[Premium Article] Insider Trading - Are Proxies Hurting Vintage Tournament Atten

[Mr. Type 4]

I don't forsee the DCI sanctioning proxies anytime soon.  Sanctioning the use of Collector's Edition cards would be more likely, but could cause a pretty serious uprising for players that already have legal power - especially unlimited pieces which would quickly become less valuable the more attractive black-bordered CE ones.  

The problem here is comparing the US Vintage scene with that of the European one.  I would bet good money that holding a tournament for insane European Prize Support (like 5 moxes to the winner etc) WITH proxies would actually increase the turnout.  The idea that proxies make the format itself less popular is absurd.

[aosquirrels]

Just one TO's perspective.

Attendance is only one way of measuring success at a tournament.   I would get 30+ players when I ran proxy events but would sell few if any cards to the players.  Why should I expect to sell cards to players who don't need them?  In an earlier post Steve Menendian mentions that winners of power don't keep and use the card for future tournaments.  They go straight to eBay.  I now only run sanctioned events with additional prizes for best performing non-powered deck.  This has piqued the interest of quite a few players at my store and my sales of singles is pretty healthy because of it.  As time goes on some these players who are un-powered have eventually purchase P9 cards.  The bottom line to my jibberish is that I would rather have 20+ players at a sanctioned event than 30+ at a proxy event.  This gives me long term customers and a financial reason to even consider hosting events.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Carl

[Smmenen]

To build on that point, I haven't even purchased a Tezzeret and I own Time Vault!  I figure that if I ever want to play a Tezzeret deck, I can just proxy one.   

[hitman]

I completely agree with the writer of the article.  I've basically lost interest in the format slowly because of playing with fake cards.  I have less than 10 worthwhile Vintage cards left and I know if I wanted to, I could play in most Vintage tournaments.  I've all but quit Vintage in practice and spend my time playing Legacy and drafting.  I think this article is the best response to Demonic Attorney's threads about the decline of the format.

[Stormanimagus]

I think we really also need to examine the 3rd alternative. GOOD BUDGET DECKS.

This over used EXCUSE for not supporting Proxy or Sanctioned Proxy events is flawed and impossible to agree with.  If you truly value competition then the PLAYING FIELD must be as equal as reasonably possible.  This is a reason why professional sports have salary caps.  This is one reason why performance enhancing drugs are are not allowed.

What if I said that this year the Boston Red Sox were allowed to use aluminum bats if they wished?  But, everyone else could not.  Even with better equipment the Sox are NOT guaranteed to win a championship.  But, they would have a significant advantage and higher chance of winning.

There is always a case and a cause for proxy powered Tier 1 decks and proxy powered "rogue" or anti-meta game decks to compete equally.  But, please don't suggest that "Budget decks" can be expected to do so, as well.

EDIT:

Had to add this, too.

It would encourage new players to win on superior playskill and would make the competition tougher. I applaud Stephen for making it more realistic to play competitively on a budget. This third option should not be overlooked by players or Ben Bleiwesses alike.

You are suggesting bringing a knife to a gun fight in hopes that you can win and then be applauded for winning with your skills.

I am not suggesting bringing a knife to a gun fight. I know what it's like to play fully powered TPS and to do reasonably well with it. But I also know that there is Landstill and other "budget" decks out there that can not only compete, but be the right choice for certain metagames. It's true that they are more often defensive decks, but Stephen has proven that, with the right 'equalizer' cards like Null Rod and Chalice Of The Void, these decks can truly be devastating to a fully powered deck. I don't think it is fair to just say that powered decks are Tier 1 and non-powered ones are not. We havn't seen enough attempts at more fishy or RG beats or Sui-black approahes because they are not played in large enough numbers. I know they can be devastating when crafted well, and played well as I've played against some of them as the TPS player and lost. I wouldn't discount them so off-hand.

5 proxies might be a reasonable compromise as well as it allows for a fish player to have all the power he/she needs to make the optimal build, but no more than that. (ex. BUG fish would need on-color moxen, Lotus and Either Ancestral or Walk. I suppose you could cut one of the moxen instead of either Walk or Recall).

