Mini-Primer: Miroir Magique (New budget combo deck)

[LotusHead]

(Gush was unrestricted once...twice)

While all cards (sans Mind's Desire) start off not restricted, a bunch of broken cards (plus Trinisphere and Gift's Ungiven), get restricted later on. Some get un-restricted.

Gush was one of these,  (like MindTwist, Chrome Mox, and Dream Halls).  Then Re-restricted.  But it was (as far as I know), un-restricted once.

Belcher is definitely not one of those better decks. And neither is Meandeck Sex, even though both of these have a higher percent chance of winning on turn 1. That does not define a good deck.

Can you explain why you think this is better than TPS?  To be perfectly honest, I can't dispute this one way or another because I don't have a deep enough understanding to evaluate the deck on that level.  You seem to be more familiar than many with the deck, so I'd be interested in hearing why you think it's better than TPS.

Meandeck SX (Storm 10) was that deck that played Darkwater Egg, 2 lands and 3 fetches and rolled over and died in actual tourney experience, very different from TPS, the estabilished and winning archetype...

Unless I'm wrong.

[nineisnoone]

OOOOhhh.  I only know it by reference so I didn't know it was called that.

[policehq]

Yeah please don't get me in trouble. I didn't, and won't, try to make the argument that this is comparable to TPS in silly arguments that start with "Why play this if [x deck] is better?"

I think LotusHead and I played a few games with a deck I build playing Manamorphose and Spirit Guides instead of Chromatic Stars and Memory Jar. I gave up on it, so it's nice to see this list and some success.

[TopSecret]

Is there any potential for Phyrexian Portal over Fabricate or Planar Portal?
It seems like it could have potential, depending on the build and win condition.

[saspook]

This is a new card in Conflux that could take the place of Manamorphose.
Kaleidostone

When it comes into play draw a card. 5 , tap, sac: add 1 of each color to your pool.

It would only work after channeling, but could help you with getting Fabricate -> Mirror turn two with out any power.

[nineisnoone]

Yeah please don't get me in trouble.

Ahh, yeah.  Misunderstood you.  Wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.
Again, big props on the deck.

Is there any potential for Phyrexian Portal over Fabricate or Planar Portal?
It seems like it could have potential, depending on the build and win condition.

Seems plausible?  Of course, it could easily be more expensive than Planar Portal only needing to fail twice.  I would think Fabricate would ultimately best call out of all of them.  The high life requirements of Planar Portal makes it a bit impractical.  Though Planar Portal seems the simpler deck to play. 

[FadeToBlack]

From what testing I've done, I can see the deck has some potential. But the majority of the discussion this thread is complete garbage. You guys keep battling about how your going to win, or the effectiveness of stuff like Manamorphose mid-combo....none of this is the problem with the deck. You can win with old-school Fireball, Blaze..whatever..those are menial issues with the deck. By far the biggest issue I've stumbled across is being able to setup a situation in which you can safely combo. Just telling us all that your going to go t1 Tutor t2 Channel every game isn't feasible. People have counterspells, Duress effects, etc. Just telling us that we're ignorant for trying to win when my opponent might have a counter (and we have such few ways to do anything about it) is simply ridiculous.

Honestly, I think the Doomsday variant that Harlequin suggested has a lot more going for it. It has all the tools of a more sturdy combo deck, with the Mirror+Channel kill.

[neotrophy]

I think you're absolutely right, FTB.  As I said at the outset, the single point of failure is what really worries me.  You do have counters of your own, but Pact isn't terribly useful for protecting Channel or the tutor for it, nor against Duress/Thoughtseize.  Against a heavy countermagic deck, Misdirection from the board might be a worthy addition for extra protection.

Chiz did point out early on that sometimes you do have to be patient with the deck, though.  It plays closer to TPS than Belcher in its timing.  Remember that you only have to get a Mirror into play to save yourself from losing and get a whole new hand, so if you expect that you can do that before you "lose", you don't really have to worry too much.  Your opponent will be expending resources both on "winning", as well as trying to stop you doing so. 

