scrubland      
3   Flooded Strands   
3   Bayou      
1   Bazaar of Baghdad
            
4   Dark Confidant
4   Tarmogoyf   
3   Vexing Shusher
4   Tidehollow Sculler
3   Children of Korlis
3   Javelineers

4   AEther Vial   
4   Thoughtseize
4   Duress
1   Mox Jet   
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Black Lotus   
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Demonic Consultation
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Life From the Loam
1   Oath of Ghouls
1   Raven's Crime

SB
3x Pithing Needle
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Spurnmage Advocate
3x Gleeful Sabotage
3x Deglamer

[Miaou]

There are several resemblances between our builds (core creature base) but some key differences as well, some of which I don't agree on.

First of all, I just want to say that I am not 100% sold on the Mindcensors, however they are a nice disruptive creature once it hits. I don't necessarily think they are too slow, as with Moxen and ESG they can come out quite fast. They would be the first to go if I wanted to try out another creature though.

That being said, I really believe that the ESGs belong in the deck. The best disruptive threats that the deck has are at 2 CC I feel. Be it Null Rod (more on that later), Teeg against combo or Canonist, you want to have these guys out asap. Having them out first turn can mean that you dodge a Duress or avoid a Mana Drain. Early on they are pitched to get the good stuff out fast, and later on they become a vanilla 2/2 beater. In your deck they could allow you to combine a turn 1 Duress and Vial which seems pretty huge.

Also the lack of Strip effects strikes me as weird. They can act as mini Time Walks slowing down your opponent. This is exactly why I have included Null Rods in favor of Vials. While the latter does speed you up and allow you to do some neat tricks, I would just rather shut down my opponent or at the very least slow him down for my attacks to win.

As for the creature base, while I do like the Javelineers, I feel that welders can be handled via the StPs and the Pithing Needles in the board. Hence they seem kind of lackluster especially without Skullclamps. As for the Sculler I have to admit I didn't even consider him. I feel that he doesn't do enough. Sure a discard is nice, but that is why the Duress are here. I would rather have a creature that can add something that I lack such as the Mindcensors. I will be testing them though to see

I shall be testing the Charms against Oath. I like the fact they are never dead and can be used early. My only gripe is that they only hit enchantments. I would have loved something that also hits artifacts. Zealot looks good , but I am scarred he is too green mana intensive against Workshop if he has Wastelands. Once again I shall have to test!

Thanks for the feedback so far!

ps: Jitte for anti-creature is fine I think as I side out the rods against aggro

[Zygon]

I like it!  I've been playing a very very similar list at my last three events but with mediocre results.  I'm very new to playing fish-style decks (I'm a NE 'drainer for the most part) so I'm fighting the learning curve.

I also don't particularly like the idea of running so many ESGs but I understand the importance of having a turn one drop - how have they worked out for you?  If you're running a set I can't imagine not playing vexing shusher.  He's pretty solid overall and acts as anti-chalice@2 - which completely hoses your game.  Has demonic consultation seen any play?

I'm also weighing the usefulness of mindcensor.. I also think he's great once he's down and tricky and all but he's expensive.. but he also evades and beats pretty effectively.. so I'm still debating.

I think my worst matchups so far are oath and stax despite playing so many permanents.  Unfortunately my SB is a mess.  I'll try a set of seals next time.

Here's my current list:

3 ethersworn canonist
3 vexing shusher
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
3 aven mindcensor
3 gaddock teeg
2 jutun grunt

3 duress
2 thoughtseize

4 null rod
 
1 demonic tutor
2 swords to plowshare
2 smother

1 elvish spirit guide
1 mox pearl
1 mox emerald
1 mox jet
1 lotus petal
1 black lotus
3 wasteland
1 stripmine
3 bayou
2 scrubland
2 savannah
3 polluted delta
1 windswept heath
1 swamp
1 plains
1 forest

[nineisnoone]

The thing is you run Duress/Thoughtseize, so those are fine turn 1 plays. I understand that accelerating is important, but I don't see a pressing need to do that when you have fine turn 1/2 plays normally.  As far as speeding past counters and discard, honestly my answer to that would be to increase threat density.  If more of my cards are threats to theirs, then they can counter them but I'll just keep drawing and playing until they run out of answers.  Whereas if you try to sneak past it, you are relying on the chance of getting it early and if they do answer it, then you have fewer threats to win the attrition battle with.  (Oath of Ghouls is in the SB to help win those)

As far as Waste/Strip goes, I don't really run mana denial elements. If I ran Null Rod, I would run them.  Often times they end up being a Time Walk for the opponent, if I need colored mana.  I rarely run mana denial as a minor element to a deck. 

