Noble Fish: GUW variants here!

[iamjimpaine]

Just a random thought from pissing around with fish decks on MWS (so take it as you will), but decks running cold-eyed selkie and null rod work pretty well with two copies of rancor.  It's as cheap as it gets.  Drops the turn after selkie hits the table for only one mana.  Nets you at the absolute least two cards and two damage if it resolves, and subsequently is near-impossible to get rid of.  There's not a ton of enchantment hate out there.  It's a +2/0 pump to any other creature and actually has a silly symmetry with cursecatcher because it makes him even more valid than just sac'ing to counter or bouncing to ninja, and even if you do sac/bounce, rancor comes back to your hand to be played again. 

I've also had a ton of fun (in the "winning is fun" type of way) playing psionic blast as removal in UG and UGW fish.dec.  I know STP is cadillac when it comes to creature removal, but psionic blast is instant speed, blue, [less-so-than-stp-but-still] castable, hits Tez, kills about everything STP does, and shoots to the head for four (which STP doesn't).  Nobody ever sees it coming, and there is a slight degree of satisfaction that comes from having someone who is playing full-powered tier-1 pile tell you that psionic blast is not viable in t1 after you shoot them for four to the head for the win.

edit:  re-read the thread and saw someone already suggested rancor so I...  uh...  second the idea.

[Stormanimagus]

Just a random thought from pissing around with fish decks on MWS (so take it as you will), but decks running cold-eyed selkie and null rod work pretty well with two copies of rancor.  It's as cheap as it gets.  Drops the turn after selkie hits the table for only one mana.  Nets you at the absolute least two cards and two damage if it resolves, and subsequently is near-impossible to get rid of.  There's not a ton of enchantment hate out there.  It's a +2/0 pump to any other creature and actually has a silly symmetry with cursecatcher because it makes him even more valid than just sac'ing to counter or bouncing to ninja, and even if you do sac/bounce, rancor comes back to your hand to be played again. 

I've also had a ton of fun (in the "winning is fun" type of way) playing psionic blast as removal in UG and UGW fish.dec.  I know STP is cadillac when it comes to creature removal, but psionic blast is instant speed, blue, [less-so-than-stp-but-still] castable, hits Tez, kills about everything STP does, and shoots to the head for four (which STP doesn't).  Nobody ever sees it coming, and there is a slight degree of satisfaction that comes from having someone who is playing full-powered tier-1 pile tell you that psionic blast is not viable in t1 after you shoot them for four to the head for the win.

edit:  re-read the thread and saw someone already suggested rancor so I...  uh...  second the idea.

I'd try rancor over Psionic Blast solely because I already have a lot of critters hogging the 3-slot. I don't want to become too too 3 heavy (even if I am running 4 Noble Hierarch).

Here's the thing though. As I said way back you really want your creatures in Fish to be pulling double duty. Rancor is good. . . on Selkie. On other guys it simply adds to your clock by a couple damage a turn. Against Combo that 2 extra life will not matter and against Tezz it won't either as they'll just resolve Darksteel or Inkwell Leviathan and block you all day while waiting for their Time Vault Combo or they'll just race you. Don't misunderstand. I like rancor. It's a cool card. But I just don't see the games it would win me that I hadn't already been winning via drawing 2 cards a turn off exalted Selkies. What would you cut from my list to make room for Rancor? All the cards I play are pretty critical in a lot of very important matchups.

[AmbivalentDuck]

That is not a good enough reason to run Gaddock Teeg. Meddling Mage can shut down far more, including Tinker, Oath of Druids and Yawgmoth's Will, to name a few. It is a far more potent effect more often than not. Gaddock Teeg is a nice card, but is really too narrow IMHO.

He stops Tez, FoW, Tendrils, Massacre, and Ichy.  Sounds like a good start.  Note its success in Dawn of the Dead, too.

Cursecatcher is great in that matchup but it really doesn't do anything for against a large portion of the rest of the field. It was a good choice when Gush was big and Flash, but now it simply doesn't do enough.

Then why is Becker's BUG fish running it now?

[Stormanimagus]

That is not a good enough reason to run Gaddock Teeg. Meddling Mage can shut down far more, including Tinker, Oath of Druids and Yawgmoth's Will, to name a few. It is a far more potent effect more often than not. Gaddock Teeg is a nice card, but is really too narrow IMHO.

He stops Tez, FoW, Tendrils, Massacre, and Ichy.  Sounds like a good start.  Note its success in Dawn of the Dead, too.

Cursecatcher is great in that matchup but it really doesn't do anything for against a large portion of the rest of the field. It was a good choice when Gush was big and Flash, but now it simply doesn't do enough.

Then why is Becker's BUG fish running it now?

BUG Fish is a different Beast and doesn't have access to Aven Mindcensor or Meddling Mage. I'm sure that it'd be on the chopping block for Becker's Fish list if he was running GUW.

BTW, I'm not saying that Gaddock Teeg or Cursecatcher are bad cards. I just don't want to cut FoW from my deck as it is a very nice way to protect a Selkie- and stop turn 1-2 shenanigans from Storm decks.

