A Meditation on Mystic Remora

[GerryT]

I didn't day two PT Kyoto and it didn't take much twisting of my arm from David Ochoa to convince me to play Vintage. I used to play a couple times a month when I was living in MN and always loved the format. LSV had told me about Rich Shay's Remora deck a few weeks earlier and it sounded completely awesome. Thankfully, LSV had the deck sleeved up and ready to go.

Turns out LSV's blessedness applies even to his possessions, as I easily 7-0ed the tournament which got me an Ancestral Recall and an entry into the Beta/Revised Italian/P3K draft.

I loved the deck. When I had a decent amount of lands and spells (and wasn't facing down a turn one Library), I couldn't possibly lose to another blue deck. I was warned that Fish and Stax might be tough matchups, so I was kind of looking around for some Energy Fluxes, but never found them. I played another Thoughtseize and Smother in those slots instead, which turned out to be much better as the tournament didn't have any Stax decks and I played against Fish twice.

The list is posted in the Japanese sideboard coverage here:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptkyo09/vintage

I would probably cut the Fact or Fiction for another Thirst for Knowledge and add another fetch land, as sometimes I was short on black mana. The Swamp could potentially be a Library, but again, the list was somewhat prepared to fight Stax. Other than that, the deck was amazing. Inkwell Leviathan is much better than Colosssus, especially in this deck. Sower is much better than Old Man of the Sea and it isn't close. Psychatog is decent, but could probably be anything.

Once I get back into the States, I will probably write up a full report.

Thanks Rich!

[The Atog Lord]

Congratulations. Thanks for the heads up on that, Gerry. I'm looking forward to reading your report whenever you write it.
Was Tinker+Leviathan+TimeVault worth including? How about the Smothers in the board?

Rich

[OwenTheEnchanter]

http://www.wizards.com/magic/samplehand.asp?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptkyo09/vintage&decknum=1

Most of these hands are hilarious! also Tinker + Inkwell seems like a perfect fit and shame on only 1 Thirst for Knowledge.

[Smmenen]

I love the goldfish function on Wizards website.  It's one of my favorite things about my Vintage year in review piece.    I just wish it'd let you draw more cards :p  Turn one Meditate into one....two....three... draw new hand :p

[jamestosetti]

Thats a pretty cool decklist. That doesn't look like it was easy to make.

[Frenger]

Congratulations on your finish and Ancestral Gerry!

I was just curious that you mentioned the list was tuned to combat Stax, yet it did not splash red. Red gives you access to Gorilla Shaman, Rack and Ruin, Viashino Heretic, among other cards that are strong against Stax. I understand you didn't build the deck, but if you were to do it again, would you consider a red splash for the Stax MU?

I am forced to play with Sowers due to the fact that Old Men are hard to come by in my area, and I cannot buy or borrow them, but I agree it is very strong. The ability to steal DSC has been relevant a few times when I've played the deck, with the only drawback being one extra mana. I would love to try the deck with Old Men for comparison, but sadly cannot in a tournament setting.

[GerryT]

Owen: Thirst is ok, but not great. There really isn't much to pitch and you already draw a ton of cards.

Frenger: Thanks! LSV clearly built the deck with Stax in mind, as it had 16 lands, 7 of which were basic, and Energy Flux, which is what I assume is the best sideboard card in Ub against Stax. Splashing red kind of opens you up to Wasteland and Energy Flux is arguably better than the red cards you could play.

I think that Sower is just straight up better than Old Man, since you can steal a creature the turn you play it and can actually steal big threats like Colossus and Tarmogoyf.

My tournament report should be up on www.channelfireball.com sometime during this week.

[benthetenor]

I played this deck, with a nod towards Gerry's version (U/B), in the side event at the GP this weekend. Gripes about the structure of the tournament aside, I underperformed by nearly any measure. Granted, I'd only seen the deck for a grand total of 12 hours before the tounament, 10 of which were spent sleeping, but I never felt out of it in any games. I went an abysmal 3-2, when I probably could have x-0ed the tournament, because this deck is one of the sickest I've seen in a long while. I absolutely destroyed combo 2 times I played it (one game, Time-Walking a combo player for five turns in a row with a Mystic Remora), went 1-1 with Tez (which should have been 2-0, but a lack of Needles in the board and completely lack of testing probably killed me), and got destroyed by Rich Mattuzio playing UR Landstill. I'm not sure if much testing could fix that matchup, but it seemed really, really bad for me. Otherwise, this deck is sick, and I'm going to spend a lot of time on it, despite the complete lack of Vintage tournaments in the Midwest.

