Noble Fish: GUW variants here!

[Guli]

I like this card, but I think its tough to main deck.  I wouldn't play this over Cage, I don't think. 

I have a Vintage Maverick deck sitting in my deck file, though, and this fits in perfectly there.

I think the card is playable in a 4 x GSZ style toolbox approach and featuring 1 maindeck along with other disrupto-bear singletons that cumulatively work together to bury the opponent deeper and deeper into a hole. That way you minimize the weakening of the deck to the workshop menace -- GSZ can always be used to grab heirarch or kataki or pridemage in the workshop matchup.

This is an idea I will explore, thanks for the insight. I missed the GSZ synergy (haven't been using the card lately). Kataki is not a GSZ target though, sadly

[ramrodjon]

I am very excited from what I've seen from the new set.  There should be plenty of Vintage options to consider and casual/EDH gems.  As Mr. Noble stated, the Militant and the Familiar caught my eye and have been added to my loooooong list of Fish-able cards.  Any thoughts on the UW or WG Charms?  If I had to lean one way, the WG looks better in Fish (or Bears/Maverick).  That's just my opinion, though.

[psyburat]

If there was a tournament tomorrow, this is what I'd play:

MD:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Trygon Predator
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Vendilion Clique
 
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Mental Misstep
3 Path to Exile
3 Stony Silence
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
 
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Black Lotus
1 Island
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine
 
SB:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Serenity
3 Rest in Peace
2 Nature's Claim
1 Mental Misstep
1 Path to Exile

I doubt I'll get the chance to play again this year, so I figured I'd share my RtR configuration so that someone may profit from it.  Thoughts?

[ramrodjon]

I was able to test the Deathrite Shaman just a little in a Jund list against Gush, and it proved very versatile.  I assume in the Noble Fish list, he helps accel mana, so I can see the cut of 1 Hierarch (but losing exalted seems like it could hurt).  One thing I noticed when using DRS with Goyf and Ooze, was they were all a bit tricky to get what I wanted out of each of them.  If I was losing life, and wanted to exile a creature either with Ooze or DRS, I sometimes made my Goyf smaller in the process.  There is probably a fine balance and I'd have to test it more to see where that shakes out.  Also, the RIP and Cages from the board are coming in versus Dredge (I assume) then Goyf's, Shaman, and Ooze all seem like there would be a similar awkward interaction.  I could be wrong, and definitely speaking without much testing, just card observations.  I've rarely come across a Noble Fish deck I did not like, so this should be no exception!  I like the Misstep AND Daze split, should help combat the grossly powerful and annoying 1cc spells UBX runs, and also give you a chance at stopping an Oath or Shop piece.  Well done.

[StanleyAugust]

I was able to test the Deathrite Shaman just a little in a Jund list against Gush, and it proved very versatile.  I assume in the Noble Fish list, he helps accel mana, so I can see the cut of 1 Hierarch (but losing exalted seems like it could hurt).  One thing I noticed when using DRS with Goyf and Ooze, was they were all a bit tricky to get what I wanted out of each of them.  If I was losing life, and wanted to exile a creature either with Ooze or DRS, I sometimes made my Goyf smaller in the process.  There is probably a fine balance and I'd have to test it more to see where that shakes out.  Also, the RIP and Cages from the board are coming in versus Dredge (I assume) then Goyf's, Shaman, and Ooze all seem like there would be a similar awkward interaction.  I could be wrong, and definitely speaking without much testing, just card observations.  I've rarely come across a Noble Fish deck I did not like, so this should be no exception!  I like the Misstep AND Daze split, should help combat the grossly powerful and annoying 1cc spells UBX runs, and also give you a chance at stopping an Oath or Shop piece.  Well done.

I agree with you assesment of the combination of DRS, Ooze, RIP and Cage. Having all four in your build is way too much. Three is probably too much as well (especially if RIP is one of them, which it should be).