It's a simple call: FoW? or Gaddock Teeg. I've had lists with both and have decided on FoW because I have a high enough Blue count in the deck and creatures I want to protect like Selkie or Trygon.

[Guli]

I have been thinking about cards like dimir, selkie and Cephalid Constable. Cards that need to connect. I think the Azorius Guildmage can be really handy especially if there is also instant removal like STP present.

Of course the Azorius Guildmage is not just there to tap creatures but also stops important win conditions in the meta like vault, tezz, grind, slaver. Also handy against bazaar, welder explosives, keg, old man, fetchlands, lavamancer, mog fanatic, strip/waste, Memory Jar, Vial,...

I am trying him out with my chrome moxes and I changed the colors to GUW. Azorius Guildmage deserves some discussion.

Shoot away!

Guli

[Mantis]

@FoW vs. Gaddock Teeg:
Wait, what? Is this actually a debate? Gaddock Teeg is very situational and might fix one problem in one particular matchup while FoW on the other solves any random problems that might occur. Force of Will also protects Selkie and ensures some good disruption if Selkie hits to ensure more hits. What does Gaddock Teeg do, stop FoW? If you manage to drop Gaddock Teeg then the opponent didn't have Force of Will anyway so it's a moot point. Against TPS you would much much rather have FoW anyway, there aren't too many cards that actually care about Teeg. I'll agree that he's probably better against Ichorid tough. It's kind of useless to point out all the cards that Teeg stops, as FoW stops everything.

Here's the thing though. As I said way back you really want your creatures in Fish to be pulling double duty. Rancor is good. . . on Selkie. On other guys it simply adds to your clock by a couple damage a turn. Against Combo that 2 extra life will not matter and against Tezz it won't either as they'll just resolve Darksteel or Inkwell Leviathan and block you all day while waiting for their Time Vault Combo or they'll just race you. Don't misunderstand. I like rancor. It's a cool card. But I just don't see the games it would win me that I hadn't already been winning via drawing 2 cards a turn off exalted Selkies. What would you cut from my list to make room for Rancor? All the cards I play are pretty critical in a lot of very important matchups.

Or they just bounce it and create a massive shift in tempo even if you do get to keep the Rancor (ie not in response to the Rancor coming on).

[Phele]

Very good find Guli! The Guildmage stops the Tez and Painter win conditions in just one card.

[Guli]

Rancor is strong. I suggest 3x Rancor. The trample matters against aggro. Stop being so defensive all the time. There is an answer to every card in this game but that doesn't mean that they will be holding that card when you cast rancor. And you can be smart and wait with rancor until they used their bounce or stp, or are tapped out.

This list I am trying is interesting. It is focused on the Cephalid Constable and Selkie. I would love tarm as well but I want to maximize the chances of getting at least one of them trough. Rancor/Azorious/Hierarch help me with that. And besides this deck wants 1 guy attacking. Might as well pump him up with rancors instead of sending tarm alongside to the battle. I did add the two Mages (meddling and azorious) They are very handy support units to keep you alive and help against bounce/removal OR stop win conditions.

Mana:

    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Black Lotus
    4 Tundra
    3 Flooded Strand
    1 Plains
    1 Island
    4 Tropical Island
    3 Windswept Heath
    1 Forest

Creature Base

    4 Azorius Guildmage
    4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
    4 Cephalid Constable
    4 Noble Hierarch
    4 Cursecatcher
Stuff:

    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    3 Null Rod
    3 Rancor
    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    3 Echoing Truth/Rushing River

NO SB AVAILABLE ATM

[Mantis]

Rancor is strong. I suggest 3x Rancor. The trample matters against aggro. Stop being so defensive all the time. There is an answer to every card in this game but that doesn't mean that they will be holding that card when you cast rancor. And you can be smart and wait with rancor until they used their bounce or stp, or are tapped out.

.
No but you are not holding Rancor AND Selkie AND get the Selkie to connect as well all the time. That said, you do solve that issue quite nicely by also adding Cephalid Constable to the mix on which Rancor is decent as well. The deck has some good synergy between the Constable/Selkie and the Azorius Guildmage as well, I could actually see this list being very decent. Personally I would cut the Rancors and put in some Null Rods or another disruptive component as that will be of bigger help letting the Selkie or Constable connect than Rancor.

[Guli]

The idea is to bounce/remove/tap your way through with rancor/selk OR constable depending on the match up and board situation. It is pretty one sided. This cost a lot of mana and tempo and if you really want it to succeed then you have to focus on the task. Get that beat through!! So that is why I am adding free counterspells like Force and Daze. Also to make the mages work you need mana, mana you draw from your lands and hierarch(s). I am hoping using the azorius as my walking rod in this case. It sounds logical and the colors do fit. You have guys that produce mana and give your creatures a boost. You have dudes that use that mana to give creatures evade and protect you against specific win conditions. I think rushing river might be strong in this kind of decks. Especially if you have the constable active.

