[Free Article] SMIP: Vintage On a Budget -- Christmas (R/G) Beatings!

[Troy_Costisick]

Just an FYI:  I've written a primer for this deck here on the Mana Drain- http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37439.0

I still encourage anyone to read Stephen's article about the deck.  He goes into a lot more detail about this deck and its heritage than I do.  It's worth the price of premium IMO. 

Happy beatings!

-Troy

[grungyboy]

nice primer troy : it's good to know that this is in the primer articles here. helped me a lot to understand the match ups of R/G from other top tier decks. makes me want to try this build even more . currently i'm still using the Chicago build but incorporated some of the ideas from the X-mas. i do think it's possible to combine the two builds: the super aggro style of the Chicago build and the disruptive nature of the X-mas. i have a list already but i need to playtest it more though. all in all the primer was great. i'm looking forward for the evolution of this deck in the coming sets and sharing my playtest results. more power !!!

 


p.s. please fix the taiga in your 3 list (listed as "tiaga") 

[Troy_Costisick]

p.s. please fix the taiga in your 3 list (listed as "tiaga") 

LOL, thanks for pointing that out. 

If and when you get a decklist together, post that in this thread along with any tournament reports you might have.  I'll be interested to read them. 

Peace,

-Troy

[overseer1234]

Thanks for the nice primer 

I'm going to test Mox-Monkey out as soon as I can (in the chalice and the fanatic slot), since the next tournament is not coming up fast that leaves me with enough time and things to test .

Off topic: has anyone tested the budget suicide deck lately? in my eye's it has a way better storm matchup, and a decent backup plan (mini storm combo). So what makes people play this deck over the sui black list?

[overseer1234]

Not trying to necro this thread, but I think it's worth mentioning that this article isn't premium anymore and free to read for those that are still interested.

greetzzz,

(and enjoy for those that didn't get to read the article sooner)

[[supa_t(im)]]

Great, I'm out of it for a couple years and THAT is when RG gets some love.

No one probably remembers, but there used to be a lot of discussion on RG using elvish spirit guide, root maze, null rod and artifact mutation.  None of these things seem like new concepts to me.  Sure, better cards were printed, like magus and tin street, but all the concepts are definitely the same.  How come people notice now, lol?

Anyway, back when I used to play the deck I found root maze invaluable.  I don't quite get why you guys dropped it.  With 8 spirit guides I don't understand how you can get stuck under your own maze.  The card single-handedly allowed me to win against Oath and Storm Combo.

But I also played wild mongrel as a way to get rid of multiples of null rods and mazes and still do some damage.  I'm not sure he fits in the deck anymore.

I guess the deck looks like an updated version of what guys like me, ShadyPhoenix, Dralock, and Dxfiler were doing like 2-3 years ago.

One thing I do remember was that I sometimes had trouble finishing the game.  What I mean by this is that I would play my disruption pieces early and start beating down, but then they would still resolve something before I could get the final points of damage in.  My impression back then was that my creatures just didn't beat for enough, so I stayed with cards like kird ape and rancor.  If I tried to add more disruption, my clock got slower, and since every Vintage deck has a certain level of inevitability I just couldn't push that damage through before they found an answer.

How does this deck solve that?  Deck compression with things like Tin Street and Magus?  Does it really make that much of a difference?

I'm glad to see this deck is still around.

[overseer1234]

Well, actually tarmogoyf is one of the most cost-efficient beaters in the game (usualy 4/5 or so), sow he pretty much takes care of our clock while magus+rod+chalice tie up your opponents mana .

The deck doesn't run tin-street hooligan, but i can see it appear in the main deck when you expect a lot of shop decks.

[Troy_Costisick]

No one probably remembers, but there used to be a lot of discussion on RG using elvish spirit guide, root maze, null rod and artifact mutation.  None of these things seem like new concepts to me.  Sure, better cards were printed, like magus and tin street, but all the concepts are definitely the same.  How come people notice now, lol?

Because since that time Tarmogoyf and Tezzeret have been printed! 

Anyway, back when I used to play the deck I found root maze invaluable.  I don't quite get why you guys dropped it.  With 8 spirit guides I don't understand how you can get stuck under your own maze.  The card single-handedly allowed me to win against Oath and Storm Combo.

The Spirit Guides are a one-time deal as far as mana production goes.  You have to use them very judiciously.  I almost always reserve mine to cast Pyroblast or Tarmogoyf (if Magus is out).  Root Maze forced this deck to try to be more agressive and play its aggro pieces as quickly as possible.  That's a mistake in the current meta.  Or at least, in a Mana Drain heavy meta like the one we've had for the last six months.  Instead, to win you must play your cards are the point in time when they will have maximum impact.  And I always find it important to leave mana open to bluff red blast.  Root Maze makes that hard to do.

