[Deck Discussion ] Esperzoa (Fish Build / Not Workshop)

[Dr.KnowMaD]

@ mith: If rebuild is giving you troubles, i would try adding some number of spell snares in the deck. On the plus side, it does come in handy when fighting against oath and drains too:-)

I don't get how spell snare is going to help with Rebuild.  I must be missing something right?


Dr.KnowMaD

[tito del monte]

@mith: The deck looks a blast - but with a full suite of wastes and strip mine, have you ever found yourself wanting crucible for the lock?

[Qube]

Spellsnare only counter hurkyl's and not rebuild.

Why you don't cut Sol Ring, Crypt and maybe also 1-2 offcolormoxes and play the mana base with either mishra's workshop or ancient tomb.
because with the null rod, it's not so funny.
I also would add crucibles.

[Nehptis]

@Mith:

I like that you are trying to make an effective build with white.  But, what I don't like is that you really aren't making use of Esperzoa's "drawback".  Meaning, in your build its function is just as an Aggro beater with a drawback that you can accomodate with your artifacts. For me Tarm is this best cheap beater Fish can play.  So, I think if Esperzoa is ever going to be used in an effective deck a strategy must be found to exploite its bounce "drawback".

My inital build attempts to do this by including Tanglewire.

[Mith]

With a full set of moxen, I can crank out a Master of E or Esperoza quickly, not to mention first-turn Canonists.

I agree that there are two easily-apparent ways to use Zoa...one is in an aggro build (which I'm leaning towards) and the other is in a more lock-based deck employing tangle wires and Workshops.

Crucible would be great, but again...the focus of the build I'm using is aggro with a mix of disruption. To that extent, FoW + CotV + Null Rod + Canonist have been more than enough to slow down combo and Tez. With the number of artifacts in this deck, Master of E is easily bigger than Goyf...and his ability to pump other creatures is utilized as well. I want to stick to proactive disruption, and I don't see Crucible with its 3cc and relying on lands as being that.

Aside from mass artifact bounce, I've been quite happy with this deck. It works a very fast clock, and the disruption is all playable in the first turn.

Someone who's working on a mono-u lock-based build should post that...

[VorpalBunnyDuby]

@ Dr.KnowMaD: my bad, i meant to say H.Recall.

[Blue Lotus]

I'm running nearly the same list except with 4x Aven Mindcensor instead of Master of Etherium. 
The flying is great, flash is excellent when paired with bouncing a Mox or a Mana Crypt.  Plus is is disruption & protection (can't search for threats/answers), and isn't affected by mass artifact bounce. 

I was running Thirst but will switch to Thoughtcast as I was getting frustrated on being stuck on 1-2 lands w/ Null Rod and Chalice

I also have Trinisphere instead of Sol Ring, something you might want to try. 

Finally, I cut out Wasteland entirely as I too was getting frustrated by having low land. 

[Mith]

Mindcensor is a nice choice...but I've been ever so pleased with the raw speed of Master of E. His ability to pump the whole army + the fact that I have so many artifacts on the board in the first few turns is quite nice.

Thoughtcast is perfect...I easily cast in by turn three or so for just one blue mana.

Trinisphere without a set of Thorns seems to much a random-luck draw...I'd rather have the accelertion of Sol Ring

Wasteland and Strip are almost out the door...two more fetches, two islands, and one plain are probably taking their place.

I'm still feeling VERY vulnerable to mass-bounce....but the deck is incredibly fast for being a fish-variant with this much disruption. I'd be pretty upset by an Energy Flux as well.  I'm not sure what the board options are, but I'll have to look. Eon Hub would block Flux...but what stops Hurkyl's?

[Blue Lotus]

Trinisphere without a set of Thorns seems to much a random-luck draw...I'd rather have the accelertion of Sol Ring

Trinisphere works more like a Canonist/ Chalice at Zero Hybrid, and though it doesn't do any of those things completely, it still is a powerful effect.  As for the randomness, I think it is no different than tinker. 

Master E kind of forces you to overextend, opening up to mass bounce/Energy Flux.  But the clock is undeniable, so take the good with the bad.  Maybe Mana Leak is the best all around answer.

[Mith]

I agree that Trinisphere's effect is impressive...and about as random as Tinker...but I don't play Tinker for that reason specifically. I think if I were going down a less aggro-oriented route, I'd run the lock pieces. For this version (which is quite fast in issuing a beating), I'm finding that proactive lock pieces that are easy to cast like Chalice and Null Rod are perfect fits.

