Elves! (referring to Rich Shay's tournament report)

[policehq]

You can always win with Grapeshot, if you have 3 cards left in your deck simply play a 3rd Glimpse and draw 3 or if you have 4 cards left use a Skullclamp twice. As long as you aren't stupid you can figure out what you need to do before you get to 1 card left in your deck and have no Grapeshot.

Also it can kill random stuff like Welder and Bob while also being just fine to headshot for 5-6 damage, where Tendrils is hard to cast and isn't flexible.

I'm not still arguing on behalf of Tendrils, but just so the point is clear:
I was unable to build enough storm against an Ichorid opponent that had played Ancestor's Chosen because I had 3 active Glimpse of Natures, AND Grapeshot was the final card in my deck. That's just unlucky though, so move on.

[nineisnoone]

I'm still convinced that GShot is the best Storm win for the deck.  Regarding a Blue splash for a Time Walk win.  My problem with U is that #1 I like Mono G.  #2 In game 1 w/o Swarms the Time Walk plan is more fragile than a Storm win.  More decks pack FOW / Drains than they do Stifles.

This thinking has brought me to another concern, Duress / Seize.  I'm wondering if perhaps fitting in an Eternal Witness or a Regrowth is a good call as suggested above.  It would have 3 purposes, #1 if GShot is Duressed away or Stifled then we can still win that turn w/o having to pass and swing FTW next turn.  #2 Getting a countered / Duressed GoN or Clamp back from the GY is nice.  #3 Replaying almost anything from the GY in this deck is pretty decent.

Thoughts on including Witness or Regrowth?  If yes, what to remove?

Also, any Flashback, Replicate or Retrace cards that would synergize with this deck?  (I'm starting a Gatherer search myself.)

Doesn't the deck use Birchlore Ranger to get it's non-green mana anyways?  So you wouldn't need to splash U really.  Grapeshot still seems like a better win than Time Walk, storm spells naturally better.

There aren't any good Flashback/Retrace/Replicate spells imo. 

I do like Eternal Witness and have been testing it out, running it in place of Regal Force.  The best things to grab are Summoner's Pact and Glimpse of Nature or an Elf that was clamped (obviously with Skullclamp in play).  I'm not really sure if it's better.  Though Witness > Regrowth due to being Pactable.

Another couple of cards I'm looking at are Relic of Progenitus and Harmonize.

Relic gives you some game against the abundant graveyard strategies and Harmonize is easier to cast than Regal. 

The main problem I'm having is that I have no idea what I can cut.

[nataz]

Not that I've done a lot of testing, but I think I'm becoming a fan of witness as a 1 of in the deck. A couple of times it was useful to snag a duress/thoughtseized grapeshot/time walk, and a couple of times it allowed me to win with a double grapeshot after a stifle. So yea, im def of the opinion that you don't need a second win condition, but I think you do need witness as a back up.

[Nehptis]

I agree that EWitness is > Regrowth due to Pact.  For that same reason I think Regal is > Harmonize.

I still like TCrypt over Relic even though COTV at 0 is an Ich play.  My SB would probably contain Crypts and Needles.  Needle for Bazaar vs. Ich and for its other potential uses (e.g., Welder, TVault, Trisk, EE, etc.).

[nineisnoone]

As a one of I like Regal better, but when you run more of them and draw into more of them, I find I like Harmonize more.  Regal is better when you are looking for it, but bad when you aren't.  Harmonize is better to just stumble across but not a bomb like Regal is.

Also Harmonize gives you another good card to grab with Witness.

I'm trying to fit Relic into the main deck.... no room at the moment.  In the SB Crypt/Needle is probably ideal.

[nineisnoone]

Speaking of the Sideboard.... mine's mostly theoretical.  What do you cut?  I'm leaning towards the Mana elves (llanowar and such) since I'm trading speed for disruption.  I would definitely want all the cards that I go off with (untappers and drawers) so it doesn't slow down when I do try to combo out.

[Nehptis]

I started testing EWitness and am pretty much sold on it as a 1-of.  I cut a WSymb.  But am open to suggestions on what the optimal card to cut is.  Remember my starting list is exactly Rich's except for the Bayou-->Forest.