I don't know how good Charm would be in your deck.  Untapping Vial is usually my strongest non-enchantment play.  Though, I suppose I can ground a Akroma/Hellkite to block it if necessary.  But I'm not sure what it gives you.

I would run Deglamer (Deals with DSC) or Gleeful Sabotoge (Conspire to hit 2) for you.

If I was worried about DSC (not really 2x Tutors and 4x Swords main deck), I would run Deglamer.  If I was worried about Shops I would run Gleeful.  (But I feel like Oath is enough).

I also don't particularly like the idea of running so many ESGs but I understand the importance of having a turn one drop - how have they worked out for you?  If you're running a set I can't imagine not playing vexing shusher.  He's pretty solid overall and acts as anti-chalice@2 - which completely hoses your game.  Has demonic consultation seen any play?

Vexing is very good.  It was the last cut in the build, and the 1st card I'm looking to put into it.

[Miaou]

Zygon:

I thing you convinced me to go with Vexing Shusher instead of the Mindcensors. That slow was kind of free. However considering the mana requirements of Shusher, I am thinking of going:
-3 Mindcensors
-1 Plains
+2 Shushers
+1 Duress
+1 Forest
Reason being that early game, I will undoubtedly grab a Scrubland for the Duress, making the double green more of a mid-game play. And with the 2 tutors I think it should be fine. The Basic Forest is there so that I can reliably keep at least one green source of mana out even against Workshop.
The free spot in the SB from the Duress will probably be a 3rd Shusher.
Demonic Consultation really is great. The only thing that it cannot grab reliably is Strip Mine and Lotus which is a shame, but it is almost always better than Demonic Tutor in this deck I find (1CC instant...).

About your build, I have a few questions:
What's up with the Smothers? DSC being such a menace against our types of decks, I cannot see myself not running less than 4x Swords to Plowshares.
Same question with the Grunts. Do find yourself lacking a big finisher? Or is it against Painter decks that might be rampant in your area?
And finally your mana base seems iffy. I have trouble seeing how you will be able to grab the three basics that you need. I would be tempted to cut 2 Bayou and to add 2 Windswept Heath. Also , but that is just me, I would cut the Petal for an extra ESG

Nineisnoone:
I do agree that the Duress/TS are awsome turn 1 plays. However running 7 (or even 8 as you do) does not guarantee that I shall have one in my opening hand. And especially if I am on the play the last thing I want to do is: land, go. You have Vial which is great against control, but I am out of plays. Against combo playing a Vial or a Javelineer is about the same as land,go. Hence my use of acceleration. I want to have a reliable first turn play and if I cannot have access to a Duress effect, a disruptive creature or Null Rod is the next best thing.

I shall be trying Gleeful Sabotage as a SB card against Oath and Shops. Does Conspire work the same way as Replicate (as in dodge Chalice and counterspells)?

Vexing is very good.  It was the last cut in the build, and the 1st card I'm looking to put into it.

Have to agree here, I had it considered in other builds including red and green but didn't consider it here, which was a mistake on my part.

[nineisnoone]

As for ESG, well I understand your reasoning, but to me it's not worth it. At the very least I would advise you not running the full 4, perhaps just 3.  You don't really want multiples.  You deck really isn't that mana hungry.  After the first turn, ESG isn't that useful since you can cast spells normally.

I believe so.  It would be a 2nd copy of the spell, but it wouldn't be played... so it would require 2 counterspells to be countered and the 2nd copy isn't "played" so only the first one would be counter by the Chalice trigger.

[Zygon]

Zygon:

About your build, I have a few questions:
What's up with the Smothers? DSC being such a menace against our types of decks, I cannot see myself not running less than 4x Swords to Plowshares.
Same question with the Grunts. Do find yourself lacking a big finisher? Or is it against Painter decks that might be rampant in your area?
And finally your mana base seems iffy. I have trouble seeing how you will be able to grab the three basics that you need. I would be tempted to cut 2 Bayou and to add 2 Windswept Heath. Also , but that is just me, I would cut the Petal for an extra ESG

Actually Sundering Titan has been my bane as of late, not DSC.  He trumps my mana base and can race for the win if my board position is shaky.  I do play 2 extra StPs in the SB but i haven't shifted to all 4 maindeck.  Originally, I played the 2 of each to avoid meddling mage and chalice locking down one of them.. I have no problem trying 4 and maybe boarding in smother if needed.

