Noble Fish: GUW variants here!

[Harlequin]

@ Mage v Confidant
I totally agree its ~almost~ pointless to compare them because, as you pointed out, they server completely different roles.  I wouldn't have even bother, but I was respondin to "Dark Confidant is also much better than Meddling Mage." made at the end of Campee's post immediately before mine.

As to more general Mage questions:
I feel like I could write a book about Meddling Mage.  I've played him on and off sinse the days of Flamevault Gifts.  Asking "How do I name the right card" is almost like asking "How do I make the right bet when I play Poker."  There are hundereds of things that go into cosidering what to name.  Basically there is nothing that shouldn't go into your consideration.  And much like betting in poker, the WAY you name a card with mage can sometimes have a bigger effect than WHAT you name.  To answer your statistical question, I would say about 1/4 to 1/5 of the cards I name are restricted, with well over 50% of those restricted cards being Tinker (so about 1 in 6 to 8 mages I play will likely be 'tinker').  About 1/3 of the time I name some form of removal for either the first Mage I played or Null Rod (more frequently postboard).   And somewhere around 1/2 of the time (maybe 2/3s) I name an "engine" card. 

As to 'when' is the right time to name Tinker?  You just have to feel it.  When is the right time to bluff hand and bet big in poker?  Its one of those questions experiance alone answers. 

One thing I always consider is: If I sit down against a completely unknown opponent, win the roll and my hand is Land MoxU/W Mage - What do I name (completely blind).  Before June it was unquestionably Brainstorm (which is one of the MAIN reasons I always was -against- runing brainstorm in UW fish - oh it was soooooo good).  Now I waffle between Drain and Thirst, as the Tezz meta aslo is waffling between a "solid" list.  However 'Tinker' as a #1-blind name has also been on the tip of my togue more than once (esp before I was running Hurkyls main). 

[the_lord_shaper]

Exalted stacks right?.....Yes it does!

[nineisnoone]

As to more general Mage questions:
I feel like I could write a book about Meddling Mage.  I've played him on and off sinse the days of Flamevault Gifts.  Asking "How do I name the right card" is almost like asking "How do I make the right bet when I play Poker."  There are hundereds of things that go into cosidering what to name.  Basically there is nothing that shouldn't go into your consideration.  And much like betting in poker, the WAY you name a card with mage can sometimes have a bigger effect than WHAT you name.  To answer your statistical question, I would say about 1/4 to 1/5 of the cards I name are restricted, with well over 50% of those restricted cards being Tinker (so about 1 in 6 to 8 mages I play will likely be 'tinker').  About 1/3 of the time I name some form of removal for either the first Mage I played or Null Rod (more frequently postboard).   And somewhere around 1/2 of the time (maybe 2/3s) I name an "engine" card. 

As to 'when' is the right time to name Tinker?  You just have to feel it.  When is the right time to bluff hand and bet big in poker?  Its one of those questions experiance alone answers. 

One thing I always consider is: If I sit down against a completely unknown opponent, win the roll and my hand is Land MoxU/W Mage - What do I name (completely blind).  Before June it was unquestionably Brainstorm (which is one of the MAIN reasons I always was -against- runing brainstorm in UW fish - oh it was soooooo good).  Now I waffle between Drain and Thirst, as the Tezz meta aslo is waffling between a "solid" list.  However 'Tinker' as a #1-blind name has also been on the tip of my togue more than once (esp before I was running Hurkyls main). 

Thanks for the pointers!

[Kaiser von Hugal]

Im sorry this isnt GUW - dont mean to hijack anything.  My list is GW:

4x Null Rod
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Seal of Cleansing - Id really like to squeeze Suppression Field in here for these
3x Tariff
4x Jotun  Grunt - Could be Goyf but I like Grunt's ability to fight Ichorid
3x Gaddock Teeg
4x True Believer
4x EtherSworn Canonist - This could hurt me against Control Decks - I may swap this for Children or Kataki
4x Aven Mindcensor
4x Icatian Javelineers

4x Windswept Heath
4x Savannah
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Lotus Petal
5x Plains
1x Forest


SB
4x Children of Korlis - Ichorid
3x Tormod’s Crypt - Ichorid
4x Ray of Revelation - Oath
4x Oxidize - Stax

[Guli]

Wow , your list is so similar to mine. But there is a fundamental difference. I don't use Null Rod but Vial with those kind of creatures. I think Null Rod should be supported with other kinds of creatures/cards. (curse, daze, etc..)

I am very happy with the last few sets from Alara. I redesigned my original Mr. Gaddock list and soon will post it here. Looks very promising.

[Stormanimagus]

Exalted stacks right?.....Yes it does!

Yes. This is why I think that Qasali Pridemage is a house for this deck. If you go:

Turn 1: Land, Hierarch
Turn 2: Land, Pridemage

then you'll have a 4/4 beating on turn 3 and you'll also have 1 mana available on turn 2 to sac it just in case. This seems some of the hotness to me.

@ Kaiser von Hugal-

I think it has already been proven to the Vintage community that W/x decks are outdated. They are simply too slow and, in a format filled with control they don't do enough to lock players out of the game. If there were more Welders in the format than I'd say that a Parfait sort of list might have a chance, but not right now.

@Thread- So I wanted to make a couple adjustments to my list given the printing of Qasali Pridemage:

GUW Selkie-Slam

Land (17):
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Creatures (19):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Instants (14):
4 Force Of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Sorceries (2):
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll

SB (15):
3 Children Of Korlis
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Trygon Predator
1 Ray Of Revelation
2 Hurkyl's Recall

[Guli]

Yep, I agree, Qasali Pridemage is strong.

Noble/Qasali both are good in the shop match up which is not an easy game if you run 3 colors and a couple basics. I am very very happy with my 2 lists. The one with Null Rod which is very similar to the one storm just posted and the Vial version which is pretty different but still it is aggro control.


Vial/Control

Lands:
    2 Tundra
    2 Savannah
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Island
    1 Plains
    1 Forest
    3 Windswept Heath
    3 Flooded Strand

Acceleration:
    4 Noble Hierarch
    4 AEther Vial
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Black Lotus

Creatures
    4 Qasali Pridemage
    4 Meddling Mage
    4 Ethersworn Canonist
    4 Gaddock Teeg
    4 Sylvan Safekeeper
    4 Aven Mindcensor

Blue toolbox:
    1 Time Walk
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Hurkyl's Recall
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Echoing Truth

Draw engine:
    4 Skullclamp

// Sideboard
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Pithing Needle
3 Path to Exile
4 Tarmogoyf

I am not going to write in depth clarification all over again. Go search for the 'Mr. Gaddock' thread it is 10 pages long.