Notable things about my build:

- 3 Sower of Temptation felt really good. I didn't face fish, but I did steal a Darksteel Colossus. Very nice.

- I fit Ponder in, and I think it deserves a place. It helps dig for lands early, and dig for threats late.

- I was running a singleton Thirst for Knowledge, and a Fact or Fiction. Fact is insane because it gives your opponent a blatant chance to make some sort of huge mistake. Thirst was okay, but there really aren't enough artifacts to support more than one or two, especially when you want to cast every single one of them. I was testing two in the few hours beforehand, and it was definitely worse, especially given my win condition...

- ...which was Inkwell Leviathan. I actually never won with him all tournament, but my opponents all showed me the bounce they boarded in in expectance of D-steel, so it gave me some virtual card advantage, I guess.

- I was running 1 Swamp and 1 Tolarian Academy, which were mixed. I didn't face Stax and did straight up lose to the fact that Swamp doesn't tap for blue one game, so the Swamp was probably wrong. Academy was a bit more ambiguous. I did generate a lot of mana with it some games, but it also got Legend-ed out at least three games. It's probably too swingy, which is why I've gone -those two cards, +Library of Alexandra and 1 Island. Given the low number of artifacts (see Thirst for Knowledge), Academy is probably not good enough, besides which, this is a control deck that only occasionally plays as a combo deck, not vice versa.

One other general note, Vroman played Uba Stax and wrecked the current format, losing only the Stax mirror (not Uba) and Ichorid which is usually about 50/50. Uba Stax (eerily similar to the 2005 list) is a wrecking ball for the format, so prepare for it. Who knows, people may never realize it, but I guess time will tell. Regardless, Commandeering a Goblin Welder or a Crucible of Worlds can straight-up win the game.

[Tobi]

Regardless, Commandeering a Goblin Welder or a Crucible of Worlds can straight-up win the game.

Commandeering a Goblin Welder probably not 

[kkoie]

I also piloted a ver. of the deck at the Chicago GP side event.  I went 3/1 in matches before I left due to time constraints (that and I wasn't very motivated with the horrible prizes).  Anyway I went w/ a Ubr ver.  I made several play mistakes that probably would've resulted in more games won, but I still won those matches I goofed up.

Some thoughts:

I tried out Sowers over Old men and I think they are better.  They cost more and have a smaller ass, but I like the fact that they can steal any creature w/out shroud and attack.

I think Inkwell is a great choice as a tinker target for this deck.  The fact that he has shroud is a huge advantage that I think outweights his lack of indestructibility or 11 power.

I also used psychatogs as in the above list, and I think they have great synergy with the crazy draws this deck has.

My sideboard was as below, I wonder if it is enough to combat stax or mud (my one match loss was due to mud.  I had energy flux 2 islands and inkwell in play, my opponent follows that with tanglewire.  I never drew anymore perm's to feed the tanglewire, thus he eventually killed me off before I could  untap my inkwell.)
1 Energy Flux
1 Viashino Heretic
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Sower of Temptation (3 main)
3 Smother
2 Relic of Proj.
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

[AmbivalentDuck]

Has anyone looked at Bitterblossom as part of an anti-Stax and/or anti-aggro sideboard for the deck?

[DPCyric]

I am working on a playtest gauntlet and I am actually considering Firestorm as an anti-fish strategy, however I do like the idea of Bitterblossom and while it may be slow I think Dominate is worth considering.

[benthetenor]

Regardless, Commandeering a Goblin Welder or a Crucible of Worlds can straight-up win the game.

Commandeering a Goblin Welder probably not 

Apparently, you have never played the Stax mirror or Control Slaver Vs Stax matchup. Having Welder superiority, even if it's only for a few turns, is the key to beating Stax.

[Webster]

Regardless, Commandeering a Goblin Welder or a Crucible of Worlds can straight-up win the game.

Commandeering a Goblin Welder probably not 

Apparently, you have never played the Stax mirror or Control Slaver Vs Stax matchup. Having Welder superiority, even if it's only for a few turns, is the key to beating Stax.

His comment was aimed more at the fact that you can't commandeer a goblin welder because it's a creature.

[sundering jerk]

Are the red elemental blasts in the SB necessary for anything besides countering counters and making sure you don't lose cause someone countered your commandeer? (and yes, I know they hit tinker, Tezz,).

Do you bring them in against combo?

Will some one who has played this deck in tourney please explain?

would spell snare be a consideration since it's blue, most creatures are also 2CC and it is good against Oath.