With the grunts:  I was finding myself without a finisher more often than desired, or staring down a Viashino Heretic.  This was the first time I tried out some grunts and I wasn't displeased but it requires more testing.  The anti-synergy with goyf is obvious but I think that little extra beef is necessary (at least in my field).

[Dr.KnowMaD]

 I have always been a firm believer in the elvish spirit guides.  They are fantastic at speeding up the first few turns and gaining much needed leverage in a deck like this one, and I wouldn't play this list without them.  I can almost always use the mana at any point, (need to play an early or mana short Krosan Grip, no problem).  Though I am a weirdo and also play with a single rancor in my build like this.  A rancor on goyf is very good, rancor on a spirit guide isn't bad either.

I have won lots of games with a rancor on a Mishra's factory (another personal favorite) and laughing all the way home.  Like I said though, I am a weirdo and thats just my style.

 Good call on the Vexing Shusher, I have been playing this bear for a bit and just knowing my swords/control is going to stick is worth it alone.   

                                                                                                                                                        When the going gets weird, the weird get going
                                                                                                                                                                            Dr.KnowMaD

[Miaou]

I'm with you all the way on the ESG Dr.KnowMaD
Although that one Rancor does seem extremely random. Don't get me wrong, I love Rancor, but I don't see how I can fit any in there. If I were playing two colors, or without Wastelands, I could see myself running Factories. However I really do believe that the damage done by Wasteland is better than the Factories. But that could be play type differences.

One thing I am having issues with though is Threads of Disloyalty. It is a pretty common sideboard card here in most blue based control decks. Be it Tez control, Painter or Control Slaver. And when they steal a Goyf, well I start crying...
The problem here is that I want to SB in my Pithing Needles (on Welder and/or Time Vault). And I really don't see the benefit in SBing in enchantment removal. So what I am thinking is to either add something like Ronom Unicorn which is a pretty narrow card, but that serves the purpose of not being dead and getting rid of the Threads. Another thing I have been considering, but it's a lot more random is Mother of Runes. What I like about it is that not only does it get rid of the Threads but it can also make you creatures immune to other forms of removal. Against aggro it can mean that one of my creatures can push through a wall of defenders. As I said random, but right now I don't have many ideas

[nineisnoone]

Mother of Runes... how very Legacy of you.   
There really aren't any good answer to threads (off the top of my head).  Another random answer would be to play Spirit Link.  But yeah, I would imagine Runes would be better.  Mostly I just have to swallow it. But I do have Skullclamp and Oath in the board, that draws me 2 on a chump block and recurs a blocker if it comes down to it.

Also, I'm looking to add in a Dakmor Salvage + Raven's Crime to the deck. 

[Guli]

One thing I am having issues with though is Threads of Disloyalty. It is a pretty common sideboard card here in most blue based control decks. Be it Tez control, Painter or Control Slaver. And when they steal a Goyf, well I start crying...
The problem here is that I want to SB in my Pithing Needles (on Welder and/or Time Vault). And I really don't see the benefit in SBing in enchantment removal. So what I am thinking is to either add something like Ronom Unicorn which is a pretty narrow card, but that serves the purpose of not being dead and getting rid of the Threads. Another thing I have been considering, but it's a lot more random is Mother of Runes. What I like about it is that not only does it get rid of the Threads but it can also make you creatures immune to other forms of removal. Against aggro it can mean that one of my creatures can push through a wall of defenders. As I said random, but right now I don't have many ideas

[Miaou]

I considered Sylvan Safekeeper from your Mr. Gaddock thread Guli, however the main thing that I don't really like about him is that if you draw him after the Threads has resolved, he won't be helping the situation except as acting as a chump blocker, which any creature can do. I shall be trying him out, but I don't think it's what I am looking for.

I have also been tempted to add Raven's Crime, but I was thinking more in lines of Life from the Loam as it can be pretty brutal when paired with strip effects. However if I run LftL, I will be sorely tempted to play Crop Rotation, and I am afraid of steering away from the original intent of the deck by playing too cute. Let me know how Raven's Crime and Darkmor Salvage work out for you, I am interested!

[nineisnoone]

I think you are right Loam being better than Salvage. 
-1 Land -3 Javlineers -1 Teeg
+ 1 Loam +1 Darkblast +1 Vampiric + 1 Raven's Crime +1 Bazaar of Baghdad

[Guli]

I considered Sylvan Safekeeper from your Mr. Gaddock thread Guli, however the main thing that I don't really like about him is that if you draw him after the Threads has resolved, he won't be helping the situation except as acting as a chump blocker, which any creature can do. I shall be trying him out, but I don't think it's what I am looking for.

