[Free Article] SMIP: Vintage On a Budget -- Christmas (R/G) Beatings!

[Smmenen]

A little while ago I promised that I'd seriously explore how one might build decks in Vintage on a budget.   The inspiration didn't come from someone begging or cajoling -- people had tried for years to get me to try and use my design prowess/experience in Vintage for budget decks, something I'd strongly resisted.  Rather, the inspiration came from an article I did on "unrestricted Vintage," and my experience in Vintage for the last couple of years.  I now think it is possible to build competitive budget decks where running "auto-includes,' such as Black Lotus, are not 100% a given.  Why?  The short answer is that all of my budget decks run the budget "power 8" of 4 Chalice and 4 Null Rod.   For a more detailed explanation, you'll have to read this article!

The first article on Budget Vintage presented a redesigned Suicide Black deck.    That deck made the hard choices of throwing out long-cherished, but outdated threats like Hymn to Tourach and Sinkhole.  

In this article, I revamp and revitalize the classic R/G beatz.  My approach to R/G beatz is no less bold, jettisoning long-favored staples of the archetype.   It will surely generate some controversy, as letting go of old cherished favorites always does.  But that is the price we pay for modernization.  

In this article, I put the archetype in its historical context, walk through what I see are the major card choices, present my analysis, share my deck, and examine a few major matchups and sideboarding options.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/16867_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Vintage_On_A_Budget_Christmas_GR_Beatings.html

Enjoy!

Stephen

[The Atog Lord]

All these budget articles, and nothing on Elves?

[Smmenen]

It's next.   

Patience Master Shay. 

[Akuma]

Great article Steve, much better than last week's article. Would it be correct to assume that you believe all budget decks should pack 4 Null Rod + 4 Chalice of the Void?

I like the idea behind the deck, but do you think this deck applies enough pressure to win before a deck with full power can EOT bounce your artifacts and win? It seems like the creature base consists of a bunch of Grey Ogres + Tarmogoyf. How effective is it to have all that disruption and beat down with a bunch of wimps?

[Mantis]

Nice article, could you post the list you would play if you had access to power?

[Troy_Costisick]

Nice article, could you post the list you would play if you had access to power?

Would you really want to run power with Chalice and Rod in the list?  I guess, you could swap out Lotus Petal for a Black Lotus, but other than that, you don't need any power to run the deck.

Peace,

-Troy

[Smmenen]

Great article Steve, much better than last week's article. Would it be correct to assume that you believe all budget decks should pack 4 Null Rod + 4 Chalice of the Void?

I like the idea behind the deck, but do you think this deck applies enough pressure to win before a deck with full power can EOT bounce your artifacts and win? It seems like the creature base consists of a bunch of Grey Ogres + Tarmogoyf. How effective is it to have all that disruption and beat down with a bunch of wimps?

How are the two-power, but highly disruptive or mana accelerant creatures I'm running any wimpier than Kird Ape or Skyshroud Elite? They aren't.  They all have 2 power.  In any case, Goyf is your main dude.

Not every budget deck I'm proposing will have 4 Rod/Chalice -- Elves, for example, would not, but many will. 

[Akuma]

How are the two-power, but highly disruptive or mana accelerant creatures I'm running any wimpier than Kird Ape or Skyshroud Elite? They aren't.  They all have 2 power.  In any case, Goyf is your main dude.

I realize that they all have two power but there is a big difference between 1cc and 3cc. I'm not saying your concept does not work, I just wanted to know if that was ever an issue. I don't care if my opponent drains a skyshroud elite or a kird ape, but I would not be too happy if they drained a spirit guide.

Goyf is not worth discussing since it is practically an auto-include in anything that can support it.

[Troy_Costisick]

How are the two-power, but highly disruptive or mana accelerant creatures I'm running any wimpier than Kird Ape or Skyshroud Elite? They aren't.  They all have 2 power.  In any case, Goyf is your main dude.

I realize that they all have two power but there is a big difference between 1cc and 3cc. I'm not saying your concept does not work, I just wanted to know if that was ever an issue. I don't care if my opponent drains a skyshroud elite or a kird ape, but I would not be to happy if they drained a spirit guide.

Or what about draining a Magus?  Or a Trinisphere?  Or any other three cc card?  That's always the rish you take vs. a Drain deck.  As far as this build goes, there's no effective difference between 1cc and 3cc.  This deck does not race opponents.  Having a bunch of 1cc critters is important if your goal is to pile up damage as fast as possible.  With the current Tez, Oath, and TPS decks, it's nearly impossible to do that before they just win.  This build requires a different mindset.

