Sharuum Oath

[AmbivalentDuck]

Rather than gunking up the Tez-Oath topic, here's the Sharuum Oath variation we've explored there.  I'll quickly sum up how this works:

Step 1: Oath up Sharuum
Step 2: He returns Possessed Portal (replaces card draws with nothing, requires a sac/discard by each player at their EOT)
Step 3: Use the replacement ability on Life from the Loam to keep drawing cards anyways, possibly Strip/Waste your opponent to stop them from solving your lock.

This is a single Oath hard lock.  Unless your opponent already had an answer or a win in hand, they lose with complete inevitability since they cannot draw cards.  If for whatever reason a second Oath happens, you return Scroll Rack and resume drawing cards (by swapping out LftL-ed lands) as though there wasn't a hard lock on the table.  Even if you don't hit LftL before Portal, you can still swing with Sharuum as they won't be drawing into any answers.

Discussed variations include:
-Bridge from Below (generates infi zombies with two Sharuums and doesn't affect the ability to return Portal)

Undiscussed variations include:
-Anything 'retrace' (ie. Raven's Crime to decrease wiggle room, force sacrifices instead of discards earlier)

The weaknesses are:
-Dredge (which cares not at all about Portal since they can also use dredge before Portal)
-Some variations on aggro (you only have a 5/5, and he's not vigilant)

A *very* tentative decklist to facilitate discussion:

// Lands
    4 Forbidden Orchard
    2 Island
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Polluted Delta
    1 Strip Mine
    2 Wasteland
    2 Flooded Strand
    1 Mishra's Factory (4)

// Creatures
    2  Sharuum the Hegemon

// Spells
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Black Lotus
    4 Duress
    4  Negate
    4 Force of Will
    1 Misdirection
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Ponder
    1 Brainstorm
    2 Scroll Rack
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Time Walk
    4 Oath of Druids
    1 Tinker
    1 Wipe Away
    2 Possessed Portal
    2 Life from the Loam
    1 Extirpate

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Oxidize
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2  Empyrial Archangel
SB: 2 Arcane Laboratory

[Harlequin]

Loam isn't truely a hard lock, its a really long soft lock.  However, the durration of your lock is dirrectly proportional to how large your library is and how many cards you have in play.  You still have to be able to dredge 3, so if both Shalarums are in the bottom 8 cards of your deck, your lock only will last about 6 to 12 turns (depending on your board).  If they have like crucible-plats in play you're done.  You can extend the lock further if you have scroll rack, but it still will eventually run out.   The other issue is that if you're staring down near-lethal beats.  They can sac lands or discard cards to still win though the lock. 

By contrast the zombies truely -are- a hard lock (well you have an 'arbitrarily long' soft lock technically).  And they double as a true win-now.  AND they provide defense against ground troops that may win through the lock. 

Yet another concern is that if they have targeted removal they can break out of the lock very easily.  Where by contrast the zombie loop is at least imune to targeted instant destruction (even krosan grip is too slow). The only way to disrupt the zombies after the loop is with mass removal, Etruth, or another arbitrarily 'larger' number of guys.  This means more removal is valid against the loam plan, namely: Welder, Rack and Ruin, Shattering Spree, Ingot chewer and other targeted artifact hate. 

I think the alter is irrelevant as part of the possessed portal plan because wether you deck them or not, the idea of portal is to say "no more cards for you." 

If given the choice to see Bridge or Loam on that 2nd oath - I think bridge is clearly better.  However loam does have added use as a valid engine card outside of the lock.  But Its hard to ignore the simplicity of OMG-zombies.

* EDIT * Another card I was thinking about was Dragon Arch.  It would be an interesting addition to the deck because it would give you both a way to win if you have a creature in your hand, AND make you immune to targeted bounce mid-combo.

[Troy_Costisick]

So you have to hope that the Portal hits the GY before Sharuum.  Is that right?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Since they can sac Orchard tokens to the Portal, it's been difficult to actually get off the second Oath.  That's why I prefer LftL to Bridge.  You probably need LftL to get the second Orchard anyways.

Other than that, I agree with pretty much everything you said.  I'll also point out that Zombies can be a sideboard option over the very untested Angels.

I really feel like we should build this assuming you won't necessarily get to Oath twice.

[Qube]

I really feel like we should build this assuming you won't necessarily get to Oath twice.

Yea and for that i would like to run Key-Vault with Witness (sorry for say this again and again, but in my testing I often won after the fist activation.) And the Witness hit alot Time Walk, so you can go into the second oath to hit the win)
If someone would like to test this out too, I could post a list or better just give a link to the decklist.