I wish I could find room for Leaks...but what to take out? Space is tight as-is. I'm going to keep playtesting, but so far I've been impressed with the results.

[desolutionist]

I'd try something like....

5 Island
3 Wasteland
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

4 Esperzoa
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Tezzeret, the Seeker

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Negate
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tinker

[Mith]

After further testing...the U/W version is incredibly explosive with the right hand...but otherwise unimpressive overall. Frankly, I'd rather play Mono-R Shop Aggro.

Back to the drawing board...and this time, Mono U. Here's what I'm trying out:

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus

4 FoW
4 Thoughtcast
3 Counterbalance
3 Back to Basics
1 Brainstorm
1 Walk
1 Recall

4 Esperzoa
4 Master of Etherium
3 Trinket Mage

5 Mox
1 Lotus
1 Sol
8 Fetch
9 Island

I've forgotten how good Back to Basics is! I'm not 100% sold on the Counterbalance engine, but Trinket Mage adds some nice utility. No Null Rod though...which is too bad considering how good the card is in this meta. Thoughtcast is still generally a 1-2cc spell to draw two cards.

Thoughts?

[Darkenslight]

Why not go UW, for Court Homunculus, Pikula and Chant/Abeyance, along with Relic of Progenitus and a couple of other goodies?

[jaeppel]

 this esperzoa is an intriguing new card.  epecially coupled with the two new masters, transmuter and etherium.  between these three workshop castable, fow pitchable beasts, there has to be an entirely new world of broken blue.  one that we havent stumbled upon yet.  blue is getting its own goyfs, and these guys all have really twisted blueish things working for them, bouncing, cheating artifacts into play, and of course having power and toughness equal to the tolarian academy count.  whats not to like?

Serendib efreet is now out of date, long live serendib efreet.  Perhaps it has been out of date for a long time, but now blue has received a new beatbox possessing the same cc and reversed p/t of 4/3 with a 'drawback' that reeks of broken in the format.  And its an artifact.  Esperzoa, i need four of you yesterday.  Serendib, see you in the dollar rare binder. (i hope)

Tarmogoyf really sucks.  Just because it is the future of the creature power curve, but so advanced in tech that everyone wants green duals for the raw beatdown factor.  Really sick of seeing otherwise wonderful blue decks desecrated for tropical islands, just for a do-nothing that turns sideways.  Now blue gets a big bad growing beat box of its own.  Not speaking of the esperzoa, but of its brother in arms, master of etherium.  This guy eats goyfs, costs just one more, is an artifact-that-pitches-to-FoW, makes zoa bigger, and has p/t=tolarianacademy.  Whats not to like?  Long live tropical island.

for my part i have been toying with a mono-u shell using zoa and master-e as the beatboxes.  i wouldnt really call it fish, except i want a set of chalices and rods in here.  zoa allows these brutal hosers to play out one sided in their effects, making the use of artifact acceleration alongside its own hosers.  chalice is great as it gives 4 more zero cost artifacts to hold down the zoas upkeep cost.  also, the bulk of the deck hits at the 3 mana point, so multiple chalices can really lock down the game.

The natural draw engine here for me is tfk, with so many redundant artifacts there is never a problem with finding the pitch.  with zoa on the table, there should always be an artifact in hand.  toss the bounced sapphire now useless under the rod it accelerated, and tfk just said 'draw three.'  thoughtcast is another possibility, but i hate the fact that its so reliant on the board position.  drawing 2 for u at sorcery speed while i have 4 artifacts in play seems kind of win more.  if i have four artifacts out, im already winning.  tfk helps when the chips are down and digs deeper for that fow at instant speed.  its a lose-less card, and as any blackjack player will tell you, the key is losing less...

so anyways, here is my attempt at working out mono-u zoa, explanations to follow:

lands (17)
12   Island
1   Academy
3   stripwaste

instants (17)
4   FoW
4   Drain
4   TfK
1   Ancestral
1   Brainstorm
1   Fact
1   hurkyl
1   psiblast

sorceries (3)
1   Walk
1   Tink
1   Merch

critters (9)
4   Zoa
4   Master of Etherium
1   Titan or another robot? (titan, platz, inky, dsc, trike, skelivus, etc)

artifacts (15)
4   Rod
4   Chalice
1      smokestack
6   lot/saph/sol/crypt/vault/petal

sideboard (15)
4   Back to Basics
7   Ichorid hate (echoing truth+needle?)
2   alternate robots
1   Trinisphere
1   Leyline of the void