I just want to see SOMETHING done in the near future to offer me incentive to get back in to Vintage. a NYC vintage scene would be kinda cool *cough cough* .

[swawagon]

Mmmm.

I want power, I just can't afford it. I work full time as a graphic designer... yaddyadda just no extra cash.

I assure you the power that I win, I keep! When I have it all then I may trade. Are you suggesting cash prizes over cards?

I want full power, and certainly prefer to play with real cards. However I don't really care if my opponents or myself use all real cards or all proxies? I want to play the deck I want to play, not a deck based solely on money. I like the game and support it quite a bit I'd say. I buy some singles of small stuff online, from card stores, and from trade. I have most of the Vintage fare; Force of Wills, Dual lands, a Drain...

I have been playing for 12 years. Always wanted, but never could get power. I just don't have money to buy lunch, I mean all the Magic cards that I want.

If I didn't have Proxies I'd not be playing Vintage at all. I'd be priced out. After you have the basics of Vintage, other formats seem much more pricey. Legacy; Tarmogoyfs and Illusionary Masks? — forget-about-it! Standard changing every 3 months?

[AmbivalentDuck]

The problem with totally removing proxies is that you *immediately* disenfranchise too much of the player base.

The vintage catch22 is that there's a limited amount of power, which automatically limits the player base if you increase player investment by banning proxies.  Wizards *could* print more power, but never will.  Wizards *could* support vintage more, but it doesn't sell packs.  So, we really need help from wizards so that we can get them to:

-Print premium versions of power (which is possible...ie.  as foil-only mythic rares) that are expressly vintage-only.

With reasonable art, you'd figure on a foil Mox Pearl being worth at least $200.  Problem is, foil cards are essentially marked if your deck isn't 100% foil...

[Nehptis]

So, we really need help from wizards so that we can get them to:
-Print premium versions of power (which is possible...ie.  as foil-only mythic rares) that are expressly vintage-only.

I agree with some of what you said.  But, what incentive would WOTC have to do this?  If I needed power I would buy these as singles from a dealer.  I would not buy packs in hopes of scoring a mythic rare.

Furthermore, look at the prices for the Current T2 legal Mythic foil rares like Tezz or just a normal rare like Goyf, or a non-T2 card like a foil Fetchland.  If Vintage "Power" staples were printed, that were Vintage playable only, they still would out price a lot of players.  Collectors and players who already have and can afford Power would gobble up these cards in no time.

So, once again I defer to my original statement.  If we want to increase interest in the format, attract new players and provide TOs with the opportunity to host more frequent, smaller FNM like events the DCI should sanction Proxy Vintage tournies.  And I think a perfect condition is; no card from an Extended legal set can be proxied.  How many proxies?  I don't think it much matters since the Extended legal constraint would limit the number of proxies to some extent.

[Stormanimagus]

The problem with totally removing proxies is that you *immediately* disenfranchise too much of the player base.

The vintage catch22 is that there's a limited amount of power, which automatically limits the player base if you increase player investment by banning proxies.  Wizards *could* print more power, but never will.  Wizards *could* support vintage more, but it doesn't sell packs.  So, we really need help from wizards so that we can get them to:

-Print premium versions of power (which is possible...ie.  as foil-only mythic rares) that are expressly vintage-only.

With reasonable art, you'd figure on a foil Mox Pearl being worth at least $200.  Problem is, foil cards are essentially marked if your deck isn't 100% foil...

I'd be curious to know from anyone who knows on these boards: Is the number of power nine ever printed significantly less than the number of tarmogoyfs ever printed. Are they truly "more rare"? Or are they just older/ more powerful cards?

How many unopened Alpha/Beta/Unlimited packs are in existence. Does the amount of opened power allow for an increased player base or are some players hoarding playsets of each card when they only need one copy to compete.

[AmbivalentDuck]

If I needed power I would buy these as singles from a dealer.  I would not buy packs in hopes of scoring a mythic rare.