[Stormanimagus]

Having to side out Goyfs when you side in RIPs to accommodate the RIPs seems to me like evidence that you shouldn't be running Goyfs. Since I'm not sure what Noble Fish would be running in lieu of Goyfs I think the conclusion is that Noble Fish isn't a great choice right now. I've been testing a rainbow list with Humans and 4 Cavern of Souls that runs Mayor of Avabruck as its "Finisher" and I think that list has much more synergy and metagame relevance right now. Oh, and RIP works just fine in that deck. I think Noble Fish is honestly sort of outmoded and outclassed by this deck at the moment. It pains me to say this as one of the founding developers of Noble Fish, but I just don't think it is a super powerful choice for the Meta right now. Also, it should be noted that the 5-C human list runs full mox acceleration. I really think that the only decks that compete with Shops are ones with full accel and my human list is no exception. Just my 2 cents.

-Storm

[StanleyAugust]

Having to side out Goyfs when you side in RIPs to accommodate the RIPs seems to me like evidence that you shouldn't be running Goyfs. Since I'm not sure what Noble Fish would be running in lieu of Goyfs I think the conclusion is that Noble Fish isn't a great choice right now. I've been testing a rainbow list with Humans and 4 Cavern of Souls that runs Mayor of Avabruck as its "Finisher" and I think that list has much more synergy and metagame relevance right now. Oh, and RIP works just fine in that deck. I think Noble Fish is honestly sort of outmoded and outclassed by this deck at the moment. It pains me to say this as one of the founding developers of Noble Fish, but I just don't think it is a super powerful choice for the Meta right now. Also, it should be noted that the 5-C human list runs full mox acceleration. I really think that the only decks that compete with Shops are ones with full accel and my human list is no exception. Just my 2 cents.

-Storm

Would you mind sharing your list? Perhaps in another thread?

[Guli]

Having to side out Goyfs when you side in RIPs to accommodate the RIPs seems to me like evidence that you shouldn't be running Goyfs. Since I'm not sure what Noble Fish would be running in lieu of Goyfs I think the conclusion is that Noble Fish isn't a great choice right now. I've been testing a rainbow list with Humans and 4 Cavern of Souls that runs Mayor of Avabruck as its "Finisher" and I think that list has much more synergy and metagame relevance right now. Oh, and RIP works just fine in that deck. I think Noble Fish is honestly sort of outmoded and outclassed by this deck at the moment. It pains me to say this as one of the founding developers of Noble Fish, but I just don't think it is a super powerful choice for the Meta right now. Also, it should be noted that the 5-C human list runs full mox acceleration. I really think that the only decks that compete with Shops are ones with full accel and my human list is no exception. Just my 2 cents.

-Storm

Would you mind sharing your list? Perhaps in another thread?

I am the designer and brain behind the new Human Cavern archetype. The innovation of Mayor was done by me months ago and it slowly got adpoted by a lot other online players. Storm just recently took up my idea's and started testing with us, and he liked the synergies. So far I have seen him do well with the archetype. The cool part is that the deck can still go many directions but has a returning core shell:
Noble, Mayor, Dark Confidant, Thalia, Wasteland, Strip Mine, Cavern of Souls AND Phyrexian Revoker

A lot of human and non-human cards, lands, enchantments and artifacts has been tested maindeck and sideboard.

There is obviously no harm of seeing the specific direction Storm went with the archetype and discussing/criticizing card choices.

I think this new archetype I innovated IS how the new Noble Fish decks should look like. The deck has the flexibility of being able to adapt to any meta game. Just add good cards making good meta choices in addition to the shell above.

Possible cards (main and/or sideboard):
Stun Sniper
Fiend Hunter
Mangara of Corondo
Jitte
Null Rod
Stony Silence
Chalice of the Void
Rest in Peace
Hermit Druid (with Angel of Glory's Rise - Dread Return)
Grafdigger's Cage
Grand Abolisher
True Believer
Mental Misstep
Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Phantasmal Image
Glowrider
Grand Arbiter Augustin
Captain Sissay
Karakas
Ghost Quarter
Stoneforge Mystic
Gorilla Shaman
Zealous Conscripts
Leonin Arbiter
Shardless Agent
Deathrite Shaman
Sol Ring/Mana crypt (full acceleration is an option and is currently being used by all testers)
Ancient Tomb
Devout Chaplain
Kataki
...