[sWoRdFiSh`]

I have to echo the sentiments above.
I'm having trouble tying the word "consistent" with any combo deck that needs a restricted card to go-off.
This could be possible if the deck type is bordering along the lines of combo-control, but then again I can see that this deck's playstyle is far from that.
The only real counter that the deck has is FoW, since PoN can be easily outmaneuvered by countering the tutor for Channel (i.e. Personal Tutor) and if your opponents still haven't realized this, wait 'til they do.
Unlike Doomsday with Mirrors, which can go off via Channel, a Doomsday stack and traditional draw-7 routes, while running counters AND discard, this deck only has FoW to impede an opponent's plan and progress its own -- I find that an inferior strategy, unless of course, you can push its going-off turn to turn 1 and 2.
In lieu of making this deck faster, has Street Wraith been tested?
It'll help increase the percentage of finding a Channel in your deck and it works wonders with Personal Tutors.

I haven's tested the deck extensively, so take my criticisms with a grain of salt, but perhaps like me, you've been playing all sorts of combo decks since 4 LED/B.Wish Long.
I did try to resurrect 'em all every time an enabler gets restricted (i.e. LED, Gifts, Flash, Gush, etc) but I always came to the conclusion that I have to be insanely lucky if I want to consistently put up good numbers while relying on a restricted card.

I have to ask how this deck is doing against discard, especially since Tez lists are now sporting both counters and heavy discard, not to mention it's pretty common to face equally fast combo decks that run the full compliment of 8 discard effects.
I've read a report somewhere here saying this deck fails miserably when pummeled with discard (GWB Aggro thread, I believe).

Since you frequently mention that you're winning quite consistently, I have to ask if you also have taken this deck in:
1. Another metagame, especially one that is different from yours, and;
2. At least 6 rounds of swiss, excluding the top 8 playoffs (at least 30 players, if my computation is correct).

If yes, I would be very interested with your data in the above scenarios.
If not yet, then please post data as soon as you do.
Because if I have to be honest, those are the only data that will mean something for most of us here.
And I think that's also why people find it hard to take this deck seriously.
It's not that they discard every single deck that doesn't see play in their meta; it's just that you have to win either a BIG tournament first (i.e. 50+ players) then play it consistently afterwards or top 8 consistently with it in varying metas before anyone can consider this as a real metagame "factor", at least before they take your word that this is indeed a winning deck.

Nonetheless I have to agree that it looks like an awful lot of fun to play, especially if you still have the surprise factor.
I have to praise the "tricks" part of your primer as well.
It's one of the best "card usage" sections that I've read by far.
Fabricate has long been a potential card, good job in finally finding it a home.
I'd be the first to thank you if this deck goes the distance; that will surely help increase the value of my Lich' s Mirrors here.

[Chiz]

Since you frequently mention that you're winning quite consistently, I have to ask if you also have taken this deck in:
1. Another metagame, especially one that is different from yours, and;
2. At least 6 rounds of swiss, excluding the top 8 playoffs (at least 30 players, if my computation is correct).

1- Yes, I did play it in two different metagame.
2- Yes, In a 35-40 players tournament (I can't remember how exactly, that was in November). And I made top4 in that tournament.  (By the way, it takes 32 players to play 6 rounds of swiss).
And by the way, the tournament I splitted (24 players), there was lot of really good players in. There was at least 6 players that did top8ed in at least 1 SGP9 tournament before, those tournament aren't that easy to win.

I find that an inferior strategy, unless of course, you can push its going-off turn to turn 1 and 2.

Doomsday is a lot more affected to hate than this deck I think. They need to tutor/find an anti-hate card for Chalice of the Void/Null Rod/Canonist/Mindcensor, while this deck can combo through them.

The only real counter that the deck has is FoW, since PoN can be easily outmaneuvered by countering the tutor for Channel (i.e. Personal Tutor) and if your opponents still haven't realized this, wait 'til they do.

If they FoW my Personal Tutor, I'll be happy, really... You have to realize that you have 9 Channel in the deck, so countering the tutor isn't that good most of the time. And by the way, you can protect your Tutor with PoN if you have a draw effect in the table (Top or the Star) and with that same turn.

In lieu of making this deck faster, has Street Wraith been tested?

