[Deck Discussion ] Esperzoa (Fish Build / Not Workshop)

[Nehptis]

As you may know, this card has been spoiled:

2U
Esperzoa   
Artifact Creature - Jellyfish 
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, return an artifact you control to its owner's hand.
4/3

There has been some lite discussion about what type of deck could be built around it in this thread:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36600.120

However, I wanted to begin formalizing a discussion around a possible competitive Deck.  At the moment I have more questions than answers. I'm not tied to any particular color inclusion or exclusion.  But, I would think we need to start with an initial scope.  So, I'd like to keep this thread focused on using Esperoza in an Artifact / Fish build.  I don't want this to be about Workshop builds.  IMO, that's for a different deck discussion.

I started my construction of the deck by thinking about the cards / strategies that work in other Fish builds like BUG Fish, UR Fish, and UW Fish.  Please, feel free to explore other discussions about those decks for some good background information.  So, let's break it down:

Esperzoa as a beatstick:
-Right off the bat 4/3 toughness with a decent effect for 2U is pretty good.
-4 beats + evasion is a decent clock for Fish decks.  Especially, in concert with disruption that is intended to slow down the game.

Esperzoa's "Return" Effect:
-I'm thinking of using artifacts that either have a disruption / game delaying effect or ones that have powerful CIP abilities
-Disruptive artifacts that come to mind are Tangle Wire, 3Sphere, CoTV, Crucible of Worlds.  Thorn and Sphere are fringe.
-CIP artifacts are Elsewhere Flask and Tsabo's Web
-Moxes (on-color only or all?)

Control:
-I think we can justify 4 x FOW in the deck.  However, I'm not certain about other counterspells like Negate.
-Stifle would be nice, if there is room.
-If we utilize Black then Duress / Seize.

Creatures:
-Bob for a BUG like draw engine?
-Cursecatcher for a 1 drop + Control
-Tarm if we want to go BUG
-E Canonist if we use White.

Draw:
-In addition to the usual Brainstorm and Recall, Ponder is always a consideration.
-TFK is a huge standout for this deck.
-Thoughcast needs to be considered, as well.

Land:
-Nothing special here and very dependent on our color choices.
-I think I would include Tolarian.
-Along with the artifact based disruption I think some Wastes/Strips work nicely.
-Should we use Artifact lands?

I think there is a lot of space for innovation with this card.  I'll get us started with a very rough decklist.  Again these do NOT have to be the colors we finalize on.  But, NO Workshop suggestions in this thread please.

I GFed this thru MWS a few times.  It's not too bad.  You quickly start to see the lines of play that develop with bouncing and resetting your Tangle Wires and COTVs.  Also, the bouncing and stacking decisions give us lines of play choices, too.  Bouncing our Null Rod allows us to use our Moxes and then replay the Null Rod, which is nice.  Lastly, a 4/3 flyer is pretty decent to swing with.

Updated List on Jan 27

Land - 15
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tol Academy

Control / Bounce - 9
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Wipeaway

Draw/Search - 9
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
2 TFK
1 Thoughcast
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Artifacts - 16
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby --> 1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Pearl
3 Null Rod
3 Tangle Wire
3 COTV
1 Trinisphere

Creatures - 12
4 Esperzoa   
4 Dark Confidant
4 Cursecatcher

[Lurker101]

I know the mana cost is high but what about using artifact lands (to boost tolarian) and Sundering Titan?

[vassago]

i forsee an 8 sea drae deck being playable. i have been toying with this thought lately, and i think it may be at least tier 2 if not better.  As for the return effect, I cnat think of too many artifacts with nifty come into play/leave  play abilities that would make it all to o relevant. Of course titan is good, but we are looking at something quick inb this idea we are entertaining. One thing is for sure, taking your mana crypt of the table is pretty decent, or untapping mana vault for 1 instead of 4 is also not tooo shabby.  other than that your only options for neat tricks are pithing needle and chalice of the void. I could be over looking something.  Off the top of my head i woul dhave to say the following would be auto-includes for: thirst for knowledge, wasteland, stripmine, esperzoa, sea drake, b2basics, FOF, FOW, misdirection, mana drain, mana leak. i think the rest of this idea would be dependent on the rest of the cards you chose to play.  I could be wrong, but what do you think of this?

[Mith]

Why go U/B? White can bring quite a bit to the deck, and has a rather-nice artifact creature: Canonist.

Add in some Master of Etherium, Nullrods, and CoTV, and you have quite a set up.

Throw in some artifact acceleration, counter magic, perhaps StPs, and your good to go.