[DPCyric]

If using Sower would it be a good idea to use Mishra's Factory to slow down smaller men? After pondering anti-aggro solutions some more last night at work I think between Sower and Factory you could really improve the match up against Fish and other aggro decks. The land count would probably have to go up a little bit but I feel there are a few cards that could be cut and I do not think 4 Sower's are necessary but 4 Factory should be included.

[The Atog Lord]

These are two solid comments.

Jerk, REB is mostly there for what you mentioned. I do bring it in against Combo, depending on their build; but Thoughtseize is much much better in that matchup. If you're considering cutting REB, I won't say that's a bad idea; it is at its best in those matchups which are already favorable. On the other hand, blasting Tezzeret already in play has saved me before from certain doom. So far, REB has saved me a game, but splashing a third color hasn't yet cost me a game -- so I still think REB is good. Though, I think going Ub is fine too.

As for factories. I like the card and have thought about it before. I wonder if it would make getting blue mana too difficult. But if you test it, please let us know how it goes.

[benthetenor]

Regardless, Commandeering a Goblin Welder or a Crucible of Worlds can straight-up win the game.

Commandeering a Goblin Welder probably not 

Apparently, you have never played the Stax mirror or Control Slaver Vs Stax matchup. Having Welder superiority, even if it's only for a few turns, is the key to beating Stax.

His comment was aimed more at the fact that you can't commandeer a goblin welder because it's a creature.

Touche. All the more reason to include Old Man or Sower of Temptation!

[Tobi]

If you could steal creatures with Commandeer, I guess no blue deck would like to miss them. 

Regarding the Stax matchup, Commandeering a Crucible is indeed quite good. Smokestack is also a good target. Other than that, there is not much to steal with Commandeer from a Stax player, besides goodies like Sol Ring.

[Purple Hat]

If you could steal creatures with Commandeer, I guess no blue deck would like to miss them. 

Regarding the Stax matchup, Commandeering a Crucible is indeed quite good. Smokestack is also a good target. Other than that, there is not much to steal with Commandeer from a Stax player, besides goodies like Sol Ring.

would you really comandeer a sol ring?  maybe I don't understand the matchup as well as I could, but if you're willing to trade 3 cards for an artifact that makes 2 colorless mana....

[Tobi]

would you really comandeer a sol ring?  maybe I don't understand the matchup as well as I could, but if you're willing to trade 3 cards for an artifact that makes 2 colorless mana....

Depending on the situation, 2 colorless mana more can be quite good against shops, even if it costs you 3 cards.

[Purple Hat]

would you really comandeer a sol ring?  maybe I don't understand the matchup as well as I could, but if you're willing to trade 3 cards for an artifact that makes 2 colorless mana....

Depending on the situation, 2 colorless mana more can be quite good against shops, even if it costs you 3 cards.

Yeah, but in most of the situations where 2 colorless mana is quite good you're not going to be in a position to comandeer.  If they've got spheres, etc on the table sol ring is good, but if they've got spheres and other lock parts on the table you're probably not stealing things anyway.

[kkoie]

would you really comandeer a sol ring?  maybe I don't understand the matchup as well as I could, but if you're willing to trade 3 cards for an artifact that makes 2 colorless mana....

Depending on the situation, 2 colorless mana more can be quite good against shops, even if it costs you 3 cards.

Yeah, but in most of the situations where 2 colorless mana is quite good you're not going to be in a position to comandeer.  If they've got spheres, etc on the table sol ring is good, but if they've got spheres and other lock parts on the table you're probably not stealing things anyway.

I can see as part of a turn 1 play, if they  played a non-workshop land, you steal their sol ring to disrupt their tempo.  Specially if you have a mystic remora in play or in hand that you can use the sol ring to feed it.  By the time they recover the loss of the sol ring, hopefully the mystic remora would've added cards to make up for the 3 you ditched for the sol ring.

[Tobi]

I can see as part of a turn 1 play, if they  played a non-workshop land, you steal their sol ring to disrupt their tempo.  Specially if you have a mystic remora in play or in hand that you can use the sol ring to feed it.  By the time they recover the loss of the sol ring, hopefully the mystic remora would've added cards to make up for the 3 you ditched for the sol ring.

Good example. This is what actually happened in a testing game. I was playing Workshop and my opponen Commandeered my 1st Turn Sol Ring. This move gave him a good temp and mana boost, which was worth pithing 3 cards to it.

I am not saying commandeering a Sol Ring is the best move possible, but in some situations a good play.

[The Atog Lord]

I've certainly stolen Mana-generating artifacts on more than one occasion against Workshop decks. Sometimes, three cards in your hand just aren't as good as having a Mox or a Sol Ring in play.