One thing I do remember was that I sometimes had trouble finishing the game.  What I mean by this is that I would play my disruption pieces early and start beating down, but then they would still resolve something before I could get the final points of damage in.  My impression back then was that my creatures just didn't beat for enough, so I stayed with cards like kird ape and rancor.  If I tried to add more disruption, my clock got slower, and since every Vintage deck has a certain level of inevitability I just couldn't push that damage through before they found an answer.

How does this deck solve that?  Deck compression with things like Tin Street and Magus?  Does it really make that much of a difference?

In my experience, this deck doesn't have much trouble finishing a game.  Goyf is a nice clock and I've had him up to 7/8 on a number of occasions against Tez decks.  Goyf is a superior choice to Mongrel, and if you built the deck with more modern cards, I think you'd see how much of a difference the new ones make.

The deck doesn't run tin-street hooligan, but i can see it appear in the main deck when you expect a lot of shop decks.

Yes, I agree.  Shops are making a comeback, so either Hooligans or Ingotchewers may find their way into my sideboard.  Right now, I've subbed Mox Monkies in for Fanatics because in Jan/Feb the number of Ichorid decks declined.  Now that Ichorid is posting some very impressive results, I'll probably have to switch to Steve's latest suggested list for the main deck.

Peace,

-Troy

[[supa_t(im)]]

Ok.  Yeah, I can definitely see that this deck would be better against the modern drain stuff.  My old RG Tempo (what we used to call it) was built to beat Stax, Slaver, and Shop Aggro.  Not much of that is still highly played in the metagame.

Its all making sense now.  Tez is more mono blue-ish than Slaver ever was, so MDing REB effects definitely makes sense.  Tarmogoyfs seem to single-handedly solve the clock issue, which makes cards like kird ape and wild mongrel obsolete.  I really do like these new lists, I wish I was playing when some of these cards first came out (like Magus and Goyf).

I think it boils down gradual shift away of the Suicide concepts.  Sui used to disrupt really hard early then apply a fast clock. 
I remember most non-blue aggro-control lists following the same pattern (hence why root maze was used).  Now decks can recover from an early disruption suite a lot quicker, so aggro control must be able to apply continuous disruption.

I definitely like this deck, thank you and Steve for updating it.

[overseer1234]

Has anyone else played this deck recently?

I'm having really big problems with a tinkered Inkwell Leviatan, the only thing you can actually do is hope they don't have counterbackup when you have pyroblast...

Other options are gorilla shamann to keep them of viable artifacts to tinker with, bu what would you cut? Fanatic?

Or maybe in the stingscourger slot since it's main target is being replaced by something it can't touch...

Has anyone else faced this problem?

Thanks in advance.

Greetzzz,
Robin (Keeping this deck alive)

[Smmenen]

Stingscourger is no longer good enough.   This deck does need a redesign, including ways to address Leviathan.   

[Guli]

Answering Ink is not hard, answering DC is not hard either. But answering both with 1 card becomes problematic.

I think Thornweald Archer is a solid card to keep the ink at bay. Also good vs 'Goyf and other aggro.

[Troy_Costisick]

Stingscourger is no longer good enough.   This deck does need a redesign, including ways to address Leviathan.   

Yep.  I'm tesing out various combinations of additional artifact hate or additional red blasts in place of the scourger.  However, I'm working on a national certification in my field and haven't had any time to play.  Perhaps in a month or so, I'll have some real data to share.

Peace,

-Troy

[Smmenen]

Answering Ink is not hard, answering DC is not hard either. But answering both with 1 card becomes problematic.

I think Thornweald Archer is a solid card to keep the ink at bay. Also good vs 'Goyf and other aggro.

That's the problem: it only keeps Inkwell at bay, which doesn't allow you to attack in for damage.   It's a great suggestion, but without Aether Vial, which this deck doesn't want, it's not a viable answer.   Given enough time, you're opponent will break out of the soft lock and find another way to win.   

[Troy_Costisick]

Answering Ink is not hard, answering DC is not hard either. But answering both with 1 card becomes problematic.

I think Thornweald Archer is a solid card to keep the ink at bay. Also good vs 'Goyf and other aggro.

That's the problem: it only keeps Inkwell at bay, which doesn't allow you to attack in for damage.   It's a great suggestion, but without Aether Vial, which this deck doesn't want, it's not a viable answer.   Given enough time, you're opponent will break out of the soft lock and find another way to win.   