As a french guy, I find the use of "In lieu" innappropriate! 
That said, Street Wrait isn't good really in this deck I think. Unlike other combo deck, 2 lifes is sometime very important, that could be the difference between being able to cas Lich's MIrror with Channel or not. But you have already draw effets to draw the tutored card right now (Which you don't want to draw now if you're turn 1, unless you have Black Lotus, which is rare...). When comboing, Star is supperior to Wraith.

Is there any potential for Phyrexian Portal over Fabricate or Planar Portal?
It seems like it could have potential, depending on the build and win condition.

I really doubt... Sorry!
You understand that Phyrexian Portal Lets the opponent to make two face-down pile?? And you remove one of those without knowning what's in it? What happen if you remove your Karveck's Torch from the game!?

[sWoRdFiSh`]

I see. Thanks for the quick response.
I somehow missed that Chromatic Stars and SDT's are already filling up the delay that Personal Tutors cause very nicely.
I guess I should goldfish with the deck more so I may assess the strength of Street Wraith with the deck appropriately.

Your tournament results with the deck is quite remarkable as well.
Now I'm intrigued with the general negative response that this thread is receiving.
Do continue to post future tournament results (especially from your team mates that run this deck as well).

Lastly. although I agree that this deck has the upper hand vis-a-vis Doomsday.dec on grounds of fighting through the hate, I think Doomsday wins in the "stopping the opponent" department since it runs discard.
I have been running PoN in a couple of decks lately and I'm not very happy with it.
It serves its purpose in a few occasions, but It's a dead draw in even more games.
I'm more of a "discard in combo" fan in this Brainstorm-restricted era.

Have Duress or Thoughtseize been tested in place of the PoN's?
Or would it compete with SDT's, Stars and Personal Tutors' casting turn?
I've read earlier in this thread that the random, lone Duress was doing great, so maybe it would be worth running a full compliment after all.

[neotrophy]

I guess I should goldfish with the deck more so I may assess the strength of Street Wraith with the deck appropriately.

I really don't think that this is the deck for Street Wraith.  I think that almost any card that cycles for is at least as good, if not better.  Rebuild, in particular, strikes me as a far better addition to the deck, since the deck does have an issue with Null Rod. Obviously, you try not to cast it with a mirror in play* 

Trying to find slots into which you can put a cycling card is definitely difficult, though.

*edit: Actually, you can cast Rebuild with a Mirror in play, particularly if you've already cast Channel this turn.  You can kill yourself while it's on the stack, and you will have no permanents (thus no artifacts), 20 life, 7 cards and a Rebuild in your graveyard.

Oh, and I realised earlier that I said that you couldn't use PoN to protect Channel, or the tutor that you use to fetch it.  The fact is that you can, if you can be sure that you get it through, and that you either go off, or end with a Mirror in play.  Or of course, if you think that the chances of winning are higher than those of losing next turn (Mirror won't help you if your opponent wins to get it out of the way and you have the PoN trigger to contend with in your upkeep).

[the boogie man]

Lastly. although I agree that this deck has the upper hand vis-a-vis Doomsday.dec on grounds of fighting through the hate, I think Doomsday wins in the "stopping the opponent" department since it runs discard.
I have been running PoN in a couple of decks lately and I'm not very happy with it.
It serves its purpose in a few occasions, but It's a dead draw in even more games.
I'm more of a "discard in combo" fan in this Brainstorm-restricted era.

I don't quite know what you mean here. chalice @1 is bad for both decks, but this deck has a fair chance to die to creature attacks, as well as having wacky mana problems and succumbing to null rod. Plus, since the doomsday version only runs 1 lich's mirror, you are far less likely to be stuck with multiples in hand. And Doomsday can win off a top-decked doomsday. Top-decking lich's mirror usually sucks hard.

It may seem harsh, but the entire combo revolves around a restricted card. Doomsday at least has ways to find it -and- win with 1 card, this deck just can't seem to do that. And Doomsday has other routes to victory. How do you get around chalice for 1? Do you just hope to topdeck demonic or the channel?

Another question though. Has artifact hate ever been an issue? It seems that you could waste a lot of resources just to get the mirror grudged.

[Wagner]

Another question though. Has artifact hate ever been an issue? It seems that you could waste a lot of resources just to get the mirror grudged.

