[Premium Article] SMIP -- Building Vintage on a Budget: Suicide Black 2K9

[Tha Gunslinga]

Artifact:8
4 Null Rod
2 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

Black:24
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hymn to Tourach/Thoughtsieze
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

Gold:4
4 Pernicious Deed

Green:4
4 Tarmogoyf

Land:20
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
5 Swamp

That's more like The Rock.  There's nothing suicidal about it.

[Troy_Costisick]

1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

If youre going to play all these cards, why not include a Tendrils?  Even if you can only storm for 5, that's still a ton of damage your creatures won't have to do. 

[BigBarn]

Why play Sink Hole when you can play Smallpox (much better against Fetchlands)?

Curious on this point too.  Smallpox seems like a great answer if you are mono-black... works fine with Bitterblossom, isn't stalled by fetchlands, and does the things Cruel Edict does. 

As far as land goes, I've started using Dakmor Salvage + Raven's Crime in decks to be able to discard each turn.  Creatures, well you don't really run a high density so that shouldn't be too much of an issue.  You could also run things like Factories to avoid the sacrifice cost and still have a beater. 

This is the list I've been played with Smallpox, you don't even need man-lands - it's a great answer to Colossus (obviously).  Play with it a bit and you'll see the types of plays you can make.  Lots of people assume you can't play Smallpox unless you have random 1/1's to sacrifice or some amount of man-lands, but really you just make different types of plays that are still great.  Think of it as a Sinkhole that can't be stopped.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Smallpox
4 Null Rod
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
7 Swamp
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard has Pernicious Deed, and the rest depends on what you think you're going to see (I like Gouger a lot against Fish and R/G beats)

[Troy_Costisick]

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Smallpox
4 Null Rod
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
7 Swamp
4 Wooded Foothills

A singleton Tendrils would be really great in that deck.  And I'd definately play Bitterblossom over Mesmeric Fiend.  You're playing 6 Forest fetchlands with only 5 targets, are you sure that's the land mix you want?  Also, I think your lack of Chalice will end up hurtting you in the end; it's not like you're playing Moxen anyway.  I must question Demonic Consultation in this deck.  It's an awesome card, but with Bob and two other tutors, what critical card to your deck is DC going to get you that the others won't? 

[swawagon]

I'd like to see you sneak in Life from the Loam. I know it's not particularly fast, but has great long term value and synergy with Smallpox, Strip affects, and Fetchlands.

And I agree I'm suspicious of the fetch land mix too.

And I know people go back and forth on this, but just because Thoughtseize exists, doesn't mean Hymn to Torach is not good. Hymn is one of the easiest 2 for 1 cards to play in Sui. It can often break control harder than Thoughtseize can.

And Demonic Consultation is an instant tutor for , in here it's better than Demonic Tutor most of the time.

Or go White over Green, obviously switch lands and:
-4 Tarmogoyf
+4 Jotun Grunt
-4 Mesmeric Fiend
+4 Tidehollow Sculler
Grunt (maybe not as a 4of) is comparable to Tarmo and better against Ichorid, and Tidehollow Sculler is definitely better than Fiend.

[overseer1234]

I'd splash green and play something like this:

4x     Chalice of the Void 
4x    Null Rod
1x    Lotus Petal   
(Can't really argue about these)

4x    Dark Confidant
4x    Tarmogoyf (kicked 1 necropotence for the 4th goyf)

4x    Bitterblossom

4x    Dark Ritual    
1x    Demonic Consultation    
2x    Diabolic Edict    (cruel edict if you fear misdirection)
1x    Vampiric Tutor

1x    Demonic Tutor
4x    Duress
1x    Tendrils of Agony    
4x    Thoughtseize    
1x    Yawgmoth’s Will

1x    Strip Mine
4x    Wasteland
(Duh)
4x bayou
3x swamp   
1x forest
3x bloodstained mire
3x polluted delta
1x forest
(I'm really bad with manabase's so any help here would be hot)

Sideboard

4x    Gate to Phyrexia/pernicious deed/krosan grip
4x    Leyline of the Void    (staple)
3x    Extirpate/yixlid jailer 
4x    Spinning Darkness/putrefy

I agree that mono black has it's charm's but green just offers so much good options.