I really want to see some tanglewires.  Paying the zoa upkeep with wire means they tap 4, you tap 0, every turn.  (at least i think: rules question, if the tangle wire isnt there when the trigger resolves the ability counts 0 counters?  Or are the counters counted when the trigger hits the stack?)  gemerating a lock that should last long enough for the artifact airforce to do its job.  problem is, without workshops (which cannot coexist with drains), its you tap four, i tap three to recast, so its not that good.  in other builds... perhaps better ones with shop and transmuter, wire is looking pretty sick.

mana drain here is debatable, as another person said here, there are other, much more broken things to do with drain than deliver beats.  to some extent i agree with this.  once listing 4 drain in a deck, the first question must be "why is this any better than tezz/slaver/control.dec?"  the first answer is null rod.  four two cc artifacts that negate so many of the game plans used by other drain decks.  its like having cake and eating it too, getting to use drain mana to drop a drain-deck-hoser like rod, all the while turning a jellyfish sideways at a repectable clock speed.

running rod also makes trinket mage less attractive, as most of his juicy targets are dead with the rod.  in the tutoring zone there are scroll and tink only.  tinker is great here since it only takes up two slots for tinker/robot, whereas putting a trinkmage in the deck takes up at least 6 slots or so.  alternatively, it is perfectly acceptable to use tinker as a nullrod tutor...  the single stax is also there as a seconary target should the titan be somewhere not in the library.  this slot could be a memory jar, but i wanted something that can be devastating on a more permanent basis and function under nullrod.

merchant scroll really feels like an auto-include here.  17 blue instants makes it mostly a demonic tutor.  the singleton fact, hurkyl, and psiblast are all nice scroll targets for those occasions when they could just win the game.  and of course scroll/recal beats tfk no. 5.  no. 6 being fact, of course.

as for the sideboard, back to basics head the list.  just too strong of a hoser not to have there, but also in these days of 5 basic lands and stacks of fetches in decks, just not consistently good enough to be in the main.  trinisphere seems to belong there as well to come in in combo matchups, probably in place of the stax.  figure eight cards that beat ichorid, in some configuration.  that leaves two slots to stick in alternate robots for the tinker slot.  say platz and inkwell for the sake of argument.

The first thing i miss with mono-u is welder.  Welder would be pretty broken in here.  Work in some more big robots and bazaar to play more cerebral assasin style.  That deck also plays transmuter and like 5 x 8-cc artifacts.  and then maybe not even zoa, so it seems ive gotten off-topic here.  theres another thread for that deck.

[tito del monte]

@ Jaeppel: Nice list! Glad to people are still interested in trying things out with the jellyfish. Just got a set of masters so will sleeve this up and give it a whirl

[Random Noob]

Yesterday I played in a small Tornament at our Shop. It wasn't to serious, but i wated to try the List i came with. It wasn't too bad playing against Tezz and Doomsday, but sometimes i would like to be more difficult for my Opponent, so perhaps it maybe with stack or Null Rod next time. I thought running Esperzoa with Chalice and Tangle Wire is a choice that has to be tested, and i had some succes with it. Also i want to race my Opponent with Ethersworn Canonist and Master of Etherium. So here is my try.

// Lands
    1 Tolarian Academy
    1 Strip Mine
    3 Wasteland
    4 Mishra's Workshop
    4 City of Brass
    1 Seat of the Synod
    1 Gemstone Mine
    2 Glimmervoid

// Creatures
    3 Goblin Welder
    4 Ethersworn Canonist
    3 Master of Etherium
    4 Esperzoa
    1 Gorilla Shaman (2)
    1 Sundering Titan

// Spells
    1 Tinker
    1 Time Walk
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Coalition Relic
    1 Mana Crypt
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Tangle Wire
    4 Thorn of Amethyst
    1 Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Viashino Heretic
SB: 1 Duplicant
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Platinum Angel
SB: 4 Choke
SB: 1 Gaea's Blessing


My List is fun to play but i don't know where i could tune it to be more competive. But i'm seroius that Esperzoa will find its place anywhere, i'll keep an eye on it.

[Qube]

I try another build out, (yes I know, without workshop should it be, but...)