-Qube

[The Atog Lord]

Does the Zombie plan require two Oath activations? In that case, it has few advantages over Oathing up an Angel and a Dragon and attacking. I requires more dead cards being crammed in the deck, to be sure. The other concern I have of this compare to Tezzeret oath is that Tezz Oath gives you a viable way to win even if Oath never resolves. I'm not sure that Sharuum provides such a plan.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Not to rain on the parade, but Oath's strength has always been how it's been its ability to supplement a strong disruption suite (GWS) or draw engine (TSOath w/ Gush).  Finding a good win condition is all fine in good, but getting Oath to activate in the first place is the trick.

Tezz Oath gives you a viable way to win even if Oath never resolves

Right, and it's not even that Tez adds another win condition besides Oath.  More importantly, it adds a pro-active win condition if you can't find orchard.  Tinker>Portal is a very tricky play to pull off unless you've already got one of the support cards.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Does the Zombie plan require two Oath activations?

Unless there's already a Sharuum in play or in the grave.

In that case, it has few advantages over Oathing up an Angel and a Dragon and attacking.

An opponent being unable to draw cards is a substantial advantage.  That said, the Zombie kill is *not* the reason you'd run Sharuum.  Unless his ability to reanimate an artifact on the first Oath is compelling, he should not be played.  The Zombie kill is a question of how to kill once you've already decided you want Sharuum.

I'm not sure that Sharuum provides such a plan.

You could trivially put the Drains back in, cut Extirpate, a Portal, and a LftL, and add Tezzeret, Vault, and Key.  In this case, Sharuum's interaction with that combo is strictly better than the fatty plan since Tinker can now fetch combo pieces from the graveyard and library even when you haven't Oathed yet.

Finding a good win condition is all fine in good, but getting Oath to activate in the first place is the trick.

Could you explain how we've weakened our likelihood of getting Oath activated?  If anything, LftL increases our odds of finding and sticking an Orchard over standard Oath builds.  With 4x Duress, 4x Negate/Drain, and 4x FoW, we also run the full disruption suite.  The Tez Oath lists in that thread also cut Chalice.  If anything, we can be cute and add Null Rods, an option that runs counter to the point of a Tez-based list.


It looks like most of the objections raised so far can be answered by simply putting Tez, Key, and Vault back into the deck?

[Harlequin]

I think card for card, you can argue that this win has several advantages over Hellkite/Angel:

Krosan Rec / Blessing ==> Possessed Portal
 - You don't ~need~ rec or blessing if you run Portal.  If Sharuum is the bottom card of your library should be able to target the portal and bring it in before you lose to your drawstep.  Further more, portal is uncounterable and requires no mana.  However portal can be removed from play where Krosan Rec can't be retroactively answered.  Blessing has the same advantages and disadvantages as Portal.  But doesn't disrupt them in the same way Portal does.
 - Rec and Blessing provide protection against painter, but if that were truely an advantage, other non-oath decks would run them.

Hellkite / Angel ==> Sharuum x2
- 20 Trampling flying damage v some sort of combo.  Both should 'end the game' by the 2nd oath
- Hellkite / Angel  is worse against dirrect creature removal.  Its not impossible to still lose to ground troops even if you hit Akroma first.  Also if they get above 20 life (via a mini-tendrils) you have to add an extra turn onto the win.  
- Hellkite / Angel cannot beat Plats, or Ensnaring Bridge.  They have to stand around do nothing while the deck finds its other answers
- If you get a creature in hand, you have find a way to get it back in your deck.  Where if you have Sharuum in hand, you actually SPEED your clock if you can put it into the GY.

Maindeck Removal ==> Bridge
As stated above, in the Angel/Hellkite deck you should run maindeck removal.  With the Sharuum deck those removal spots can all be lumped into Possessed Portal + Bridge.  With that you have a very slow (but inevitable) Obliterate ++.

Tezz / Vault / Key ==> ??
 These can really be supported by either deck.  In fact the way we got onto this subject was that If you run TV-Key (with Tezz) are angels better than Sharuum?  So the list above does not include this, but I think it easily could.  My point is that any gains to be had by oath running Vault / Key can not be claimed solely for Angel/Kite.


  4 Forbidden Orchard
  1 Island
  3 Tropical Island
  1 Underground Sea
  5 Fetchehs
  5 Mox
  2 Mox Diamond
  1 Black Lotus

  1 Bazaar
  1 Strip Mine
  1 Riftstone Portal

  4 Oath of Druids
  1 Tinker
  2 Sharuum the Hegemon
  1 Tezzeret
  1 Timevault
  1 Voltaic Key
  1 Possessed Portal
  1 Bridge from Below

  4 Thirst for Knowledge
  4 Negate
  4 Force of Will
  1 Ancestral Recall
  1 Ponder
  1 Brainstorm
  2 Scroll Rack

  1 Demonic Tutor
  1 Vampiric Tutor
  1 Entomb
  1 Crop Rotation
  1 Time Walk

  2 Life from the Loam
  1 Dragon Arch ? or 3rd Scroll Rack

[Troy_Costisick]