[nineisnoone]

Once you starting adding green or white I think you can already just head down the Dawn of the Dead route.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36651.0

[BigBarn]

I love Life from the Loam and try to play it as much as possible, but it's really just not necessary.  By the time you can recur things you're really just in a better position to attack with Tarmogoyf and kill your opponent.  Believe me I had LftL + Raven's Crime in this style of deck for awhile.

Also on the fetchland count - remember that you can just play them and sac them to Smallpox (or discard to Smallpox) but I'll admit it's not perfect.

Mesmeric Fiend is way better than Bitterblossom against Tez, Storm decks (TPS or Ad Naus), Oath, R/G decks with low burn, Fish...it's really just a good card.  Of course, feel free to sb Bitterblossom for the Fish & R/G decks.

I must question Demonic Consultation in this deck.  It's an awesome card, but with Bob and two other tutors, what critical card to your deck is DC going to get you that the others won't? 

It doesn't get anything the others won't.  That doesn't mean you don't play it.  You consult for Wasteland, Duress, Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf, anything you need.  It's not like you have to combo out when you draw it.

[TopSecret]

First Parfait, now Suicide Black.

So, if I sign up for Premium Membership,
am I to expect articles on Sligh 2K9 and White Weenie 2K9, as well?

[Smmenen]

You'll also have to suffer through articles like last weeks composite Tez list :p

[xwt]

If you were to put goyfs in there, how would you shape the list?

[Smmenen]

If you were to put goyfs in there, how would you shape the list?

- 3 negators
- ??
+ 4 Goyfs
- 9 Swamps
+ 5 fetchlands
+ 4 Bayou

[Stormanimagus]

If you were to put goyfs in there, how would you shape the list?

- 3 negators
- ??
+ 4 Goyfs
- 9 Swamps
+ 5 fetchlands
+ 4 Bayou

See, I'm of the impression that Negator is better for this deck mostly because it's more explosive. It's a very easy T1 play off ritual or lotus and it is immediately huge. Goyf strikes me as a better fit in a more fishy deck that is aiming to delay the opponent while you beat for 3,4,5 damage in successive turns. Negator puts the opponent on a maximum 4 turn clock.

My question for you Stephen is: How is Bitterblossom all that synergystic with this deck concept. Sure you can create a lot of chump blockers, but aren't you trying to have aggressive creatures that can put more damage on the board for their cost? Bitterblossom seems kinda slow for Vintage to be honest and those 4 slots might be better used for:

a)more disruption
b)more creatures
c)more card draw (if you splashed Blue you could include Time Walk and Ancestral, and perhaps even Twister)

I dunno. I know you explained the use of Bitterblossom in your article, but it just seems like it's gonna be a weak draw more often than not.

[Smmenen]

If you were to put goyfs in there, how would you shape the list?

- 3 negators
- ??
+ 4 Goyfs
- 9 Swamps
+ 5 fetchlands
+ 4 Bayou

See, I'm of the impression that Negator is better for this deck mostly because it's more explosive. It's a very easy T1 play off ritual or lotus and it is immediately huge. Goyf strikes me as a better fit in a more fishy deck that is aiming to delay the opponent while you beat for 3,4,5 damage in successive turns. Negator puts the opponent on a maximum 4 turn clock.

My question for you Stephen is: How is Bitterblossom all that synergystic with this deck concept. Sure you can create a lot of chump blockers, but aren't you trying to have aggressive creatures that can put more damage on the board for their cost? Bitterblossom seems kinda slow for Vintage to be honest and those 4 slots might be better used for:

a)more disruption
b)more creatures

In black, there are no creatures that are better.   That's why I have it.

c)more card draw (if you splashed Blue you could include Time Walk and Ancestral, and perhaps even Twister)

This is a budget deck.  It doesn't run Mox Jet, let alone dual lands.

