TfK Long (with words)

[desolutionist]

not kidding

4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
4 Dark Ritual
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
2 Misdirection
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mind's Desire
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Frantic Search
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rushing River

The reason this version is better than anything else at the moment is because of Thirst for Knowledge.  It's such a powerful card and I'd even say more so than Brainstorm.  (But of course, Brainstorm is awesome because it costs 1)  With a TfK draw engine, it becomes really easy to play the control role with everyone's favorite 4 Duress 4 Force 2 MisD.  Most games really just come down to me either having overwhelming card advantage and some Forces or F/2TK.

For those of you who play TPS:  How many times are you sitting around waiting to draw into something?  Thirst is supreme hand sculpting and makes DSC a better card.  Look at what it can do to your hands:

Thirst for Knowledge, Duress, Demonic Tutor, Mox Sapphire, Polluted Delta, Time Walk, Mana Crypt

Thirst for Knowledge, Darksteel Colossus, Mana Vault, Mox Jet, Tolarian Academy, Polluted Delta, Fact or Fiction

Tolarian Academy, Dark Ritual, Merchant Scroll, Polluted Delta, Thirst for Knowledge, Ancestral Recall, Force of Will

Gifts Ungiven, Thirst for Knowledge, Mana Vault, Polluted Delta, Mox Emerald, Ancestral Recall, Yawgmoth's Will

Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Mind's Desire, Island, Duress, Thirst for Knowledge, Sol Ring

I think we are heading towards a Thirst for Knowledge dominated T1. It's simply the best draw spell left after the restrictions and is much needed fixing for pretty much every non-Fish deck. (And I wouldn't even rule it out of that archetype either)

It's easily incorperated into TPS because it isn't ritual reliant and pitches to Force. In testing against Drain Tendrils, Thirst has been a very important card at either regaining advantage after a mulligan or breaking parity. I'm confident that this version will normally win any "Y.Will" matchup.

And for Fish, which I suppose is the bad matchup, Rushing River OWNS.  I'm also sideboarding Smother, Massacre, and Wumpus.

[Fester]

Did you consider running Rebuild instead of Rushing River as your 3cc bounce spell?

Does the benefit or running 2x Cephalid Coliseum outweigh the early game liability of running additional non-basics?

And this maybe is a little too nitpicky but does the second misdirection and the extra land really outperform double cabal ritual?

[desolutionist]

Did you consider running Rebuild instead of Rushing River as your 3cc bounce spell?

Well yeah, I started out with Rebuild and Chain of Vapor.  Rushing River is a miracle spell against Null Rods, Teegs, and Censors.  And Hurkyl's is, in my opinion, better than Rebuild.

Does the benefit or running 2x Cephalid Coliseum outweigh the early game liability of running additional non-basics?

Coliseum is b-r-o-k-e-n and more decks should probably be playing it.  I also hate Wastelands, but sideboard basics is the easiest way to beat that...   

And this maybe is a little too nitpicky but does the second misdirection and the extra land really outperform double cabal ritual?

Misdirection wins counter wars and draws cards, I always want it in my hand because Vintage these days is pretty much all about finding Recall.  It's also fun against Thoughtseize. 

Bad times with Cabal Ritual.  I just don't think it's a very consistent card.

[wjgogol]

i like your list, its very similar to mine and you might have convinced me to try out tfk with those opening hand examples.

my only problem is that i really cant get behind a ritual based deck that isnt playing necro. whats the deal with that?

[personalbackfire]

Gush, Thirst for Knowledge, Mana Vault, Polluted Delta, Mox Emerald, Ancestral Recall, Yawgmoth's Will

Did I miss something or is there a gush in ur list?

[Mr. Type 4]

I dont like this particular list very much (Rushing River, seriously?) but I can attest to this being a great direction to go in.  I've played decks that were poorly built but had TFK and Rituals and they brought me a strong amount of success. 

my only problem is that i really cant get behind a ritual based deck that isnt playing necro. whats the deal with that?