After reading all this, I have a few thoughts.  They might not be useful, but I'm keenly interested in this deck.  Regarding this decklist:

// Lands
    4 Forbidden Orchard
    2 Island
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Polluted Delta
    1 Strip Mine
    2 Wasteland
    2 Flooded Strand
    1 Mishra's Factory (4)

// Creatures
    2  Sharuum the Hegemon

// Spells
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Black Lotus
    4 Duress
    4  Negate
    4 Force of Will
    1 Misdirection
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Ponder
    1 Brainstorm
    2 Scroll Rack
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Time Walk
    4 Oath of Druids
    1 Tinker
    1 Wipe Away
    2 Possessed Portal
    2 Life from the Loam
    1 Extirpate

1) Tinker has got to be a big strategy for the deck (any of the kill conditions, but especiall the Bridge win) in addtion to Oath.  Tinkering Sharuum in after Oath.  I might suggest adding Imperial Seal or, if you want to up the blue count a little, Personal Tutor.  They work well with Scroll Rack and will help get Tinker if it's still in your Library. 

2) To speed up the deck, have you considered Crop Rotation?  It can act as a 5th Orachard and increase the likelyhood of a playable first hand.

3) LftL can fill your hand with cards.  Any thoughts about using Recall (the blue spell from Legends) to get back lost items from your graveyard?  It's very mana intensive, but if it's in your hand and you LftL multiple times, it will get you back anything you need.

4) Is Misdirection really necessary as a one-of?  You have 8 counterspells, 4 Duress effects, 1 bounce, and 1 Extirpate.  Surely that should be enough disruption to combo out on.

5) Is Mox Pearl superior to Lotus Petal in this deck?  Perhaps it is if you need an artifact as a Tinker target, but it's one other thing to consider.

Peace,

-Troy

[The Atog Lord]

Sharuum.dec has a few more things going for it. You have more blue cards and more artifacts, meaning that you can better use Force and Thirst (which isn't great in normal Oath anyways). You can also enable yourself to hardcast the Sharuum much more easily than the larger monsters.

EDIT:
Harl that build seems vulnerable to Welder, but is otherwise a fine starting point. Dragon Arch seems awful, however. It is too situational and you can hardcast her easily enough.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Could you explain how we've weakened our likelihood of getting Oath activated? 

Sure.  This is a rough approach, admittedly, but I took the five most recent (maindeck) Oath lists from morphling.de and organized the lists by these components:

Mana (derf) 24 v 23.8
Win (Oath & support) 10 v 7.2
Disrupt (counters, duress fx, removal) 15 v 16
Search (draw, tutor, impulse-esque stuff) 13 v 11

(list above v average from first 5)

Compared with the average recent list, this one trades an answer and two search spells for win condition slots (4 oath, 2 portal, 2 life from loam, 2 sharuum).  You're right that there's lots of disruption in here...relative to the average T1 deck, but its actually less than the sampled Oath builds.

There's lots that can be argued with this approach.  Probably the most convincing one is that LfL belongs in either the disruption (waste fx) or search (scroll rack) categories.  Here it's important to move from raw counts to considering the quality of slots.  I'm as big a fan of scroll rack as anyone, but combined with LfL instead of Gush, and it starts to look really weak when compared with the alternatives (TfK, InuitionAK, Impulse, etc).  Even accepting that LfL is worth it's slot (irrespective of your win condition requiring it), you've weakened your search capabilities relative to other builds.

For those interested, TSOath (relying on the abomination that is Gush>Scroll) had a configuration with lower mana requirements (22), a similar win allocation (8, but Flash could be useful), and traded most of its disruption (8) for pure gas (22).  This reinforces my opinion that Oath is effective when it has a good engine to power it into play.  It's probably more accurate to say that TSOath was really just a metagamed Gush combo deck and that Oath hasn't really been a premier for some time.

Even if the win condition discussed here is a slight advantage (which I disagree with), the standard Oath approach is still a marginal metagame factor in a format littered with creatures.

Krosan Rec / Blessing ==> Possessed Portal

I guess the issue here is removability v need?  With LfL this still looks like it needs more support cards.  Preboard I'd say there's a lot more bounce/artifact removal than grave hate, but it's probably more even SB.

Where if you have Sharuum in hand, you actually SPEED your clock if you can put it into the GY.

Yeah, except for that caveat at the end...which is actually harder in a deck where you run scroll rack instead of TfK.  The other points in this section are pretty minor consideration, especially game 1.

Sharuum.dec has a few more things going for it. You have more blue cards and more artifacts, meaning that you can better use Force and Thirst (which isn't great in normal Oath anyways). You can also enable yourself to hardcast the Sharuum much more easily than the larger monsters.