The point would be that some people would randomly luck out and possibly see it as the start of a vintage collection.  Also, increasing the total amount of power would drive the price *down* so that you don't need to shell out $3k for power.  When I started magic, it was closer to $1k (with Drains) and still prohibitively high.

Besides, it's free advertising for vintage.

[kenoc]

I'm trying to get into vintage, since I like playing with broken decks, and love combo decks.  Especially non-interactive 1st turn combos.

My local store is trying to put something together - she says that many people only want to play non-proxy.  There is ALOT to be said for non-proxy.  First, I can read the cards and look at them.  Second, real cards are real magic.  Fake cards are fake magic.  I don't like playing proxy type 2 decks, why would I like playing proxy type 1?

If people can't get into type 1 because of the cost, then the higher prize support for unpowered decks should help with that.  However, it is very hard to do that in a small tournament.  How do you boost prize support for 50% of the players when there are only 8 total players?

I think 5 proxy or 10 proxy might be the way to go then, rather than 15-25.  I hope my local store can get a 5-10 proxy going.

As a note, I'm seeing that - unfortunately - there is alot less brokenness in type 1 than I had hoped.  I'm thinking the format might actually support creatures!  For shame!

Also, making CE cards tournament legal is just another way of saying REPRINT.  NO TO REPRINTS.  Besides blessing cards that are essentially proxies, and also tanking the value of real magic cards, CE cards are not real magic cards.  They don't look the same.  What I mean is that the DCI should not bless proxies as tournament legal.  If they bless CE cards as tournament legal, why not bless counterfeit cards?  How about really good counterfeit cards?  How about if a card is a really nice proxy, it is tournament legal as well?

[Purple Hat]

The problem with totally removing proxies is that you *immediately* disenfranchise too much of the player base.

The vintage catch22 is that there's a limited amount of power, which automatically limits the player base if you increase player investment by banning proxies.  Wizards *could* print more power, but never will.  Wizards *could* support vintage more, but it doesn't sell packs.  So, we really need help from wizards so that we can get them to:

-Print premium versions of power (which is possible...ie.  as foil-only mythic rares) that are expressly vintage-only.

With reasonable art, you'd figure on a foil Mox Pearl being worth at least $200.  Problem is, foil cards are essentially marked if your deck isn't 100% foil...

I'd be curious to know from anyone who knows on these boards: Is the number of power nine ever printed significantly less than the number of tarmogoyfs ever printed. Are they truly "more rare"? Or are they just older/ more powerful cards?

How many unopened Alpha/Beta/Unlimited packs are in existence. Does the amount of opened power allow for an increased player base or are some players hoarding playsets of each card when they only need one copy to compete.

I don't have an actual number for you.  but afaik the first large print run base set was Revised, which contains no power.  One of the rationales behind creating the power cards at all in the beginning was that players were unlikely to see more than 1 of any rare card ever.  Print run size increased significantly with fallen empires....alpha, beta, unlimited, AN, Legends and the Dark were all MUCH smaller print runs than modern sets.

[Nehptis]

If I needed power I would buy these as singles from a dealer.  I would not buy packs in hopes of scoring a mythic rare.

The point would be that some people would randomly luck out and possibly see it as the start of a vintage collection.  Also, increasing the total amount of power would drive the price *down* so that you don't need to shell out $3k for power.  When I started magic, it was closer to $1k (with Drains) and still prohibitively high.

Besides, it's free advertising for vintage.

Vintage advertising is good and would increase interest and awareness.  But, your logic about driving down price is flawed.  Printing Mythic Rare Foil Power would not be close to enough of a supply increase to affect Power prices.  All that would happen is that the original Power prices would remain the same and the newer Power prices would be higher than any current Foil Rare out there today.

What we are facing is a simple Customer Needs Analysis.  If our Objective is to increase player turn out at Events, then the question is; what must be done to meet that Objective?  (If our Objective is something else, then tell me what it is and I can analyze that, too!)

