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dopamine
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« on: January 21, 2009, 06:19:05 pm » |
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Hey guys, this card just got spoiled from Conflux, and I wanted to know what everyone thinks of its applications for Vintage. The CMC is a bit prohibitive for Vintage at 5, but I was thinking perhaps sideboard in a Drain deck against Oath/Tendrils? For those who don't know what it does, here is the card:
Telemin Performance - 3UU
Sorcery (R)
Target opponent reveal cards from the top of his/her library until a creature card has been revealed. Put all non-creature cards revealed this way into that player's graveyard, then put the creature card into play under your control.
While in most other formats this would suck, against many decks in Vintage, this becomes either:
Mill entire deck
or
Mill deck, steal Colossus/Sundering Titan/Hellkite Overlord/Akroma, etc.
I am a bit new to this, so I would appreciate some input. Let me know what you think.
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BruiZar
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2009, 06:27:56 pm » |
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Although you may steal a few games here and there, chances are you're going to run into alot of decks running welders, confidants, goyfs, mindcensors, kataki's juggernauts, canonists and other creatures that don't win you the game right now.
extract on DSC and then using performance on some combo decks is cute, but I wouldn't count on winning a tournament with it.
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dopamine
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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2009, 07:43:12 pm » |
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Although you may steal a few games here and there, chances are you're going to run into alot of decks running welders, confidants, goyfs, mindcensors, kataki's juggernauts, canonists and other creatures that don't win you the game right now.
extract on DSC and then using performance on some combo decks is cute, but I wouldn't count on winning a tournament with it.
Makes sense. I wasn't advocating it as a maindeck card, but for sideboard use. I can see what you mean though, against most decks this card would be fairly useless. |
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rikimaru75
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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2009, 07:52:55 pm » |
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It seems to really only be effective on TPS, Oath, and Tezzeret decks though. Stealing a Progenitus/Colossus might just be game.
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TopSecret
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2009, 07:56:38 pm » |
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This card seems like a really brutal sideboard card at the very least.
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Ball and Chain
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dopamine
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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2009, 08:11:02 pm » |
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This card seems like a really brutal sideboard card at the very least.
My thoughts exactly - and the decks it's best against are fairly prominent decks too. |
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Mith
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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2009, 08:30:47 pm » |
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How is this any better than Bribery? At least with that card, you can choose what you want...  |
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"Never let your sense of morals keep you from doing what's right."
-Salvor Hardin
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dopamine
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« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2009, 08:33:13 pm » |
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How is this not better than Bribery? At least with that card, you can choose what you want... This card mills. Usually, against the decks that you would want to bring this in, the ability to choose what you want doesn't matter much (eg. 1 DSC, 1 Sundering Titan, Oath's creatures). Considering how few/no creatures some Vintage decks play, however, the mill seems quite relevant. |
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Tha Gunslinga
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« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2009, 09:18:29 pm » |
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Jester's Cap, activated, costs 1 more mana. Is this really better?
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Don't tolerate splittin'
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LordHomerCat
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« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2009, 09:35:59 pm » |
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I prefer not to Mill decks that are built around Yawgmoth's Will. Oh and Oath has Gaea's Blessing... so where is it that milling would be good?
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Team Meandeck Team Serious LordHomerCat is just mean, and isnt really justifying his statements very well, is he?
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dopamine
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« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2009, 09:50:04 pm » |
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I prefer not to Mill decks that are built around Yawgmoth's Will. Oh and Oath has Gaea's Blessing... so where is it that milling would be good?
Like I said, I'm a relative newcomer, so I was looking for outside thoughts. From what I can see, however, against Oath, the primary advantage is stealing a fatty. It would probably be dangerous to mill a Will deck, unless it was playing 0 creatures. I know this card has a low probability of being playable (although I still think that it's not bad), but I just wanted to see what cards in the set might be Vintage-worthy. |
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beder
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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2009, 12:37:29 am » |
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I feel like this card has definitely some potential in a drain build :
- it is blue
- sure the CC is important but not more than Tezzeret for instance. 5CC with 2 blue is accessible in vintage.
- it may be used in an offensive way : against most of the decks, playing this card targetting on opponent is like "tinkering your own dsc and removing the alternative win condition of opponent" at the same time : this is not too bad...
- it may be kind of a tinker for yourself + it puts cards in graveyard
- in a oath build, it may be an efficent alternative way to put big guys into play
- in a build with dsc, this is like a tinker+filling yard
- in a slaver build, it may have some other interesting effects - putting a big guy or a welder in play while filling the yard with other artifacts
I definitely think this has a future.
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2009, 12:43:28 am » |
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It can only target an opponent.
This card is just a risky bribery. Loading up any deck's graveyard is not smart.
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LotusHead
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2009, 12:56:04 am » |
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It can only target an opponent.
This card is just a risky bribery. Loading up any deck's graveyard is not smart.
It's kinda fun with maindeck Leylines. (I play shops w/leylines). And in the milling processes, perhaps Yawgmoth's Will gets milled. and maybe another win condition. Bomberman and Tez decks often run tormod's crypt/relic anyways. I think this will see play, perhaps lots of play! |
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LordHomerCat
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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2009, 03:12:07 am » |
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It can only target an opponent.
This card is just a risky bribery. Loading up any deck's graveyard is not smart.