I ran red splash for Welder/Shaman to have artifact control and to answer Tinker.
1) Tinker can't be answered with welder anymore.
-> I use Aven Mindcensor and Merchant scroll to answer Tinker. And in some situations Meddling Mage but I rather not.

2) Noble and Qasali are perfect to replace the red. Playing with noble gives me acceleration and makes my mana base less stretchy because he is green himself.
-> Exalted + Aven is a very strong finisher in stalemate positions on the ground.

[Kaiser von Hugal]

OK - i do understand the value blue adds to the deck - no question FoW, Stifle and Hurkyls Recall bring something a GW cant mimic.

With that said.... Ive decided the following 4 are my mainstays

Jotun Grunt
Qasali Pridemage
Icatian Javelineers
Aven Mindcensor

I can fit 4 of's of 2 of the following creatures - which are the highest priority - most versatile or answers?

Gaddock Teeg
Children of Korlis
True Believer
Ethersworn Canonist

[Guli]

OK - i do understand the value blue adds to the deck - no question FoW, Stifle and Hurkyls Recall bring something a GW cant mimic.

With that said.... Ive decided the following 4 are my mainstays

Jotun Grunt
Qasali Pridemage
Icatian Javelineers
Aven Mindcensor

I can fit 4 of's of 2 of the following creatures - which are the highest priority - most versatile or answers?

Gaddock Teeg
Children of Korlis
True Believer
Ethersworn Canonist

I have been playing around with almost all creatures and all kinds of color combinations for some time now. There is not 'best' this or that.

One thing I can tell though. You have to cast these threats, putting them in your deck looks cute on paper but you can't cast them all at once. So there is this smoothness factor, the relation between the creatures you pick and your mana base. Gaddock TeeG is more easy to cast than true Believer while Canonist is the easiest. The last list is all stuff that annoys combo. Like i said you can't and won't be able to cast them all against a good combo player. So their is no point in wasting too many slots to 1 match and definitely if you play null rod. I am working on a solution with acceleration and tutors but that means no null rod.

I say go with canonist and Aven to fight combo and control. Drop the rest.

[GRIMACE]

Hey Noah,  I played against you at the last Waterbury event and I was quite impressed with this deck (and your performance) and have been following this thread since. 

My question for you (as well as anyone else who has piloted a similar version of this deck) is to explain the usefulness of 4x Stifle.  I understand the incredible tempo advantage involved in stifling an early fetchland.  However, with Hierarch as well as numerous 2-drops, it seems that you would be forced to hold back waiting for your opponent to crack the turn 1 fetchland instead of playing a threat (or disruption piece like Null Rod).  It just seems that there needs to be a somewhat ideal condition in order for Stifle to meet its full potential.

I understand that Stifle has plenty of other uses as well (especially with respect to tempo), but it just seems that something much stronger could fit in that slot.  For instance, perhaps 2x Misdirection and 2x Negate strengthening your counter base to ensure your threats/disruption pieces stay on the table.  In any case, I would appreciate any feedback on how Stifle has performed in any of its uses.

Also, I would like to comment on Qasali Pridemage.  I agree 100% that this card fits perfectly with the theme of the deck and adds a powerful disruption piece to the already very strong disruption package presented.  It seems that aside from chalice @2, this choice is far superior to the maindeck 3cc Trygon Predator.

Yes, I'm aware that Stifle deals with chalice @2.  Is that one of the reasons of its inclusion?

Thanks in advance for the replies and great job with the deck.

[getcombowned]

I was wondering why it doesn't play mystical tutor. and a second bounce spell it seems to be a staple to have two bounce spells in a deck.

[Guli]

I am considering Thirst for Knowledge as draw and cycle cards. Also it can be scrolled up. This only in a version with Noble+Vial giving you options at opponents turn. When playing vial you like to leave the mana open and respond. Aven and vial do just that. Canonist is strong when you take up a play style like that.

Also I think Qasali Pridemage will replace Gaddock Teeg in my list. You have canonist/aven to stop combo anyways. To make things interesting Chalice of the Void could be added. It works well with Vial, it is free disruption and with the noble chalice@2 becomes interesting once the vial is set. You can always set Chalice@1 as well.

Normally in a standard fish TFK seems bad. But with good acceleration and a high artifact count that can be missed in multiples it should be considered. I realize TFK is more optimal with welders and robots plus drain decks. Still I want to hear thoughts about it as a draw/cycle INSTANT. Remember I did point out the suggestion WITH pitchable artifacts like vial and chalice or moxes/canonist you don't need.

TFK in Noble-Vial-Fish with Chalice?

[Stormanimagus]

I am considering Thirst for Knowledge as draw and cycle cards. Also it can be scrolled up. This only in a version with Noble+Vial giving you options at opponents turn. When playing vial you like to leave the mana open and respond. Aven and vial do just that. Canonist is strong when you take up a play style like that.

Also I think Qasali Pridemage will replace Gaddock Teeg in my list. You have canonist/aven to stop combo anyways. To make things interesting Chalice of the Void could be added. It works well with Vial, it is free disruption and with the noble chalice@2 becomes interesting once the vial is set. You can always set Chalice@1 as well.

Normally in a standard fish TFK seems bad. But with good acceleration and a high artifact count that can be missed in multiples it should be considered. I realize TFK is more optimal with welders and robots plus drain decks. Still I want to hear thoughts about it as a draw/cycle INSTANT. Remember I did point out the suggestion WITH pitchable artifacts like vial and chalice or moxes/canonist you don't need.

TFK in Noble-Vial-Fish with Chalice?

I would say no, but not because the artifact count would be low. I'd say no because you'll rarely have artifacts that you'll WANT to pitch early in the game. In order to drop an early TFK you'll have to go Noble on turn 1 and then leave mana up turn 2. At that point I wouldn't WANT to pitch Chalice (I'd probably already have played it on 0 anyway) or Canonist cause Canonist is good in so many match ups. If you are just using TFK as a filter card than you are missing the point of the TFK. TFK is for decks that need to stock the yard with artifacts or decks who need a powerful draw engine and a good drain sink. The amount of Card advantage you get off it is not even close to the cumulative card advantage you get off Selkie beating for an exalted 2 for two consecutive turns. I really think Cold-Eyed Selkie is enough of a draw engine to get the job done.