I dunno. I know you explained the use of Bitterblossom in your article, but it just seems like it's gonna be a weak draw more often than not.

It's the best black win condition after Bob and Tendrils.   It's under-rated in Vintage, and it serves multiple purposes.  I won't add to what I've already said in the article. 

[tomjoad]

First Parfait, now Suicide Black.

So, if I sign up for Premium Membership,
am I to expect articles on Sligh 2K9 and White Weenie 2K9, as well?

To be fair, Parfait is an actual beating and Sligh is almost as much fun as you can have in Constructed Magic.

[overseer1234]

First Parfait, now Suicide Black.

So, if I sign up for Premium Membership,
am I to expect articles on Sligh 2K9 and White Weenie 2K9, as well?

To be fair, Parfait is an actual beating and Sligh is almost as much fun as you can have in Constructed Magic.

Well I don't know about parfait (the deck never really was my style). But I'd love to see sligh and white weeny viable in vintage (on a budget D).

To me there's just something about rogue mono color decks that I really like (Sui black being my all time favorite), so I have to say: I can't wait .

Anyway back on topic

Ive been testing this build but I always/mostly get the reaction that 4 chalice+ 4 null rod are overkill (after you rape their deck offcourse).

And chalice is really only good when you can drop it on the play. Ohwyeah, and the new "God" opening of sui 2k9 isn't ritual duress, hymn, (DUH, we don't play hymn) but rather ritual+thoughtseize+null rod+chalice

[nineisnoone]

First Parfait, now Suicide Black.

So, if I sign up for Premium Membership,
am I to expect articles on Sligh 2K9 and White Weenie 2K9, as well?

But aren't these deck-types essentially played already?  Sui Black -> Dawn of the Dead.  Sligh -> R/G/w Beats.  White Weenie -> Fish.  Obviously, they won't be the same thing, but I do feel like they are similar in spirit.

[Stormanimagus]

First Parfait, now Suicide Black.

So, if I sign up for Premium Membership,
am I to expect articles on Sligh 2K9 and White Weenie 2K9, as well?

But aren't these deck-types essentially played already?  Sui Black -> Dawn of the Dead.  Sligh -> R/G/w Beats.  White Weenie -> Fish.  Obviously, they won't be the same thing, but I do feel like they are similar in spirit.

Dawn Of The Dead does not = Sui Black. They are very different decks with very different objectives. Sui black likes to really keep the pressure on from Turn 1 and Dawn of The Dead has more of a mid-late game plan.

At least, that's my understanding of the two decks.

[desolutionist]

First Parfait, now Suicide Black.

So, if I sign up for Premium Membership,
am I to expect articles on Sligh 2K9 and White Weenie 2K9, as well?

But aren't these deck-types essentially played already?  Sui Black -> Dawn of the Dead.  Sligh -> R/G/w Beats.  White Weenie -> Fish.  Obviously, they won't be the same thing, but I do feel like they are similar in spirit.

Dawn Of The Dead does not = Sui Black. They are very different decks with very different objectives. Sui black likes to really keep the pressure on from Turn 1 and Dawn of The Dead has more of a mid-late game plan.

At least, that's my understanding of the two decks.

Dawn of the Dead was based on Squee, wasn't it?

[Stormanimagus]

First Parfait, now Suicide Black.

So, if I sign up for Premium Membership,
am I to expect articles on Sligh 2K9 and White Weenie 2K9, as well?

But aren't these deck-types essentially played already?  Sui Black -> Dawn of the Dead.  Sligh -> R/G/w Beats.  White Weenie -> Fish.  Obviously, they won't be the same thing, but I do feel like they are similar in spirit.

Dawn Of The Dead does not = Sui Black. They are very different decks with very different objectives. Sui black likes to really keep the pressure on from Turn 1 and Dawn of The Dead has more of a mid-late game plan.

At least, that's my understanding of the two decks.

Dawn of the Dead was based on Squee, wasn't it?

Yes. The Whole engine of that deck is different. I'd call it closer to Fish than Sui.

[nineisnoone]

First Parfait, now Suicide Black.

