Noble Fish: GUW variants here!

[Campee]

These lists without FoW look like bad Extended decks.

[zabuza]

I was thinking about the configuration of the deck and playing it against opponents and the wall and i realized that there are several things i don´t like at all. The deck is very funny and is good too but:

• 1. I don´t like tarmogoyfs in this deck. I´m going to explain it now. Everybody knows that tarmos are the best creature beating in magic but in this deck we want selkie beating with exalted for 2, 3, 4, 5 or greater so if we have goyfs on the table they are only chumpblocking creatures. Beside of that this deck doesn´t fill the grave very fast so goyfs grows slowly. I´m thinking of replacing the 3 goyfs with the Jotun grunt of SDB. The explanation of this change is the following. We doesn´t have anything to avoid a brutal yawgmoth´s (fow or daze, but usually decks with yawgmoth has disruption too) so if we have a creature that cleans the grave preventing the opponent cast a Y.Win and making opponent´s tarmos smaller is a good adition to the deck.
• 2. The only response we have to Inkwell is 2  hurkill´s Maindeck. I´m not ver sold of this being enough to avoid the inkwell plan lot of decks have. What about using a couple of tariffs or sculting steel or something to combat the octopus. I know we had 3 mindcensor on SDB but i think they are little slow sometimes and if inkwell is in play the doesn´t help enough to win the game.
• 3. What about playing a couple or three serenity´s on SDB to combat stax decks. I don´t like children of korlis on SDB because i think they are there to combat strom decks but we have 4 Stifle MD so why we need the children there wasting 4 spots of the SDB
• 4. What aabout playing a couple or so rancors (moldervine cloak os something like that) IN MD to maximize the selkie power to draw. In my testing this little girl make me draws tons of cards so why don´t improving this awesome hability to reach it´s maximum exponent?. 
• The sinergy between noble, qasaali and cold eyed is really awesome. What about playing any other exalted creature witn another nice ability in the deck?

Well, What do you think guys about all things said above?
Nice day.

[Harlequin]

1. Goyfs:

I too have struggled with why I run goyf.  I've gone on record as saying: If no one ran goyfs I wouldn't run Goyfs.  The issue is that you will just get stomped by anything running goyf without him.  If you're goyf is sitting back as a glorified Carnivorous Wall, I don't see how Grunt is going to do anything but sit around and then eventually die.  I've never liked the "grunt disrupts yawg" arguement because if you are doing that, then you're refueling thier deck.  Do you really put back thier lotus? thier Recall?  It seems like Id rather fight the enimey I know (yawg) than refeul thier deck with bombs.

2. Inkwell.  Tariff and Sculting steel are both worse than just running more hurkyls (or merchant scroll to find hurks).  Sculpting Steel doesn't do enough on its own, and Tariff is too symetrical to be worth it in situations outside of tinker and oath.  Further more, niether are instants that answer Tezz targeting Timevault, nor can break you out of a shop-lock situation.  If you feel the deck needs more answers to Inkwell, I think you only start looking for new cards after you already have x1 Merchant scroll, x1 Mystical, x4 Hurkyls. 

3. of Serenity & Children of Korlis. 
Serenity is a neat card, and could be worth it - but I think the maindeck (with MD hurkyls, Trygons, and Pridemages) shouldn't need too much space in the board for the shop match.  I think 1-2 extra Trygons in the board is plenty.  I like trygon over other answers because you don't want to be caught behind a chalice@2. 
Children of Korlis is a great multi-role card in this deck.  He fills a very spesific role to be good against 2 very bad matches: Storm Combo and Ichorid.  In both of those matches, you can get a lot of headway by droping a turn 1 CoK (to put it another way, turn one you want to "CoK-Block" them).  It's very difficult for either deck to win on turn 2-3 when faced with a CoK-Block.  It doesn't end the game, but It certainly helps you get to the later turns where your other cards ~can~ win the game.  Storm typically runs 4-8 duresses and ontop of that they often supliment that with FOW or Pact of Negation (depending on what storm deck we're talking about).  If you think 4 stifles are enough to effectively beat storm, you need to play more games agianst them.