It's kinda fun with maindeck Leylines. (I play shops w/leylines). And in the milling processes, perhaps Yawgmoth's Will gets milled. and maybe another win condition. Bomberman and Tez decks often run tormod's crypt/relic anyways. I think this will see play, perhaps lots of play! Not a chance. Have you ever seen Bribery or Aquire cast in vintage? This is pretty much the same card, but worse in a lot of ways. For 5 mana, I would rather have Tezzeret or Future Sight. |
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Team Meandeck Team Serious LordHomerCat is just mean, and isnt really justifying his statements very well, is he?
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sWoRdFiSh`
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« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2009, 03:56:38 am » |
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I think the card suffers greatly from its CMC. Speaking strictly for Vintage, cards that cost this much should have: 1) A built-in ability to cheat its CC (FoW, Mis-D, Gush) 2) Other format-staple cards that can consistently put it into play easily (Workshop, Oath, Mana Drain for Trike, Hellkite Overlord, Tezzeret) 3) Should win you the game outright or at least almost let you (Bargain, Ad Nauseam, Tezzeret), and/or; 4) Should net you an overwhelming board position that the chances of your opponent from recovering upon its resolution would be very slim (Mindslaver, Possessed Portal?). Of course those are pretty narrow examples, but you get the point.  Unless some creature-less deck starts breaking the format wide open, and Dream Halls suddenly finds a home, this will remain on the crap rare binders. Sidenote: It's also almost always better to take care of Oath by removing the enchantment or not allowing it to trigger in the first place than going for its creatures. |
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"Up and down, over and through, back around - the joke's on you."
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chrissss
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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2009, 05:45:30 am » |
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Bribery >
imo.
Milling an opponents deck can be useful, but it can also make the Yawgwill in his hand win the game immediately.
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Yes,Tarmogoyf is probably better than Chameleon Colossus, but comparing it to Tarmogoyf is like comparing your girlfriend to Carmen Electra - one's versatile and reliable, the other's just big and cheap.(And you'd run both if you could get away with)
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BruiZar
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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2009, 06:13:33 am » |
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I dont think bribery is better at all. Bribery can't occasionally win on the spot where this card can.
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Tha Gunslinga
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« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2009, 10:24:58 am » |
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I dont think bribery is better at all. Bribery can't occasionally win on the spot where this card can.
Bribery can win fairly easily, actually. If your opponent's only win condition is Tinker-DSC or Tinker-Plats, it's game over. |
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Don't tolerate splittin'
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KingHeavy
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« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2009, 10:52:14 am » |
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i think every one who has said that milling is bad in vintage has forgotten about painter's servant/grindstone. This card has a tone of potential and its is far superior to bribery or jester's cap. The main use of the card is to mill the deck of a player with zero to one or two creatures. Getting a free fatty is just a bonus. The CMC is nothing with drains in deck or rituals. This card is gonna be killer in vintage against certain deck types. Not fish, but some.
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Purple Hat
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« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2009, 11:26:27 am » |
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i think every one who has said that milling is bad in vintage has forgotten about painter's servant/grindstone. This card has a tone of potential and its is far superior to bribery or jester's cap. The main use of the card is to mill the deck of a player with zero to one or two creatures. Getting a free fatty is just a bonus. The CMC is nothing with drains in deck or rituals. This card is gonna be killer in vintage against certain deck types. Not fish, but some.
I don't think anyone forgot about painter/grindstone. grindstone says "mill til the two cards you flip aren't the same color" painter makes all cards the same color, making grindstone read "mill target player for their deck." this says "mill target opponent til you find a creature" if there was some cheap way to make it not notice creatures this would be a reasonable comparison. otherwise you're virtually guarenteed to hit a creature somewhere and stop milling. At that point your opponent will still have a card to draw next turn and yawgmoth's will becomes a realistic possibility. |
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"it's brainstorm...how can you not play brainstorm? You've cast that card right? and it resolved?" -Pat Chapin
Just moved - Looking for players/groups in North Jersey to sling some cardboard.
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bluemage55
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« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2009, 04:56:57 pm » |
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Bribery can win fairly easily, actually. If your opponent's only win condition is Tinker-DSC or Tinker-Plats, it's game over. If that was the case, though, Extract would do the same thing. |
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LordHomerCat
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« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2009, 05:57:54 pm » |
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Bribery can win fairly easily, actually. If your opponent's only win condition is Tinker-DSC or Tinker-Plats, it's game over. If that was the case, though, Extract would do the same thing. Indeed, and it's only one blue and is STILL completely unplayable. What does that say about a 3UU spell? |
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Team Meandeck Team Serious LordHomerCat is just mean, and isnt really justifying his statements very well, is he?
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bluemage55
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« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2009, 08:47:56 pm » |
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What does that say about a 3UU spell? "Fail" |
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oneofchaos
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« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2009, 12:24:26 am » |
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A lot of combo decks are sideboarding goyfs/dark confidants/negators, 5 mana for any of those seems like a really poor pull!
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Somebody tell Chapin how counterbalance works?
"Of all the major Vintage archetypes that exist and have existed for a significant period of time, Oath of Druids is basically the only won that has never won Vintage Championships and never will (the other being Dredge, which will never win either)." - Some guy who does not know vintage....
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