If you know threads is coming, you can first play safekeeper down or duress before playing a biggy. I don't think your argument is valid. I see tarm/canonist/teeg. And you are asking for protection. Safekeeper is the perfect solution. I like your deck.

edit: stop thinking safekeeper as a creature. It is a counterbalance that stops spot removal and yes in worst case it is a 1/1. But if you want to dedicate slots to keep your creatures on your side of the board alive and kicking, he is your man. Tarm+Keeper = strong vs aggro And another thing. You can outplay land tax with it. Or sac your plains to stop massacre if really needed.

[nineisnoone]

Made some changes.  Added more 1 drop plays for Vial.  Added LftL/Bazaar/Raven's Crime.  The deck is pretty brutal against anything that doesn't run permanents.  The sideboard is mostly attempting to address that.  4x Swords and Advocate for creatures and Oxidize and Sabatoge for enchantments and artifacts.

LftL/Bazaar/Raven's Crime has been strong.  LftL > Dakmor because you can pay 5 Mana to force them to discard 3 cards.  This is often their entire hand.  Darkmor forces you into a 1 mana 1 turn mode, which is better optimally (they only have 1 card) but weaker when you can't get to their hand as much.  I added the token Bazaar to search for to combo with LftL.  Most of the time I've seen people run 4x Bazaar, but honestly I'm fine with it as a 1 of.  I only really want it with LftL or Dark Confidant. 

I also added a Main Deck Oath of Ghouls as that works nicely with Bazaar.  Oath of Ghouls is a card I've enjoyed alot.  It comes in against blue stacks and aggro. 

I cut Cannonist for Bitterblosoom, as Cannonist interfered with Raven's Crime or double Duress plays.

Bitterblosoom gives this deck what it lacks permanents if a Smokestacks comes down.  And blockers against aggro decks.

4   Windswept Heath
3   Flooded Strands   
3   Savannah      
3   Scrubland      
3   Bayou      
1   Bazaar of Baghdad
            
4   Dark Confidant
4   Tarmogoyf   
4   Tidehollow Sculler
3   Children of Korlis
3   Javelineers

4   AEther Vial   
4   Bitterblossom
4   Thoughtseize
4   Duress
1   Mox Jet   
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Black Lotus   
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Demonic Consultation
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Life From the Loam
1   Raven's Crime
1   Oath of Ghouls

SB
3x Pithing Needle
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Gleeful Sabotage
4x

[Guli]

Im curious how will you deal with the tinker plan? It is pretty easy to mystical/vamp in response to duress effects. Plats/DC can cause a lot of problems. I rather see 4 STP in those bitterblossom slots.

[nineisnoone]

Im curious how will you deal with the tinker plan? It is pretty easy to mystical/vamp in response to duress effects. Plats/DC can cause a lot of problems. I rather see 4 STP in those bitterblossom slots.

I admittedly don't have a main deck Tinker plan.  I do have 4 STP in the sideboard and I used to run Deglamer in it as well.  I am considering adding something to the main deck, but until I really like I wont.  I just haven't found any answer that I'm happy with.  The best thing I have main deck is Oath + Korlis and hopefully +12 life.

The card I would consider as a Tinker answer would likely be Mindscensor.  Another possibility that came to mind is also Shadow of Doubt, which can also double as a functional Stifle.  (Hmm... I'll have to try that in BUG fish builds).

Bitterblossom is imo not a card I'm willing to cut.  It chump blocks forever and indirectly removes blockers because if left in checked can put your in the aggressor position.  Board position is the one think that the deck does not deal with and now I feel that it is not the card to remove.  Also is not removable by swords or stealable.  So Goyf + Bitterblossom both pose strong threats that have to be handled in completely different ways.

[Miaou]

Although I tend to agree with Guli that lack of a real Tinker answer MD is problematic, I do like the inclusion of Bitterblossom. I shall definately try that out once I have more time, however I have no clue what to cut, be it MD or SB.
You are right nineisnoone in that Mindcensor is a good Tinker answer. I have gone back to using them MD as I find them really effective in what they do (mana denial and stoping tinker directly or indirectly: via tutors).
With the Mindcensors back MD, I have relegated the 3 Shushers to the SB. Shop is not really present in my meta, and I feel I have a good game against control with the 8 Duress effects.