There is a methodology to this analysis which includes asking a lot of questions like:
Why do players attend / not attend Vintage events?
Is cost of events a factor?  Or accessibility of Events? What about frequency of events?
Is prize support a major factor?
Is cost of decks a factor?
Is the nature of the format (speed / broken plays) a factor?  Or is it a false perception of the format the cause?
Is it the average age of players in Vintage a factor?
Is Sanctioned vs. non-Sanctioned an issue?
Is proxies or number of proxies a factor?

Answer those questions and you can discover if the objective can be met or not.  Meaning, if a large % of the MTG population don't attend Events because they are not sanctioned.  And a large % say they like proxies, then sanction proxy events is the solution.  However, if the factor is that players want Sanctioned tournaments and no proxies.  But, complain that cost of cards is too high, then this is a more challenging scenario to solve.

There may be silver bullets in Vintage decks.  But, they don't exist in real life to solve these complex problems.  Any solution will be imperfect. The idea is to try to provide the best solution with the least amount of risk/impact and most return/reward.

[Purple Hat]

This topic has become too complicated.

People are arguing over the wrong things (such as whether' Ben's geographic comparison is valid) and misunderstanding essential points.  It is partly Ben's fault for not articulating things as clear or as effectively as he could have.

All of the points that people are raising are either distortions of his arguments, misunderstandings, or attacks on certain reasons he advanced, which do not ultimately undermine the conclusions.

Ben is definitely on the shakiest ground when comparing US and European.  But I don't see taht as very important.   Even if he's entirely wrong about that, his conclusions still have plenty of logical support.    When I say I agree with his arguments, that doesn't mean I agree with all of his reasons.  I have found enough reasons in my own experience to think that his arguments, in its broad strokes, are true.   I didn't even realize it until I read his article.   

In any case, the fact that Proxies were important, even necessary, to the growth of Vintage in 2004 does not in any way undermine the argument that Proxies have hurt Vintage in the long run.

I think that proxies have devalued power, but not in the way that Ben is saying or in the ways that most people would interpret that statement.   They have devalued power not simply in the monetary sense, but in the far more important psychological sense.   

People get utility from owning power.  A big part of that, yes, is the fact that they can play them in Vintage tournaments.  But there are other enjoyments that come from it.   There is actually value that most Magic players get when they own power just from the fact of owning it and the happiness that brings them.   Most Magic players can remember how excited they were when they got their Black Lotus or first Ancestral Recall.   They enjoy playing with real Mishra's Workshops, etc.   

The use of proxies has undermined the psychological happinesses and benefits that come with not simply owning power, but the quest to achieve it.   

This leads to detachment.   Detachment makes people less psychologically invested in the format.   If someone OWNS power, they will be more inclined to play in Vintage tournaments on a regular basis (I believe).   It gives them more of a stake in the format, just like someone who owns stock in a copmany has more of a stake in that company's existence, and will care more about it.

Proxies help Vintage in the short run.  They allow people who otherwise don't own power to compete.  But that leads to a series of psychological trade-offs that hurt it in the long run.  There a HOSt of reasons why, so many that I probably can't even document them, but I will name a few.

When 9 times out of 10 people just sell the Mox prize even when they don't own a Mox, that is a problem.   It makes it easier for a player to ease in and out of the format.  It makes it less important to that player whether a tournament is being organized locallly.   If a player owns power and money cards, they will be stronger advocates for more local tournaments, online discussion, community, etc.

Bottom line:


In my opinion, I think we should begin shifting to 5 proxiesand explicitly awarding good prizes to unpowered decks. Have SCG lead the way. 