Not sure if there are any tournies this weekend.  But, I'd love to start seeing some real data.

[the boogie man]

I usually find that I like having a symbiote around more often than a ranger, which is what I cut for it. I also use two visionary sometimes. I also usually don't mind having a spirit guide, sometimes it's useful with pact.

Since you cant run a crazy amount of disruption in this deck anyway, I wonder if there is a way to make it faster. It's mono color, so chrome mox is a potential option. Land grant could also be run in the place of four fetches. It may not be too bad to play, because the only info you'd give your oponent is elves and mana. I have been goldfishing a rough list, but I don't really get a chance to test at all.

[nineisnoone]

I've went back to Rich's list but made my cuts at -1 Bayou (6 Fetch and 6 Forest), -1 Shaman, and -1 Symbiote.  

The Symbiote cut could be a Ranger.  I've found Ranger to be better when you need help going off, but Symbiote to be better when you are going off. 

For my additions, Eternal Witness has been good.  I dropped the Harmonize idea.  It's just 1 mana too expensive to be worth it.  I prefer Zealot to Shaman because it dies to a single Skullclamp and is cheaper to play if I just need it to be an Elf.  The additional mana it requires to cast and activate hasn't ever really been relevant.  I'm also trying out a Vexing Shusher in the main.  It allows you to go beat down against Chalice @ 1 (it seems unlikely though I suppose possible to combo out under it though) and it's obviously good against blue-based control.

Land grant is interesting, but I'm not sure it's worth it.  You need 3 Elves to make Heritage Druid work which requires one mana elf, two lands, and a turn.  Putting two lands in play on the first turn would still seem to make you go to turn 2.

[the boogie man]

I was talking more about increasing turn 2 wins. it seems really hard to win turn 1 unless you get a crazy hand. I usually find myself winning on turn 3. How fast do you go off?

[nineisnoone]

To be honest, I'm like you, turn 3.  But everyone keeps indicating that they can go off on turn 2 consistently.  I know at this stage I'm still making play errors so I'm attributing the turn loss to that. 

I re-read the card and realized that I misunderstood how it worked (puts in hand rather that in play), so it wouldn't even accelerate your mana.  Would you playing it simply to untap your Nettle's then?  That seems like a potential advantage. 

On that note, I wonder if Fastbond would be worthwhile in this deck.

[LordHomerCat]

Land grant doesn't do anything for you.  Just play fetchlands instead if you really want to thin your deck.  Generally a turn 2 will involve some elf on turn 1 and then a Sentinel and Birchlore or Heritage Druid turn 2.  Quirion ranger helps with this as well, as you can play a llanowar turn 1, then cast Ranger, tap forest for another elf, bounce forest to untap Llanowar, replay forest and cast another elf (hopefully a combo elf) and go from there with 3 untapped elves out.  Alteratively, if you cast Glimpse into Ranger into an untap, you can pretty easily go off if you have a Nettle Sentinel or Pact and any Birchlore or Heritage Druid.  Obviously drawing your Emerald or Lotus will likely speed you up a turn (or more with Lotus: I've been turn 1'ed by Owen multiple times when he started with it, its pretty annoying).

[The Atog Lord]

Land grant doesn't do anything for you.

Sure it does. It helps you get game losses to Force of Will. This card would make the deck much, much worse.

[Nehptis]

Turn 3 seems like a fair assessment.  Goldfishing perhaps can be attributed to more Turn 2 wins.

Land Grant is good in theory.  But, if it gets countered it sets you back big time.  The mana base of fetches + the Forests seems like it is very consistent and lite enough that when you are going off the lands don't get in you way very much.

Vexing Susher is interesting.  However, I like Xantid.  You did make me think of another card though;
Manamorphose:  Instant
Add two mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool.
Draw a card.

Could be a nice little boost for the deck as maybe a 2-Of.  But, as always, what to cut?

[nineisnoone]

I still have Xantid's in the SB.  If I keep Zealot in the main, I might main deck a Xantid.  But I'm kind of thinking to put the Zealot's all in the SB with Shusher being my answer to both Chalice @ 1 and counters in the main deck. 