There is no way the Mirror can get destroyed. When you cast channel, you can pay any amount of life for mana. This is a mana ability, it doesn't use the stack. When you play Channel and then Mirror, you will cast Top or Fabricate or anything and if whatever would destroy the Mirror, you simply kill yourself in response and go for the combo. There is literally nothing that can stop you from doing that, not even Krosan Grip.

[sWoRdFiSh`]

I don't quite know what you mean here. chalice @1 is bad for both decks, but this deck has a fair chance to die to creature attacks, as well as having wacky mana problems and succumbing to null rod. Plus, since the doomsday version only runs 1 lich's mirror, you are far less likely to be stuck with multiples in hand. And Doomsday can win off a top-decked doomsday. Top-decking lich's mirror usually sucks hard.

Exactly what you said, plus:
1. Doomsday.dec can stop opponents from going off or impede its plans courtesy of FoW and discard.
2. Discard + FoW, I believe, is the way to go for storm-combo decks in a meta where decks can only run singleton Brainstorms. (except of course for the notable exceptions like ANT and EtW Belcher)
3. Doomsday has a more stable mana base.

However:
1. This deck can win easily with Null Rod in play.
2. This deck will hardly be affected by Chalice@0, also a very common play.
3. This deck can hardly be stopped as soon as Channel+Mirror goes online.

Trying to find slots into which you can put a cycling card is definitely difficult, though.

So I goldfished a bit and true enough, Stars and SDT's outshine Street Wraith.
I'm not ready to give up with the Wraith though.

[John Jones]

This deck loses hard to a chalice on 2 also which going into game 2 and game 3 will happen quite often. But wait... lemme guess you tinker plats like they don't have one of umpfteen billion removal spells in their deck.

I think you guys are missing the entire way to beat this deck and that is to just deal with channel. The fact that Lich's mirror decks have to resolve this single card in their deck and then on top of that win is not an easy task. If you personal turn 1 then they know what to expect for turn 2. If you personal turn 1 then they duress/seize turn 1 and you don't have 2 mirrors GGsir.

The general negativity comes from me because the deck is not that good. I have a feeling that in my meta this deck will get torn to shreads because
1) They already know about it
2) The deck is bad
3) There are a lot of shops.

But... I hope not

[Chiz]

This deck loses hard to a chalice on 2 also which going into game 2 and game 3 will happen quite often. But wait... lemme guess you tinker plats like they don't have one of umpfteen billion removal spells in their deck.

Which deck will more likekly be able to cast CotV at 2 before you combo? Workshop decks. What you side-in against them!? Shattering Sprees and Ancient Grudges. Like 5 in total.
By the way... I'm fine if you kept all those removal in your deck to only stop 1 single card (alternate strategy) of a combo deck.

If you personal turn 1 then they know what to expect for turn 2. If you personal turn 1 then they duress/seize turn 1 and you don't have 2 mirrors GGsir.

Why the game is finished!? Why!? You couldn't have FoW!? Fabricate!? You couldn't wait some turns to draw a Lich's Mirror/Fabricate!?
That's like saying: He casted Recall turn 1. There is no way the opponent can win this game. That's absurd. That gives him an edge, for sure, but that's by no mean GG!

The general negativity comes from me because the deck is not that good. I have a feeling that in my meta this deck will get torn to shreads because
1) They already know about it
2) The deck is bad
3) There are a lot of shops.

The general negativity comes from people who don't want this deck to be good. You come and say us: You loose to that, you can't win if your opponent do that, which are greatly exagerated.

[Magnum Innominandum]

This deck loses hard to a chalice on 2 also which going into game 2 and game 3 will happen quite often. But wait... lemme guess you tinker plats like they don't have one of umpfteen billion removal spells in their deck.

Same thing could be said about a lot of decks that goes for an alternate win condition in the form of a robots (Darksteel Colossus, Sundering Titans, Platinum Angel, etc...) I don't get your point.
For sure chalice at two is bad for this deck on game one but don't forget that it can easily address this situation in game two and three.

I think you guys are missing the entire way to beat this deck and that is to just deal with channel.

This also apply to decks that tries to wins on the back of Tendrils of Agony, even if I must agree on the fact that Tendrils is a bit harder to stop, since you must either use a stifle effect, have shroud or prevent the chain that would lead to a deadly Tendrils. 