What I use now against Oath/Shop is 4x Seal of Cleansing (dodges Duress/TS/Chalice at 2 if played early) as well as 2x Aura of Silence. I really like it against Shops (obviously) and it is decent against Oath too. I found that Gleeful Sabotage isn't all that effective in the sense that I can rarely copy the spell, since I need 2 green creatures out at the time. I am considering Krosan Grip instead of the 2 Auras, but I want to test them more first.
So my SB looks something like this right now:
4x Seal of Cleansing
2x Aura of Silence
3x Pithing Needle
3x Vexing Shusher
3x Extirpate

Last but not least, I want to try out Life from the Loam. It seems really good at sealing the deal if you can get a few mana denial elements, but I am afraid it might be overkill.

Finaly nineisnoone, what is your reasoning behind cutting Teeg? I would love to see him instead of Tidehollow Sculler considering you already have 9 discard effects!

[nineisnoone]

I like Tidehallow because.... I love targetted discard.     It's just my favorite effect.  So no dice on moving him.  Plus Teeg can't be a 4-of which makes him a non-Consultation target.  Also if you've stripped their hand he still doesnt stop the draw 7's or Tinker, the only card he really stops here is Gift's Ungiven.

I made Maze of Ith (for Bazaar) my maindeck Tinker answer.  With 3 tutors (if DSC is going to kill you anyways, you might as well Consult for it), including the 1 isn't all that bad an option.  I added an Urborg to be able to get mana out of it if necessary.

I felt a bit creature light, so I made a full 4 Javelineers and Korlis for the Raven's Crime/Life from the Loam combination.  I did enjoy that however.  But am not sure how to fit it in properly.

Realized Plagued Ruskala is better than Javlineers.  Especially with Bitterblossom tokens.

3   Windswept Heath
3   Flooded Strands   
3   Savannah     
3   Scrubland     
3   Bayou     
1   Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1   Maze of Ith
           
4   Dark Confidant
4   Tarmogoyf   
4   Tidehollow Sculler
4   Children of Korlis
4   Plagued Rusalka

4   AEther Vial   
4   Bitterblossom
4   Thoughtseize
4   Duress
1   Oath of Ghouls
1   Mox Jet   
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Black Lotus   
1   Demonic Consultation
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Vampiric Tutor

SB
3x Pithing Needle
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Gleeful Sabotage
4x

[Miaou]

Here is the latest list I have been using. Notable changes are
-3 ESG
+3 Chalice

and

-1 Demonic Consultation
+1 Vexing Shusher

My reasoning is that ESG and Chalice enable me to do something turn 1. Except that the Chalices allow me to potentialy go with the mana denial theme when set at 0, and while not optimal, it can be set at 1 or 2 to really hamper some decks (I'm thinking of you Oath!). While it does affect me too, at least I have the 4x Shushers to help resolve my spells. However with both Chalice and Null Rod maindeck, the moxen that I use are a little less attractive. I think I shall keep at least the Lotus/Jet/Emerald and switch the Pearl for a Scrubland for a more stable mana source.
Also the extra Shusher seems a no brainer with the Chalices.

Mana (22)

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Pearl
4x Windswept Heath
2x Flooded Strand
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Bayou
1x Plains
1x Forest
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine

Creatures (18)

4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Gaddock Teeg
3x Aven Mindcensor
4x Vexing Shusher

Spells (20)

4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
3x Chalice of the Void
4x Null Rod
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Demonic Tutor

SB
3x Krosan Grip
3x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
4x Ray of Revelation
2x Kataki, War's Wage <- not decided on this slot but it needs to be artifact hate

Comments/suggestions?

[nineisnoone]

I like the list. 

Have you tried out Demonic Consultation?  It's been pretty solid for me, usually grabbing me any of my 4x's. 

While Shusher allows you to play Chalice with impunity, I think it should stay at 3x.  Multiple Shushers don't help one another.  And if your first play is Chalice @ 0, then you need to draw two Chalices before you need to play a Shusher.  So I would be happy with 3x Shushers since you only need it for the 2nd and 3rd Chalices you draw.

Ray of Revelation AND Krosan Grip?  That sounds a bit much to my mind, unless if you expect a lot of Oath. 

I love Extirpate, but it's never stuck in any deck that I've built.  How has it been for you?  I've been trying out Marty of Bones for my Graveyard hate which has been decent.

As far as artifact hate goes I would just run Serenity since the only good real artifact you run is Null Rod and that doesn't really conflict with Serenity if you destroy it along with all other Artifacts.