It is a beatdown deck.

creature [16]
4 Esperzoa
4 Master of Etherium
4 Sea Drake
4 Serendib Efreet

instant [5]
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will

sorcery [5]
4 Thoughtcast
1 Time Walk

artifact [15]
1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Chrome Mox
2 Mask of Memory
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Sword of Fire and Ice

land [19]
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
5 Island
2 Mishra's Workshop
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Tolarian Academy
60 cards


Peace
-Qube

[mort-]

We had a tournament yesterday, not knowing what I should play I tested this list (I tried to fit Esperzoa in a deck because I just loved the card the moment it was released).

4x Master of Etherium
4x Esperzoa
3x Juggernaut
1x Inkwell Leviathan

3x Null Rod
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Tangle Wire
1x Sol Ring
1x Lotus Petal

3x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Mana Leak
3x Daze
1x Tinker

4x Ancient Tomb
3x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolarian Academy
11x Island

Sideboard

4x Propaganda
3x Echoing Truth
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Hurkyl's Recall


It was doing well against Combo, but pretty worthless against Staxx, which seems to be the worst possible matchup for this deck. I didn't play against Ichorid or other Aggrodecks, so I can't tell how good the Propaganda in the Sideboard is.
The deck itself did run pretty stable, I sometimes had to mulligan because I didn't find blue mana sources, but I'll test Solemn in the Juggernaut slot for that problem.
Funny thing is that I did not play the Zoa one time in all five rounds, most of the time Tangle Wire alone did stall a bit of time until MoE or Levi did the job.
I do like the control-part of the deck, but I also think that I can't bring enough pressure on the table / not control my boardposition enough.
All around I think that it is a fun deck to play, I'll try looking for a way to finetune it more, this is atm the first version

[jaeppel]

I try another build out, (yes I know, without workshop should it be, but...)

It is a beatdown deck.

creature [16]
4 Esperzoa
4 Master of Etherium
4 Sea Drake
4 Serendib Efreet

instant [5]
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will

sorcery [5]
4 Thoughtcast
1 Time Walk

artifact [15]
1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Chrome Mox
2 Mask of Memory
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Sword of Fire and Ice

land [19]
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
5 Island
2 Mishra's Workshop
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Tolarian Academy
60 cards


Peace
-Qube

if you want to run 4 thoughtcast, you cannot also run 8 non-artifact beaters.  serendib does nothing for you except make it look like there are green cards in your deck.  also, 6 equipments for 16 creatures is far too many.  better to run null rods, and cut the chrome moxes (which cannot be imprinted by blue artifacts, btw).  chrome mox is a usually a bad card, unless you play belcher.

[Urtho]

I really want to see some tanglewires.  Paying the zoa upkeep with wire means they tap 4, you tap 0, every turn.  (at least i think: rules question, if the tangle wire isnt there when the trigger resolves the ability counts 0 counters?  Or are the counters counted when the trigger hits the stack?)  gemerating a lock that should last long enough for the artifact airforce to do its job.  problem is, without workshops (which cannot coexist with drains), its you tap four, i tap three to recast, so its not that good.  in other builds... perhaps better ones with shop and transmuter, wire is looking pretty sick.

Q: Sheldon,

When a Rishadan Port targets a land for tapping, you can tap the land for mana in response. Can you do the same for tangle wire?

-Jake

A: Jake

No, since Tangle Wire doesn’t target. You can tap lands for mana in response to the Tangle Wire ability going on the stack, but when the ability resolves, you still have to choose X untapped creatures, lands, or artifacts. If you’re already all tapped out, there’s no real effect. Remember that destroying the Tangle Wire after the ability has gone on the stack doesn’t prevent you from having to tap stuff. The Tangle Wire ability will still resolve, and you must tap a number of things equal to the number of counters TW had on it just before it left play.

[jaeppel]

merde, so tanglewire/zoa is pretty much completly unborken.  now i am sad.

[the boogie man]

@ jaeppel: It is still worthwhile i'd think. It allows you to keep tanglewire up, which taps itself anyway. Its more like they tap 4 you tap 2. still a good trade to me. And with null rod, that is a lot better than parity.

@qube: I think that null rod would be really good in this deck, probably directly replacing the chrome moxen. You could also run trinket mage, which would have really good synergy with wire. you would just have to run stuff that wasn't affected by rod. Pithing needle and chalice come to mind. especially since chalice @ 1 hurts you very little. Trinket mage would also be good for the side, since you could board out the rods against decks you don't need them in, and bring in stuff like explosives, crypt, relic, or a host of other cards.

and I think that tinker and leviathan should be in the deck. I also agree that you don't need the other 8 beaters, zoa, master, and trinket mage + tinker inkwell should do it. and factory would definately help.