I don't really think the cycling only cards are worth it.  My initial thought to the deck were automatically to add some Street Wraiths and Manamorphose, but really when you are going off an Elf will basically cycle on it's own and it just makes mulligan decisions worse. 

[the boogie man]

I was suggesting them solely in reference to adding chrome mox to the deck, speeding up into turn 2 zone. And if they're wasting a counter on the mana source, you probably drew a counter away from your glimpse/clamp. Plus, with chrome mox, they become an easy choice in case you need something extra to pitch if you have a land. mox isn't terrible mid combo either, sometimes getting you that extra mana you need to continue comboing.

I think that if you ran 7-8 lands, land grant, and 3 chrome mox, there would be a decent good chance that countering the land grant wouldn't screw you, because you do still run 7-8 mana elves, and i run 1 elvish spirit guide, with 4 pacts.

[Vegeta2711]

This deck's problem has 0 to do with a ton of mana to win and is pretty much all about how many cards you see / card manipulation if the opponent has some way to deal with the first Glimpse / Clamp.

[Nehptis]

This deck's problem has 0 to do with a ton of mana to win and is pretty much all about how many cards you see / card manipulation if the opponent has some way to deal with the first Glimpse / Clamp.

You are 100% correct sir.  I'll even take it a step further.  I've been testing this sceanrio which has a high probability of occurence in Vintage.

Either on the Draw or on the Play your opening 8 or 7 cards contains Elves, Land and either 1 GoN or Clamp.

- You get Duressed!  Bye, bye Draw engine.

Now its turn 3 or 4. You aren't in lethal beatdown range because you were only drawing 1 card a turn.  But, you now have another GoN or Clamp in hand.  You know you can't afford another turn because you will most likely die due to "<insert random Vintage win condition>".  So, you cast it and it gets FOW or Drained.

-Game Over.

So, how do we deal with this? Do we accept the G1 fragile nature of the deck and rely on Xantids G2 / G3?  Or can we add something to hedge against this scenario Game 1?  The Duress thing is very difficult to protect against.  We have more options for protecting against Counters.

Thoughts, ideas, anything?

[nineisnoone]

This deck's problem has 0 to do with a ton of mana to win and is pretty much all about how many cards you see / card manipulation if the opponent has some way to deal with the first Glimpse / Clamp.

Yeah, that was the idea with trying to cram in the Harmonize. 

The only other ideas I have for draw are Sensei's Divining Top and Steelshaper's Gift.  I like Steelshaper's Gift better but it requires color splash.  Though I don't really think that's too much of a problem.  Top might be better, but I'm not very experienced with the card, so I'd have to test it out.

[LordHomerCat]

This deck's problem has 0 to do with a ton of mana to win and is pretty much all about how many cards you see / card manipulation if the opponent has some way to deal with the first Glimpse / Clamp.

Yeah, that was the idea with trying to cram in the Harmonize. 

The only other ideas I have for draw are Sensei's Divining Top and Steelshaper's Gift.  I like Steelshaper's Gift better but it requires color splash.  Though I don't really think that's too much of a problem.  Top might be better, but I'm not very experienced with the card, so I'd have to test it out.

Top would be awful.  There's very few shuffles (Summoner's Pact basically) and its a huge mana sink.  You might as well just run Mirri's Guile, it will do pretty much the same thing and its terrible.

[tito del monte]

There's very few shuffles (Summoner's Pact basically)

If you're playing a manabase with up to eight fetches, would there be enough shuffle effects for Sylvan Library? A bit old school for sure, but sets up your clamp draws nicely and can snag you a couple of extra cards per turn.

[LordHomerCat]

But like, it costs 2, does nothing while you try to combo out, isn't a creature...  It does so little that I don't know why you would bother.  If you're running the Regal Force, there are 13 cards you can have which will let you combo out if you can generate some mana (and face it, if you can't, then you couldn't combo with all the Glimpses in the world) in Glimpse, Clamp, Regal Force, and Pact for Force.  There are a ton of cards that let you combo, and even if you play out all your dudes, topdecking any Clamp or Pact still lets you go off pretty much on the spot.  Why add cards that are slow and clunky and actively bad when you are trying to combo out?  I don't see a reason for these other non-creature cards, remember that you do need a lot of elves so you can consistantly win off like one glimpse.