You only play that 3cc Spirit Guide if the board state says that you can.  That means you have red blast back up, your opponent is tapped out, you have some other adequate disruption on the board (like Seal), or you have a backup plan in case something goes wrong (Scourger) and they Tinker into DSC.  This deck requires that a pilot be much more engaged in what is happening than a traditional R/G Beatz aggro deck does. 

Peace,

-Troy

[Ben Kossman]

Do you think this list needs white for Wild Nacatal, STP, Ethersworn Canonist, and Gaddock Teeg? Kind of more like three deuce from the Trix era? I'm sure that the RG list functions fine but white really rounds out the overall theme of the deck with some really powerful cards.

[Smmenen]

Do you think this list needs white for Wild Nacatal, STP, Ethersworn Canonist, and Gaddock Teeg? Kind of more like three deuce from the Trix era? I'm sure that the RG list functions fine but white really rounds out the overall theme of the deck with some really powerful cards.

A future article friend

[TheOrangePet]

Another exceptional article with, as usual, uncanny verbiage.

My only question as follows. Do you, having tested at length, have any suggestions about sideboarding against closed metas. That is, do you have a list of cards that you'd consider "boardable", but didn't specifically cite in the article. The most obvious situation is a meta devoid of Ichorid. What cards would you substitute in place of Leylines? Does the number of Needles increase?

Furthermore, are there matchups where you'd consider your opponents blue spell density not deep enough to side in the REBs, but keep the Pyros?

Thanks ahead of time Steve.

[Smmenen]

There are a host of possible sideboard options, and I couldn't possibly have canvassed them all.   More Needles is a possibility, but I would also look at potential cards like Grim Lavamancer (huge in a possible Fish/aggro metagame), Price of Progress, Krosan Grip, Artifact Mutation, Tin Street Hooligan (obviously, Grudges, as I said in the article), and on.  Check out the other R/G threads in these boards and elsewhere for other ideas. 

[Troy_Costisick]

Check out the other R/G threads in these boards and elsewhere for other ideas. 

Good point.  The TMWA thread(s) has tons of sideboard for red-based decks.  Many of those SB's have explanations with them.  That's probably a good place to start IMO.

Peace,

-Troy

[Soon-Man]

You mention a choice between Magus of the Moon and Root Maze+Pithing Needle. What would the deck look like with that Maze/Needle package?

I have seen a few lists running Greater Gargadon in the board against Oath. If you played Gargadon in the board, would you also include Vexing Shusher? Is Oath even a match-up that needs this many slots in the board? Are these cards good enough in other match-ups to warrant that many spots in the board?

Edit: Great Article. I am pretty much a dedicated RG player so this is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to see. I plan on bringing this to every tournament I attend in the foreseeable future. I'll be sure to put up tournament reports.

[Smmenen]

You mention a choice between Magus of the Moon and Root Maze+Pithing Needle. What would the deck look like with that Maze/Needle package?

There is a list in the article with that package immediately below the discussion of Trinisphere.

[Soon-Man]

Ok thanks. It wasn't in one of those special list boxes so I assumed it meant that the list was a test list that got tossed aside.

Thanks for the speedy response.

[Smmenen]

That's just 'cause Craig doesn't format every list I include   Which is fine with me -- i want people to cue into the most important list. 

[LotusHead]

Because it's Christmas, don't get mad if somebody posts the "decklists are not premium" list here, if anybody does. (cough)

Tarmogoyfs are budget?

[tomjoad]

Because it's Christmas, don't get mad if somebody posts the "decklists are not premium" list here, if anybody does. (cough)

Tarmogoyfs are budget?

]
Card/Figure                     Price StdDev Average    High     Low  Change Raw N
----                            ----- ------ -------  -------  ------ ------ -----
Tarmogoyf,                      22.14,  4.91,  22.11,  37.72,  12.00,  0.38, 142

Even by T2 standards that isn't a bad price for a card these days. In T1, as you know, a $20-25 card isn't really much.

[Smmenen]

Because it's Christmas, don't get mad if somebody posts the "decklists are not premium" list here, if anybody does. (cough)

Tarmogoyfs are budget?

Get your foot in the door:

4 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void

Complements:

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Now that you've taken Yawg Will:

4 Stingscourger

Cleanup/damage/all purpose
4 Mogg Fanatic

Alot better than you think:

4 Seal of Primoridum

Works well with SSG and pumps Goyf:

4 Pyroblast

Win the Game:

4 Tarmogoyf

Accelleration/late game beatdown
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

1 Lotus Petal

Manas:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Tiaga
3 Forest
3 Mountain

SB is premium thought


Merry Christmas!