[Purple Hat]

if you go heavy enough on artifact creatures you could play thorn and cannonist as disruption, backed by counters and artifact creatures you can do quite a bit of disruption, and virtually none of it will effect your deck.

[Nehptis]

I'm not tied to any particular color inclusion or exclusion.  But, I would think we need to start with an initial scope.  So, I'd like to keep this thread focused on using Esperoza in an Artifact / Fish build.  I don't want this to be about Workshop builds.  IMO, that's for a different deck discussion.

If you think White can work for us then please continue along those lines of discussion.  I love Canonist and Meddling Mage.  However, Black brings 3 important elements.  1) Bob - a draw engine and a Fish quality creature.  2) Tutors.  3) Disruption (Duress/Seize).

I need a compelling reason to drop those in favor of White.  STP is very situational and not compelling enough to use White.  Instead it's more the reverse, like...."yes, I figured out a way to use White and oh by the way I also get to use STPs".  If you are suggesting ADDING White then please offer up some sort of starting deck build that we can work from.

[Miaou]

Fish decks in general are scared of Darksteel Colossus in my experience. White gives you the best way to deal with it permanently via STP. If you don't play white which is fine, I do think you need some sort of removal to deal with a resolved DSC.
Black has Diabolic Edict that can do the job, but it fails should opponent have a stray creature.

Other than that I really do think that White would fit nicely, but I agree, it seems to be lacking any draw
Enlightened Tutor could grab you creatures or disruption, but it stops pretty much there.

my 2 cents!

[geckoskin]

Fish decks in general are scared of Darksteel Colossus in my experience. White gives you the best way to deal with it permanently via STP. If you don't play white which is fine, I do think you need some sort of removal to deal with a resolved DSC.
Black has Diabolic Edict that can do the job, but it fails should opponent have a stray creature.

Other than that I really do think that White would fit nicely, but I agree, it seems to be lacking any draw
Enlightened Tutor could grab you creatures or disruption, but it stops pretty much there.

my 2 cents!

chain of vapor and hurkyl's recall are both fine cards that deal with DSC, as well as being useful in general. or you could try echoing truth, which would be nice vs zombie tokens if you expect to see ichorid.

[Nehptis]

This deck is running pretty smoothly in my MWS tests.  For those who are familiar with BUG fish, this plays a little slower (Tarms vs. Esperzoa).  But, it has much better draw by using both Bobs and TFK/Thoughcast.  Also, it's disruption is very strong in terms of Tanglewires, Rods, etc.

Like most Fish decks it really comes down to tempo.  If this deck gets a Turn 1 Cursecatcher or Duress, Turn 2 Bob or accelerate into a Turn 2, 3 CC Artifact / Esperzoa then it's in very good shape to start really slowing down the game and moving on to beating with a 4/3 flyer.

What I really like about Esperzoa vs. Tarm is that it is a big beater, with evasion, that also has a nice ability that can be leveraged.  Tarm does not evade and has no ability beyon aggro beats.  And most of the time Tarm is maxed out at 4 or 5 (land, instant, sorcery, artifact, creature) which is no greater or 1 greater than Esperzoa. 

Has anyone tested my build or tried something with White?

[Mith]

I've been messing around with a build based on Esperzoa, Master of Etherium, and Canonist.

Of far, Master of E is a serious clock with the large volume of artifacts.

I'm running rods, chalice, and thorn main, as well as FoW, thoughtcasts, and StP

Do I like it better than BUG fish...well, I do miss Bob and duress effects. Tarmo is juicy but in an artifact-heavy build the Master is even better. I think that canonist is just too amazing to not play.

The big negative is having your whole board wiped by a hurkyls...ugh.

[Pomaxx]

i am about to throw such a pile togehter as well and maybe it is wort testing, whether or not 2-3 Erayos and some Reapeal/Remands might fit in as well.

bouncing a Mox or Chalice during upkeep helps generating spells a turn (as do Remand and Repeal, which might be used on your own cards if needed or to bounce/counter opponents threads) to flip the Erayo fast and even without many cards in hand.

in additon Repeal and Remand are good with Ethersworn Canonist too.

a flipped Erayo togehter with an Ethersworn Canonist locks down the opponent big time.

just a few thoughts.

[Nehptis]

That's an interesting approach. Please let us know how it works out.  I'm interested to know for the folks who are trying UW or UWB what are you using for draw?  Is it Recall, Brainstorm and TFK?  Or perhaps Thoughcast.  Bob for those in Black?

For now, I'm going to stick with the UB build that I posted in the #1 post.  I'll keep updating it.  The deck is very tight as it is.  So, I expect with a Canonist build with or without Erayo, I probably wouldn't run Tangle Wires or 3Sphere.