The card choices and colors being used obviously will affect the mana base. Usually we just go 4-5 color and City of Brass is a staple. Glimmervoid and Gemstone Mines are also used to support many colors. I did test 3 colors with fetchland mana base. That works too if you want that. The main principle of the deck is to slow the game down with mana denial (spheres, mox killers and wastelands) and make Mayor count. Against decks that can't play multiple spells a turn every turn, Mayor will be a bomb anyway. These are mostly Aggro decks, workshop included. But Workshop does require a more targeted approach. I have this issue with 'whoever wins the roll wins'. Usually the deck can still win against a turn 1 Golem with full acceleration, but if they drop a chalice alongside that Golem it is very hard. So I am now testing new avenues to combat this problem.

Against blue control you are happy with Caverns and Spheres. The deck can win through multiple bolts or other removal by smart play and bear pressure.

I have intentions to write a primer on the Human Cavern design, but I am still waiting for more results.

[psyburat]

I was able to test the Deathrite Shaman just a little in a Jund list against Gush, and it proved very versatile.  I assume in the Noble Fish list, he helps accel mana, so I can see the cut of 1 Hierarch (but losing exalted seems like it could hurt).  One thing I noticed when using DRS with Goyf and Ooze, was they were all a bit tricky to get what I wanted out of each of them.  If I was losing life, and wanted to exile a creature either with Ooze or DRS, I sometimes made my Goyf smaller in the process.  There is probably a fine balance and I'd have to test it more to see where that shakes out.  Also, the RIP and Cages from the board are coming in versus Dredge (I assume) then Goyf's, Shaman, and Ooze all seem like there would be a similar awkward interaction.  I could be wrong, and definitely speaking without much testing, just card observations.  I've rarely come across a Noble Fish deck I did not like, so this should be no exception!  I like the Misstep AND Daze split, should help combat the grossly powerful and annoying 1cc spells UBX runs, and also give you a chance at stopping an Oath or Shop piece.  Well done.

The inclusion of Deathrite Shaman I'm treating less as cutting one Noble Hierarch as much as I am substituting one for two of a different variety.  I don't run Scavenging Ooze in this version as I also agree that there can be too much of a good thing in graveyard hate, but the interaction between Rest in Peace and both Tarmogoyf and Deathrite Shaman gets tricky.  Tarmogoyf is a straight swap with Rest in Peace against Dredge.  Deathrite, however, gets to stick around, even if he gets nerfed into a 1/2 vanilla after Rest in Peace hits.  The line of play revolving around turn 1 Deathrite Shaman/Noble Hierarch, turn 2 Wasteland/Strip Mine their land of choice and play a Rest in Peace is pretty strong, strong enough to hinder yourself even.  I've played out Moxen to cast Stony Silence before, and for the sake of tempo sometimes you'll have to make suboptimal plays as they exist in a vacuum.

Thank you for your positive words as well, and I hope to see you soon Jon!

Having to side out Goyfs when you side in RIPs to accommodate the RIPs seems to me like evidence that you shouldn't be running Goyfs.

I only bring in Rest in Peace against Dredge, and I'm more than happy to swap a non-disruptive creature for a haymaker against the deck.  Tarmogoyf as a 3/4 is good enough against Workshops as well as the blue decks.  I've brought his number down a notch in order to emphasize Trygon Predator, but you could just swap the miser's Vendilion Clique and run the 4th Tarmogoyf.

We don't cut Stony Silence from the deck just because it has a dead matchup either, and statistically it has more dead matchups than Tarmogoyf.

I heard you're coming back to New York, Noah, and I hope to see you soon.