My first list i built using this concept was based on the idea that I REALLLY wanted to play Necro in my TFK decks.  I would definitly play Necro for sure. 

[Negator13]

I like the deck. I'm curious why you're not running Necropotence or Memory Jar (especially Necro). To me Necro over probably Frantic Search seems like an obvious inclusion. It seems even better here than in normal TPS because you have Thirst to both keep you going if you get Necro-locked, and to pitch Necro itself if it is too late in the game.

I really like your inclusion of Coliseum. I think you've found a really good innovation here. That card looks so hot, it makes me excited to play Magic.

[Troy_Costisick]

3 Thirst for Knowledge

Instead of 3 of this card, wouldn't a Memory Jar, Necropotence, and Windfall be better?

4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Cephalid Coliseum

This seems like a less stable manabase than I've seen in other TPS lists.  How has your testing gone against decks sporting 5 Waste/Strip effects, Magus of the Moon, and/or Null Rod packages?

[desolutionist]

Thanks for the responses!

Let me just start off by saying I designed this deck with the intentions of beating Fish.  Necropotence doesn't even pass drafting stage because it's bad against Fish.  True, Necro is ridiculously broken but sometimes sacrifices have to be made. 

I like the deck. I'm curious why you're not running Necropotence or Memory Jar (especially Necro). To me Necro over probably Frantic Search seems like an obvious inclusion. It seems even better here than in normal TPS because you have Thirst to both keep you going if you get Necro-locked, and to pitch Necro itself if it is too late in the game.

Well, Frantic Search is a little better than Necro.  Both three mana, one blue, ... Frantic doesn't need Ritual and will directly win the game in the coolest ways.  Necro is only good on turn one, costs a heaping of life, and will eventually give you absolutely nothing in a game that matters.  And what I mean, is my opponent could be playing two threats (Rod/2Sphere + Cannonist/Mage) on his turn and I would need double Force or a way to get a bounce spell and the win.   

I really think Memory Jar deserves to be in the deck because it's an artifact.  Unfortunately, I don't think its better than Frantic Search.  You have to analyze Jar as itself instead of Tinker, and it's definitely not a Draw7.  It's really expensive to play through hate and will often have no relevant impact on the game at all.   

My first list i built using this concept was based on the idea that I REALLLY wanted to play Necro in my TFK decks.  I would definitly play Necro for sure.

 

well if you have lists, can we see them?

my only problem is that i really cant get behind a ritual based deck that isnt playing necro. whats the deal with that?

There are so many reasons why I don't like Necropotence.  Play with it a few hundred games...

I really like your inclusion of Coliseum. I think you've found a really good innovation here. That card looks so hot, it makes me excited to play Magic.

That's meandeck tech for sure.

3 Thirst for Knowledge

Instead of 3 of this card, wouldn't a Memory Jar, Necropotence, and Windfall be better?

I really can't even understand what you mean?  The point of this deck is to play Thirst for Knowledge as a combo/draw engine. 

Memory Jar, Necropotence, and Windfall (terrible) are much better off in TPS/Grim Long.  Those cards are mana hungry and suffer problems linked with Cabal Ritual.   

This seems like a less stable manabase than I've seen in other TPS lists.  How has your testing gone against decks sporting 5 Waste/Strip effects, Magus of the Moon, and/or Null Rod packages?

Like I said before, Wasteland will end the day.  I could play around them easily enough though.  And a basic land will beat all of that 'cept Strip.

Gush, Thirst for Knowledge, Mana Vault, Polluted Delta, Mox Emerald, Ancestral Recall, Yawgmoth's Will

Did I miss something or is there a gush in ur list?

Yah, I meant to type out Gifts Ungiven.

[Troy_Costisick]

I really can't even understand what you mean?  The point of this deck is to play Thirst for Knowledge as a combo/draw engine.