Steve,
Whether you agree with his conclusion doesn't actually validate his logic.  If his arguments are based on flawed facts then that IS something to discuss when analyzing his logic.  Ben is basically saying because of x, y and z I think proxies hurt vintage.  but if x y and z aren't actually true, or relevant then whether you agree with him about proxies hurting vintage or not he still hasn't proven his point.  At this point the only thing I see from reading Ben's article that even appears valid is his assertion that he knows players who have lost interest because of proxies, unfortunately the plural of anecdote is not evidence.

bottom line: you and Ben can conjecture anything you want regarding the decline in vintage, but that doesn't mean you're making a logical argument, and it certainly doesn't mean that attacking your evidence isn't a reasonable line of argument against you.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

I might add another way that proxies hurt Vintage.  With the June 2008 restrictions, suddenly everyone had to completely switch decks.  If players were relying on a lot of proxies, that sudden shift really hurt them.  Gush didn't have to run a full compliment of Power 9 if they didn't want to, neither did MUD in a lot of deck builds.  So players chould proxy up other expensive cards like duals, Imperial Seal, and whatever else.  The move to TPS, Slaver, and now updated Wiesman Decks thanks to Tez, the Power9 + 4 Mana Drains are everywhere and thus, fewer proxy slots are open.  I'd wager that a lot of people left the format when the 10 proxy limit no longer was enough for them to play "top tier decks."  They just relied too much on proxies in order to play.

However, I could also see that the current decline could also be attributed to the cyclical nature of fads.  In 2004, proxy tournaments became common, lots of people got interested, and now those that weren't really dedicated to the format are trickling out.  IMO, it would take a pretty big shakeup in the B/R list to equal the shot in the arm Vintage got in 2004.  And it would have to be something that allowed unpowered decks to compete.

Peace,

-Troy

[Tha Gunslinga]

I'd be curious to know from anyone who knows on these boards: Is the number of power nine ever printed significantly less than the number of tarmogoyfs ever printed. Are they truly "more rare"? Or are they just older/ more powerful cards?

There are hundreds of times more Tarmogoyfs than power cards out there.

[Concentration]

Menendian offers cheap bourgeoisie psychology as his justification for disenfranchising a huge percent of the current Vintage player base.

If you believe his arguments are not entirely driven by profit-motive I direct you to the following post which conveniently follows directly after a Menendian post:

Just one TO's perspective.

Attendance is only one way of measuring success at a tournament.   I would get 30+ players when I ran proxy events but would sell few if any cards to the players.  Why should I expect to sell cards to players who don't need them?  In an earlier post Steve Menendian mentions that winners of power don't keep and use the card for future tournaments.  They go straight to eBay.  I now only run sanctioned events with additional prizes for best performing non-powered deck.  This has piqued the interest of quite a few players at my store and my sales of singles is pretty healthy because of it.  As time goes on some these players who are un-powered have eventually purchase P9 cards.  The bottom line to my jibberish is that I would rather have 20+ players at a sanctioned event than 30+ at a proxy event.  This gives me long term customers and a financial reason to even consider hosting events.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Carl

I almost never post here for the simple reason that it is much too Menendian-centric and I am of the opinion that Menendian is one of the worst things to happen to Vintage as a format.  As a smug thin-skinned blowhard know-it-all he attracts only the same who then become by fiat "the face of the format".  Has anyone considered that a virtual cult has arisen around a man-child who can not resist responding everytime he is "called out" on an internet message board?  I understand all of Magic is somewhat nerdy, but I can't be the only one repulsed from this community by what can only be termed a "nerdocracy"


All of Menedian and his toadies' argments, diatribes, "suggestions" etc work only in favor of a select, privileged few and are always tilted in their own interests.

Perhaps people sell power, Steve, because it is represents an unjustifialbe "luxury" item considering what other things that amount of money could fetch, even if spent so-to-speak frivilously on other entertainment items.  It is very convenient for you personally, and a few other "elite" (in your own mind) who own power, to draw clever arguments on why "proxies are bad for the format".  Without proxies there is no format.

Blatant Flame. Full warning.
--TAL

[LotusHead]

Perhaps people sell power, Steve, because it is represents an unjustifialbe "luxury" item considering what other things that amount of money could fetch, even if spent so-to-speak frivilously on other entertainment items.  It is very convenient for you personally, and a few other "elite" (in your own mind) who own power, to draw clever arguments on why "proxies are bad for the format".  Without proxies there is no format.