I also think this really has to gravitate towards the Thirst engine if it wants to work.  TfK has synergy both with Sharuum and LfL.  That being said, does this start to look like a cobbled slaver list?  Or, maybe the optimal version will be one that converts into the other?

I've tried to attach the table, but I'm not sure how to do a decent format for it:

T5         T5         T5         T5         T5   from thread      average      TSOath Land      24         24         23         25         23   23.8      24      22 Win      7         7         7         8         7   7.2      10      8 Answer      15         17         18         11         19   16.0      15      8 Search      14         12         12         16         11   13.0      11      22                                                                                                                        1   Scroll Rack      1   Time Walk      4   Impulse      1   Sensei's Divining Top      4   Impulse      1   Ancestral Recall   1   Time Walk    1   Demonic Tutor      1   Demonic Tutor      1   Scroll Rack      1   Demonic Tutor      1   Scroll Rack      1   Ponder   1   Fastbond    1   Vampiric Tutor      2   Skeletal Scrying      1   Demonic Tutor      1   Vampiric Tutor      1   Demonic Tutor      1   Brainstorm   4   Ponder    1   Ancestral Recall      1   Vampiric Tutor      1   Vampiric Tutor      1   Yawgmoth's Will      1   Vampiric Tutor      1   Demonic Tutor   1   Demonic Tutor    1   Brainstorm      1   Ancestral Recall      1   Ancestral Recall      1   Ancestral Recall      1   Ancestral Recall      1   Vampiric Tutor   1   Vampiric Tutor    1   Ponder      1   Brainstorm      1   Brainstorm      1   Brainstorm      1   Brainstorm      1   Mystical Tutor   1   Yawgmoth's Will    1   Time Walk      1   Fact or Fiction      1   Merchant Scroll      1   Lat-Nam's Legacy      1   Ponder      1   Merchant Scroll   1   Ancestral Recall    3   Thirst for Knowledge      3   Impulse      1   Ponder      1   Mystical Tutor      1   Time Walk      1   Time Walk   1   Brain Freeze    4   Impulse      1   Ponder      1   Time Walk      1   Ponder               1   Tinker   4   Brainstorm                               1   Time Walk               2   Scroll Rack   4   Gush                               1   Recoup                     3   Merchant Scroll                               2   Deep Analysis                                                       3   Night's Whisper                                                                                                                          2   Misdirection                            1   Echoing Truth      1   Misdirection               3   Thoughtseize      4   Duress          1   Rushing River      3   Thoughtseize      1   Wipe Away      3   Repeal      4   Chalice of the Void      4    Negate          3   Chalice of the Void      3   Null Rod      4   Chalice of the Void      1   Rebuild      4   Force of Will      4   Force of Will          3   Stifle      3   Mana Drain      4   Thoughtseize      3   Duress      1   Duress      1   Wipe Away   4   Force of Will    4   Force of Will      3   Stifle      4   Force of Will      3   Thoughtseize      4   Negate      1   Extirpate   1   Chain of Vapor    4   Mana Leak      4   Force of Will      4   Mana Leak      1   Engineered Explosives      1   Wipe Away      1   Misdirection   3   Misdirection                                                                       1   Tidespout Tyrant      1   Gaea's Blessing               1   Gaea's Blessing      4   Oath of Druids   1   Flash of Insight    1   Akroma, Angel of Wrath      1   Gaea's Blessing      1   Hellkite Overlord      2   Tidespout Tyrant      1   Hellkite Overlord      2    Sharuum the Hegemon   2   Tidespout Tyrant    2   Hellkite Overlord      1   Bogardan Hellkite      1   Akroma, Angel of Wrath      2   Empty the Warrens      1   Akroma, Angel of Wrath      2   Possessed Portal   1   Krosan Reclamation    4   Oath of Druids      4   Oath of Druids      4   Oath of Druids      4   Oath of Druids      4   Oath of Druids      2   Life from the Loam   4   Oath of Druids                                                              2   Flooded Strand      4   Forbidden Orchard      2   Flooded Strand      3   City of Brass      2   Flooded Strand      2   Island   4   Flooded Strand    4   Forbidden Orchard      3   Island      4   Forbidden Orchard      4   Forbidden Orchard      4   Forbidden Orchard      2   Tropical Island   4   Forbidden Orchard    2   Polluted Delta      4   Polluted Delta      1   Island      3   Gemstone Mine      1   Island      2   Underground Sea   1   Island    1   Strip Mine      1   Strip Mine      3   Polluted Delta      1   Island      3   Polluted Delta      2   Polluted Delta   1   Polluted Delta    1   Tolarian Academy      3   Tropical Island      1   Strip Mine      2   Polluted Delta      1   Strip Mine      2   Wasteland   2   Tropical Island    1   Tropical Island      1   Underground Sea      2   Tropical Island      1   Tolarian Academy      1   Tropical Island      2   Flooded Strand   2   Underground Sea    2   Underground Sea      4   Wasteland      2   Underground Sea      1   Underground Sea      3   Underground Sea      4   Forbidden Orchard   2   Volcanic Island    3   Wasteland      1   Black Lotus      2   Wasteland      1   Black Lotus      2   Wasteland      1   Strip Mine   1   Black Lotus    1   Black Lotus      1   Mox Emerald      1   Black Lotus      1   Lotus Petal      1   Black Lotus      1   Mishra's Factory (4)   1   Mox Emerald    1   Lotus Petal      1   Mox Jet      1   Mox Emerald      1   Mana Crypt      1   Mox Emerald      1   Mox Ruby   1   Mox Jet    1   Mana Crypt      1   Mox Sapphire      1   Mox Jet      1   Mana Vault      1   Mox Jet      1   Mox Sapphire   1   Mox Pearl    1   Mox Emerald               1   Mox Pearl      1   Mox Emerald      1   Mox Pearl      1   Mox Pearl   1   Mox Ruby    1   Mox Jet               1   Mox Ruby      1   Mox Jet      1   Mox Ruby      1   Mox Jet   1   Mox Sapphire    1   Mox Pearl               1   Mox Sapphire      1   Mox Pearl      1   Mox Sapphire      1   Mox Emerald          1   Mox Ruby                        1   Mox Ruby               1   Black Lotus    1   Mox Sapphire                        1   Mox Sapphire                                                 1   Sol Ring