4&5. At OMG SELKIE!!!!1!!one! cards.
Rancor, Modlervine cloak, Unstable Mutation,  Rafiq the Many, Power Matrix, Orcish Oriflame ... All "win More" cards.  Selkie doesn't need help being amazing on his own.  Exaulted is a nice perk that turns a good card into an amazing card.  You don't want to clutter up the deck with cards that make selkie "omgwtfbbq-crap-your-pants amazing."  Because ultimately they will just get in the way when you need disruption.

I'm glad t see others have taken an interest in the deck.  And certianly the "Metagame Aarguement" can trump anything I've said here.  Meaning if you know your metagame is warped a certain way, any of the above suggestions are certainly viable. 

[zabuza]

Well. in some scenarios is better to refueling the opponent deck putting IN THE BOTTOM (yes, fetches mixes cards again but til, then bombs remain on the bottom) than waiting with a lotus or so in the grave where can be easily replayed (bomberman, Y WIN,artifacts for weldering,.....). The only thing i don´t like about grunt is that they die alone, but in this case opponent´s goyfs will be very small to care about them. I like goyfs too but in this deck i see them as a win more card.

I don´t play trigons MD because there are lot of cc3 cards in the deck. My version looks like the one posted by stromanimagus, but with little modificactions:

Land (17):
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Creatures (19):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Meddling Mage
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 JOTUN GRUNT
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Instants (15):
4 Force Of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Hurkyl’s Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

So as you can see there aren´t any Trigon MD .

Merchant, mystical and more hurkills is a good idea, but i´m not sure is the best because always is good to have several ways to handle a problem.

I´m not saying 4 stifles is enough to combat tendrils, for sure they´ll combo you out, but children of korlis doesn´t seem good to stop them too. I´ll test them but i don´t like them.

I was thinking about using a couple of lorescale coatl in the deck because we usually draw a lot so why no use that making a monster to eat the opponent(the only thing i don´t want is that it cost 3cc too).

[Harlequin]

Without Trygon you're really overloading stifle with work against shops.... which means in most cases, Chalice @ 2 is scoops for you (either dirrectly, or indirrectly bc you had to burn too many resources to answer it).  If you're ok with that then I would say leave out Trygon, but I find that he is worth running for that, and other reasons.  Currently I have 2 maindeck and 1 boarded.

[Stormanimagus]

Without Trygon you're really overloading stifle with work against shops.... which means in most cases, Chalice @ 2 is scoops for you (either dirrectly, or indirrectly bc you had to burn too many resources to answer it).  If you're ok with that then I would say leave out Trygon, but I find that he is worth running for that, and other reasons.  Currently I have 2 maindeck and 1 boarded.

I have to be in complete agreement with Harlequin here. Trygon, more than any other card I've encountered is the biggest boon against Shop players. He's a clock that can hit for 3 (with exalted) in the air a turn (and sometimes more if you have more Pridemage/Hierarch on the table) and he slowly picks away the entire board of a shop player. I think his being 3 CMC is key as most Shop players can't really set Chalice @3 at all (whether it is that they don't get the mana fast enough or too many of their weapons are CMD 3).

To any players doubting the power of Trygon I'd simply say to try him out as at least a 3 of in the SB. You'll not regret it. He single-handedly got me through 4 Shop decks en route to my 6th place finish at Stratfordbury. He was an MVP that day and I'm sure he's still relevant.

I think that anyone who is considering running a GWb build of this deck while still running Hierarch needs to reconsider the efficiency of that decision.

Cards that this deck runs that are entirely underrated are the aforementioned Predator and Daze.

On Daze- I cannot repeat enough just how good this card is right now. I'd say that the only matchup it is not good against is Ichorid and perhaps the Fish Mirror. Other than that it is amazing at hampering your opponent's progress. It is a psychological advantage to have it in your deck because two things will occur:

a) your opponent does not know you run it and walks in to it game 1.

b) your opponent knows you run it, but must play around it and it gives you incredible bluffing power. That bluffing power can grant you multiple Time Walks that you should never have been given. That is true power. Reactive cards like Daze are what Fish is all about and one of the reasons I refuse to cut blue, at present. Daze + FoW + Utility of Trygon and bonus of Ancestral + Meddling Mage is just too good.

[TopSecret]

Have any of you tried Aven Mimeomancer?

He is three mana,
but he flies with a serious clock,
takes care of Colossus and huge creatures,
and makes your Selkie into a 3/1 flyer.

It seems pretty strong to me.