Europe has been doing sanctioned non-proxy tournies successfully for years.  Vintage is obviously a format there!

[Smmenen]

Menendian offers cheap bourgeoisie psychology as his justification for disenfranchising a huge percent of the current Vintage player base.

If you believe his arguments are not entirely driven by profit-motive I direct you to the following post which conveniently follows directly after a Menendian post:

Just one TO's perspective.

Attendance is only one way of measuring success at a tournament.   I would get 30+ players when I ran proxy events but would sell few if any cards to the players.  Why should I expect to sell cards to players who don't need them?  In an earlier post Steve Menendian mentions that winners of power don't keep and use the card for future tournaments.  They go straight to eBay.  I now only run sanctioned events with additional prizes for best performing non-powered deck.  This has piqued the interest of quite a few players at my store and my sales of singles is pretty healthy because of it.  As time goes on some these players who are un-powered have eventually purchase P9 cards.  The bottom line to my jibberish is that I would rather have 20+ players at a sanctioned event than 30+ at a proxy event.  This gives me long term customers and a financial reason to even consider hosting events.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Carl

I almost never post here for the simple reason that it is much too Menendian-centric and I am of the opinion that Menendian is one of the worst things to happen to Vintage as a format.  As a smug thin-skinned blowhard know-it-all he attracts only the same who then become by fiat "the face of the format".  Has anyone considered that a virtual cult has arisen around a man-child who can not resist responding everytime he is "called out" on an internet message board?  I understand all of Magic is somewhat nerdy, but I can't be the only one repulsed from this community by what can only be termed a "nerdocracy"


All of Menedian and his toadies' argments, diatribes, "suggestions" etc work only in favor of a select, privileged few and are always tilted in their own interests.

Perhaps people sell power, Steve, because it is represents an unjustifialbe "luxury" item considering what other things that amount of money could fetch, even if spent so-to-speak frivilously on other entertainment items.  It is very convenient for you personally, and a few other "elite" (in your own mind) who own power, to draw clever arguments on why "proxies are bad for the format".  Without proxies there is no format.

I am very sorry that you think that I am the worst thing that has ever happened to Vintage.   Whether you believe it or not, the reason I write and promote the format is because I love the format and want to see it grow.   If you knew me, I think you would know that.   It honestly saddens me to see when people say things like you say, since I have devoted umpteen hours to hundreds of articles on Vintage.   I won't say that at times my own personality hasn't contributed to criticisms, which at times have been justified.  But I'm only human, and far from perfect. 

I am not unsympathetic to your concerns about proxies.   I do not believe that Magic should be a game about who has more money.   You may disagree with my reasons for agreeing with Ben's conclusion, but you haven't offered a reason to think they are wrong, other than to describe it as "cheap psychology."  Repeated ad hominem attacks don't disprove Ben's point.  In any case, I don't think we need to eliminate proxies, just reduce the number to 5. 

[oneofchaos]

I'd say 10 proxies should cover most players.  With 5 proxies, you can't even run a full set of the power nine.  With 10, you need to obtain grim tutors, mana drains, bazaars, workshops, etc before playing a lot of the decks in the field.  Once you have those cards, odds are you will not leave vintage as easily.  I'd say since a lot of tournaments are being run as 15+ proxies, the need for owning cards aside the commons is vanishing.  It's also allowing players from other formats to swoop in to win a tournament and disappear from this format forever. 

[Smmenen]

Before the rise of proxies, Mox prizes were actually sought after so that people could trade and use them.  Nowadays, Black Lotus goes straight to ebay.   When 9 times out of 10 people just sell the Mox prize even when they don't own a Mox, that is a problem. 

Another way of putting it, and perhaps the best way, is this:

Assume you have no power, and you win a piece of power in a tournament.  Should you sell it or keep it?

With 10 proxies, the system strongly incentivizes you to sell it.    If you have only a couple of pieces of power, it's unlikely, even if you are a particularly good player, in the near term that you will win the rest.   Unless its the last or among the last of the pieces of power, the system incentives immediate sale.