The general negativity comes from me because the deck is not that good. I have a feeling that in my meta this deck will get torn to shreads because
1) They already know about it
2) The deck is bad
3) There are a lot of shops.

But... I hope not

Just as a recall this is a budget combo deck offering a good way to get in vintage that doesn't cost you an harm and a leg. It have cards that allow you to interact with your opponent in the form of 4 Pact of Negation and 4 Force of Will and have an high blue count, this doesn't seam that bad as a start.

It did prove it playability by placing twice in top8.

In the end, I guest this deck is just not your style, but that doesn't mean you must dismiss it as being bad for such a reason, all that you said to dismiss it so far can be said about a lot of decks...

I'm not saying that this deck is the best deck out there, but it seem to be a lot more playable than what you would like us to believe.

[ChaosOrb]

I really like this deck idea.     Running non-traditional lands also helps with land hate like Sundering Titan which I'm seeing a lot in my area.

[mistervader]

I strongly suggest having a few Chrome Moxes in the deck to minimize the number of cards you go through in your loops. The nice thing about the Spirit Guides is, after you use them, they never come back. The same can be said for cards you imprint with Chrome Mox.

As a Doomsday player who runs Mirror, I've experienced a lot of nifty tricks using the Mirror with Channel, and this is an entertaining deck to play, to say the least.

[BruiZar]

If you personal turn 1 then they know what to expect for turn 2. If you personal turn 1 then they duress/seize turn 1 and you don't have 2 mirrors GGsir.

Why the game is finished!? Why!? You couldn't have FoW!? Fabricate!? You couldn't wait some turns to draw a Lich's Mirror/Fabricate!?
That's like saying: He casted Recall turn 1. There is no way the opponent can win this game. That's absurd. That gives him an edge, for sure, but that's by no mean GG!

Wouldn't the correct play be a first turn Chromatic Star so you use the next turn to grab channel with personal tutor and go off?

[Wagner]

If you personal turn 1 then they know what to expect for turn 2. If you personal turn 1 then they duress/seize turn 1 and you don't have 2 mirrors GGsir.

Why the game is finished!? Why!? You couldn't have FoW!? Fabricate!? You couldn't wait some turns to draw a Lich's Mirror/Fabricate!?
That's like saying: He casted Recall turn 1. There is no way the opponent can win this game. That's absurd. That gives him an edge, for sure, but that's by no mean GG!

Wouldn't the correct play be a first turn Chromatic Star so you use the next turn to grab channel with personal tutor and go off?

That requires 3 mana, which you don't always have on turn 2.

[mistervader]

Oh, one more comment...

Is there room to squeeze in 4 Serum Powder? RFGing a few cards in a hand you don't like can be mad good, IMHO. I am a fan of minimizing cards that go around during a Mirror Loop, so this might be a good idea.

[Chiz]

Oh, one more comment...

Is there room to squeeze in 4 Serum Powder? RFGing a few cards in a hand you don't like can be mad good, IMHO. I am a fan of minimizing cards that go around during a Mirror Loop, so this might be a good idea.

I doubt... When comboing, that's pretty useless. And what if you have a hand with your win condition and a Serum Powder!? You won't be able to use the Powder... Not really good...

[tokken]

what do u do against nullrod pre boarding? would a bounce like ecoing truth be helpful?
did you test scrollrack and Kaleidostone to be more save with colored mana?

imho all interesting cards but what to cut?

[Ruven]

is this discussion still on here?

Because I really like the decks from the way it works and have been goldfishing it a couple of times, but I sorta think, that it has severe problems against an early wasteland or two. Worst when it comes from a shopplayer who by that time also has a sphere or so in play..

I mean you run 15 lands, all of which are non basic and besides 2 moxen a petal and a lotus there's not really anything there that gives you additional mana.

I feel like this deck should have a hard time against fish/shop decks, but maybe I miss something here? Also the Side with grudge and spree doesn't help much, when you're on 1 land and there's a sphere in play, or when you're on 2 lands with a sphere and hold grudge or so. (Which I think is not entirely anreasonable assumption or is it?)

Help on this issues would be appreciated, since I'd really like to take this to a tournament sometime, but for know I would really fear of losing to half the decks. (Even if only because I don't knwo how to play against these decks with a combo deck like this one)

Peace
Ruven