On another point. I don't like Aether Vial for a deck featuring Noble Hierarch. I don't like those two cards competing for my turn 1 play. And they will. They really both NEED to be cast turn 1 to be maximumly effective. People have the same problem with Stifle and Cursecatcher for this reason, but I think Stifle is an exception in that it really doesn't NEED to be cast turn one in order to be game changing. This gets to another point of mine

@GRIMACE - I think Stifle has value for this deck and, oddly enough, Hierarch is a card that makes it only better. Let me explain. Sure you can hold off on casting Hierarch turn 1 if you also have Stifle, but that gag will really only work game 1. Once they know you run stifle they will be far more careful about the timing of their fetches. You have to judge game 1 whether you want to take that risk or not (especially blind and on the play). On the draw you simply have to see if they crack their fetch to do something turn 1 or not. I like stifle more after turn 1 if you dropped Hierarch on turn 1 cause, chances are you'll have a spare mana floating around and Stifle is such an effective tempo card that hoses soo many strategies for 1 mana. It's one of those cards like Meddling Mage. On the surface it's very conditional, but it interacts with sooo many cards in Vintage that it still has usefulness.

[Guli]

I would say no, but not because the artifact count would be low. I'd say no because you'll rarely have artifacts that you'll WANT to pitch early in the game. In order to drop an early TFK you'll have to go Noble on turn 1 and then leave mana up turn 2. At that point I wouldn't WANT to pitch Chalice (I'd probably already have played it on 0 anyway) or Canonist cause Canonist is good in so many match ups. If you are just using TFK as a filter card than you are missing the point of the TFK. TFK is for decks that need to stock the yard with artifacts or decks who need a powerful draw engine and a good drain sink. The amount of Card advantage you get off it is not even close to the cumulative card advantage you get off Selkie beating for an exalted 2 for two consecutive turns. I really think Cold-Eyed Selkie is enough of a draw engine to get the job done.

I am way passed this explaination. No offense, but we are not in kindergarten anymore I want to hear more. Tell me why TFK should definitely not be used in vial/fish. Tell me the reasons. You don't need to explain to people what TFK does, there are probably people who know more about the card than yourself. I think your post is a bit too obvious, but not bad or anything. You are correct, if that is what you want to hear.
It is not just to draw cards, i want to do something with the ones i don't need. Make them useful. Maybe there are better ways than TFK, but brainstorm is gone. Ponder doesn't get rid of cards, Lat Nam Legacy doesn't seem great either. I also don't like Sage of Epityr if it was for the fixing. I have powerful effective bears and i would like to get a mix of them. Most fish run x4 (or x3) copies, is it a bad idea to throw in some card fixers in the mix to see more variety while you play? Maybe Impulse is a possibility?

On another point. I don't like Aether Vial for a deck featuring Noble Hierarch. I don't like those two cards competing for my turn 1 play. And they will. They really both NEED to be cast turn 1 to be maximumly effective. People have the same problem with Stifle and Cursecatcher for this reason, but I think Stifle is an exception in that it really doesn't NEED to be cast turn one in order to be game changing. This gets to another point of mine

Why do fish players don't take a step back for a second. What is with all the rush. Fish IS established and present out there we don't need to rush things. Stifle is a solid card but that is all it is, the same goes for cursecatcher. It is a choice, not a must.
I don't see it as a competition between cards. I see it as functionality, cards being similar in some ways, meaning you have 8 answers to do a similar thing. Curse/Stifle wants to disrupt the mana base early game. If you draw them both in beginning hand, you drop the curse and you will use the stifle a bit later. You can't play more than 4 stifle. If you say it is only good in opening hand, then don't play them because chances are not super great that you will draw them in your first 7 cards. But stifle and curse do reinforce each other in terms of mana denial. Just like vial and noble give me more acceleration, later on. The vial goes first unless you have only 1 land or something in your hand and really want to keep. Exalted has haste don't forget. Noble is NEVER a dead draw for a list with so many creatures. It is damage and mana fixing. Vial is counter/mana. Since damage means less turns the noble can be seen as control as well, semantics.

[Harlequin]

Vial:
I still can't figgure out why any fish deck would want to run ANY activated artifact in place of null rod.  Jitte, Vial, Etc... All good but they are certainly not as good as Timevault + Moxen. 

Stifle:
I disagree about "waiting" on stifle.  If you have stifle, IMO you keep open EVERY turn until you've spent your stifle (or found out they are playing mono-red budget burn).  The value of Vial or hierarch or whatnot will not be as strong as that first stifle on a fetch.  Stifling the 2nd fetch is not "just as good as the first" its much much worse.

TFK: 

It is not just to draw cards, i want to do something with the ones i don't need.

Fish shouldn't have cards you "don't need."  You need to run multi-purpose cards that have function and are valuable in many scenarios.  You aren't afforded the luxury of sifting through a bunch of junk to find your "answer."  "Answers" are not "bombs" they are the mirror opposite of a bomb in fact.  This is the fundamental difference between a combo/control deck and a fish deck.  The combo control deck needs filtering/card advantage to navigate through their deck and find the proper mixture of counterspells, hand-refuelers and bombs.  Fish, being mostly void of bombs, needs to have consistency on its side.  It can't spend 3 mana to find something, every time it taps its mana it has to be for the purpose of gaining tempo (using low amounts of mana/commitment to negate and disrupt large amounts of mana/commitment).  Fish is the bargain shopper of tempo.  It wants to spend 1-2 mana and one card to ruin the 5-6 mana 2-4 card plan of a control deck.   Thirst is a big cost in terms of tempo for a (hopeful) gain on board/hand advantage.  Cards like Stifle and Null Rod are a minor tempo cost, for a potentially show-stopping effect on your opponents development of board and hand advantage.

In General:
When building a deck You have to decide, am I going for board and hand advantage - or tempo advantage... you (almost by definition of the terms) can't have both.  And decks that try to have both, ultimately end up equally terrible at both. 

Decks that choose to gain a board and hand advantage, end up needing to find ways to shortcut the massive tempo loss of Thirst for Knowledge.  Moxen and Mana Drain do this very well... Vial and random silver bullets, in a technical definition accomplish this - but in the same way pee-wee tee-ball is technically a sport.