[AmbivalentDuck]

@Harlequin:  No Drains in your build despite Tez, TfK, etc?  The mana base is unsuitable for producing UU in time?

[Harlequin]

Harl that build seems vulnerable to Welder, but is otherwise a fine starting point. Dragon Arch seems awful, however. It is too situational and you can hardcast her easily enough.

The infinte zombies are immune to offensive welder.  Only the portal or the TV-key win can be interupted with welder.  The only way they could stop the zombies is if they weld out a creature.  The problem is that they have no good moment to respond to.  They can't remove any trigger from the stack with welder, and they can only fizzle the trigger by putting the target into play... which doesn't stop the combo.

Dragon Arch may infact be terrible.  But it means you can go infinite off the first oath if you have a Sharuum in hand -and- hit the Arch (but remember thats a 50/50 chance when you only have 1 sharuum left in the deck).  It aslo gives you a really convieniant answer to maindeck instant-speed bounce.  Think about it in the concept of mid-combo as a stabilizer not as something to hard cast to 'cheat' Sharuum into play.

@ GI
I think your evaluation of the original list posted is correct.  I tossed together a list that includes both Thirst and Scroll Rack and Loam.  As well as entomb, crop rotate, and bazaar.  This means putting a Sharuum into your yard pre-1st-oath doesn't seem too hard to me.  Id have to do some goldfishing before I was confident in the deck.  But my instinct is that

@ Drains.
As to if It should run drain.  I guess I could see that working.  Maybe drain over negate is a smart move.  As you stated you may want to revist the manabase to make it more slaver-like if that is the goal.

[AmbivalentDuck]

@ Drains.
As to if It should run drain.  I guess I could see that working.  Maybe drain over negate is a smart move.  As you stated you may want to revist the manabase to make it more slaver-like if that is the goal.

I just can't see hardcasting Tez before you're dead without Drains.  It's worth pointing out that this deck can pull off turn 2-3 kills/locks without too extraordinary an opening hand: that's speed and explosiveness that's never been typical of Slaver.

[brianpk80]

With all of the emphasis on having certain cards in the graveyard at the right time, I think the best draw/search engine for this deck would be Intuition. 

[SiegeX]

Thanks for posting this new thread to discuss Possessed Portal, I meant to do it last night but I got caught up in other stuff.

I think the alter is irrelevant as part of the possessed portal plan because wether you deck them or not, the idea of portal is to say "no more cards for you."

My original idea with portal was to use altar as the kill but I'm glad we have moved away from it as I was made aware of a few things about portal last night.  Obv the altar kill is completely ruined by blessing, but more importantly are the number of decks that run DSC.  A single DSC means our opponent will have a full turn with their entire library in their GY.  My original plan was to just stall them out until their hand was emptied by portal and then sacrifice the portal to itself so they deck themselves.  However, it was pointed out to me that your opponent does not have to discard their hand, ever, with portal in play.  They can continually choose to sacrifice a permanent and keep their hand.  If that hand contains YawgWill, thats game.

Since they can sac Orchard tokens to the Portal, it's been difficult to actually get off the second Oath.  That's why I prefer LftL to Bridge.