[psyburat]

With a lull in examinations I decided to tweet about what an anti-Workshop build of Noble Fish would look like.  It is intented to be competitive, and although I could have included cards like Kataki or Serenity in the maindeck or sideboard, I felt as though a heavily-metagamed deck should still have game against the rest of the field (sans Dredge, but that'll always be the boogeyman).  From @psyburat:

MD:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Meddling Mage
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Trygon Predator

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Black Lotus
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine

SB:
4 Mental Misstep
4 Path to Exile
4 Rest in Peace
3 Cavern of Souls

I included a sideboard to highlight what archetypes you may want to keep in mind beyond Workshop-fueled decks, but this 75 is a starting point and by no means a finished product.

[Guli]

I would like to see 1 Edric and 1 Selkie in that list. 2 slots that will give you a lot of gass with 8 exalted and relatively high creature count (and cheap creatures)

[Grand Inquisitor]

From @psyburat:

I would like to see 1 Edric and 1 Selkie in that list.

I'm curious too.  Why go with 4x GSZ if you're choices are going to be so limited?  This list looks especially weak to Tinker>BSC, is that deliberate?

[bluemage55]

This list looks especially weak to Tinker>BSC, is that deliberate?

This.  Where's StP?  Also, Null Rod?

[Guli]

I would Suggest

-4 Daze
-1 GSZ

+ 1 Edric
+ 1 Selkie
+ 1 Steal Sabotage
+ 2 Stp

[psyburat]

Thank you everyone for contributing to this discussion!  I will continue to post more unfinished, untested decks in the future if it can facilitate this level of activity.  Onto the questions!

Why go with 4x GSZ if you're choices are going to be so limited?

It treats Green Sun's Zenith as a source of redundancy rather than a toolbox card.  Make changes as you deem necessary.

This list looks especially weak to Tinker>BSC, is that deliberate?

Yes.  As I stated, this is an Anti-Workshop build, not an Anti-Blightsteel build.

Where's StP?  Also, Null Rod?

Path to Exile is in the sideboard to serve a similar function.  Stony Silence has been omitted since, as an Anti-Workshop variant of the deck, having your Moxen is more profitable than shutting down theirs due to the strength of Green Sun's Zenith for Trygon Predator and the strength of the rest of their mana (Ancient Tomb and Mishra's Workshop sidestepping Stony Silence gracefully).

[ramrodjon]

Great idea, Mike.  I wouldn't mind seeing a few different variations of Noble Fish, specifically tuned to fight popular/successful decks (like you've done here).  I think it would help generate ideas and technology that people may have missed and generate some healthy discussion.  Personally, I'd like to see more of an anti-blue control list that can still hang with Shops, Dredge, and Oath post-board.  Storm and Burning Wish has been picking up, and I've had a time of it trying to crack that nut in testing.  Basically, by turn 2-3 you are facing Goblins, and usually too many to account for.  I may just have to try running 4 Ethersworn Canonist, 4 Cavern of Souls, 4 Flusterstorms, and 4 Mindbreak Trap, then lose to everything that isn't Storm or Broken Blue!  I think previous versions of Noble Fish were strong against Dredge, but an updated anti-Dredge list could also be useful here. 

[Gangles]

Bored and work and thought I'd just sort of mentally vomit a deck list out here.  Haven't had a chance to play vintage in a while so this could very well just be weak to everything.  Stalker+Exalted / Pike seems like it could be a think though?

4 Noble H.
4 Pridemage
4 Meddling Mage
4 Invisible Stalker

2 Jace TMS
2 Runechanter Pike

4 Daze
4 Force
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timewalk
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Visions
3 Path
3 Misstep / Steel Sabotage (a mix or either / or depending)

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Black Lotus
1 Island
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine

[LSD25]

seems like youre douling down on stalker as the win con, but it doesnt hate on anything... and stalker only seems relevant with pike.  think ooze/trygon/selkie are all better choices... but testing could prove me wrong

[Euthyphro]

I played the following list a few weeks ago in NJ to a top 8 finish.