[Miaou]

So there was a 24 man tournament this weekend, and I lost in the T4 using the following list:

Mana (19)

1x Black Lotus
4x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Bayou
1x Plains
1x Forest
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine

Creatures (18)

4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Gaddock Teeg
3x Aven Mindcensor
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

Spells (23)

4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Null Rod
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Seal of Primordium
1x Demonic Tutor

SB
2x Seal of Cleansing
1x Seal of Primordium
3x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Viridian Shaman
2x Diabolic Edict

The field was very combo/fish/control, with only one Workshop, and one Ichorid deck.
Here is a mini report followed by what I felt worked and what didn't.

Round 1: vs Tez with Welders
G1: I get a turn 1 Duress, followed by a turn 2 Bob (who got forced). He then drained a Null Rod and followed with a Tez on his turn fetching T.Vault. I had a Seal of Primordium in hand, destroy his vault and cast a Goyf (who is 6/7). I am sure I can kill him ignoring Tez, but he fetches out a mox and a lotus, and top decks the one card that could save him : will
G2: I have a Pithing Needle (on T.Vault) and a Null Rod on the board, when I Duress him to see a Threads of Disloyalty and a Duplicant. I have an answer to both, so I take a FoW. Unfortunately he top decks a Ingot Chewer as well as Yawgmoth's Will again, and finishes me off from there.

0-1

Round 2: vs Ad Nausem
G1: He goes first drops lots of artifact mana and a land. I Duress take his business spell, follow it up with a Null Rod, and get out a turn 3 Gaddock Teeg with a waste. He scoops to that!
G2: This game he messes up pretty badly, and should have killed me despite my disruption. He cast Ad Nausem as well as Yawgmoth's Will but he messed up along the way. Whew!
1-1

Round 3: vs Mirroir Magique (discussion on the deck in the open forum)
G1: I lead with a Duress, followed by a Gaddock Teeg, and he goes all the way with a couple of Orchard tokens.
G2: Once again I have  a Thoughtseize which slows him down a bit. I follow up with a Null Rod which severely hampers him. I can then cast a Goyf and finish him off.

2-1

Round 4: vs TPS
G1: I Duress him 1st turn. He has 2 rituals, a Grim Tutor, a Mystical Tutor, a Duress and land. I take the Grim. He goes land, mox, go. I cast Bob and pass the turn. EoT he goes for Tinker. He drops a second mox, and gets out a DSC. On my upkeep I reveal a card to Bob and get...a STP! So DSC goes farming, Bob beats down, followed by Gaddock and a Mindcensor to seal the game.
G2: He mulls to 5...and opens with Ritual, Necro. On my turn I Duress and see Tinker, Twister, FoW and random other stuff. I have a STP, so I take his FoW. He gets his DSC which doesn't last very long. However the extra life allows him to draw extra. I eventually kill him after losing a Goyf and a Mindcensor to a Massacre + Twister. However his new hand is mediocre considering the Null Rod on the table, and the new creatures I drew finish him off.

3-1

Round 5: vs Tez
Id
4-1

T8: vs Tez control (I saw he had Oath of Druids in the SB from last round)
G1: He starts with a mulligan to 6 and opens with a Library. Thoughtseize hits him turn 1, and Bob lands turn 2. I then land a Goyf trying to win quickly. He has an Engineered Explosives though and so I lose both creatures. However I still had 2 Goyfs in hand. He handled the second one, but the third did the job.
G2: He has counters to my early threats, and Tinkers a DSC. I had a STP and a Diabolic Edict in hand, so I wasn't very scared. At some point I land a Seal of Primordium, he plays an Oath. I destroy it and play a Seal of Cleansing. That stops his second Oath from activating and Goyf beats down.

T4: vs Mirroir Magique
I know my opponent is going to play better than the previous one, he invented the deck!
G1: I have the god hand: turn 1 Lotus, Chalice, Savannah, Goyf and Teeg. Unfortunately he FoWs the Teeg. I start beating down but I am stuck on one land. I have 2 Duress effects in hand which I cannot take advantage of since I have no black mana. I have enough disruption so that his first combo attempt failed. However he was back at 20 life. I beat again bring him down to 6, but he manages to Channel into Mirror at one life, and combos out from there. Had I drawn another mana source than the Plains, the game was mine
G2: Goyf beats again, while I have both a Pithing Needle (on Top) and a Null Rod out. However he top decks Ancestral Recall, then top decks a shattering spree, getting rid of my 2 artifacts. He activates Top and sees Channel and Mirror in the top 3. He combos out with little difficulty. GG

Thoughts on the deck:
8x Duress is amazing. Gaddock Teeg is better than I thought, I would never cut him even considering the lack of synergy between him and Chalice. Speaking of which, Chalice was great all day, and often slowed down my opponents enough for me to lay down more disruption and eventually kill them. ESG did what I wanted them to do: speed me up. Being able to play a Wasteland AND a Null Rod the same turn is great. He even finished off an opponent. The only card I wasn't sold on was Aven Mindcensor. However I didn't draw him once against control, and didn't play any aggro/fish decks where his evasion ability could make a difference. He was too slow against combo. He might also be too slow against Tinker.
The STP are a must, and 4 of is awsome as DSC is a commonly played threat. The Seals of Primordium are also great. They are very versatile and can really slow down a Tez player.