This shouldn't be a problem.  Lets say your opponent has 1 spirit token in play and you have sharuum + portal.   On your EOT step you sacrifice your sharuum to portal because you couldn't care less if he is in play or in the GY.  Your opponent then chooses to sacrifice his spirit token.  Your opponent then takes his turn and presumably does nothing, and at his EOT portal goes off again.  You both choose what you want to sacrifice to portal, he gets priority back, passes it to you and you make another spirit token and burn for 1.  Next turn you oath up sharuum#2 to bring sharuum#1 from your GY into play and hopefully hit bridge in the process

You could trivially put the Drains back in, cut Extirpate, a Portal, and a LftL, and add Tezzeret, Vault, and Key.  In this case, Sharuum's interaction with that combo is strictly better than the fatty plan since Tinker can now fetch combo pieces from the graveyard and library even when you haven't Oathed yet.

My current sideboard strategy is a transformational into Tezz Control by taking out the portals and oath's and bringin in Tez with the vault combo and Tinker + DSC.   However, you make a very compelling reason to include tinker in the main deck as a sorta pseudo oath that requires us to beat face FTW.

Hellkite / Angel ==> Sharuum x2
- 20 Trampling flying damage v some sort of combo.  Both should 'end the game' by the 2nd oath
- Hellkite / Angel  is worse against dirrect creature removal.  Its not impossible to still lose to ground troops even if you hit Akroma first.  Also if they get above 20 life (via a mini-tendrils) you have to add an extra turn onto the win.  
- Hellkite / Angel cannot beat Plats, or Ensnaring Bridge.  They have to stand around do nothing while the deck finds its other answers
- If you get a creature in hand, you have find a way to get it back in your deck.  Where if you have Sharuum in hand, you actually SPEED your clock if you can put it into the GY.
n Arch ? or 3rd Scroll Rack

On your last point, I brought this up on my first post about portal in the other thread but I think its worth repeating here.  One of the major problems with Oath is drawing your fatties and needing to put them back in the library.  With bstorm being restricted, this was a real kick in the balls and made us rely on a slower scroll rack.  However, another nice side effect of portal is that if your opening grip contains a bridge but is otherwise a really good hand, keep it!  Once you oath up portal, you'll have two opportunities to discard that card to portal by the time your next turn rolls around to oath up sharuum#2.  If you run krosan or blessing you could keep a hand that has a sharuum too.

[SiegeX]

With all of the emphasis on having certain cards in the graveyard at the right time, I think the best draw/search engine for this deck would be Intuition. 

Good call, Intuition is definitely a card to be considered. This deck is a turn faster than Angel Oath the majority of the time, but we are susceptible to the problem of having 2x Sharuums on top of everything; something angel oath couldn't care less about.  If you use intuition to ensure that we have the right cards in the GY before we go off, that solves the problem right there.

An intuition pile could look like:

Portal
Portal
Bridge

If they give us bridge, we get Sharuum + Portal out on our first oath activation.  We discard bridge to portal before the 2nd oath activation and get infi tokens for portal lock.

If we are playing drains, we could also throw in a gifts to act as an entombx2

[arctic79]

Shouldn't this deck be in the Improvement Forum?

[SiegeX]

I don't see why, oath is a proven archetype, and this version promises to be a turn faster in most cases.  My opinion is obv biased since portal was my idea, but compared to other threads I see in this forum I'd say it has every right to be here.  I however do not want to turn this this thread off topic so I'll leave it at that.  If the mods want to move it, I will trust their judgment.

[Zieby]

I Believe Intuition is really needed in this deck, not only for the Pile above.

Portal
Portal
Bridge

With Oath in play another pile can be:
Time Walk
Voltaic key
Time Vault

This makes the kill (go infinite in turns) the turn after you cast oath.
Seccondly you can get 3x Oath or Orchard. This makes it allot easyer to find the combo.
And one other possibility is to get LftL and 2 lands you need (Bazaar,Strip,Factory, Academy or Orchard)

I Also believe that the Bridge-kill is not needed if you play with the Vault key combo in your deck.
The only advantage from bridge is that it doesn't get stopped by Null Rod or did I misunderstood the concept and is this the soul reasson for including the Bridge-kill?

Just my thoughts at this moment,

Greetz Arjan

[SiegeX]

I'm not convinced that running Tezz + Vault + Key in this deck is the right direction to take it.  I strongly believe this deck's power is maximized by making sure oath gets put on the table; once you've done that the rest will take care of itself.  We are already running an extra 3 cards over angel oath with the portals and bridge (or lftl), I don't think this deck support 3 more that do not directly help oath stick.  I do think, however, that a transformational into tezz/vault/key is a very viable option assuming we are running drains. 