[bisamratte]

I've built a shoplike version of the deck. I also tried to develop a fishlike built, but I think its not strong enough. In a Fish deck you don't need big creatures like Esperzoa but you need creatures that disrupt your opponent.

My version looks like this:

4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand

4 Master of Etherium
4 Esperzoa
4 Ethersworn Canonist

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Null Rod
4 Tangle Wire
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker

There are some nice synergies beween Esperzoa, Chalice and Tangle Wire. Thorns slow the opponent down, and Wires keep this state. With Zoa online Wire doesn't get weaker. Big creatures prevent the opponent from recovering. There are no cards in Fish that are of equal rate. (Sry for being o.t. btw )

[Eastman]

i forsee an 8 sea drae deck being playable. i have been toying with this thought lately, and i think it may be at least tier 2 if not better.  As for the return effect, I cnat think of too many artifacts with nifty come into play/leave  play abilities that would make it all to o relevant. Of course titan is good, but we are looking at something quick inb this idea we are entertaining. One thing is for sure, taking your mana crypt of the table is pretty decent, or untapping mana vault for 1 instead of 4 is also not tooo shabby.  other than that your only options for neat tricks are pithing needle and chalice of the void. I could be over looking something.  Off the top of my head i woul dhave to say the following would be auto-includes for: thirst for knowledge, wasteland, stripmine, esperzoa, sea drake, b2basics, FOF, FOW, misdirection, mana drain, mana leak. i think the rest of this idea would be dependent on the rest of the cards you chose to play.  I could be wrong, but what do you think of this?

Vassago is right.  You should definitely run Mana Vault.  It's already on the line and Esper makes it awesome. He is also right that Pithing Needle would be great under Zoa.  It's already one of the best artifacts around for fish strategies imo. 

[Nehptis]

@bisamratte:  Please re-read the subject of this thread.  I don't want this to be about Workshop Builds.  I urge you to start a different thread for that discussion.

@ Eastman:  I'm thinking -1 Ruby or Pearl or Emerald and +1 Vault.  Vault is nice to power out those 3CC spells / creatures in the deck.  Regarding Needle, is it redundant to Null Rod (except for stopping Wastes / Fetches)?  I do like Needle alot.  I'm just concerned about space.  I will try 2 x Needles somewhere.

I'd love to hear some feedback about this build if anyone did any testing.

[geckoskin]

@ Eastman:  I'm thinking -1 Ruby or Pearl or Emerald and +1 Vault.  Vault is nice to power out those 3CC spells / creatures in the deck.  Regarding Needle, is it redundant to Null Rod (except for stopping Wastes / Fetches)?  I do like Needle alot.  I'm just concerned about space.  I will try 2 x Needles somewhere.

needle stops bazaar, welder, fetchlands, wasteland/stripmine, moxmonkey, LOA, hell it can even stop a fanatic from cacking bob.

i won't say it's better than null rod, but it definitely deals with a lot of important things that null rod can't.

[tito del monte]

On a slightly different tack, one thing that Esperzoa got me thinking about was this thread, remember it?
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36422.0

Basically, if you are able to easily bounce and recast cheap artifacts, could Arcane Denial (on your own spells) be a good draw engine, and good disruption (when countering opponents' spells), in one card? It also works well with Chalices.

There's every chance I may be barking up the wrong tree, but I thought it might be worth pondering. I tried to come up with a list featuring FOW, drain, Denial and Thirst but couldn't cram it all in - maybe one of you out there who's a better builder fancies a stab at it..

[Nehptis]

It's an interesting idea.  But, the problem is the same that exists with the deck discussed in your link.  That is Arcane Denial is a sub-optimal card by itself.  Yes it COULD be good when Esperoza and cheap artifacts are out.  But, when they are not AD is a sub-optimal card.

The Draw engine of the list that I posted is two fold.  Bob and/or TFK+Thoughcast.  So, I'm not too concerned about draw.  My build's plan is to either drop an early Esperzoa while bouncing cheap artifacts or cast disruptive Arts like 3Sphere and Tangle Wire to slow down the game until I can get a Bob and a Esperoza out.

The big question for my deck: is it as good as, or better than BUG or BGW Fish.  IMO, those decks have set the bar for mana denial Fish strategies.

[nineisnoone]

The big question for my deck: is it as good as, or better than BUG or BGW Fish.  IMO, those decks have set the bar for mana denial Fish strategies.