I'm more convinced than ever that the trick is to keep Tinker from being played rather than deal with the fattie once it's in play.  That means attacking blue mana sources, preventing artifacts from coming into play/staying in play, and countering blue spells. 

[overseer1234]

I'm more convinced than ever that the trick is to keep Tinker from being played rather than deal with the fattie once it's in play.  That means attacking blue mana sources, preventing artifacts from coming into play/staying in play, and countering blue spells. 

In that same line of thought +  the fact that Steve mentioned stingscourger isn't good enough anymore:

Would gorilla shaman be good in the stingscourger slot? at least it does it's job at keeping away artifact's to tinker with......
Or would you just main deck more Red Elemental Blast's?

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

I got to play in a tournament this weekend.  It wasn't too many players, but it was large enough to face serious decks.  I can tell you right now this deck has no answer for Tinker-Leviathan.  In fact, 75% of all my losses came because of Tinker.  I knew going in that Tinker would be my most serious threat.  So I subbed in Artifact Blast for Stingscourger.  I figured if I built the deck around stopping Tinker and denying my opponenet access to his full suite of mana sources, then I'd have a fair shot of winning.  The deck I played packed more artifact hate than any deck I've ever seen, and yet, it wasn't enough to stop Tinker.  Tinker is Plan A against aggro for Draing decks, so unless you get Chalice out early it's really tough to stop Inky from coming out.  Even Null Rod is only marginally successful since by turn 3 they have enough lands (usually at least 1 basic) in play, FoW backup, and can just drop a Mox from their hand and sac it to Tinker before you have a change to destroy it.  At the moment, I don't think Wizards has printed any cards for red or green to deal with Inkwell.  Until they do, I'm not sure this archetype will be anywhere close to as viable as it once was.

Peace,

Troy

[zeus-online]

My best shot at that problem would be more red blasts or...blue for hurkyl's recall (and ofcourse ancestral/walk since there's blue in the deck...)

Tried searching gatherer...but seems like the cards that answer inky costs 3 mana...(seeds of innocence for example) which is likely too much (haven't played this deck)...And the life gain from seeds might get annoying aswell. Hurkyl's recall does answer both DSC and inky though.

/Zeus

[JDawg13]

I posted this in another thread, but there's at least one red card that answers the Leviathan once it's in play -- Pulverize.  It's probably a horrible solution, and I agree that the plan should be to stop Tinker in the first place with more Red Blasts and Pyroblasts, but if you absolutely need a solution to a resolved Tinker, it's an option.

[grungyboy]

I joined a local Vintage tourney here last April 18 and this is the deck i used:


Creatures (23):
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Wild Nacatl
2 Stingscourger

Instants (4):
4 Lightning Bolt


Enchantments (3):
3 Seal of Primordium


Artifacts (12):
4 Aether Vial
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Skullclamp
1 Lotus Petal

Lands (18):
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Strip Mine


Sideboard (15):
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's crypt
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Stingscourger

This is my attempt of combining the traditional RG Beats and X-mas beatings;I did well on my first round against a TPS deck (2-0) then came along my 2nd round where i faced a Tez deck. the match went 2-0; i never won because of our great friend Levi. my Stingscourgers were useless in my hand. My final standing was 1-2-1 and was 1 win away making it possibly to the top 8 if it wasn't for that draw game  with MBC.

I posted this in another thread, but there's at least one red card that answers the Leviathan once it's in play -- Pulverize.

I've also thought of this during the weekened but thing is with Pulverize is not only it will cost you 2 Mountains but it may make your opponent free from the soft lock you established via chalices and null rods.

What i want to suggest is Lace with Moonglove;sure you will take damage from the trample of Inkwell but it will surely get rid it. plus you get to draw a card 

I'm planning to join again this May with this list:

Creatures (26):

4 Kird Ape
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Magus of the Moon
1 Gorilla Shaman

Instants: (8):

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroblast
2 Lace with Moonglove

Enchantments (3):
3 Seal of Primordium

Artifacts (7):
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Skullclamp
1 Lotus Petal


Lands (18):
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
2 Mountain
2 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard (15):
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Null Rod
2 Lace with Moonglove
2 Pyroblast
1 Seal of Primordium


 

[the_lord_shaper]

If you guys want some answers to Inkwell, then here two: Pulverize and Seeds of Innocence. Both of the before mention cards are not the best cards in magic to deal  with a resolved Inkwell, but they are the best answers for this deck's colors.

[Troy_Costisick]

If you guys want some answers to Inkwell, then here two: Pulverize and Seeds of Innocence. Both of the before mention cards are not the best cards in magic to deal  with a resolved Inkwell, but they are the best answers for this deck's colors.