[Skadrian]

you can be one turn faster, but if you hit sharuum before portal you waste a turn (with respect to angel/dragon oath). Playing intuition in response to the oath trigger would solve this, but that makes it a 3 card combo.
The chance to hit sharuum before portal is 50%, so you only gain half a turn

One of the major problems with Oath is drawing your fatties and needing to put them back in the library.  With bstorm being restricted, this was a real kick in the balls and made us rely on a slower scroll rack.

to me it seems you have the same problem here, but with portal instead of fatties. Having a sharuum in hand is not really bad, but with a portal in hand the chance of hitting portal before sharuum is only 1/3. With a sharuum in hand the bridge kill will become impossible unless you also run krosan, blessing is terrible with loam, bridge and sharuum. That will leave you with a lot of dead cards (2 sharuum, 2 portal, loam,bridge, krosan reclamation) over angel oath.

[Harlequin]

Jer and I did some testing, and some brainstorming over the deck.  We decided to take it more like control slaver dirrection.  Here is what we decided:

- Adding an extra Sharuum (to 3) is great.  When you run 2, you can't count them as blue for FOW because you chop off your legs if you ever remove it.  Running 1 extra increases your effective blue count by 3.
- The extra Sharuum makes Intuition AMAZING.  Now you can intuition for: Sharuum - Sharuum - Voltaic Key, before you Oath. This almost ensures a win.  You can also win without oath if you've discarded a bridge and you Intuition for Sharuum x3 (and have 6 mana after untap). or even Sharuum x2 + tinker. 
- Running the extra Sharuum means you should run 2 bridges.  This means you can probably get away with 1 portal.
- Tezz basically never wins games.  But timevault + key does.

Our most recent testlist to the best of my memory:

4 Orchard
4 Fetches
3 Trops
3 Underground
1 Island
1 Tolarian Acad

5 Mox
2 Solring, Lotus

4 Oaths
3 Sharuums
1 Tinker
2 Bridges
1 Portal
2 Timevault, Key

4 Force
4 Drain
4 Thirst
2 Intution
3 Cabal Therepy
3 DT, Vamp, Yawg
3 Timewalk, Recall, Brainstorm
1 Regrowth

[piZZero]

How does the Infinite zombie combo work? I'm trying to figure it out but i can't see it :S

[Harlequin]

From the other thread:
S1 and S2 are Sharuums

S1 is in play.
- Oath Begins to Resolve:
**loop**
S2 comes into play, Bridge and portal are put into the GY
- Statebase is checked
-- Legend rule applies; S2's Trigger's target now needs to be declared.
-- S2's ability targets S1, the ability is put on the stack
-- Zombie Triggers are put on the stack
- Zombie x2 resolves
- S2's trigger resovles, putting S1 into play
S1 triggers, targeting S2.
S2 comes into play.  Goto **loop**
x1,000,000 zombies
End the loop by targetng Portal
You now have Portal, S1, 1000000 zombies, and Oath in play.  To seal the deal sac the Oath to the Portal at your end of turn.


It works because legend killing occurs before the targets of the trigger are declared.  So the Trigger -can- target the newly legend killed creatures.

*** 1500 Post! ***

[piZZero]

Thanks a lot

[Nehptis]

First, I'm intrigued with this thread and new combo version of Oath. Being a long time Oath player I know the pros and cons of various Oath strategies.  As you know, Oath got hit big time by the restriction of Brainstorm.  Not only did BS allow you to clear your hand of creatures, it also allowed you to dodge Duress effects if you were holding Oath.  IMO, the challenges with Oath are:

1) Finding and Resolving Oath - This means using Tutors and/or having a draw engine.  And it means dodging Duress effects if you are holding Oath during your opponents turn and/or resolving Oath by not letting it be countered.
2) Ensuring that your creatures are in your library and not in your hand - BS was the king for this.  Today, slower solutions like Rack or pitching your creatures to TFK are accepted.
3) Ensuring that your opponent has more creatures than you - Orchard does the job.
4) Either winning or locking the game after your first Oath activation OR ensuring that you stay alive AND keep Oath in play for one more turn. - This is so key to the Oath game plan.
5) In addition, if you are playing aggro Oath then you don't need to worry about where in your library the first creature is relative to any other cards (unless you are holding Gblessing or it's already in your GY).  With Combo Oath decks like this one, you have all the above issues to worry about PLUS your non-creature combo pieces could be in your hand and/or you need to worry about what gets Oathed up first.

Again, I like the innovation here.  And if the intent is to make a casual / semi-competitive Tier 2/3 Oath deck then kudos to you.  But, if the intention is to make a truly competitive Oath deck that can battle TPS, Tezz, Slaver, Ich, Shop, etc., then please read on.

First, you need to address the fundamental challenges of Oath that I listed above.  Don't get overly concerned about the combo pieces or aggro pieces until you can build a solid Oath framework.  Thinking back to previous Oath builds 3 come to mind.

1) Aggro Oath w/ 4 BS (Akroma + Razia / SotN)  - These decks were good but not great.  Losing BS has made them much worse.  Although the new James King Oath build is pretty good even though it can only use 1 BS.

2) Chalice Oath w/ or w/o 4 BS.  - Again good, but not great.