Decks that choose to gain tempo by suppression of their opponent's board and hand advantage, need to be aware of what the other deck is doing.  They are using Moxen and Mana Drain to cover the cost of their expensive tools and bombs, and That is fundamentally why Null Rod and Stifle (and wasteland) have a fighting chance ~ they knock out the pillars on which that are supporting their costly but powerful spells.  And they do this extremely well on turn 1 and 2, were the effect is most devastating and critical.   

On a tertiary note, running cards like Thirst and Mana Drain in a deck with Meddling Mage weakens Mage.  Brainstorm was a good card in fish, but it was better to ~not~ run it because you could (and did) name Brainstorm all day with Mage.  Because not running it hurt you less than naming it on Mage hurt control/combo decks of old.  This concept can be applied to Thirst.

[Guli]

Vial:
I still can't figgure out why any fish deck would want to run ANY activated artifact in place of null rod.  Jitte, Vial, Etc... All good but they are certainly not as good as Timevault + Moxen.

You forget that time vault combo didn't work for a long time. I agree that Null Rod is a very powerful weapon that belongs in the fish game plan especially with the cheap win conditions with artifact activation that changed the meta the last year (s).

Sitting and waiting with a mana drain is fine but casting a vial isn't? Vial clearly outplays drain decks if the cards are played right.

I rather cast a vial or noble than waiting with a stifle in hand. Cracking a fetch CAN be devastating sure but let us be fair, in a meta full of artifact acceleration stifle can be very poor as well. I don't see stifle saving the day against a broken hand. I don't want to really talk about these things at all actually. We both have an opinion but I just see merits in both rod and non-rod builds AND i experiment and play with both routes.

Vial = Tempo with lag. But once it kicks in you pick the fruits from it. The thing is that with 1 mana available turn 1 as a fish deck, there is not card printed that will stop a broken hand. Unless you want to play with massive amount of hate like Chalice AND root maze turn 1. But that hurts yourself as well and a couple turns later they ll blow you away anyway. (most likely) What I am trying to say is that dropping a cursecatcher turn 1 and passing is not super broken either. Nothing a mox or two can't fix. Still i can see how curse can act as a vial for your ROD to get in against drain or force but it weakens the longer the game goes on. That is it isn't it. Null Rod wants to finish off the game ASAP. All the focus is put in those early turns (critical turns) while Vial has a stronger mid game. If it survives the early game of course, but I played a lot of games and if they count for something, I manage to survive those early turns. This is due the fact that I always try to see fast combo as my NR1 target deck without weakening other match ups. Facing Vial is totally different that facing Null Rod. You will face more nasty creatures against vial-fish, meaning more meddling,canonist,qasali,aven. Against Rod you will most likely face less creatures, less effects but you will be denied mana. I say both mana denial and multiple effects from creatures can be devastating however the vial player will have a stronger mid game. Vial means a lot of creatures. More than the ROD-fish. And that makes the mirror favorable as well. They do have Null Rod but hey I won't lose too much sleep over it, i ll still be able to cast my creatures.

Vial is not my win condition and should not be compared to time vault and certainly not to jitte. I am having a wonderful time against tezz/vault with Qasali/Aven + Exalted. Gaddock Teeg is a card for tutor vial in my opinion. Qasali is more for standard vial and rod.

4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Meddling Mage
4x Aven Mindcensor

Right now I am convinced with these 16 bears as my threats. It answers a great deal out there. I agree that if you are working with 4 offs tutors/search aren't that effective. However if you go with survival and call's/wordly plus the black tutors you can build the entire deck around tutors/vials. When you can tutor in a silver bullet very quickly you can see how the effect creates a huge tempo boost. You nail them to the ground for a couple of turns. Good example is ichorid game 1. I had many games were the opponent just said "gg go to g2" after I cast a turn 2 Jailer.

I say this again, think outside the box. Don't make the mistake that whatever you know or some people say is absolute. I am all for debate and criticizing. Especially my own designs. Me, the guy with the 'Mr. Gaddock' thread promoting it for months just said goodbye to teeg when he saw Qasali for the moment. The problem is though is that Teeg sometimes played a crucial role against Force of Will. That is why I might use Force of Will myself again and that means I need blue cards. I figured to use hand fixers like brainstorm or diggers or whatever. I like the idea of Chalice + Force as additional disruption that is cheap (free) next to the entire gameplan with vial and all the things I said until now. One can combine effective free spells with anything right? But Force is demanding. I can think of many possibilities but I would appreciate some inspiration here.

Say TFK is not the answer (I wasn't found of the idea myself to be honest, but still...). And I am talking about the GWU but not with rod, instead vials. So the thread is the right platform to discuss this.

1.Is my call on removing gaddock from the consistent (4 offs) versions, and replacing it with Qasali, correct?
2.By removing Gaddock, is Force of Will a must again? Is this reasoning of me right according to you (reader)?
3.Is there a need of a draw engine? Selkie pops up in my mind but I worry about the 3cc, not optimal with vials. But maybe ignore that and go for it?
4.Chalice of the void as addition free disruption? Good/Bad? Works well with meddling mage and vial. (f.e.: Can protect like Safekeeper set @1)
5. The package of merchant scroll/hurk recall/ Echoing truth is to have an out against a Tinker before Aven. Is this enough?

I have more issues but these are the ones I am working on now. Here is the incomplete list as a reference for this entire post.

15 lands
4 moxes/lotus
4 Noble H
4 Aether Vial

4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Meddling Mage
4x Aven Mindcensor

5x Scroll/A-Recall/H-Recall/Echoing T/Time Walk

12 open slots

If Force of Will is added, only 8 left, and if 4 Chalice is added, 4 more cards. Can I support Force like this? 17 blue cards is tight.

Thoughts?

[GRIMACE]

I rather cast a vial or noble than waiting with a stifle in hand. Cracking a fetch CAN be devastating sure but let us be fair, in a meta full of artifact acceleration stifle can be very poor as well. I don't see stifle saving the day against a broken hand.

I agree with this statement.  In fact, this was my original point.  Stifle IS much more broken on the first fetchland which causes you to wait and give up precious time where you could be casting threats and/or disruption pieces.  In an ideal situation, I feel that stifle is amazing.  Also, I feel that when Brainstorm was legal as a 4x, stifle was MUCH more powerful.  With the way things are in vintage at the moment, I feel that stifle is lacking.

