A Meditation on Mystic Remora

[Negator13]

He has Repeal for that purpose, which does it better for no loss of CA.
Thran Turbine is interesting, as it lets you cast Meditate on the cheap and pay for Remora.
Sower of Temptation seems a lot better than Old Man.

EDIT: Scratch that second part, I just RTFC. Using it only to help Remora is definitely way too narrow.

[chrissss]

Congratulations, I enjoyed reading that a lot. It's always nice to see people come up with new ideas, and actually using them to win a tournament.

I have to agree with your points about oath, ever since i got back I have been tinkering with my Oath, and I think if I don't find something soon, I will abandon it. without brainstorms, oath has way too many dead cards in hand

[John Jones]

Seems like a deck worth testing.

First initial thoughts:

1) Why no mystical tutor?
2) Why no echoing truth/chain of vapor?
3) If you are playing drain, why no Fact or fiction?


Now, another question just for rules, if you comandeer an empty the warrens or tendrils, do you get the copies since you control the card that made the copies or does it work just like a nomral counterspell would?

[theLastGnu]

You would get the first copy, the rest automatically go on the stack after the trigger from playing it resolves.

[John Jones]

Yeah, thats what I figured but I wasn't completely sure.

[M.Solymossy]

Lets be honest here, if you have a Commandeer up, you're NEVER going to cast it on Tendrils.  There will always be something insane to commandeer (Demonic Tutor, Grim Tutor, Yawgmoths Will, Ancestral, etc).

[TracerBullet]

Having now tested it a little bit, a few thoughts -


1 - You're really light on drain sinks.  A few of the options mentioned here - Fact, Gifts, etc - May help that.

2- The mana base is pretty solid.

3- The draw engine is solid, once again with the caveat that it sucks against aggro.

4- 1x (or 2x) Echoing Truth might not be a bad idea.  Repeal is okay in some situations, but is really best for bouncing your Remora to reset the Cumulative Upkeep.  If the opponent could resolve a Tinker/Oath early game, you're kinda up shit creek, and you have enough search to hypothetically get ET and stop the bleeding.


I added Pithing Needles to the board, as I find them infinitely more useful than the 18 crypt effects you have in there.  They double up as both Ichorid and non-Ichorid hate, which is always a good thing.

[serracollector]

Decklist from Myriad Games, January 17 2008

Land
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island
    5 Island
    3 Polluted Delta
    2 Flooded Strand
    1 Library of Alexandria

Artifact Mana
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Ruby

Win Conditions
    1 Darksteel Colossus
    1 Tinker
    1 Voltaic Key
    1 Time Vault

Reasons to Splash Black
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Yawgmoth's Will

Stack Control
    4 Force of Will
    3 Commandeer
    1 Misdirection
    4 Mana Drain

Restricted Draw
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk

The Engine
    4 Mystic Remora
    4 Meditate

Board Control
    4 Old Man of the Sea
    2 Repeal


I have been out of the loop for a while honestly, but some suggestions unless I am totally off the current meta

1.  Psionic Blast - maybe 1-2 instead of Old Man?  It can take out goyfs early on, and can kill tezzeret at instant speed, only costs 3 mana, can be pitched to al the counters, and is an auto kill for 99% of the critters you worry about (welders, fish, goyf, tezz etc)
2. Echoing Truth -  I've seen a lot of decks using the 9 spheres, and repeal is inneficient at that pt if they have multipls out, same with chalice(s).  Commandeering a sphere does nothing obv. Echoing truth can take out all there spheres in 1 swoop, then drop and win etc.
3. Fact is just ass good if not better than mediate.  Period.  Should be included in a drain deck no?

And just a tid bit note....its too bad you can't use Drain mana to pay Remora's cost 

[nineisnoone]

Though there isn't any card I would suggest over it, I'm wondering how relevant Drain mana was.  Generically, I have just been exploring other options in other decks (muddle the mixture for it's transmute and negate for it's colorless requirement).