Probably not if that is your question.  The advantages of running Esperzoa are just not big as the drawbacks of running it.  The only benefit to running it would be bouncing a Tangle Wire, everything else would be largely irrelevant I feel.  And Tangle Wire is pretty bad without Esperzoa and costs a bit much.  At best, the bonce effect would overall be neutral. 

And even then realistically speaking it's just a 4 power for 3.  You could (and I do in my UWG) just go ahead and run Negator.

[vassago]

I have been eye balling this thread since it started and with all the discussion I see here, I would have to say that i think that this deck would perform best as a mono blue kind of build. I honestly do not think that this creature could fit into a fish-esk build, mainly due to the fact it isnt all that synergetic with the tempo based strategies that fish builds normally play on.  It is true, however, that he does combo in a very cute fashion with some very nifty artifacts, but that doesnt mean that it will be good or even played for that matter.  Unfortunately, it is very difficult for me to nay say since i havent actually shuffled it up and tried it.  The more I think about this kind of strategy, I think it would have to be a counter heavy deck, or more control style. Kind of like some decks were like eons ago where you dropped Juzam, or Erhnam, and protected it from there. That is what this feels synonymous too in my thinking. Too be quite honest, I feel as if that wouldnt be that good. You never know untill you try, right?

 

The big question for my deck: is it as good as, or better than BUG or BGW Fish.  IMO, those decks have set the bar for mana denial Fish strategies.

It most definitely would be worse than either of these two, especially the direction you keep hinting at that you want the deck to go to. With the way that you are speaking, you should run just run BUG fish or maybe even Sullivan Solution, as these two lists may be relevant to your interests. 

[tito del monte]

@Nephtis: yup you're right, after continued fiddling with arcane denial, it does just feel a bit flimsy.

So I find Vassago's comments very interesting, as I've ended coming up with a list much as described - in fact it's a bit slaver like. This is the first list I've ever stuck up, so any constructive criticism welcome. It's far from perfect but just thought it would be a stab in a slightly different direction.  Stuck in the UK, I've only bee goldfishing this, but shock horror, there IS a UK proxy vintage tournament at the end of the month so I might give this a whirl.

To be honest, barring Elves, it's the first deck I've sleeved up in a while and the first thing that struck me is just how painful it is to play without four brainstorms. I keep finding myself slipping towards top deck mode. So more draw is probably needed. Anyway here's a list:

5 mox
1 lotus
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt
1 vault
1 petal

1 volcanic
1 academy ruins
3 seas
1 academy
5 fetch
3 island

4 Force of will
4 Thirst
4 Mana drain

1 Ancestral
1 Demonic tutor
1 Mystical tutor
1 Vampyric tutor
1 brainstorm
1 time walk
1 yawgmoth's will
1 deep analysis
1 Empty the warrens
1 Tinker
1 merchant scroll
1 Chain of vapor

3 Chalice
3 Null rod
1 Trinisphere

4 Esperzoa
1 Darksteel Colossus

Sideboard to include:
Pithing needles, rack and ruin, maybe red blasts...

That's where I am at with the moment. I tried it with a couple of welders of a sunerdering titan instead of colossus at first but it didn't seem so good. The red splash might just be a hang up from that, but I do like having the option of Empty, either with Will, bounced stuff from Esperzoa, or Chain of Vapor.

One card I would really like to squeeze in is Ponder, but not quite sure what to cut.

I did also wonder whether I should cut Empty plus one other card, for Gifts and Recoup. Any thoughts on that one?

Finally, I wish Academy Ruins made blue mana! This could possibly be a Strip Mine or Cephalid Coliseum as I am in need of more draw.


There you have it. Please be gentle

[Nehptis]

This is all good feedback.  I'm glad to see that there is some interest in this card.  Testing various builds will be the best indicator of how effective the JellyFish can be. I'm hesitant to run Esp in a non-Fish shell for a few reasons:

1) Using it as Sea Drake 5-8 is interesting.  But, these days even a clock like that is too slow without Fish like Disruption.  This is why I stayed away from Mono U builds with Esp.  IMO Fish like Disruption is different than Control.  The former usually has a slower clock and thus more disruption.  Where the latter Controls the game until it can resolve a game altering Spell like TVault, TS Tyrant, etc.

2) Using Esp as Tito suggests is really not too far off from a Fish shell.  I'm ignoring his EtW / Ywill, because I don't think they belong.  But, his build reminds me of what "tls" is trying to accomplish with his UG Drain Fish deck in this thread: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37312.0.  That is, Null Rods + Drains with a Fishy like build.  Perhaps this is more the direction that we should be taking with Esp.