As for Null Rod, almost every time I've resolved one, my opponent looked very ill (or very frustrated at the absolute least).  If you play on winning with grizzly bears, Null Rod seems like a natural inclusion as it shuts down over 1/6th of most of the Vintage decks.  In addition, it single-handedly shuts down the most played (and most powerful) 2 card combo currently in Vintage.  Combine this with an assortment of other disruption spells/creatures and I believe it is a very powerful anti-strategy that hits the majority of current Vintage powerhouses.

@Guli:
I was really curious about your experiences with Canonist.  I've tried her as sideboard against any type of storm/TPS.  In almost every instance where she resolved, the TPS player would tutor up either Hurkyl's Recall or Rebuild and take out my Null Rod and Canonist at the same time.  Do you really feel that it is up to par with your other disruption creatures?

[policehq]

Currently, I don't think Aether Vial should be played in competitive Vintage.

However, I think that Noble Hierarch and Aether Vial are okay in the same list, just like Aether Vial and Goblin Lackey were once played together (before Null Rod was necessary in Goblins). Noble Hierarch is useful the turn that it comes into play because of the Exalted mechanic, so Vial would take priority in an opening hand in nearly every situation I can imagine with a deck built around the right mana curve.

As far as creature draw engines go, Sygg River Cutthroat and the Vedalken Heretic from Alara Reborn are options in UGW Fish. Beyond that Survival of the Fittest and 1 Squee might be good in combination with Aether Vial and disruptive creatures. Again, I don't think the time is right for that deck though.

EDIT: Sorry I mean Vedalken Heretic, not "new serpent creature."

[brianpk80]

Say TFK is not the answer (I wasn't found of the idea myself to be honest, but still...). And I am talking about the GWU but not with rod, instead vials. So the thread is the right platform to discuss this.

Standstill, perhaps?

[Guli]

@Guli:
I was really curious about your experiences with Canonist.  I've tried her as sideboard against any type of storm/TPS.  In almost every instance where she resolved, the TPS player would tutor up either Hurkyl's Recall or Rebuild and take out my Null Rod and Canonist at the same time.  Do you really feel that it is up to par with your other disruption creatures?

Rebuild and Hurk Recall are good against vial/canonist or rod/canonist. Those are the cards you want to name with Meddling Mage. But the real answer here is Aven Mindcensor stopping them from finding answers. I never let them just tutor freely. Especially if you play mana denial you should be able to disrupt them and stop them from freely finding their answers.

I was very happy with my combo match up with safekeeper in combination with teeg or/and canonist or/and believer. I cut safekeeper and teeg but I added Aven M realizing that combo HAS to tutor in order to win. Aven + Canonist on the board should be enough if you name the correct card with meddling mage which is situational and hard.

Maybe against tendrils/naus teeg can be sided  in for Qasali. Now that is an idea.

Standstill, perhaps?

You think it would work? I can't predict this one. My concern is the lack of wasteland/mishra. Sure with vial it is great but we both know you don't always see the vial.

Another thought is cut the scroll/hurk R/echoing and play with 4x Thornweald Archer to deal with Inkwell if you didn't manage to stop tinker. You can't hope for the scroll/hurk R. But 4x Thornweald Archer and 4x Aven Mindcensor seems an ok call. They both are good against aggro as well. The thing with this idea is that the blue card count is lowered to 7, feathering only meddling/a-recall/walk. Are these cards worth the blue splash? Or perhaps now standstill would work with MORE creatures added.

[brianpk80]

Standstill, perhaps?

You think it would work? I can't predict this one. My concern is the lack of wasteland/mishra. Sure with vial it is great but we both know you don't always see the vial.

I am not sure how well it would work in an absolute sense, but I would think if one's goal is to draw cards, it would get the job done more effectively than Thirst for Knowledge.  Wasteland and Mishra's Factory aren't necessary precursors to playing Standstill.   Assuming the opponent isn't running Mishra's Factories, Faerie Conclaves, Mutavault, etc. a single creature on the board, on your side of the table, sets up a game state where the opponent theoretically must break the Standstill, or will inevitably lose.  There's no burden on you to cast further spells, but there is a burden on him/her to break it eventually because if no further spell is cast, the creature will eventually become lethal.   

Personally however, I don't think that in the draw department, there is a truly comparable replacement for black splash + 4 Dark Confidants.  When I pilot Fish, I find that I feel vulnerable and strategically "naked" even if I don't have some form of draw/filter/CA on the table or in hand, whether it's Ninja, AR, Bob, Oath of Ghouls, Sensei's, or in some lists Bazaar. 

Another thought is cut the scroll/hurk R/echoing and play with 4x Thornweald Archer to deal with Inkwell if you didn't manage to stop tinker. You can't hope for the scroll/hurk R. But 4x Thornweald Archer and 4x Aven Mindcensor seems an ok call.

I would hesitate to think of Archer as an answer to Tinker while DSC is still floating around. 

[Stormanimagus]

Standstill, perhaps?

You think it would work? I can't predict this one. My concern is the lack of wasteland/mishra. Sure with vial it is great but we both know you don't always see the vial.

I am not sure how well it would work in an absolute sense, but I would think if one's goal is to draw cards, it would get the job done more effectively than Thirst for Knowledge.  Wasteland and Mishra's Factory aren't necessary precursors to playing Standstill.   Assuming the opponent isn't running Mishra's Factories, Faerie Conclaves, Mutavault, etc. a single creature on the board, on your side of the table, sets up a game state where the opponent theoretically must break the Standstill, or will inevitably lose.  There's no burden on you to cast further spells, but there is a burden on him/her to break it eventually because if no further spell is cast, the creature will eventually become lethal.   

Personally however, I don't think that in the draw department, there is a truly comparable replacement for black splash + 4 Dark Confidants.  When I pilot Fish, I find that I feel vulnerable and strategically "naked" even if I don't have some form of draw/filter/CA on the table or in hand, whether it's Ninja, AR, Bob, Oath of Ghouls, Sensei's, or in some lists Bazaar. 

Another thought is cut the scroll/hurk R/echoing and play with 4x Thornweald Archer to deal with Inkwell if you didn't manage to stop tinker. You can't hope for the scroll/hurk R. But 4x Thornweald Archer and 4x Aven Mindcensor seems an ok call.

I would hesitate to think of Archer as an answer to Tinker while DSC is still floating around. 