So, if I sign up for Premium Membership,
am I to expect articles on Sligh 2K9 and White Weenie 2K9, as well?

But aren't these deck-types essentially played already?  Sui Black -> Dawn of the Dead.  Sligh -> R/G/w Beats.  White Weenie -> Fish.  Obviously, they won't be the same thing, but I do feel like they are similar in spirit.

Dawn Of The Dead does not = Sui Black. They are very different decks with very different objectives. Sui black likes to really keep the pressure on from Turn 1 and Dawn of The Dead has more of a mid-late game plan.

At least, that's my understanding of the two decks.

Dawn of the Dead was based on Squee, wasn't it?

Was it?  I don't run Squee in my deck anymore (or Bazaar for that matter).  But maybe you wouldn't call my deck DotD.

But I don't really see that much of a difference.  To me, the main identifying characteristic to Sui Black in the past was 4x Dark Ritual (and thus a heavy emphasis on black).  To me that's like saying a TMWA deck would be a different deck because it decided to run 4x Simian Spirit Guides to power out their first turn.... that deals with an assessment of avenues to execute a strategy, rather than different strategies all together.  I understand how that plays out different functionally, but to me I classify as the same basic deck since you run many of the same tools. 

If there was an identifying characteristic that I would delineate between Sui-Black and DotD, I would say it would be Yawg Will/Tendrils, which I've never personally identified with Sui-Black. 

Yes. The Whole engine of that deck is different. I'd call it closer to Fish than Sui.

The thing is I don't really consider Fish and Sui to be all that different.  Creatures + Disruption.  Aggro-Control-Tempo.  It's just a matter of what the colors give you.  There are billions of "Fish" variants, and at the core to them I consider the blue disruption to be what defines them.  TMWA is the same with red.  Whether you want to call it Sui-Black or DotD, the core to both of them is the black disruption package.

[LordHomerCat]

Personally I'm pretty sure Dawn of the Dead means you are playing Bazaar, probably Squee, and most likely at least 1 Zombie Infestation, hence the name.  If you aren't running any of that stuff, you aren't really playing a deck based on DotD and should probably not call your deck that if you don't want to confuse people.

[Dr.KnowMaD]

It's the best black win condition after Bob and Tendrils.   It's under-rated in Vintage, and it serves multiple purposes.  I won't add to what I've already said in the article. 

I agree.  I didn't read the premium but this card is built so well it screams to be used somewhere.  I personally had some ideas but really didn't know exactly where or how too,  I just always felt some niche is out there.  Sui is a good start.

As for the Aggro-Control-Tempo, cores might be the same and you can clump them together that way but they are different decks when it comes down to it. 

On a side note it's nice to have a variety of articles (even if I can't read them yet, they still create good/valid discussion with the community) and appreciate Steve expanding his writing skills.  Thanks.

                                                                                                                                                  Dr.KnowMaD

[Stormanimagus]

It's the best black win condition after Bob and Tendrils.   It's under-rated in Vintage, and it serves multiple purposes.  I won't add to what I've already said in the article. 

I agree.  I didn't read the premium but this card is built so well it screams to be used somewhere.  I personally had some ideas but really didn't know exactly where or how too,  I just always felt some niche is out there.  Sui is a good start.

As for the Aggro-Control-Tempo, cores might be the same and you can clump them together that way but they are different decks when it comes down to it. 

On a side note it's nice to have a variety of articles (even if I can't read them yet, they still create good/valid discussion with the community) and appreciate Steve expanding his writing skills.  Thanks.

                                                                                                                                                  Dr.KnowMaD

Looking back at the card, I now agree too. Bitterblossom can be a house and will always eventually break any sort of "control" stalemate if it resolves. I keep forgetting that that 1 damage will probably always get through (not many flying blockers in type 1) so you're looking at 1, 2, 3, 4 damage, and that amounts to 10 damage over the course of 4 turns.

One also cannot underestimate the fact that it is an enchantment, and players have a far harder time dealing with enchantments than any other type of permanent in Type 1. The only thing they can do is bounce it. Disenchant effects aren't that popular so it should stick around once it's resolved.