With a lower proxy system (say 5 or less), it's worth keeping the first couple pieces of power.   

When people have less power, they are less likely to test, let alone play in tournaments.  if you own power, you are more likely to be interested in playing the format.  the more people play, the better they will get, and the more Tournaments will happen, since more players will be better and more interested in playing.   

Owning power is like owning a share in Vintage.   It not only has value and makes you concerned about it's health, it also makes you more interested in it and connected to it. 

I want a system where winning a Mox is a prize that Vintage players will want to keep and not sell off immediately. 

[Purple Hat]

I think the problems are more related to those of us who used to play in 2004 either graduating and moving on or growing up and having other priorities.  I mean, looking back I can think of maybe a dozen of players, like me, who used to be regulars and now have either moved to areas where vintage isn't really played or have had their lives change in such a way that keeping up with vintage wasn't really an option.  A lot of the old guard guys who had connections to the pre-proxy days now have wives and kids.  In some areas a new scene has built up, in others the scene has died down some.  I'm not sure there's really been an overall decline in total attendance, players may have just shifted around.  Richmond may have been the place to go for the early power 9's but it's clear that chicago and the midwest is a newer hot spot.  That shouldn't really surprise many of us thinking back since players like Tripple S and Phantom Tape Worm, former stalwarts of the mid atlantic region have moved on and no longer play.  It could be that we're just missing the tournaments because those players who stayed in new england see smaller weekly turnouts, but back in 2004 I don't remember seeing much west coast or denver action posted on these boards.  Maybe I'm wrong.  But I'd have to see numbers to believe that the total active community has become smaller.

[arctic79]

Proxies are required for larger scale tournaments to survive in Vintage.  Plan and simple.  At smaller local tournies you can get away with out proxies for the most part, but the large scale, large prize tournies need attendence.  If they don't get the attendence we don't get the prize support, because if you can not compete against fully powered decks why would you travel a long distance and drop $20-30 on entrance fees.  Why would you start into Vintage if you are going to get trounced because you did not have the coin to buy P9, it can be a little disheartening, and that will affect attendence in the long run because as the older players phase out there will be fewer new players coming in.

I've been a strong supporter of Wizards reprinting the P9 in a stand alone or as a one per box of the core set type of deal.  Those that own Power and bitch about value dropping, please this is vintage, we are pimp hounds, the originals will go for higher value than the reprints.  And don't think that Wizards won't reprint because of value....they don't make any money off the secondary market directly so why should they care.  They won't reprint because of some messed up code they have regarding powerful cards.  As for the shops losing money, i doubt it...Magic is like any other collectible investment...there are no guarantees just risk and if the shop owners do their math correctly they can only win with reprints.

[TimeBeing]

I agree with a lot that Smmenen has mentioned. I have full power, and hate proxing stuff, thus i never get to play Workshop decks. I do pride myself in my deck, and like the fact i can play Sanctioned t1.

Yes, T1 is a little elitist because of that pride, but then again that gives people something to strive for. T1 is a interesting group of players, mostly older, more mature, and even proud group of people. We worked hard to get to play a format many don't. I'll never get to play a pro-tour but I can enter a sanctioned T1 with a fully powered deck, and i'm proud of that achievement.

as a weird side not. i did a SCG T1deck database search for the last year. of the 5 first place decks, 4 of the 5 had exactly 10 cards valued at 75 or more. 1 deck had only 3 power cards in it. Found that kind of interesting, would be curious to know what cards are proxied in SCG top 8 decks.

I also own zero Tramagoyfs, but am buying a Time Vault since i don't have one.

[LordHomerCat]

Yes, T1 is a little elitist because of that pride, but then again that gives people something to strive for. T1 is a interesting group of players, mostly older, more mature, and even proud group of people. We worked hard to get to play a format many don't. I'll never get to play a pro-tour but I can enter a sanctioned T1 with a fully powered deck, and i'm proud of that achievement.