I'm curious to know why people still don't consider Cold-Eyed Selkie Legit as a Card Draw engine even though I performed well with it at a major Vintage Tournament. Don't get me wrong, Bob may still be better in many decks, but I think a jacked up Ophidian is still good.

EDIT:

Also, @Guli- I apologize for my terse and over-simplified post earlier. I rushed through it without explaining myself.  I mean, I like your desire to innovate. I really do. If I didn't have that same desire I wouldn't have had the balls to try cold-eyed selkie in the first place. And I do understand that a variety of cards can be used in fish decks to success when coupled with synergistic other cards. THAT'S actually why I think my deck did so well. It had the right combination of cards to defeat the meta-game.

Like another poster claimed earlier (and I agree with this sentiment) I just don't think the time is right for Aether Vial. You have to consider when playing it: even if it is good against Fish and Control decks there are a lot of decks out there running Null Rod and that negates Vial as a viable engine.

Also. I just think Vial is too slow right now. You are going to have to wait til a minimum of Turn 3 (and that will be more turns for them depending on who won the roll) to drop your 2 CMC dude with temerity and by then it'll be too late to have that threat do what you want it to do a lot of the time. I think you are trying to stack the deck in your favor even more against decks you already have a good matchup again and, as a result you are not addressing the problems of the deck enough.

The FUNDAMENTAL weaknesses of fish that are present merely by virtue of the fact that we run creatures and no crazy "oops, I win" combo are:

1. Oath (especially builds with progenitus)
2. Tinker (This is why I don't really like Ethersworn Canonist in the deck)
3. Ichorid (negates our interactive counterspells)

I think Qasali Pridemage is a huge boon in the effort to combat Oath because you can use it the turn it comes in to play and it is a solid beater MD so you don't have to dilute your deck at all to run 3-4 MD. It gives you a game 1 answer and then game 2-3 should be even better when you bring in 1-2 Ray of Revelation & Friends

Tinker. Ahhhhhh. How this card tortures me. You have 2 options against tinker. Well 3 if you count Hurkyl's Recall, but I like looking at that as a last resort.
Option 1: Don't let them cast it. Mana denial is a lot more effective than any other strategy that fish can employ right now because fetches are still in high use and players do have to tap out to win fast enough to combat control. Use this weakness to your advantage with cards like Daze, Wasteland, Stifle and Null Rod.
Option 2: Aven Mindcensor. This is another legit option and becomes more realistic with Hierarch as you should be able to drop it on turn 2. The problem here is the question: do I hold the mana up under the assumption that they have Tinker with Force backup (assuming you also have a force)? Do I drop a mage naming Tinker on my turn. Do I drop something else and hope for the best (i.e- that they just don't have it)?

Tinker is a bitch of a card to beat. Bottom line. Even you do everything right it may beat you. The idea is to do everything you can to give yourself the best chance to beat it.

Finally, Ichorid. Ichorid haunts my dreams. I do like that the Pridemage is splash hate for ichorid, and children of korlis also helps your cause, but I've been experimenting with the idea of Jotun Grunt again from the board as a way to shut down the engine. Wheel of Sun and Moon might also work, but I would rather have a slow hate-card be on legs like the Grunt is.

My last point of contention with you is Gaddock Teeg. I think he may have been slightly better during the Gush-Era, but I am simply not that impressed with him, and I don't like the fact that he forces you away from Force Of Will. I really think you need to think long and hard before you run a fish deck sans Force Of Will. TMWA is such a deck, but I think any Fish build running blue should be running FoW. It allows you to interact during the critical turns while still developing your board position. A free counterspell is a unique thing in magic and there is a reason it is referred to as the 'glue' of Vintage. Not to beat a dead horse, but I really think that FoW is a mainstay of good fish decks because it allows your threats to go all the way while pulling double-duty and keeping combo players honest (not allowing them to gold-fish to turn 1 against you to a high percentage of turn-1 kills). To me, not running force of will against the field is like ignoring the ichorid matchup for a whole tournament. You might get away with it, but I wouldn't take the chance of not meeting the matchup where you really really REALLY need it.

[Guli]

Quote
Another thought is cut the scroll/hurk R/echoing and play with 4x Thornweald Archer to deal with Inkwell if you didn't manage to stop tinker. You can't hope for the scroll/hurk R. But 4x Thornweald Archer and 4x Aven Mindcensor seems an ok call.

I would hesitate to think of Archer as an answer to Tinker while DSC is still floating around.

True, but that is why you run Path to exile alongside.
Aven Mindcencor, Path to Exile and Thornweald Archer should give you enough answers maindeck. You can run Hurk Recall in SB to replace whatever you don't need post board. The archer is also nice to nail 'Goyf and the exile to take care of Confidant, Welder, etc...

15 lands
4 moxes/lotus
4 Noble H
4 Aether Vial

4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Meddling Mage
4x Aven Mindcensor
4x 'Goyf
4x Cold-Eyed Selkie

3x Thornweald Archer
3x Path to Exile
3x Mystical Tutor/walk/A-recall

I ll take the advice and try out the selkie's for a while.

[brianpk80]

I'm curious to know why people still don't consider Cold-Eyed Selkie Legit as a Card Draw engine even though I performed well with it at a major Vintage Tournament. Don't get me wrong, Bob may still be better in many decks, but I think a jacked up Ophidian is still good.

I do think Cold-Eyed Selkie is a legitimate draw engine in the right shell and congratulate you for constructing a deck that took great advantage of its strengths and performing well with it.  I would run it over Thirst for Knowledge in (non-Welder) Fish any day.  The card drawers I mentioned were illustrative examples of engines I've had years of experience with that have worked in the past.  I don't yet have extensive experience with Selkie, but that isn't meant to disparage it. 

Like another poster claimed earlier (and I agree with this sentiment) I just don't think the time is right for Aether Vial. You have to consider when playing it: even if it is good against Fish and Control decks there are a lot of decks out there running Null Rod and that negates Vial as a viable engine.

Also. I just think Vial is too slow right now. You are going to have to wait til a minimum of Turn 3 (and that will be more turns for them depending on who won the roll) to drop your 2 CMC dude with temerity and by then it'll be too late to have that threat do what you want it to do a lot of the time.