[DPCyric]

I played with Platinum Control before the mass restriction and it had a lot in common with this deck, I've been tweaking your list a little and here is what I would probably play:

//NAME: Remora
        1 Darksteel Colossus
        1 Voltaic Key
        1 Time Vault
        1 Misdirection
        3 Commandeer
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
        1 Echoing Truth
        2 Repeal
        3 Control Magic
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Brainstorm
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        1 Tinker
        1 Fact or Fiction
        3 Meditate
        4 Mystic Remora
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Library of Alexandria
        2 Flooded Strand
        2 Polluted Delta
        2 Volcanic Island
        4 Underground Sea
        5 Island
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  4 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  3 Relic of Progenitus
SB:  3 Rack and Ruin
SB:  1 Engineered Explosives

I cut the Ponder for Mystical Tutor because I felt it played better in the deck (you have Remora's at Sorcery speed for U and Mystical Tutor can fetch goodness like Tinker on an opponents extra Meditate turn), went to Control Magic instead of Old Man so I can steal Oath creatures/Tarmogoyf/etc and worked in an Echoing Truth. I also worked an Engineered Explosives in the side to help out with Fish and other match ups. I really like this deck and will probably play it on the side, thanks for sharing your list

[Rock Lee]

Grats on the Finish Rich! I've been kicking myself for days not at not waiting and chalicing @ 3 instead of 5, which would've given me a game 3.

next time! *shakes fist*

[c dizzle]

Thran Turbine is way too narrow. Braid of Fire is interesting in other decks using this engine, since it has a lot of other applications. If you've tested this deck, you'll see that Braid of Fire doesn't work in this shell. I've been working on a UR Fish build that has been promising if not a little inconsistent.

[Holmes]

Regarding the decks gameplan of drawing lots of cards and controlling the game with pitch spells, how do you see Daze in the counter arsenal? I'm tinkering with a 10-proxy (5 moxen, lotus, time vault, ancestral, time walk) version of the deck and as I don't own basically any power or semi-power, I'm testing Daze in Mana Drain slots. Apparently it's not as powerful, but it gives more disruption for the early turns where drain wouldn't be online. Sometimes you need to counter 2-3 times a turn and if any of those are Commandeers, you will run out of cards. Daze gives a card-wise free counter to soften things a little.

A notable problem comes up when you start without moxen, play remora and need to Daze your only land to your hand thus killing remora in the process. The biggest problem still seems to be that unlike Mana Drain, Daze is hardly a hard counter after the first few turns.

[The Atog Lord]

how do you see Daze in the counter arsenal?

Given that this deck is very full of Pitch magic, Daze may at first appear to fit what the deck is attempting to accomplish. However, as you've already pointed out, Mystic Remora and Daze have rather poor synergy. In fact, because this deck has so few nonland permanents, making land drops is the primary way for this deck to establish board position. Therefore, Daze is to inconsistent with the primary objectives of this deck to run. If you find yourself needing early disruption, something like Thoughtseize as a two-of would be fine maindeck.

[Holmes]

The more I test Daze, the more subpar it seems to be. This leads me to another alternative, if I want to keep blue count higher and therefore not use THoughtseize. And that would be Spell Snare. As I'm basically a legacy player, I'm not excatly sure how many targets vintage decks usually run. Legacy basically rolls around 2cc cards but would Spell Snare have any measurable impact on generally played vintage decks? It's cheap and it's a (conditional) hard counter. That's why it caught my eye. And of course, it would be awfully easy to just replace Mana Drains with Counterspells, but I'd rather add there something cheaper, as Remora needs a lot of mana and I seem to hardly ever have UU up when remora+meditate get going.

[swawagon]

I@n played a similar list in Cedarburg in the past and one of his biggest problems was the 50 minute round. He drew for time while in good positions many times.
How do you address time constraints with a deck that can run very long?

And one reason Control Magic and Threads are often not as good as Old Man is that Old Man can win if there are no other critters on board. However Sower is a decent thought.

And in a different vein I do love Glenda as another win condition, a Drain sink, and a major counterspell card. Glenda doesn't really address opposing creatures I realize, but it is a control house.

[Stormanimagus]

I@n played a similar list in Cedarburg in the past and one of his biggest problems was the 50 minute round. He drew for time while in good positions many times.
How do you address time constraints with a deck that can run very long?

I've found this to a problem with other control decks too, like UR Standstill, and I've decided against ever playing such a deck, because I begin to make mistakes when I get late in a round and know that I need to wrap things up in order NOT to draw.

Some players, like Jeff C., can play control decks well. I'm just not one of them. Knowing this about yourself is important if you want to place well at a tourney. I'd rather play a deck that's a bit more solo-istic (Ritual Combo or Lockdown deck) where mastery of the deck is really based on solving the jigsaw puzzle of winning as quickly as possible through all the potential road-blocks set in your way.