[Vegeta2711]

Sigh. Ok, main issue with other draw is it all sucks. If you want extra, run blue and add Ancestral. I'd soon run Manamorphose and Street Wraith than any of the other draw mentioned here which ranges from bad to ludicrous.

You want another 'combo off' card, run Weird Harvest. Although you tend not to win the same turn you cast it (Although you can really easily if you have Heritage in play and cast it for 3), considering the dearth of relevant creatures opponents can fetch from their decks, it may be worthwhile to run it anyway. Even just resolving it for 1-2 can be enough to sometimes put you over the top the following turn. Let me reiterate this is why I like Elvish Visionary, it nets you a card without lowering your Elf count.

[the boogie man]

has anybody tried running a lot of visionaries? perhaps 4 of those would make the engine a little better. you do have 8 cards you can combo off with, so maybe a couple extra cantrip elves will allow you to recover faster. they also aren't bad mid combo. whats the consensus on the optimal number of visionaries?

[Nehptis]

So, in regards to my point above about how to survive through disruption; what's the solution?  Visionaries?  This deck's biggest issue is ensuring that either 1 Glimpse resolves or 1 active Clamp is in play.

Although the Plan B of swinging with Elves is cool.  We don't have the luxury of other formats to ensure that aggro wins can happen quick enough to be a solid plan B.

[Darkenslight]

Singleton Slate of Ancestry for massive draw capability?  OR is that too much hassle?

[kicks_422]

How about MD Guttural Response?

[BigBarn]

Singleton Slate of Ancestry for massive draw capability?  OR is that too much hassle?

You mean Regal Force?

[Harlequin]

Ive been throwin this deck around (mostly for our team to test against), and here's my 2 cents:

- Probably the most powerful card outside of the engin of the deck is Summoner's Pact.  This is key to understanding the deck some of the changes I made.

- Elvish Visionary is 'win more.'  He's too much mana to kickstary a combo, and using him with to mini-combo with Symbiote is often just overkill.  For a long time I was running just 1, and after a ton of testing I decided there was never a game where I was like "wow the Visionary totally won this game!"

- New and improved 1-of 'toolkit' > Viridian Shaman, Elvish Spirit Guide, Eternal Witness, Vexing Shusher, and Regal Force.  This gives you a real solid main-deck answer to basically everything that could be thrown at you.  Shusher and Shaman are definatly situational, but give you a glimmer of hope against certain decks.  ESG and Witness are definatly powerhouses that actually CAN jumpstart a broken combo, or supercharge a weak combo.  Witness in particular is a card that can turn a shakey combo attempt into a solid victory; and I find myself tutoring for it frequently. 

- Fastbond is another card that can really swing an unstable win deep deep into victory.  You can't tutor for it... but you can't tutor for lotus either.  But often times if you are stumbling through a weak combo chain hitting fastbond will be like throwing gas on the fire.  Fastbond also makes Quiron Ranger much much stronger, and therefore it means Symbiote bouncing a Ranger is a much stronger play as well.

So heres the list I've been running:

8 Fetches
5 Forest
2 Lotus, Emerald

7 Llanowar/Fynhorn Elf
1 Fastbond
1 ESG

4 Summoner's Pact
8 Glimpse / Skullclamp

8 Wirewood Symbiote / Quirion Ranger
8 Birchwood / Heratige
4 Nettle Sentry

1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Vexing Shusher (or Visionary)

I'm not 100% sure what I would do for the board... Probably something like -

4 Elvish Scrapper
4 Seal of Primordia / Sundering Vitae
2 Timberwatch Elf? maybe? maybe 4 Xantid?
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Gaea's Herald

Basically just try your best to race combo I guess...

[meadbert]

I have barely tested this deck, but would Root Maze be a good card for combating combo?