The broad strokes of this are very reasonable.  AEther Vial is a fantastic and heavily underrated card, but its utility waxes and wanes with changes in the metagame.  It was always at its strongest, IMO, in the era of Gifts and Stax, because it warped the game so heavily in the Vial Fish player's favor against the two most popular decks, even while they were both at opposite ends of the strategy spectrum ("Enigma" v. Prison).  It bears noting that during this era, the card Thoughtseize did not exist, so Vial decks were essentially 100% immune from Duress after the first turn; all that was seen was land and creatures.  Ichorid was nowhere near as evolved and Oath of Druids decks always won with an aggro finish and could be foiled with the same answers that foiled Tinker.  V. Fish had a lot going for it. 

Vial Fish today is not at a power peak.  The problem right now isn't so much that AEther Vial is "slow," but that it conflicts with Null Rod which is so strong and that the metagame is fractured and has too much diversity of win conditions & major threats, some predictable, others not so much. 

The FUNDAMENTAL weaknesses of fish that are present merely by virtue of the fact that we run creatures and no crazy "oops, I win" combo are:

1. Oath (especially builds with progenitus)
2. Tinker (This is why I don't really like Ethersworn Canonist in the deck)
3. Ichorid (negates our interactive counterspells)

I think Qasali Pridemage is a huge boon in the effort to combat Oath because you can use it the turn it comes in to play and it is a solid beater MD so you don't have to dilute your deck at all to run 3-4 MD. It gives you a game 1 answer and then game 2-3 should be even better when you bring in 1-2 Ray of Revelation & Friends

This is a very accurate analysis. 

My last point of contention with you is Gaddock Teeg. I think he may have been slightly better during the Gush-Era, but I am simply not that impressed with him, and I don't like the fact that he forces you away from Force Of Will. I really think you need to think long and hard before you run a fish deck sans Force Of Will. TMWA is such a deck, but I think any Fish build running blue should be running FoW. It allows you to interact during the critical turns while still developing your board position. A free counterspell is a unique thing in magic and there is a reason it is referred to as the 'glue' of Vintage. Not to beat a dead horse, but I really think that FoW is a mainstay of good fish decks because it allows your threats to go all the way while pulling double-duty and keeping combo players honest (not allowing them to gold-fish to turn 1 against you to a high percentage of turn-1 kills). To me, not running force of will against the field is like ignoring the ichorid matchup for a whole tournament. You might get away with it, but I wouldn't take the chance of not meeting the matchup where you really really REALLY need it.

This is thorny.  Clearly, FoW has some pros, which you outline above, but the cons are the very heavy constraints it puts on deck design.  It has very little offensive purpose as it would in a Drain, Oath, or Combo deck.  By that, I mean there aren't any major bombs we cast that absolutely need to be protected, like Will, Tinker, or Druids.  Fish isn't a handsculpting deck that waits until the right moment to do something broken and force it through.  So half of the card's utility is already very attenuated in Fish, since we won't be using it in that critical manner often if ever.  Hence, it's working as an answer/defense.  Sometimes it's quite effective at that, but in a deck where almost every spell is already serving as an answer or defense, on a broad level it's not really doing anything that the deck isn't already designed to do.  The difficulty of course is the question of whether we have the right answer at the right time, whereas FoW is a general purpose catch-all.  In that respect, it's preferable.  But is it preferable enough to justify its cons?  That's the real question. 

Cons:
Constrains design by requiring a critical mass of blue spells, while Fish is evolving into green
Card disadvantage
Negative interaction w. Gaddock Teeg, Dark Confidant, occasionally Meddling Mage (specifically Mage on FoW)
Affected by Thorn
Can be Duressed and Misdirected, while Answer-Critter cannot (but can be Thoughtseized--& I really have no idea why they printed that card.)
Cannot be Vialed, which means if opponent Forces or Misdirects your Force, they win, whereas with Vial, the answer hits the table.
Useless against Ichorid.  Can't even block. 
Lowers the creature count of the deck by necessity, weakening the Fish mirror. 
Foiled by most combo protection: Xantid, Orim's, Duress, Pact, MisD.

With a varied meta making Meddling Mage a huge gamble, the only auto-includes I can think of for blue are Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, and probably Hurkyl's Recall today.  Demanding that a dozen or so blue cards be identified and included as well is burdensome.  Then the mana base has to be adjusted even at a time where, from what I can tell, the best "base" land of today's Fish decks is Forest.  I would think that instead the issue of having the right answer at the right time may instead be to include more tutors instead of mandating deck design fit within the shackles of Force of Will.  The pros of FoW in Fish may seem alluring, but some are illusory and it requires serious sacrifice.  To that end, I think decks like TMWA and Shop archetypes may be good beacons for a new direction.   

[Stormanimagus]

This is thorny.  Clearly, FoW has some pros, which you outline above, but the cons are the very heavy constraints it puts on deck design.  It has very little offensive purpose as it would in a Drain, Oath, or Combo deck.  By that, I mean there aren't any major bombs we cast that absolutely need to be protected, like Will, Tinker, or Druids.  Fish isn't a handsculpting deck that waits until the right moment to do something broken and force it through.  So half of the card's utility is already very attenuated in Fish, since we won't be using it in that critical manner often if ever.  Hence, it's working as an answer/defense.  Sometimes it's quite effective at that, but in a deck where almost every spell is already serving as an answer or defense, on a broad level it's not really doing anything that the deck isn't already designed to do.  The difficulty of course is the question of whether we have the right answer at the right time, whereas FoW is a general purpose catch-all.  In that respect, it's preferable.  But is it preferable enough to justify its cons?  That's the real question. 

Cons:
Constrains design by requiring a critical mass of blue spells, while Fish is evolving into green
Card disadvantage
Negative interaction w. Gaddock Teeg, Dark Confidant, occasionally Meddling Mage (specifically Mage on FoW)
Affected by Thorn
Can be Duressed and Misdirected, while Answer-Critter cannot (but can be Thoughtseized--& I really have no idea why they printed that card.)
Cannot be Vialed, which means if opponent Forces or Misdirects your Force, they win, whereas with Vial, the answer hits the table.
Useless against Ichorid.  Can't even block. 
Lowers the creature count of the deck by necessity, weakening the Fish mirror. 
Foiled by most combo protection: Xantid, Orim's, Duress, Pact, MisD.