[Guli]

I was wondering about the Mimeomancer. He can be used defensively and offensively. But I wasn't really lured to the card because of the 3cc and you have to wait a turn to see an effect. Also it works targeted. Not sure about the card. Could be a nice card against aggro.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Guli, he's actually more relevant with the Vials you sometimes run.

[Guli]

I can't see it, why would a 3cc creature that makes other creature 3/1 flying beaters be relevant with a vial version? Is it because vial lists use larger amounts of creatures? Sure it would be nice but I would not call the effect relevant. Vial needs creatures that come into play with tempo (effect).

[AmbivalentDuck]

It's more Vialing it out at EOT so the upkeep trigger is more likely to actually happen.  I'm not sure he's good, but he's certainly *better* with Vial than without.

[Guli]

Camille Brunel

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 meddling mage
3 trygon predator
3 tarmogoyf
4 force of will
3 daze
1 misdirection
1 ancestral recall
1 time wlk
4 null rod
2 hurkyl's recall
1 psionic blast
1 merchant scroll
4 stifle

SB :
2 swords to plowshares
2 umezawa's jitte
3 children of korlis
1 trygon predator
4 wheel of sun and moon
2 tormod's crypt
1 relic of progenitus

This list top 8'ed. It is very similar to the lists posted here. Echoing truth is replaced by a second Hurk Recall and the side has the interesting wheel. Also I see psionic blast.  Also the list packs 4x stifle. Harlequin is that your list?

[Neonico]

No, it's the result  of weeks of testings and tunings from the vintage paris "GT Team"
Designed more specifically for the Bazaar of Moxen III metagame, which was anticipated as drain heavy.

[Harlequin]

No, it's the result  of weeks of testings and tunings from the vintage paris "GT Team"
Designed more specifically for the Bazaar of Moxen III metagame, which was anticipated as drain heavy.

I'm normally not one to pump my own ego but - That Maindeck is IDENTICAL to my top-4 day2 Stratford list Right down to the Merchant scroll for psiblast plan, the 1 misdirrect, and the manabase!  On top of that the sideboard is Mindcensors -> Sun and Moon.  Results posted here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37654.0

So even if you had been testing for "weeks," my list was public almost 8 weeks ago!

Also in this thread, back a page or two...

Stormanimagus and I have been working on this deck for a week or two leading up to the event.  I regret not playing it day 1.  I played a similar list to Noah's On day 2 and made Top-4.

5 Fetchs
3 Trops
3 Tundra
1 Isand
3 Waste
1 Strip
3 MoxUGW
1 Lotus

4 Noble Hierrarch
4 Cold-eyed Selkie
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Trigon preditor

4 Force
4 Stifle
4 Null Rod
3 Daze

1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral
1 Timewalk
2 Hurkyls Recall
1 Misdirrection
1 Psionic Blast


==========
4 Children of Korlis
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic or Progenitus
3 Aven Mindcensors
2 Jitte
2 STP
1 Trygon Preditor #4


The biggest difference is the lack of Curse Catcher.  Curse catcher enhances the mana-denial theme, but I feel like he's too lack-luster in general.  Also I think he competes with Stifle.  I tried a new tack for the deck and decided to run an all blue instant mini-tool-box, supported by Merchant Scroll (hense the maindeck Psiblast over maindeck STP).  It definatly handled the way I wanted it to. 

[klu]

To give an example of what kind of deck can beat Drain decks... With other French players we tested the Selkie deck (designed mainly by Stormanimagus and Harlequin, thanks again to them)

don't worry, nobody took your deck for being his

[Deathknight]

To give an example of what kind of deck can beat Drain decks... With other French players we tested the Selkie deck (designed mainly by Stormanimagus and Harlequin, thanks again to them)

don't worry, nobody took your deck for being his

Thank you Klu.

We were looking for a Fish deck efficient against the expected meta in tis tournament and tested several versions of Noble Fishs starting from Stormanimagus decklist. We tryed different approaches (like putting Jotun in the main to enhance the Ichorid MU which was a real concern for us, Aven against TPS...), but ended with a similar list you Top8ed with. As we acknowledged it was the most efficient Fish deck for us.
We cited your two names in the different reports and forums as builders of this original (and as stated in the threads on metagame and new B&R, underplayed) concept, as well as thanked you at the start of each relevant article on the deck. Unfortunately, it's in French and I didn't have the time so far to translate the report to post it in this thread.