This is another reason I think Tezzeret is too good. It does require SOME control savvy and playskill to master, but it seems to me like the learning curve for it is not as steep as some decks because you can play the control game and then just unleash a sick combo to just win right there. Tezzeret is a unique type of control deck in that I really don't see it as having a danger of going to time very often.

[Holmes]

As I'm still struggling with the 10-proxy environment, I replaced Old Men with Tarmogoyfs and adjusted the mana base to support those (-2 island, +2 tropical island.) They address the creature problems nicely, but every now and then Tarmogoyfs being green screw my Commandeers/Fows epicly. On the other hand, they end games on time and negate opponents goyfs. Glen-elendra Archmage seems interesting, but as I can't support Mana Drain, it seems also too expensive to cast.

So far a turn 1 or 2 Juggernaut spells more trouble than anything. Tarmogoyf is one solution to that.

[Diakonov]

That new blue creature Esperzoa might be a good replacement for Goyf if you need something aggro-ish and still blue.  In this deck he also helps maintain your mana base while supporting Remora (tap mox to pay for remora, bounce to hand, replay).

[Qube]

Yes, but then you need to lay down an Esperzoa before the remora. And often (if its possible) you want to play remora in the first turn. So Esperzoa helps in the moment the remora#1 die and you can play him. But Esperzoa I can see in more than only shop.decs. The time will come

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

This deck is really cool. Did you ever consider disrupting shoal? It seems to me that the curve is rather smooth and most threats in vintage are 2/3 CMC. Not to mention it works well with the massive draw engine and the idea of tapping out to remora/meditate by keeping it going with another "FoW" seems interesting.

[Holmes]

I'm willing to suggest a replacement for colossus: Inkwell Leviathan. As it's is one turn slower than colossus, it is unblockable and has shroud. Shroud matters, since everybody and their cousins pack answers to Tinker -> robot. It is also blue, and this deck likes blue cards. In marginal occasions it could be hardcasted, but I will not use that as an argument as it rarely matters.

[neotrophy]

One interesting (well, to me) observation on this deck.  It is one of the few that can actually regularly make use of Time Vault without Voltaic Key.  Rich shows one use for it when he uses it to allow him to untap his Old Men of the Sea and swing, but I would imagine that the more common use is to simply store up a turn when you have some mana and Mystic Remora in play.  Gifts used to use Time Walk to allow Darksteel Colossus to swing for the win, and this deck can almost use Time Vault as another Time Walk.  Very cool.

I think Disrupting Shoal definite deserves some testing.

[mightymouz]

As some people suggested daze or spell snare as an extra early counter, I was wondering why Thoughtseize (over Duress) was not mentioned. True, it is not blue, but it is a preemptive counter that could help the aggro match up. I really like this deck btw.

[BruiZar]

I like how, should you play black, Disrupting Shoal only costs 2 life when flipped with Confidant

[vassago]

Just this past sunday, I played this deck at the t1 down in Tucson, AZ. There were 23ish people that played, and we did a top4 split (the top 4 being shaymora, oath, red/blue shops, and i dont recall the fourth list).  Now I have been keeping an eye on this deck list, and the reports section here on the Drain, brooding over playing it due to all the talk of its success that I have read about. Several things were appealing to me about this deck. First of all, I love blue cards.  Also, this deck does what my favorite thing to do in magic is: draw cards, take extra turns, and win. It does this very well. Last, but not least, I get to make old people jokes when I go into geezer beats with the old man.   =oD   Before I go into match ups, and how it went, I would like to give Rich his props for designing a totally awesome deck! You truly are a type 1 master. My description to people of how this deck plays is "It is bonkers."  I sincerely believe this deck should be named "Shaymora".

Round 1: Bye, totally gay just for the record

Round 2: Played against mono red shop-esk build with black for duress effects.  I drop Remora on turn 1 and he plays into it. The card advantage won me the game, due to quickly assembly key/vault.  It was cute to see that Rob Lloyd wasnt aware of the current errata on time vault, but to his defense he hasnt been able to play t1 lately due to personal issues. I board out misdirection, and 3 commandeers for rack and ruin and 3 fluxes. Game two takes forever and i would have won 1-0 if it wasnt for his super top decking of the much needed red blast on my commandeer of his original red blast targeting the old man. bawlz    T_T

Round:3 Playing against blue white fish manned by Christian? i believe his name was.  Old man of the sea won me this round.  Just for notes, I board out 4 remora and two commandeers for 2 thought seize, E-e, 2 REB, and 1 pyroblast.