[benthetenor]

How has the version with red been testing against Ichorid? I guess, specifically, post board. I find it to be almost completely unwinnable pre-board, but post I bring in a wide range of threats, which leads me to beat Ichorid something like 90% post-board. Which is a crazy, swingy matchup, but with all of the Ichorids running around lately, it's a board that I can demolish them with.

From the list you posted on page one, it looks like the plan is 7 artifacts. While that does put a big pressure on them, both of those artifacts are also answered by the one thing that they're sure to bring in: Pithing Needle. I would suggest Pithing Needle of your own and Yixlid Jailer. Having a diversified threat base means that they have to mulligan to Bazaar AND the correct answer, not just any answer. In testing, I haven't had any problems dropping a disruption piece turn 1, then drawing into a second or third, which pretty much seals the deal. They can play through 1, but 2 is hard and 3, combined with all of our counterspells, is game.

Note, this is mana-less Ichorid I've been testing against. Idk about the mana versions, but they're probably a little better at fighting off disruption.

I guess the red splash is solely to help out the workshop matchups? I need to get some sideboard games against them, but the current plan against stax is 2 Needle, 3 Energy Flux and 1 Hurkyl's Recall. I imagine that that will be a lot for them to fight off.

Granted, the only major difference between red and not red seems to be -2 fetchlands, +2 Volcanic Island, so I guess it's not a terribly difficult splash to pull off. I just need to test the board against the Stax matchup to see if it needs any help.

[The Atog Lord]

Ben,

Red is neither here nor there against Ichorid. The only cards that you'll want to board in for the matchup are artifacts or black; whether you have Volcanic Islands in the maindeck isn't a factor. If you have Mogg Fanatics or Chewer, then by all means bring them in; but those aren't cards that you'd want to include in the board just because of the Ichorid matchup.

As for Pithing Needle, I would really be thrilled to see Ichorid players bringing these in against me. They cast Pithing Needle. You Live The Dream and Commandeer it, then drop it on your side of the table naming Bazaar of Baghdad. You'll probably win the game, and have a fun story to tell for the rest of the day.

[T00L]

Ben,

Red is neither here nor there against Ichorid. The only cards that you'll want to board in for the matchup are artifacts or black; whether you have Volcanic Islands in the maindeck isn't a factor. If you have Mogg Fanatics or Chewer, then by all means bring them in; but those aren't cards that you'd want to include in the board just because of the Ichorid matchup.

As for Pithing Needle, I would really be thrilled to see Ichorid players bringing these in against me. They cast Pithing Needle. You Live The Dream and Commandeer it, then drop it on your side of the table naming Bazaar of Baghdad. You'll probably win the game, and have a fun story to tell for the rest of the day.

Man oh man if only things like that happened in real life God commandeer is hot

[benthetenor]

Ben,

Red is neither here nor there against Ichorid. The only cards that you'll want to board in for the matchup are artifacts or black; whether you have Volcanic Islands in the maindeck isn't a factor. If you have Mogg Fanatics or Chewer, then by all means bring them in; but those aren't cards that you'd want to include in the board just because of the Ichorid matchup.

As for Pithing Needle, I would really be thrilled to see Ichorid players bringing these in against me. They cast Pithing Needle. You Live The Dream and Commandeer it, then drop it on your side of the table naming Bazaar of Baghdad. You'll probably win the game, and have a fun story to tell for the rest of the day.

I have made that play at least twice in testing, and it is definitely a kick to their junk. I do think that you should try to fit in some Jailers, at least, because it means that they have to find creature removal in addition to artifact destruction in order to beat you.

For reference, my current board is:

3 Energy Flux
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Thoughtseize
2 Smother

I guess the biggest question I have is if the red cards against Stax are good enough to justify having to fetch out a Volcanic Island, as opposed to just sitting on basics for Energy Flux. Again, I haven't actually tested the post-board matchup yet, but I would think that Energy Flux, combined with counterspells, would slow them down enough to beat them. In the matchups where Red Blast matters, we're not likely to face wastelands, so Volcanics aren't an issue. Red Blasts are definitely a good reason for the splash, though my gut tells me that we're already a favorite in the blue control matchups, especially with Thoughtseize.

[DPCyric]

As for factories. I like the card and have thought about it before. I wonder if it would make getting blue mana too difficult. But if you test it, please let us know how it goes.

Perhaps, the land count would certainly have to go up and maybe 4 is not the right number. I will be testing it, I play a variant of UR Phid and Remora is a match up that I really need to play against plus the deck is just plain fun.