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Time Walk
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Meddling Mage
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Trygon Predator
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Path to Exile

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Strip Mine
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland

SB:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Mental Misstep
3 Rest in Peace
4 Serenity

Basically I took Mike Noble's anti shops list from a few posts above, and tweeked it to make it a little more generic. 

Deathrite Shaman was great, if I were to play the list again I'd want to up it to 3. 

I didn't really miss Null Rod/Stony Silence at all.  I think the higher likelihood of getting a Trygon out helps here.

I lost in the top 8 to Landstill, which was quite disappointing because I feel like this should be a fairly good matchup.  I mulled to 5 in game 3, kept a mana light hand.  On turn 2 I Green Sun'd for zero to get Dryad Arbor for mana, he Forced, I Forced back then he Forced again.  I wasn't able to recover after that.

[ramrodjon]

Congrats on the Top 8!  So, did 4x Serenity feel sufficient enough to fight Workshops post-board, and other than the Landstill deck, what else did you face? 

[Euthyphro]

I only played Shops once, either Martello or Esprosso, not sure.  The Serenity's never came into play, as I recall both games he played an early sphere effect or two, but I came out from under them pretty quickly with multiple mana dorks.  In game 2 I wasted his Workshop and the sphere hurt him more than me.  I do think that with the addition of one more Deathrite Shaman, plus the Trygons, Qasali's and Serenity post-board, that it's enough against shops.

Before the top 8, I beat Landstill, Suicide Girls, shops as mentioned above, and I drew 1-1 against Bomberman.  The Landstill matchup went pretty easily as I recall, Suicide Girls and Bomberman were very close matches.

[vaughnbros]

A few questions about this list

How important is the islandwalk on selkie?  I feel like since your only running so many creatures you should probably go with Edric over it.  He gets you cards right away which is a huge advantage. 

Is serenity even necessary?  I don't see any dead or even bad cards in your main deck against workshops so you shouldn't really need a board for it.  More hate for another match up could make a big difference.

To me the list seems really solid outside of those two small things. So from what you've played of it are there any match ups you think need to improvement?

[Euthyphro]

Hey Lance, this is Bill btw

How important is the islandwalk on selkie?  I feel like since your only running so many creatures you should probably go with Edric over it.  He gets you cards right away which is a huge advantage. 

I think I'm starting to agree.  I was always big on Selkie, but he sucked against non-blue decks, whereas Edric would have drawn me a card or two. 

Is serenity even necessary?  I don't see any dead or even bad cards in your main deck against workshops so you shouldn't really need a board for it.  More hate for another match up could make a big difference.

Cutting Serenity sounds scary, but you're right that there's not that much I want to side out.  Cutting it to some number under 4 would be a possibility too.
 

To me the list seems really solid outside of those two small things. So from what you've played of it are there any match ups you think need to improvement?

I think more hate against anything blue would be where I could use the most help. 

[vaughnbros]

Yeh Bill I knew it was you since I recognized your decklist and the sexiness you were exuding in your original post.

To improve against blue Id say you probably have two main options (depending on space you might be able to do a combination of the two):
    1. Increase your counter package.  Some of the following:
           Flusterstorm,
           misdirection,
           spell pierce,
           Mana drain,
           Ect.
    2. Have more effective GSZ toolbox targets for them.  Some that come to mind:
           Thrun/Troll Ascetic should be much more effective beaters since they are essentially unkillable.
           Vexing Shusher pushes everything you have through counter magic including your own counter spells.
           Fauna Shaman allows you to pitch creatures to fetch up your entire playset of Meddling Mages and lock your opponent out.
           Knight of the Reliquary allows you to turn any one of your lands into a strip effect.
           There may be some other powerful exclusions from this list.
           I would probably leans towards Shusher and Shaman.

Goyf and as i said before serenity look like the easiest cuts to put new cards in.