Then why not play 4 of them and really make the deck about that?  Right now, you're leaving out proven powerhouses like Jar and Necropotence to prove...what?  That TFK is as busted as Brainstorm?  TFK is superior to cards that can draw you seven?  My remarks were meant to point out that you've left out some seriously strong cards that could potentially improve the chances of this deck winning. 

Let me just start off by saying I designed this deck with the intentions of beating Fish.  Necropotence doesn't even pass drafting stage because it's bad against Fish.  True, Necro is ridiculously broken but sometimes sacrifices have to be made.

What's the top 8 in your meta like?  Are Fish decks outperforming Storm and Mana Drain decks there?  Or are you just designing an anti-Fish deck because you think Fish has grown to be such a huge part of the metagame that a dedicated hate deck for it can succeed?

[desolutionist]

Then why not play 4 of them and really make the deck about that?  Right now, you're leaving out proven powerhouses like Jar and Necropotence to prove...what?  That TFK is as busted as Brainstorm?  TFK is superior to cards that can draw you seven?

Yeah that's exactly right.  I look at Memory Jar and think about how for one more mana, I can draw 19 cards.  It's 5 mana and doesn't put you ahead at all.  Thirst is tactically strong in counterwars and far more reliable when it comes to getting what you want out of it. (I really would like a 4th TfK.)

What's the top 8 in your meta like?  Are Fish decks outperforming Storm and Mana Drain decks there?  Or are you just designing an anti-Fish deck because you think Fish has grown to be such a huge part of the metagame that a dedicated hate deck for it can succeed?

A good Fish opponent will have 20+ maindeck cards that I have to deal with.  Where I play, Fish and Stax make up about half of the field.  So swiss is just as important as top 8.  This is where the 3 maindeck bounce spells pays off.  It's so good.

I'm definitely only cutting what doesn't work, and it goes a long way against the decks you have to be interactive with.

[Negator13]

I'm experimenting with a TPS build running Thirst for Knowledge and 2-4 Chrome Mox. The moxen are intended to solve the two problems I noticed while trying your build out: 1.) too often you don't hit 3 mana with enough reliability to cast TFK when it matters, and 2.) you often do not have an artifact to pitch (usually because you have to play out your moxes in order to play TFK in the first place). I think Chrome Mox does a good job of mitigating both of these issues; it gives you 1-2 more mana sources without having to dilute the deck with more lands, and it makes TFK a much better card. It's also very good with Bargain/Jar/Twister.

Here's the list I'm working with now:

1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
2 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
4 Duress
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mind's Desire
1 Memory Jar
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild



Thoughts?

[M.Solymossy]

 I've just started working with TPS again, and my thoughts on it are this:  If you're adding TFK, can't you play with 3 Dark Rituals and still negate the loss of 1 by casting TFK's?  You're a turn 3 or turn 4 combo deck with control, so you should in theory be able to combine elements of TPS with Drain Tendrils.   Here is the list I'm going to start testing, taken from Negator13, with mods

2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
3 Dark Ritual
1 Mana Vault

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Gush
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mind's Desire
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild
3 Mana Drain
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Necropotence
1 Skeletal Scrying/night's whisper

[Negator13]

TfK is now even better than it ever was because Brainstorm is restricted.  You don't really present a good argument for why it should be restricted though.  Yah true, its blue hand-fixing + card advantage.  We'd probably play Compulsive Research if it was gone. 