With a varied meta making Meddling Mage a huge gamble, the only auto-includes I can think of for blue are Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, and probably Hurkyl's Recall today.  Demanding that a dozen or so blue cards be identified and included as well is burdensome.  Then the mana base has to be adjusted even at a time where, from what I can tell, the best "base" land of today's Fish decks is Forest.  I would think that instead the issue of having the right answer at the right time may instead be to include more tutors instead of mandating deck design fit within the shackles of Force of Will.  The pros of FoW in Fish may seem alluring, but some are illusory and it requires serious sacrifice.  To that end, I think decks like TMWA and Shop archetypes may be good beacons for a new direction.   

This is very insightful, and there might be something in a non-blue fish deck that is more along the lines of "The Forests Win Again!" LOL. However, I want to point out that it is not solely for FoW that I run Blue. The synergies between Noble Hierarch and Daze are also undeniable when you consider that no vintage decks have had a functional Birds Of Paradise that is also worth running for some other second ability. Finally we have that critter and now Daze has added synergy. In addition there are the cards you mentioned and also Stifle. I am not 100% sold on Stifle's power right now, but I still like the card for its all around utility. Meddling mage is still a beast, but not entirely necessary.

If we were to go the route of cutting Blue in a different build though and yet continuing to run Noble Hierarch and G/W what would your color config look like?

GWr? GWb? GWrb?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Running non-Bant colors with Hierarch is awkward.  My experience in that comes from trying to shift Bant Survival in Legacy to Doran (GWB) colors.  Legacy has all of the same mana fixing we do, and more time to set it up.  Anyways, I found myself fetching Bayou as my first land very consistently and having issues if it got Wasted.

Grim Lavamancer appears to be a strong card in the current meta since it rocks the aggro mirror, can hit Tez (2 damage+2 CMC Time Vault = 4), pings Welders and Lorescale Coatls, and it can kill itself at instant speed vs. Ichorid.  Mox monkey is always cute, and red has the best artifact hate.

Black competes for with Hierarch for a variety of first turn plays, but adds powerful sideboard cards.  It also replaces the lost blue counters with Duress/Thoughtseize.

The only real gain of GWrb over GWr or GWb is Hide/Seek...and it's lost a bit of its utility due to the printing of Inky.  Seeking out Inky isn't necessarily a bad play since other kills are easier to answer, but is that really what we want to be doing on turn 2?  Leaving mana open to counter a top deck tutor and nail Inky puts this deck in an uncomfortable reactive control role where mana may not always be spent each turn.

[GRIMACE]

So, I was looking through my old binders yesterday and I came across this card:



Could this be an alternative to Vial that can be cast alongside Null Rod?

Pros:

• Can put creatures in play regardless of casting cost
• One sided (unlike Oath)
• Works with Null Rod

Cons:

• More difficult casting cost than Vial
• Needs Threshold
• Relies on your opponent casting a spell

While it is possible that a new deck would have to be designed from the ground up to take advantage of this card, it does seem like a "Vialish" card that can be used along with Null Rod.  Threshold doesn't seem to be too much of a problem in a deck that takes advantage of fetchlands, cheap (free) counters, stifle, and cheap draw.  The time it takes to get threshold could be equated to the time Vial takes to ramp up.

In any case, I just thought the card was somewhat interesting and I'd love to hear thoughts as to whether it could be playable.

[Guli]

I must say, the card impressed me when I just saw it. However I did take a step back immediately. You already stated the obvious and correct first cons and pros. Let us look  closer.


I see threshold, opponent plays a spell AND creature in your hand. So you do need a creature in your hand.

I don't see the threshold being that much of a problem. With a 2 mana cost he can come down pretty fast. (turn 1 or turn 2) It is actually good that he isn't too cheap. You need a little time to fill your grave anyway to make it work. Bazaar/Riftstone seems like the way to go at first glance.

I never saw this card before, which is strange for me. Tarm also is grave demanding. The threshold doesn't scare me that much. I think it is solvable.

Opponents always play a spell unless it is dredge. Say we ignore the dredge match up and fight of dredge with some solid main deck cards and a good sideboard.


The fact of plays a spell is the most easy one to solve, in fact you don't have to do anything for it. That is hardly a con.
Threshold can be solved with Bazaar/Riftstone however I think the threshold deserves the most attention. Bazaar is a thought not necessarily the answer.
Having a creature in your hand might also be a problem. However the good thing about this card is that you can play with big creatures with more powerful effects. Vial is more focused on the 2cc bears and leave it at a static number (2). I can see dredge/bazaar working well with this card as well. Filling the grave quickly and cast tarms/knights of the R.

Being an enchantment is also relevant it doesn't die to splash damage of artifact hate.

If you use big non castable creatures you face the danger of getting your Hunting grounds countered and you lose. Shusher might be a good call here to force him through against drain/force/Chalice/Negate/...

Also Remora/Hunting Grounds might be worth looking into as well

These are my first thoughts about the card, a quick brainstorm session.

It is way too early to state that it is playable. Playable means playing and testing and bringing a report of the results.

[brianpk80]

If we were to go the route of cutting Blue in a different build though and yet continuing to run Noble Hierarch and G/W what would your color config look like?
GWr? GWb? GWrb?

I wouldn't cut blue entirely, especially in a build with Nobles.  It would remain for Ancestral, Walk, Hurkyl's, sideboard options and maybe a few critters with a . 

Generally speaking though, I prefer Black.  With a base land of Forest (meaning Windswept/Wooded as fetches, and Savannah, Trop, Bayou, as duals), I suppose Gwbu would be how one would describe it.  5C Fish isn't entirely out of the question either. 

[Guli]

Brian I think this quote has a point

Running non-Bant colors with Hierarch is awkward.  My experience in that comes from trying to shift Bant Survival in Legacy to Doran (GWB) colors.  Legacy has all of the same mana fixing we do, and more time to set it up.  Anyways, I found myself fetching Bayou as my first land very consistently and having issues if it got Wasted.

This is a good observation. Flooded and windswept are the fetches you want to use and i always add 3 basics of each color and 2 or 3 non-basics from the possible combinations. This leads to a stable mana base with Nobles/Rod. (And in Vial builds it is rock solid)

I find it harder to create the same stable manabase with GWB let alone GWBu. Basically it comes down to the fact that you need a non-basic or mox jet to gain access to black mana. Sure this is possible against most decks but you have a serious problem if you face heavy mana denial like Shop and Rod-Fish.

That is one of the reasons I run vial AND noble even WITH a solid mana base I don't want to get locked out against prison or null rod. It is not like their is only tezz or combo out there. You need to be prepared for the other match ups as well.