I will try to do it asap, as it could have an interest for US players as well. We didn't use Mage in the same way (Tinker was the primary target, followed by YWill). And Wheel is clearly the game winner against Ichorid. This MU results are enhanced above a 75%/25% post side.

After two tournaments results (a small one and the 351 players one), we really think that the build is quite optimal (Blast seems random at first, but helped against Confidants, Ichorid or when facing a wall of creatures and an opponent below 4 PV). We could add 2-3 Qasali Pridemage instead of 1 Blast and 2 Trygon (more Oath sideboards than a month ago), but that's all.

Once more and in English, thank you

[zabuza]

Hi everybody,

I´m going to play this deck in a really big tournament soon and i would like to improve it as much as as i can (if it´s possible, of course).

I was thinking that Qasali pridemage is a very interesting card in this deck but i´m not self confident in which are the cards that must leave the deck in order to have room for Qasalis(Because perhaps most suitable could be trygon but i would like to have at least a couple MD).

Well, i think this creature fits in this deck perfectly, is a 2/2 or 3/3 for WG that provides 5-9 exalted hability to goyfs and selkies and can be used to destroy lot of stuff like time vault, voltaic key, and all kind of artifacts and enchantments  if needed. (if you have null rod and qasali in play a tezzeret´s deck must answer both of them to combo out so this provides you enough time to kill)

The only problem is what cards can be removed from the deck in order to play the qasalis. A first aproximation (i´ve seen it in other side but i don´t remeber who designed it, so thanks to him/her) could be :

3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Creatures (19):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Meddling Mage
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Instants (15):
4 Force Of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Hurkyl’s Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

SB
3 Children Of Korlis
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Trygon Predator
3 Swords To Plowshares  or PTE 

But i´m not fully sure that is optimal. I´ve tested it a little by MWS  because work doesn´t leave me enough time to test more but I have some ideas/questions about it.

We don´t have any way to find hurkill´s to answer inkwell leviathan everybody is playing against fish, so only 2 hurkill´s couldn´t be enough but we don´t want to draw them in multiples and is a solution so the right way would be to have anything to look for it, but 1 merchant scroll, 1 mystical tutor  could not be enough and don´t have room for them.

Another topic is that we only have 4 hard counters because daze is really good at the begining of the game but sucks in middle game. Besides of that good players can play around daze so i would like to try using negate/misdirection or something like that, but the problem is that i´m not sure about it at all.

I don´t know if 4 stifle is the best option because usually we want to play Noble in the first turn so we haven´t open mana to cast stifle when the opponent is craking his fetch to search for a basic. After that they are not as useful as before. What do you think about it. 

thoughts? Ideas?

[Stormanimagus]

Hi everybody,

I´m going to play this deck in a really big tournament soon and i would like to improve it as much as as i can (if it´s possible, of course).

I was thinking that Qasali pridemage is a very interesting card in this deck but i´m not self confident in which are the cards that must leave the deck in order to have room for Qasalis(Because perhaps most suitable could be trygon but i would like to have at least a couple MD).

Well, i think this creature fits in this deck perfectly, is a 2/2 or 3/3 for WG that provides 5-9 exalted hability to goyfs and selkies and can be used to destroy lot of stuff like time vault, voltaic key, and all kind of artifacts and enchantments  if needed. (if you have null rod and qasali in play a tezzeret´s deck must answer both of them to combo out so this provides you enough time to kill)

The only problem is what cards can be removed from the deck in order to play the qasalis. A first aproximation (i´ve seen it in other side but i don´t remeber who designed it, so thanks to him/her) could be :

3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Creatures (19):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Meddling Mage
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Instants (15):
4 Force Of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Hurkyl’s Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

SB
3 Children Of Korlis
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Trygon Predator
3 Swords To Plowshares  or PTE 

But i´m not fully sure that is optimal. I´ve tested it a little by MWS  because work doesn´t leave me enough time to test more but I have some ideas/questions about it.

We don´t have any way to find hurkill´s to answer inkwell leviathan everybody is playing against fish, so only 2 hurkill´s couldn´t be enough but we don´t want to draw them in multiples and is a solution so the right way would be to have anything to look for it, but 1 merchant scroll, 1 mystical tutor  could not be enough and don´t have room for them.