3) Tyrant Oath w/ 4 BS - Amazing.  This deck should be the model for Oath.  But, the problem is that it lost BS, Gush, Scroll and to a lesser extent Ponder.  So, that's like saying, "I want you to build a replica of this car.   But, you can only use 1 tire."  Well you'll end up with something that looks like a car.  But, it won't function like one.  What made Tyrant Oath so amazing was that it address all of Oaths issues.  It had draw.  It had a means to put creatures back or dodge Duress.  It pretty much had the game locked after a SINGLE OATH ACTIVATION.  It was perfect.

So, to reach the competitive status of Tyrant Oath, you need to ask yourself:

-How are you going to find / draw Oath?  Tutors / a draw engine…sounds good.
-But, too much draw means your creatures and/or combo pieces will end up in your hand.  So, now what? Scroll Rack / TFK…acceptable ..but I say too slow in this environment.
-How are you going to address getting Duressed while holding Oath?  This is very difficult to solve with only 1 BS.
-What's your plan during that critical turn following your first Oath activation (assuming you can't win or lock the game after the 1st Oath activation?  I'm intrigued by how Portal can assist here.  But, you still have to hope that your first Oath activation puts Portal in the GY.

So, the challenge becomes building an Oath deck that is on par with the power that Tyrant Oath once wielded with a toolbox that is less full.  IMO, aiming for anything less will only result in a mediocre Oath build that will be fun in causal play.  But, won't be seen in very many T8s.  Good luck!

[SiegeX]

With a sharuum in hand the bridge kill will become impossible unless you also run krosan, blessing is terrible with loam, bridge and sharuum. That will leave you with a lot of dead cards (2 sharuum, 2 portal, loam,bridge, krosan reclamation) over angel oath.

Blessing is actually OK with bridge.  Follow me here, lets say on your first oath you flip over a bridge, blessing, sharuum in that order. In this case, what have we lost?  Not much since bridge wasn't going to do anything for us that turn anyway.  Now lets say you have Sharuum out and you oath again and get the same bridge, blessing, sharuum in that order.  Guess what, you just got infi zombies even though you triggered blessing because we can continually stack Sharuum's CIP triggers on top of blessing.  At the end of the day we will have Sharuum + Portal + arbitrary number of zombies + GY shuffled into library.

As for intuition making it a 3-card combo, I don't quite see it that way.  I see intuition more as a support card than a combo piece.  My primary goal is to still get oath on the table and activate it as soon as I can.  If I'm able to intuition beforehand, even better.  And as somebody mentioned, intuition doubles as a tutor getting me an oath or an orchard.

Jer and I did some testing, and some brainstorming over the deck.  We decided to take it more like control slaver dirrection.  Here is what we decided:

- Adding an extra Sharuum (to 3) is great.  When you run 2, you can't count them as blue for FOW because you chop off your legs if you ever remove it.  Running 1 extra increases your effective blue count by 3.
- The extra Sharuum makes Intuition AMAZING.  Now you can intuition for: Sharuum - Sharuum - Voltaic Key, before you Oath. This almost ensures a win.  You can also win without oath if you've discarded a bridge and you Intuition for Sharuum x3 (and have 6 mana after untap). or even Sharuum x2 + tinker.

Harlequin, we are definitely on the same wavelength as I've been testing 3x Sharuum's but in a roundabout fashion with Sculpting Steel.  As you mentioned, even though Sharuum is blue and can be pitched to FoW, doing so cripples the deck.  With sculpting steel (or 3 sharuums) we can toss one away.  Sculpting steel has the advantage of acting like a Sharuum but not stopping oath, meaning we could theoretically have portal lock on our first activation if we can flip both sculpting steel and bridge before a sharuum.   If you are running Vault + Key (which I'm warming up to the idea without Tezz), we can still intuition for Sharuum, Sculpting Steel, Key.  We do, however, lose the ability to intuition for 3x Sharuum and hardcast one.  I'm sure there are some other interactions with sculpting steel that I'm not thinking of at this moment.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm not a fan of sinking more cards into the kill.  I'm already very unhappy with 3 (Portal x2 + Bridge).  Rather than putting in another Sharuum and need to run even more redundant and dead cards, I've found a singleton Mishra's Factory to be a satisfactory alternate kill.

Intuition has been a power house, typically fetching Strip, Waste, LftL outside facilitating the kill.


I've found very little utility in a sideboard.  Except against Ichorid, I don't feel like there's anything I'd actually want to cut...some I'm going to suggest a Living Wish board and I'd probably cut some thirsts for it.  I've just found a sideboard *so* useless.
 
1 Wasteland
1 Tabernacle
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Tolarian Academy (I don't run it main)
1 Sharuum
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Gilded Drake
1 Eternal Witness
1 Plagued Rusalka
4 Leyline