[chief]

I was, of course, interested to see what you had to say in this article.  I'll be even more interested in where you go with the RGW deck you mentioned for a future article, as that is what I've been working with for the last several months.  I agree that the deck I played at SCG chicago is now largely outdated.  I do, however, still feel that a more aggressive approach can be effective.  Kird ape, while still present, has been reduced to a 2 or 3 of in the current lists, and skyshroud is gone altogether.  The burn has also left, which is another point on which I agree with you.  I've been able to guide these types of list to some success with the limited amount I've been able to play- at the last ICBM open that I couldn't make it to, I handed Jake Kempfer a primitive list that he was able to make the top 8 with.  The only tournament that I've been able to attend in recent history (admittedly with an attendance of only 17,) I won.  I understand that you're writing these articles with the mindset from the outstart that these decks are innately less powerful than most of the tier 1 decks, and I won't offer you much argument on that point.  That said, playing decks in this vein- be they more disruptive like yours or more aggressive like mine- is a lot of fun and I'm glad to see them get at least a little bit of face time.

[garathiel]

why taking sigil over deglaimer that resolves one of the best problems of the deck? Colossus ?

This deck hasn't got a good matchup with a fishUR of WUtang ... insteed of every tipical RGbeat

[mustardknight]

I'm playing in a fairly serious vintage tourney tomorrow, and  although I don't have a budget, I will be running a similar list, I'm simply wondering what i could change from said list on starcity (am I allowed to talk about starcity?). Should I add white? Since i'm not on a budget, what could I add? Any comments would be seriously appreciated as i have the tournament tomorrow.

[Troy_Costisick]

I'm playing in a fairly serious vintage tourney tomorrow, and  although I don't have a budget, I will be running a similar list, I'm simply wondering what i could change from said list on starcity (am I allowed to talk about starcity?). Should I add white? Since i'm not on a budget, what could I add? Any comments would be seriously appreciated as i have the tournament tomorrow.

Really, there's not many changes you can make to this deck with an unlimited budget.  Changing the Lotus Petal for a Black Lotus is one.  Adding another color doesn't get you much IMO.  The only place I can point to as an area where you can make a lot of changes is the Sideboard.  Examine your own meta and then make choices from there.  As for the main deck, I can't think of any expensive cards that do the same jobs as these cheap cards do.

Peace,

-Troy

[mustardknight]

I'm playing in a fairly serious vintage tourney tomorrow, and  although I don't have a budget, I will be running a similar list, I'm simply wondering what i could change from said list on starcity (am I allowed to talk about starcity?). Should I add white? Since i'm not on a budget, what could I add? Any comments would be seriously appreciated as i have the tournament tomorrow.

Really, there's not many changes you can make to this deck with an unlimited budget.  Changing the Lotus Petal for a Black Lotus is one.  Adding another color doesn't get you much IMO.  The only place I can point to as an area where you can make a lot of changes is the Sideboard.  Examine your own meta and then make choices from there.  As for the main deck, I can't think of any expensive cards that do the same jobs as these cheap cards do.

Peace,

-Troy

Thank you, will do.

[TheOrangePet]

Can you elaborate more on why Tin Street didn't make the final decklist? You speak volumes of his merit in the strategy section, but he misses the final cut.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Can you elaborate more on why Tin Street didn't make the final decklist? You speak volumes of his merit in the strategy section, but he misses the final cut.

For me, it was an issue of redundancy and versatility.  Seal of Primordium does the same job for the same cost Hooligan does except it can kill enchantments too.  In the Sideboard, there's plenty of artifact kill already.  Hooligan is a strong card, and including it instead of say, Mogg Fanatic, isn't necessarily *wrong*.  It's just that it doesn't do enough to justify including it over anything else.

While Stephen and I were discussing this design, we had to choose between Magus of the Moon, Mogg Fanatic, and Tinstreet Hooligan.  Magus became the obvious choice to include since it is such a bomb vs. Drain and Ichorid decks.  Fanatic eventually won out over Hooligan because of it's ability to kill Dark Confidant and Goblin Welder and at the same time remove Bridges from an Ichorid player's GY.  The Fanatic just offered a more versitile choice over Hooligan. 

Peace,

-Troy

[dark burn]

The list is really fun to play and gives you much more strategic decisions to make than most r/g beats decks.  I also saw it did well recently on the tourny reports forums.  Nice deck

[overseer1234]

The list is really fun to play and gives you much more strategic decisions to make than most r/g beats decks.  I also saw it did well recently on the tourny reports forums.  Nice deck

Yeah, Ive been doing some testing and it does take some getting used to, NOT dumping beaters on the board and playing the waiting game.


Ohw and something just hit me: In my logic this deck would do even better in proxy tournament's, since more people will be playing power/stuff the don't have but don't to play. In which case this deck will hose the format a lot more since there'll be less Goblin/random aggro/budget hate because that's what this deck easily loses to in my opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Greetzzz,
Robin.