[nineisnoone]

Personally I'm pretty sure Dawn of the Dead means you are playing Bazaar, probably Squee, and most likely at least 1 Zombie Infestation, hence the name.  If you aren't running any of that stuff, you aren't really playing a deck based on DotD and should probably not call your deck that if you don't want to confuse people.

Fair enough.  I normally just say it's BWG aggro.  I just borrowed a lot of the deck ideas from the DotD list, so to me that's is my lists spiritual precursor.

[Guli]

Quote

I am no fan of Chalice without Workshop, either.

Then you missed the point Smile   All of my budget decks will be running 4 Null Rod AND 4 Chalice.

You forgot Root Maze

[v4ino]

Steve,

Props for mentioning me and citing my deck/t-report. I was sincerely surprised (and humbled) as the trend in Vintage is to try to take credit for other people ideas and labor.

Perhaps a more relevant decklist/tournament report from me for those wishing to swing with creatures and Tendrils to the dome should read my SCG Boston 4th place T-report (It was a 100-ish person, 8 round tournament)

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=30371.0

Note: When I boarded in my Chalices my list looked very similar to the one the article presents so don't let your friend tell you otherwise, you can compete with this deck.

If one of you budget players wanted to modify Steve's list for a more combo feel I would suggest the following

- 4 Bitterblossom
- 1 Land (maybe waste?)
- 1 Null Rod

+ 1 Tendrils
+ 3 Night's Whisper
+ 2 Cabal Ritual


In addition some sacks would be nice to get T-hold on-line faster ( 4-6 will suffice).

Then you missed the point    All of my budget decks will be running 4 Null Rod AND 4 Chalice.   

I agree all budget decks should start with these cards in mind however we all have to be flexible with card choices as in some decks 1 + 1 doesn't always = 2. A great example is the RG beats deck with won a SCG (I know it was in a very different Meta and played on-color power) however each deck should have its own consideration IMO. Looking forward to future budget articles.

[overseer1234]

If one of you budget players wanted to modify Steve's list for a more combo feel I would suggest the following

- 4 Bitterblossom
- 1 Land (maybe waste?)
- 1 Null Rod

+ 1 Tendrils
+ 3 Night's Whisper
+ 2 Cabal Ritual


In addition some sacks would be nice to get T-hold on-line faster ( 4-6 will suffice).

Thank's for the input, since I'm going to wait until bitterblossom becomes a little less pricy (when it rotates out), so this looks like a descent solution.

Ohw, and why was this moved to development? Or is my mind playing trick's on me again?

[brianpk80]

Thank's for the input, since I'm going to wait until bitterblossom becomes a little less pricy (when it rotates out), so this looks like a descent solution.

Ohw, and why was this moved to development? Or is my mind playing trick's on me again?

It was moved. 

A strict standard of review is now being actively applied in an evenhanded manner to content in the Open Forum and very few reported threads are surviving the culling.  The moderators are encouraging anyone concerned with the competitive viability of an idea presented in a given thread to report that thread that it may be situated into an appropriately determined forum.  There are still several threads in the Open forum containing unproven ideas that are ripe for review. 

Verbal warning for backseat modding.  -DA

[overseer1234]

Ive been doing some testing with this deck (being on a budget when playing on non-proxy tournaments) And I have to say that I like the tandard list (with BBlossoms) a lot more than than the more combo oriënted version( - 4 Bitterblossom - 1 Land - 1 Null Rod + 1 Tendrils + 3 Night's Whisper + 2 Cabal Ritual)  Espescially in the shop matchup where you really miss the bitterblossom (and the gate to phyrexia isn't there anymore)

Also the oath matchup is everything but a cakewalk for any of the two versions since you really need those edic'ts and your only playing two (which means you cant do anything if they just go mox, orchard, oath.)


Anyway I'm really  liking the deck and I'll be playing it next time i get the chance (which means: when BBlossoms are a bit lower in price)


Greetzzzz,
Robin.