[ramrodjon]

Nice job on another Fish performance, Bill!  I noticed some slight alterations from your last top8 list.  Did you prefer the 2 Fstorm / 2 MM split over straight Misstep from the board?  And did you ever miss the basic Island or get punished (ala Wasteland) for not having it?  One last thing: as a fellow Steelers fan, do we let the Ravens have their glory and hope the 49ers don't get their 6th title?

[Samoht]

vexing shusher is a real problem for blue decks, especially standstill.

[Euthyphro]

Nice job on another Fish performance, Bill!  I noticed some slight alterations from your last top8 list.  Did you prefer the 2 Fstorm / 2 MM split over straight Misstep from the board?  And did you ever miss the basic Island or get punished (ala Wasteland) for not having it?  One last thing: as a fellow Steelers fan, do we let the Ravens have their glory and hope the 49ers don't get their 6th title?

Jon, sorry I didn't reply sooner.  So I was completely rooting for the 9ers, disregarding the record tying in favor of my hatred for the Ravens.  A friend of mine cheered me up after, because he reminded me that in a year or two, the Ravens win will be mostly forgotten, but the Steelers will still hold the record

As for the changes, the Underground Sea has been great!  There has been a time here and there where I got hurt by Wasteland, but there have also been games where Deathrite won me the game all by herself.  I also feel that the Forest is the most important basic, as long as you keep that out you can often get your other mana from your dudes.

I also have been quite happy with the Flusterstorms.  Misstep was often a dead card, and Flusterstorm was able to do the same work plus some.

I played the same 75 at the recent Lancaster tournament to a first place finish!  My pairings were good, I played vs Shops 3 times in the Swiss and 2 more times in the Top 8. 

My other pairing in the Swiss (aside from an intentional draw) was against Dredge which I 2-0'd!  In game 1 I wasted my opponent's first and only Bazaar, got some beatdown going with a few Pridemages, and had Meddling Mage on Dread Return.  It was just enough.  Game 2 Rest in Peace won the day. 

Then in the miracle of miracles, I played vs Dredge again (different opponent) in the Semifinals, and 2-0'd again!  Similar story both games, with the addition of two Dazes two turns in a row to protect Rest in Peace.  I think I must have some crazy good karma, cause 2-0'ing Dredge with Fish twice in one tournament doesn't seem likely to ever happen again.

[ramrodjon]

Trust me, Bill, I felt dirty hoping for a Ravens win, but I was happy for a good game overall.  It sounds like the Force was with you last weekend!  2-0'ing Dredge twice in one day makes you a Fish Jedi!  I've been warming up to Serenity in testing and have been finding it useful against Oath decks as well.  I've always liked Mental Misstep in the past for it's disruption of 1cc dig/cantrip/broken spells, but Flusterstorm can really stop the blowouts.  Congratulations at Lancaster, hopefully I'll make one of those soon.  Perhaps I'll see you at TPsG Saturday?

[Euthyphro]

Trust me, Bill, I felt dirty hoping for a Ravens win, but I was happy for a good game overall.  It sounds like the Force was with you last weekend!  2-0'ing Dredge twice in one day makes you a Fish Jedi!  I've been warming up to Serenity in testing and have been finding it useful against Oath decks as well.  I've always liked Mental Misstep in the past for it's disruption of 1cc dig/cantrip/broken spells, but Flusterstorm can really stop the blowouts.  Congratulations at Lancaster, hopefully I'll make one of those soon.  Perhaps I'll see you at TPsG Saturday?

Yepper I'll be at TPsG.

Serenity convinced me 100% this past weekend.  I had it be strong in several games and it completely won me the last game against Shawn in the finals.  Completely turned the game around.  Wiped his board save for a land or two when I was staring down several creatures and lock pieces, let me win a turn or two later.

[Stormanimagus]

vexing shusher is a real problem for blue decks, especially standstill.

This is just blatantly wrong. It's too much of a mana investment. Heck, Cavern of Souls is a much better against landstill and they can still pretty easily play around it. If you think Vexing Shusher is any issue for that deck then you don't know that deck.

-Storm