Another topic is that we only have 4 hard counters because daze is really good at the begining of the game but sucks in middle game. Besides of that good players can play around daze so i would like to try using negate/misdirection or something like that, but the problem is that i´m not sure about it at all.

I don´t know if 4 stifle is the best option because usually we want to play Noble in the first turn so we haven´t open mana to cast stifle when the opponent is craking his fetch to search for a basic. After that they are not as useful as before. What do you think about it. 

thoughts? Ideas?

Seems pretty ideal. Who designed this deck again? He/she must of really had something.

Anyway, yeah, I think the list is solid, but I'm starting to think I may have been wrong on Merchant Scroll and that maybe it deserves consideration again. I also think that Jotun Grunt may indeed be too slow for Ichorid. What I might do to the list is this:

- 1 Hurkyl's
- 1 Stifle

+ 1 Scroll
+ 1 Misdirection

SB I would definitely mess with a bit

Something like:

-3 Jotun Grunt
-1 ??
+4 Wheel Of Sun and Moon/T. Crypt/Relic Of Progenitus

[the boogie man]

What about something like

-1 pridemage/mage
-1 stifle/daze
-1 hurkyl's

+1 merchant scroll
+1 Mystical
+1 Brainstorm

?
 There might even be enough wizards to potentially include voidmage, which might be sick against control.

[Stormanimagus]

Hey all, so it's been a little while since I've posted in this, my baby of a thread. GUW Hierarch Variants are near and dear to my heart as it is now the first deck I've ever really performed well with, but I feel the archetype needs to stay ahead of the curve and people will figure out your little tricks quite quickly if you don't move forward. A card that has intrigued me of late as rife for abusing is Wargate. The card reads:

Wargate

Card type: Sorcery

Casting cost: X 

Card text:
Search your library for a permanent card with converted mana cost X or less, put it into play, then shuffle your library.

This card seems like it could be amazing in a Gush Shell for searching out Fastbond + Crucible Of Worlds for a lot a shenanigans early, but I also think it could be used in Fish for Utility. Assuming the DCI comes around and unrestricts Gush, I have a possible combining of those two strategies in to a sort of Wargate Aggro deck that shares many cards with my Selkie-Strike deck. The deck is missing key components like Crop Rotation cause I can't really find the deck space, but I don't think this sort of idea needs a ton of Tutors as the combo Finish isn't necessary for winning the game. Aight, here goes a stab in the dark:

Land (16):
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Island
1 Strip Mine
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Nomad Stadium

Artifacts (9):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod
1 Crucible Of Worlds

Creatures (13):
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Meddling Mage
1 Tarmogoyf
2 Cold-Eyed Selkie
1 Aven Mindcensor

Sorceries (6):
4 Wargate
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder

Instants (13):
4 Force Of Will
4 Gush
4 Daze
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Brainstorm

Enchantments (1):
1 Fastbond

SB
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
2 Cold-Eyed Selkie
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Lorescale Coatl
1 Regrowth
1 Children Of Korlis
3 Relic Of Progenitus
3 Tormod’s Crypt

Thoughts on this pile? Ideas for improvement?

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Wouldn't Black be more efficient with the Gush-bond engine? The Black tutors are cheaper than Wargate and...I just think Gush will just end up back in GAT or some kind of new Lorescale Coatl deck in terms of its use in aggro-control. Looks like you would just be diluting 2 good decks (your Selkie-Strike+TurboGush) into, well, as you put it, a pile. I just don't think there is enough synergy between the 2 strategies for it to be consistant. Does it play out differently in testing? I'd be very interested in knowing if you got it to work out even in just goldfishing.

[Stormanimagus]

Hey all. I saw someone mention Rootwater Thief on another Fish thread as a way to combat Vault/Key in the current Metagame. Honestly the card has been very much off my radar for a while, but it seems like it could be effective in the current metagame. Thoughts on finding a way to squeeze some in to the Noble Selkie-Strike?

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Hey all. I saw someone mention Rootwater Thief on another Fish thread as a way to combat Vault/Key in the current Metagame. Honestly the card has been very much off my radar for a while, but it seems like it could be effective in the current metagame. Thoughts on finding a way to squeeze some in to the Noble Selkie-Strike?