Anyways, lots of fun to play but really stressful against combo, as once you pass the turn, well you can't do anything. However the disruption package is strong enough to stop them (or at least hinder them enough).

[nineisnoone]

Congrats on the success!  Looking at my list.... I definitely need more work on it.  I ended up preferring my BWU deck so ended up sort of abandoning this one.

I mentioned Mindcensor here, but never really liked him that much personally.  Mostly because you either play him early and allow them to play around it, or you have to pass the turn with 3 mana open which in a sorcery speed deck isn't that great.

I've been liking Shadow of Doubt, as one search cancellation is frequently enough.  It comes out faster by a turn and even cantrips for you.

How was your SB? 
You look like you have a LOT of artifact hate. 
Rule of Law or Cannonists (Rule of Law to avoid incidental artifact hate) in the board might be options if you worry about storm.  8 Duress should be plenty to slow them down to where it Rule of Law would become playable.
Did Extirpate become relevant post-board?  I love the card, but I would probably rather just run Seek/Tidehallow to hit whatever I want in there Deck/Hand.

[Miaou]

The Mindcensors will most probably go. However I want to replace him with another creature, possibly one to strengthen the aggro match up. Even though I lost in the T4, my game against combo is good, and since the Mindcensors are too slow, I'd rather trade them to improve more mediocre match ups.

As for my SB, it was seriously mostly useless I only faced matchups that the main is meant to deal with, so the side wasn't all that great. However I think that some things need to stay there because some match ups need the space. Oath for example is a rough match up. However post side:
-4 ESG
-4 STP
+3 Seals
+3 Extirpate
+2 Diabolic Edict

The reasoning is, post board that annoying Empyrial Archangel comes in. So STP is useless. I don't really need acceleration and even less creatures so the ESG go. I like bringing Extirpate here as with 8 Duress + being on the play most likely game 2 allows me to grab an Oath and remove them all from the game. At least that is my reasoning. The Edicts are good against aggro as well.

Against Workshop I go:
-8 Duress
+3 Seal
+3 Pithing Needle
+2 Viridian Shaman
Needles against wastelands and other abilities, and shaman as a 3 CC artifact removal that also helps in the aggro match up as another creature. I know its alot of artifact removal but I do have 8 cards to side out -_-'

I must admit that I didn't use the Extirpates this tournament, however should I face Ichorid I need more than just the 3 Needles in the SB. There may be better options but I didn't think of any. Actualy against storm combo I tend to go:
-3 Seal
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Extirpate
Reasoning is I can usualy hold them off from comboing, but that only leads them to the decision to go with the tinker plan which I am very vulnerable to. The Extirpate could have been anything though, I will grant you that

Could you list your UWB list you think? I am curious!
Thanks!

[nineisnoone]

Was working on this list, while you were posting, very inspired by your deck.   

1   Strip Mine      
3   Wasteland      

2   Badlands      
2   Scrubland      
3   Bayou      
3   Polluted Delta   
3   Bloodstained Mire

4   Dark Confidant
4   Tarmogoyf   

1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Jet   
1   Mox Emerald
1   Black Lotus   

1   Demonic Tutor
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Entomb
1   Raven's Crime
1   Life from the Loam   

4   Null Rod
4   Chalice of the Void
4   Duress   
4   Thoughtseize
4   Diabolic Edict
3   Hide/Seek   
3   Shadow of Doubt

The biggest addition I've found is Hide/Seek.  This card imo solves so many of the problems I have had with a Duress oriented approach i.e. what if they top deck "X"?  Time Vault, Yawgmoth's Will, and Tinker are all strong top-decks that you fear.

It felt fairly silly not to run a token Badlands to enable the Hide portion of the card making it extremely versatile.

I threw in the Life/Raven/Entomb just because they felt too strong for the slots.  Being able to recursively destroy their hand/land for the inclusion of 3 cards is fairly efficient for card slots.  None of them are really bad draws in their own right's either.  Even though you can't Loam your lands back, being able to turn those dead land top-decks into a discard is better than an extraneous land.  Life can get back your Waste/Strip and even your fetchlands.  Entomb on either of them or Strip+Loam is effectively putting them in your hand.  