Round 4: Playing against Dan Springler who had been slinging Sullivan Solution plus erayo.  I honestly thought i would have lost this round, but luckily due to my sick ability to draw old man i got game 1.  Game 2 was draw go for a bit until I hard cast the big guy. By draw go I mean I may have cast meditate four times this game. GG when I misdirect the diabolic edict.  Sucks that he drew nothing but land that game. I dont remember exactly what I boarded, but i know it was very similar to the blue white fish boarding.

Round 5: I draw with Matt playing angel Oath.  Since I never played this deck at all before the tourny, I would have liked to play against an oath deck, but I decided not to ask for a couple of casual games because I would rather trade. 

Top 8. I play blue white fish again.  Game 1 was the same old song and dance performed by a couple of old guys..  Game 2 I get crushed by by a team of mages who basically went uncontested due to my lack of mana sources.  Sad thing was that I had a hand full of Old Sea Men. Game 3 was a bit more interactive. I turn 1 tinker for the big guy, and it is promptly STP'd.  He does fairly well with dealing with the old man and beating my face in with cats and dog until i rip the  other half of the key/vault combo.

Over all, I had fun and will be most certainly playing this again. Also here is the list i played

  3 Underground Sea
   3 Volcanic Island
   4 Island
   3 Polluted Delta
   2 Flooded Strand
   1 Library of Alexandria
   1 Darksteel Colossus
   3 Old Man of the Sea
   1 Black Lotus
   1 Sol Ring
   1 Mox Pearl
   1 Mox Emerald
   1 Mox Sapphire
   1 Mox Jet
   1 Mox Ruby
   1 Tinker
   1 Voltaic Key
   1 Time Vault
   1 Demonic Tutor
   1 Vampiric Tutor
   1 Yawgmoth's Will
   4 Force of Will
   3 Commandeer
   4 Mana Drain
   1 Brainstorm
   1 Ancestral Recall
   1 Time Walk
   4 Mystic Remora
   4 Meditate
   2 Repeal
   1 Fact or Fiction
   1 Misdirection
   1 Echoing Truth
   1 Merchant Scroll

// Sideboard:
SB: 3 Energy Flux
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Rack and Ruin
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Thoughtseize

[Implacable]

Question about the board: in testing, were five graveyard hate cards enough to consistently beat Ichorid in Games 2 and 3?  'Cause I'm not sure that a relatively slow control deck could make that work.

[Tha Gunslinga]

SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

That does seem like enough to handle Ichorid.

[Harlequin]

Without getting too much into it, I would warn against getting 'too creative' with the control package for this deck.

4 Force
3-4 Drains
3-4 Commandeer/Misdirrect

Remora changes the deck alot.  Managing your mana in this deck is like walking on a tightrope.  You often have to make choices about mana based on what could happen rather than what did happen.  For this reason cards like Duress and Disrupting Shoal are never really going to be stronger than consistant and free Commandeer or Misdirrection.   Daze is another fairly poor card for this deck because often you're using remora to force the game longer, where daze is an early game card.  Your opponent will inevitably have more mana by the time they are ready to start doing things. 

I would highly sugest testing this deck as a "net deck" for a while before making any big changes regaurding the mana base or disruption suit.  Remora is an amazing card, but it has its own mentality and speed which is unique from other vintage decks. 

Having played countless matches on BOTH sides of the table (running and staring down remora), I can say that playing against the deck is very intimidating.  You often feel like you are being hammered by an avalanche of card advantage.  When you play the remora side of the table, you get a feel for how delicate the deck is.  And often you are playing the odd's more than you let on.  Everything you do has risk and reward, and playing against a player who understands remora can back you into a wall quickly.  One of the faults of the deck is that sometimes its hard to actually -win- when your are winning.

[vassago]

SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

That does seem like enough to handle Ichorid.

I am slightly familiar with peoples play styles down in tucson.  I had a strong feeling i would see more shop type builds, and probably no one would play dredge. It would have been amusing had some one threw me a curve ball and actually played it, because i might have gotten crushed.  Luckily for me, no one was playing dredge at all.  The tournament this saturday here at Gamer''s Inn I will not be sooo ballsy,because I do anticipate some one to be playing dredge.  In other words, I felt it was a meta game choice, but for the record the actual sideboard of 2 flux and 3 jailer I feel is more correct walking into an unknown metagame.