Just my thoughts on the card in general:

As a TPS player and Fish player, I can say that I've never been very fond of Meddling Mage.  The reasons why have already been outlined, namely that it doesn't really do enough to disrupt TPS' plan to warrant the two mana.  Sometimes it's a bomb if you get lucky (they draw/are holding a bunch of Rituals), but oftentimes it does absolutely nothing as well.  Especially nowadays, I'd rather run something like Rootwater Thief.  Unless they're going to win the next turn, it's a horrifying thing to look at from TPS' perspective.  If you are "Fish"-ing properly, you should be able to slow them down enough most of the time to allow Thief to beat once or twice.  Not to mention it's great at removing Time Vaults, which really should be Fish's main concern right now anyway.

Well if I were running TPS I'd be infinitely more concerned with Meddling Mage with a good name on it compared to Rootwater Thief. It takes at least 2 connections with Thief to RFG most TPS deck's win conditions (assuming only Inkwell+1xTendrils) and basically it'll tie up your mana for 3 turns. I'd be extremely happy to see turn 1 Rootwater even if you were on the play. It gives me 2 turns to either cast Tinker, Win, or Tutor for Tendrils and have it sit in my hand until I'm ready to win. Unless I kept a seriously sub-par hand then that should be no problem. Not to mention the longer you wait to actually cast Rootwater, the longer I'll have had to either get removal or the gas I need to win. Mage requires a lot of skill in both deck building and actual play to use properly, but it definitely pays off big time. In Fish your spells either need to affect the game immediately or have some ridiculously powerful effect that makes it worth waiting a turn. I don't really consider a 1 mana borderline unplayed card (Extract) worth waiting an extra turn for.

That doesn't even count if I just happen to be holding Tendrils or Inkwell. I could probably tutor for Academy and hardcast Inkwell before you get another lock piece down unless you opened with Lotus or something. TPS is resilient enough to punch through wins if you waste time with it, and the only time Rootwater Thief should ever work is if you're already miles ahead.

The gist of it is if you can connect at least twice (at least 3-4 times against most Tezz decks) with a 2-mana sorcery that does nothing by itself the turn you cast it then it may as well be a beatstick and you may as well take their life total to 0.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Ignore the 4 mana and summoning sickness for a moment and ask if Extract itself is playable.  In many ways, Extract on Tinker is strictly better than Meddling Mage on Tinker.  Nobody runs Burning Wish, so for W less, there is no longer any possibility that your opponent can play Tinker that game unless it's already in hand.  Even if it is, you can take the Tinker target that's situationally better.  You lose the 2/2 body, but gain a guarantee that the restricted card of your choice *cannot* be played by your opponent that game.

Meddling Mage is nice and all, but I find Extirpate better on unrestricted cards (ever hit Gush with Extirpate in the Gro mirror?) and Extract better on restricted cards.  The power of Mage is that it's not limitted to either class of cards and thus far more flexible, and it can beat for 2.

[Guli]

Meddling Mage is nice and all, but I find Extirpate better on unrestricted cards (ever hit Gush with Extirpate in the Gro mirror?) and Extract better on restricted cards.  The power of Mage is that it's not limitted to either class of cards and thus far more flexible, and it can beat for 2.

I think Meddling Mage would work well with those cards. You take a good look at their deck, this also means you know what they are holding more or less. You get a good idea of what they are playing making it easier to name a card with mage.

But extract more a silver bullet than anything else.

What I CAN see work (possible) is a deck with extract, hide/seek and extirpates combined with Meddling Mage. At least then you have good chances against dredge and shop as well while keeping the extract effects present. A lot of colors though.

[Stormanimagus]

So, it's been a while since my last post here, but life gets busy and you'll have to forgive me. I am utterly shocked by some recent tournament reports. First let me link you to them!

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38116.0

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38117.0

2 Fish lists make Top 8 at TMC Open
3 Make Top 8 at Antwerp!

What's going on here? Have I helped to spawn a monster? or is it just that Fish IS, in fact addressing the Tezzeret menace in the metagame?

I have heard from many Vintage players on these forums lately that the format has become far more about Tempo and less about "The big turn" and fighting over resolving a huge draw spell. I couldn't agree more and this is why I feel that Fish is making a comeback right now. The ability to deny the opponent mana while giving him a clock and forcing him to tutor up answers to your answers is a powerful strategy against streamlined control decks like Tezzeret, and an even better strategy against Remora decks where Remora basically becomes a dead card.