Maybe the Edicts should be Swords but by not running Sword I felt better about running a 2nd Badlands, which helps casting Hide which would seem like a fair trade. 

Also, I'm not exactly sure on running Chalice.  But I might be in the minority on that.

[nineisnoone]

My BUW list.

3   Flooded Strand   
3   Polluted Delta   
3   Scrubland      
2   Underground Sea
1   Badlands
3   Wasteland      
1   Strip Mine      
1   Volrath's Stronghold
               
4   Cursecatcher
4   Dark Confidant   
4   Phyrexian Negator

1   Ancestral Recall   
1   Time Walk   
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Jet   
1   Mox Ruby
1   Black Lotus   
4   Null Rod   
1   Vampiric Tutor
4   Duress   
4   Thoughtseize   
4   Diabolic Edict
2   Stifle
2   Daze
3   Hide/Seek

One of the additions I like since I last posted this list is the singleton Volrath's Stronghold which allows you to recur Cursecatchers.  And with Demonic and Vampiric you have a pretty solid chance of getting it into your hand.

The last 6 slot are fairly open to debate.  As is the 4th and maybe 3rd Negator.  I found Negator was important because I needed to be able to finish opponents better.  Seek isn't something I have tried a lot yet, but it seemed good (for the reasons mentioned above).  Shadow of Doubt doubles as a stifle and a counter spell to search effects.

Note:  I'd really love a way to cram Tidehallow into the deck, but I'm not sure how strong it is (I have an irrational love for the card).

Same thing that applies to the above on Badlands/Edict/Swords applies here.

EDIT:  Cut out Tidehallow again for Stile and Daze.

[Miaou]

Thanks for the lists

The first one I think I like best, however I think you are light on creatures. I know you want to disrupt and then beat but I just feel that with 8 creatures sometimes you might not find one when needed. I haven't tested though so it's guess work. On the second list I think you really do need the 4 Negators to finish off the match. That is what is so great with Goyf. Once you have landed enough disruption, he seals the deal surprisingly fast. Negator is often as big so it's all good.

However what I like most from your decklists are the 3x Hide/Seek with a splash for red. I am totaly going to be trying that:
-3 Mindcensor
-1 Plains
+3 Hide/Seek
+1 Taiga

I am really afraid of DSC and the Mindcensors were supposed to stop Tinker, however that never really happened or even appeared to be a possibility. Most decks see a fish type deck and burn an early tutor to grab Tinker, play it and the Mindcensor is useless for what I included him. Hide/Seek however can proactively take out the DSC or can just send it home once it is in play, making me have "7 STP". It also frees up the 3 Seals I had in the SB, which means I can add a more specific creature to the SB to deal with aggro (any idea? ).
Anyways, I can't wait to try this new strat, thanks for that

[Sean Ryan]

I played against a similar deck last weekend and was impressed.  He ran both Glowrider and Thorn, something to consider if TPS is a threat. 

I have had a lot of success with Fish decks over the years and one piece of advice I can give you is drop the tutors.  You need to abuse tempo in order to begin winning and Tutors just slow that down.  Tutoring just gives your opponent more time to set up and either mount a stronger defense or worse just go for the kill.  Hide/seek is a good thought as tinker colossus becomes the main route to victory against you. 

[nineisnoone]

Yeah, in the Bgwr list I definitely would prefer like 2-4 more creatures. 
The same thing in the Buwr list as well. 

Mostly the problem is that outside of Tidehallow (whom is probably my number one candidate) there are a good amount of color issues.  Primarily, now being 4 colors I don't really want a card to be in double secondary colors cutting off options like Meddling Mage or Trygon Predator or Gaddock Teeg.  I'm not really sure what Tidehallow would add specifically outside of being a guarantee of always being decent for something. Kataki might also be a possibility. 

Yeah, I think the tutors might need to go (and on testing the Loam/Raven/Entomb stuff was worse than originally intended).  Mostly they are from when I didn't run STP/Edict and needed tutors to get my DSC answers. 

If not for the life-loss the ideal card for me would have been Bitterblossom.  Blocks all day against aggro is sufficient to swing for the victory.  Undortunately, fetch + Thoughtseize + Confidant feels like I'm maxing out the self-damage. 

I suppose there is also the 4x Ritual, 1x Tendrils, 1x Yawgwill option.  But I'm not really familiar with the long-fish variants.  I think I tried to play something like that once, and had not success with it.