I truly believe though that if Esp's ability is not used as a disruptive piece along with some Artifacts then Esp is just a 4/3 Flyer for 2U that must have a draw back to make it fair.  E.g., it is a variation of a Sea Drake.  I'm hoping that we can innovate something with its bounce ability.  Since, an alt Sea Drake is not very interesting to me.  I'd rather just swing with Tarms and such.

[tito del monte]

Thanks for the response Nehptis - and you're right that thread makes interesting reading. Having also been reading the Control Slaver thread in the Open Forum, I feel that your synthesis is correct in so much as there is a general move out there to try and make a 2 or 3 colour drain based control deck playable (see Forests Failed You's Strategic Keeper list in that slaver thread: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36516.30) and that being able to incorporate Null Rod and/or Chalice as early plays seems crucial to that. I know that's not the intention of your original tempo orientated decklist, so apologies if this is a diversion.

Also you're right that Esperzoa's bounce ability has to be maiximised - otherwise like both TLS and Forests Failed You's lists, green for Goyfs is the better choice. I guess that's why I'm giving Empty a try for now - but maybe there's a better choice out there.

cheers, Titus

[Blue Lotus]

I would start with:

-1 vamp
-1 thoughtcast
+2 Thirst

I would also try to get up to 4x Null Rod 4x Chalice.  Esperzoa is great with chalice at zero - bounce it, play mox, replay it.  Similar Effect with an early Null Rod.

Also, bouncing a Null Rod will open your opponent to cast instants, making misdirection a seemingly good choice over discard.   

Again, thirst is too good to not run a full four.

[Darkenslight]

No Master of Etherium and Sculptor for an Affinity-like start?

[VorpalBunnyDuby]

Sculptor might be good in a fish style build running main deck thinks like pithing needles, sensei's top to smooth your draw and relic of progenitus to hose y.wills and ichorid. The bad thing being that you'd probably miss playing null rod, which is really good right now.

[Sean Ryan]

Moving toward a control shell is a mistake IMO.  There are just better more established things to do with Drains and Forces then follow up with aggro.  No, aggro-control is the best home for Esperoza.  On the subject of secondary colors - White gives you Canonist and Swords to Plowshares over Duress and Bob in black.  By choosing white you add to your artifact count and slow the game way down with canonist while having an out against Tinker Colossus.  By focuing on 2 colors you also can afford to run Ancient Tomb which makes you much more explosive.  As much as I love Bob and Duress I think these out weigh their benefits.  This being said I haven't been able to post good enough numbers against Tezz to be competetive.  I'lll post the list for feedback and inspiration.

4 Chalice
3 Rod
4 Thorn
3 StP
4 Force
2 Thoughtcast
2 Recall/Walk

4 Canonist
4 Esperoza
4 Master E
2 Grunt

6 Lotus/Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Strip/Waste
4 Tundra
4 Strand
2 Island/Plains

The deck has some great opening draws that resemble Fish but with more explosiveness.  Esperoza lets you run the full compliment of both Moxes and Chalice Null Rod.  Pithing Needle is a card I have considered main decking as a cheap answer to Timevault and other annoying abilities.  Artifact bounce is definitely a major weakness, as is drawing to many Masters and Esperozas without enough disruption.

Any thoughts?   

[Mantis]

Sanctum Gargoyle might be an option, though probably way too slow unless you start playing with Workshops. Would be nice to have that with Esperzoa though.

You could also splash red for Goblin Welder, it also conviently gives you an out to Tinker.

Kaleidoscope also comboes somewhat with Esperzoa. Also a tiny combo with Welder and it enables you to play like 3 colors.

Though everything I suggested is probably horrible, but I just like those colored artifacts so much .

BTW: Sean Ryan it's Esperzoa not Esperoza.

[Mith]

I'll bump this thread with what I'm testing out. So far, I'm not quite happy with the mana base...

Creatures:
4 Esperzoa
4 Master of E
4 Canonist

Spells:
4 FoW
4 Thoughtcase
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Walk
1 Recall
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Echoing Truth
3 StP

Artifacts:
4 CotV
4 Null Rod
1 Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Crypt
1 Sol Ring

Land:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip

Again, the creatures and artifact mix have been excellent, and thoughtcast is most-often a 1cc to draw two. The impromptu Hurkyl's or Rebuild is VERY annoying if it gets past your minimal counter-magic.

Thoughts on the build? I like the balance of aggression and control, and it runs much faster than BUG fish.

[VorpalBunnyDuby]

@ mith: If rebuild is giving you troubles, i would try adding some number of spell snares in the deck. On the plus side, it does come in handy when fighting against oath and drains too:-)