There's an important distinction though.  To get full power, you bought it.  Nothing at all to do with the game, in fact, you don't even have to know how to play to achieve this.  To qualify for the PT, you need to be really good (or really lucky) (and probably both really).  That is a magic achievement.  Having enough disposable income to invest in Power really just isn't comparable.

[tito del monte]

On prize structure in a sanctioned environment: I think the idea of rewarding unpowered players is a good one, and one that will hopefully encourage them to keep interested in the format. But as to attracting new players - what would happen if Vintage cards were offered as prizes in another format, for example Extended? It seems to be a format that at least requires an awareness of previous sets, and perhaps a more mature understanding of the game. If Extended players could win duals or drains or something similar it could encourage them to make the leap to Vintage - where they could then hope to improve their decks through access to prizes for unpowered decks.

[carlossb]

In order to play to Vintage, we need only 2 things:

- Cards: Proxies are necessary.
- Incentive to play, besides playing for fun: Money is needed as a prize.

Give us a lot of money if we win your Tournaments, instead of pieces of paper. We will play Vintage for sure.

[bluemage55]

One of the rationales behind creating the power cards at all in the beginning was that players were unlikely to see more than 1 of any rare card ever.

I'm inclined to disagree.  Back then there was little understanding of things like card advantage and such, so card values were a bit off.  Black Lotus used to be less than a dollar.  Power was simply printed because what little R&D there was didn't know how broken they were.

[rilegard]

First of all I've been a player of T1 since 4 edition. I stop playing several times and got back again.
The only P9 card that I purchased was Mox Ruby (on 1997). And sold it several months later
due to the impression that the Vintage format was disappearing. In fact, a lot of people here in
Spain get rid off p9 cards with the same felling. 
I think that the problems that Vintage had in 2004 (for example) are more or less the same than
2008 problems and it should be the same in the future if things doesn't change:
High entry barriers (high cost of the cards).
Little attention to the format from WOTC.

I agree with an article that Juan Trimiño published in Serra (spanish magazine about magic) on 2004 about T1:
(here you are the translation of some highlights). If only I could post the entire article.

It is obvious that T1 is a format supported thanks to vintage players and tournament organizers
...
T1 is a format where nearly no one can compete
...
As long as the number of T1 players is reduced WOTC will keep it out of the circuit
...
And the way to do it? The solution are limited proxies
...

The article does not mention a determined number of proxies but it remarks that the number should
be limited enought to keep the 'collectible status' of a card.

Just to point that even this article is from 2004 it can be applied nowadays.

Alternative approach to the use of proxies in a tournament (just an opinion):

Imagine a tournament that rewarded 200$ 100$ and 50$ for first second and third winner.
Let's allow 10 proxies.
If the winner used proxies he shouldn't be able to get the total amount. Let's say -5$ by proxy.
Second and third reward could be cutted by -3$ and -2$ by proxy (for example).
All the money "cutted" finally must be rewarded to 4th, 5th ... player applying the same logic.
So if you play with proxies you won't get the total prize. It's a reasonable approach.

[Schonkreuz]

I have been following this thread from the start(although I have not read the article) and I just wanted to say why without proxies I couldn't play magic. Like most of the people in the world I have little money, to add to that I am a magic playing dating another magic player. I get shorted cards sometimes because I think he is the better player thus he deserves to play with them. Even if as a couple we obtained a full set of power I would likely never play with it...and could never possibly be able to afford another set for myself. With this said I have recently found my new favorite deck TPS, after moving away from my version of budget decks such as WBg and other random aggro things it was so nice to be able to play a "real" deck. As for the last post about cutting prize per proxy if I were to ever get enough money to buy power I would...if I ever won power I would keep it. Cutting prize money seems a bit counter productive because now these people who might go out and buy power get even less towards it. I don't know if a lot of people do this but the money I win at Saturday night vintage either goes towards my meal for the night or a card I need. 

I know this may not be the case for everyone, just saying this Vintage players reason for loving proxies.