Against Remora decks you can basically drop a Pridemage or Goyf, and then Remora becomes a Standstill in your favor that does nothing but cost the opponent mana while they get pinged every turn for 3,4,5, or 6 life.

Against Tezzeret decks you can drop some of the best hate around in Null Rod while slamming down other disruption
(FoW, Daze, MM if you run them or other things like Mindcensor if you run that) and applying a lot of damage pressure to them through Exalted and Tarmogoyf.

Against Stax you can run Kataki and/or Noble Hierarch and either a)

Play right through their silly mana-denial strategy by just. . . umm. . . having mana!

or b)

Deny them their engines/mana with cards like MM, Kataki, Wasteland etc.,

Everyone thinks Shops are a bad matchup for Fish, but I whole-heartedly disagree.

The only gaping hole for Fish right now in the current Metagame is:

Ichorid

And, to a lesser extent,
Storm Combo, and Elves Combo.

Ichorid is played a lot so you simply need to devote 6-8 SB slots and hope for the best IMO and Storm Combo + Elves Combo are not played a lot (though TMC tourney report begs to differ) and the Storm Match up should be relatively competitive.

SOOOO, what's changed? Well I think the answer is simple. Fish can now do more things at once effectively. It can draw lots of cards while protecting its manabase (ex. Noble + Selkie). It can disrupt other mana-bases while shutting off combos (Null Rod) and, most importantly, it nows has good "clock" cards that are synergistic pieces of hate (Qasali Pridemage followed by Tarmogoyf is often stupid good for ending games quickly).

I'm excited to see where Fish goes in the near future, and hope to see more good pilots taking this to large Vintage events. Long Live Fish and *cough cough* Storm metagames!

Peace,

-Storm

[Stormanimagus]

So hey all! I think the golden age for this deck may be yet to come. With TfK restricted and Shop decks given a boost I sense that Fish is really gonna have it made for a while. I especially think that Noble Hierarch variants are going to be really really good in the new metagame. I am sad to see that combo is not being given much love, but I'm not going to be stupid and bring combo to a tournament (perhaps TPS at some point, but that's more just to see if it can be viable in this metagame and I certainly wouldn't bring it to a BIG tournament) when I have this monster to toy around with.

I'm curious to know if people think that dropping Stifle for Aven Mindcensors MD is a good idea? Does that make the deck too 3-drop heavy? Now that Strip Lock may become more common is that a problem?

[zeus-online]

I think dropping the stifles is a great idea, i was never a fan of that card in any deck

I wouldn't go above 3 mindcensors though...And i don't see the mana cost as a problem, i find that i often have 3 mana available turn 2 thanks to hierach and moxen.

Another card i could see being cut is meddling mage, not all of them, just 1 or 2.

Maybe a creature base like:

4 Hierarch
4 Qasali (Amazing!)
4 Selkies
3 Meddling
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Mindcensor

If stax becomes popular the deck could probably fit in a few trygons in addition to the qasali's. Adding another island could also be a good idea. (Although i must admit that i usually fetch out nonbasics even against wasteland decks)

[Harlequin]

I'm curious to know if people think that dropping Stifle for Aven Mindcensors MD is a good idea?

I think dropping the stifles is a great idea, i was never a fan of that card in any deck

You guys are insane!!  Stifle is absolutly required and/or better now that decks have more access to stripmine.  Stifle is DIRRECT defense against stripmine and wasteland.  That's why stifle is so good, in blue matches its denial in the form of stopping fetches, in the 5c match its defense against wasteland.

Meddling Mage is problable the card to remove as more enigine cards get restricted the power of Mage deminishes.   The question is - what is the value of Selkie (the card) if more decks are considering going islandless?

[zeus-online]

Honestly, going land, crop rotation, strip mine seems rather bad without having a crucible, so aslong as crucible does not hit that play does not seem scary. Also against this particular deck i fail to see how strip mine is any worse then wasteland?
Another fun thing would be to mindcensor in response to crop rotation, but that's probably just a dream!

I've honestly never liked stifle, the best thing it's ever done for me is to pitch to force. I rarely have the mana to play it in the early turns as i'm busy playing threats, and in the later turns it's mostly just DEAD.