This is from desolutionist's post in the thread about unrestrictions, talking about Thirst for Knowledge's quality as a draw engine and you mentioned Compulsive Research being next-best-in-line to TFK. I'm wondering if Comp Research might actually be better in this TPS build than Thirst itself?
The thing about Thirst I noticed in this "TFK Long" list was that TFK is a really nice effect to be able to have in the deck because it is the cheapest and most potent draw engine available now that BS is gone, but the problem in a TPS deck like this is that you really want to be able to keep your artifact acceleration and would usually rather be pitching a land than a Mox to your draw spell. Plus, you usually need to play a mox to be able to run TFK out there early enough to matter (turn 2) so that is conflicting tension with the fact that you need to hold Artifacts to pitch. Given that there are few instants in TPS anyway, (you are rarely casting spells other than FoW during your opp's turn) I suspect Comp Research might actually be better than TFK in a deck like this. You'd much, much rather pitch lands after you already have 3 mana on board.


EDIT: I suppose TFK's usefulness in counterwars is an issue, but I can't really say how big of a deal that is as I haven't had much chance to test lately.

[Qube]

I think the problem with Compulsive Research is, that it's able to play misdirection on this.

And if you play with TfK, i wouldn't cut tinker and DSC... even TPS with much more rituals and without any discard effect doesn't cut DSC.

[desolutionist]

Qube is right on Tinker/DSC.  It's way better than Thirst for Knowledge.

Negator,

I liked your Chrome Mox idea more!  TfK is instant speed, so it gives you a lot of options when it comes to interacting with your opponent; that's the main reason its better at least...  I also disagree with "I'd rather pitch lands than artifacts" since Darksteel is probably the inspiration for playing TfK at all.  Mox Pearl, Emerald, and Ruby are often worse in your hand than lands AND much better in the graveyard.  But there are definitely some times I discard 2 lands to TfK AND play it Sorcery speed, so I can understand wanting to play CR. 

I'd also like to just remind everyone that I haven't been able to play my list in any tournaments yet and for two months haven't had to change the maindeck a single card despite hours of testing each week.  I can't wait to play it in a future event.

[nineisnoone]

If you play Chrome Mox, you might want to consider Deep Analysis.  Full power + 4 Chrome would make it easier to hard cast.  Plus it is not bad to discard it to Thirst for Knowledge.  It is sorcery speed and the flashback hurts you, but if you're running Chrome it seems like the best way to recoup the hand loss barring a sudden unrestriction of Fact or Fiction.

[zeus-online]

I like that suggestion, i'm playing 1 DA in my tez deck and i'm loving it...i could imagine it'd be similar in this deck...Besides any hand that can hardcast it turn one is generally pretty good. Beware of misdirection though.

/Zeus

[Qube]

Qube is right on Tinker/DSC.  It's way better than Thirst for Knowledge.

I liked your Chrome Mox idea more!  TfK is instant speed, so it gives you a lot of options when it comes to interacting with your opponent; that's the main reason its better at least...  I also disagree with "I'd rather pitch lands than artifacts" since Darksteel is probably the inspiration for playing TfK at all.  Mox Pearl, Emerald, and Ruby are often worse in your hand than lands AND much better in the graveyard.  But there are definitely some times I discard 2 lands to TfK AND play it Sorcery speed, so I can understand wanting to play CR. 

I do not think its better than Thirst, I mean you should run DSC in a Storm-build as a second wincondition. because without DSC there will be a huge problem against all denial/landdestruction, sphere.dec. I mean with a singleton extract (just as a sample) you lose the match if you just run Tendrils.

If you play with the "blue variant" of this deck, I would also play a few drains. but fewer TfK, because you better play a "real bomb" over a draw.

I've just started working with TPS again, and my thoughts on it are this:  If you're adding TFK, can't you play with 3 Dark Rituals and still negate the loss of 1 by casting TFK's?  You're a turn 3 or turn 4 combo deck with control, so you should in theory be able to combine elements of TPS with Drain Tendrils.   

That's the point !! By the list of M.Solymossy, I would change this:

-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 Necropotence
-1 Skeletal Scrying/night's whisper
-1 Underground Sea
-1 TfK

+ Tinker
+ DSC
+ Time Walk
+ Cephalid Colosseum
+ Deep Analysis
Because I think Necro is just a house first turn over a d.ritual.

-Qube