I've looked at those cards.  Unless Magus of the Moon is in play, Pulverize weakens your board position to such an extent that I'm not sure that this deck could recover from it fast enough to prevent a deck's plan B: Key/Vault.  Seeds of Innocence has double green which isn't the easiest manage, but the worst part is the life gain.  This deck has a slow enough clock as it is.  Giving them two or three extra turns to live just makes that problem worse.  I've seen folks suggesting Thornweald Archers as a soultion.  That works great if you can play the Archers as an instant somehow and block Inky.  However, if you just cast him then it becomes a standoff between your 4/5 Goyfs and an Archer vs. his 7/11 fattie.  Eventually the blue deck will find an answer with enough countermagic backup to punch through.  Perhaps a mix of these cards (Archer to stall, Pulverize to blow things up) would work, but even then it's no where near as effecient as Stingscourger used to be.  I'm still checking Gatherer for better ideas.

[Smmenen]

There is also Meekstone and Sculpting Steel. 

[overseer1234]

There is also Meekstone

Sounds good, but it also turns off our own goyf's so...

 

and Sculpting Steel. 

prfrfrfrffrfrfrfrfrfrft I almost drowned in my coffee...

This (in my eye's) looks like one of the best answers for inky, but what to cut...

[grungyboy]

i would replace Stingscourger with Ohran Viper as it serves as answer to Inky once it hits play and since the RG Beatings is to be played patiently like Troy pointed out in his primer, there is no problem that you can cast Ohran Viper early as it serves as protection and nets you cards as well.

[Guli]

The issue is not a lack of answers, the issue is answering both DC and Inkwell and even Progenitus. If you want to answer all of these in 1 cards, which means you are using less room in the deck.
So either you dedicate 6-12 slots to answer things like Tinker and Oath and risk having a lot dead cards or ... find something that works that is green or red.

I solved my problems by using black, perhaps the strongest fish color right now. It is undeniable that Diabolic Edict is good for this 'tinker' problem.

Creatures (23):
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Wild Nacatl
2 Stingscourger

Instants (4):
4 Lightning Bolt


Enchantments (3):
3 Seal of Primordium


Artifacts (12):
4 Aether Vial
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Skullclamp
1 Lotus Petal

Lands (18):
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Strip Mine

Strange list to use Vial in. How did they work out? I see in your new list you cut Vial's. I think that is a good call for this list.

[Troy_Costisick]

i would replace Stingscourger with Ohran Viper as it serves as answer to Inky once it hits play and since the RG Beatings is to be played patiently like Troy pointed out in his primer, there is no problem that you can cast Ohran Viper early as it serves as protection and nets you cards as well.

The problem with Ohran Viper is the double green in its mana cost.  5 of your 19 lands don't produce mana of any color, 8 of the 19 (42%) can't produce green.  That means it's very tough to cast anything with more than one colored mana symbol.  Even something like Vexing Shusher is difficult.  If it weren't for that, Viper would be an excellent choice.  I might even try it out just to be thurough. 

Peace,

-Troy

[grungyboy]

@ Guli: The deck is my attempt to modify the r/g beatz deck;i replaced the Elites with Chalices and the Moxens with Wastelands. here is the list of the deck: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12002
the Aether Vial was there as an answer to the meta at that time where a lot of Gush and Workshop decks were around;


@ troy: yeah, you're right...i also had the difficulty of casting Viper in my own R/G deck...i guess something has to be done with the manabase i guess...i think adding 2 Windswept Heath will do the trick for Beatings...i haven't tried building Beatings myself as I think that would be a bad decision as a lot of people are playing random aggro decks here in my meta...

[Troy_Costisick]

@ troy: yeah, you're right...i also had the difficulty of casting Viper in my own R/G deck...i guess something has to be done with the manabase i guess...i think adding 2 Windswept Heath will do the trick for Beatings...i haven't tried building Beatings myself as I think that would be a bad decision as a lot of people are playing random aggro decks here in my meta...

You can try that.  I'd be interested to know how it works out for you.  When I tried adding extra fetch lands, I had trouble with their interactin with Magus of the Moon.  If I couldn't fetch out a basic Forest before I had to play Magus, all subsiquent fetches I drew were just mountains.  That would make it hard at times to cast Tarmogoyf who is the real beater of this deck.  If you find that adding two fetches works really well, I would love to read how your actual play in a tournament went. 

Peace,

-Troy

[Jlive00]

If your only requirement is dealing with Inkwell Leviathan then Thornweald Archer may work.  It has deathtouch and reach.  Not good against DSC, Akroma or Progenitus but good against Hellkite Overlord and Inkwell Leviathan.  Also you can clamp him away for +1 if you really need it.