[Stormanimagus]

The idea is to bounce/remove/tap your way through with rancor/selk OR constable depending on the match up and board situation. It is pretty one sided. This cost a lot of mana and tempo and if you really want it to succeed then you have to focus on the task. Get that beat through!! So that is why I am adding free counterspells like Force and Daze. Also to make the mages work you need mana, mana you draw from your lands and hierarch(s). I am hoping using the azorius as my walking rod in this case. It sounds logical and the colors do fit. You have guys that produce mana and give your creatures a boost. You have dudes that use that mana to give creatures evade and protect you against specific win conditions. I think rushing river might be strong in this kind of decks. Especially if you have the constable active.

That list is much improved from before Guli, but there is still a "weakest link" that I think needs to go. I think, sadly, it is Azorius Guildmage. The times where you draw him and you WOULD have liked Null Rod more are too many. He's just too slow and too mana intensive for Vintage. You do not want to have to leave 3 mana up on your opponent's turn when you'd rather be spending it on Selkies and Constables on your turn. I think if you made those Guildmages Rods your deck would be a lot better. Also, consider the fact that Rod really doesn't hurt you one bit as you are running Rancor over Jitte for Creature pump.

I could go in to more situational detail as to why Azorius Guildmage is bad, but I think you'll come to that conclusion if you test with it against the decks you think it'll shut down. It doesn't stop a Progenitus from killing you and it doesn't stop Triggered abilities the way Stifle can. You can only Tap 1 guy usually as 6 mana is really hard to keep up with Daze in your deck and 1 guy isn't always good enough in the Fish mirror.

My Two Cents. . .

[AmbivalentDuck]

Actually, the weakest link is starting to look like Noble Hierarch.  Your CMC's top out at 3!  While arguably better than Shuko, Hierarch does the same thing here.  And while I'm not advocating Shuko, it also lets you attack with more than one creature.

To address that, we have to acknowledge that the creature count is way high for a deck that only wants to be turning one creature sideways each turn.  Have we considered adding pitch counters and Remora?

[the boogie man]

I think that hierarchis really good. There seems to be a bunch of 3cc guys, and he lets you drop them t2, and makes them bigger. You don't always get rancor, and hierarch pumps selkie and constable without further investment. He also taps for every color you play.

azorius guildmage does seem rather weak, why not run rod and stifle?

I agree that you could probably cut a creature or 2, considering you usually only have 1 going at a time. perhaps 1 constable? Maybe not if the guildmages go. At least selkie has evasion. and 3 means you'll probably see one in your opening hand or soon thereafter anyway.

Also, are all 3 bounce spells necessary? why not run 1 and a mystical? That would open up some slots, too, and be better post side. It would also let you find ancestral or walk when you needed to. You already run 3 swords anyway.

And daze seems rather weak without rods or wastes.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Well if you're not going to run Null Rod why not run Jitte? Jitte dominates the aggro match and draws you 5 cards a turn with Selkie while being a clock in itself.

[Guli]

I think if you want selkie and Constable to connect you need to have versatile answers ready in main deck. You need the ability to clear the way. Maybe the STP can go out and we have to think more general as in just bounce anything they throw at you and shut it out with meddling mage. I also realized that with hierarch you don't need to be scared of attacking with 1 creature. You can attack as you please but if you are in a situation were attacking with selkie or constable would give you greater play then go for it. And mostly creatures die anyway. They block, get countered and bounced. Maybe STP can go to side to make room for Null Rod. Seems a good call.

The Azorius and bounce should clear the board. Azorius is nuts guys. He takes out Tezz/Vault decks on his own. By the way you don't have that many cards in hand with this deck unless your selkies start kicking, and when that happens it is most likely good game.

I suggest -3 STP and +4 Rod.

You don't have time for tutoring. You are happy when you draw 1 bounce and a second is welcome but not necessary. The deal must be sealed quickly. Another thing about the Azorius + Constable is that they create a soft lock with rancor/hierarch. Daze becomes stronger. That is why I like to have Null Rod as well.

YES NULL ROD IS A GOOD SUGGESTION. But not one I haven't considered myself. There is a catch. Your 1cc cards are getting on the low side.

Do not underestimate the power of rancor. People play with lions, the rancor is a lion with haste that comes back. It is clock, evasion and in this deck when it works out it is curiosity on pills. You do need to have a rather high creature count but that is ok. I really thought the hierarch was bad with lots of creatures but that is not the case. It just becomes more tactical which is good.

I think the bounce package with the Azorius and meddling fit in nicely. I also think that Force of Will and Daze belong in this deck and frankly you need BLUE in the deck.

+4 Null Rod (this is a correct call, I am pretty sure of this)
-3 STP (to the sideboard, there is sufficient bounce/tap to deal with aggro game 1)
-1 ? Maybe play with 3x Rod? It could be a mistake though
With Null Rod/Daze/Azorius Cursecatcher seems a natural add -Meddling Mage   + Cursecatcher

[Stormanimagus]

I think if you want selkie and Constable to connect you need to have versatile answers ready in main deck. You need the ability to clear the way. Maybe the STP can go out and we have to think more general as in just bounce anything they throw at you and shut it out with meddling mage. I also realized that with hierarch you don't need to be scared of attacking with 1 creature. You can attack as you please but if you are in a situation were attacking with selkie or constable would give you greater play then go for it. And mostly creatures die anyway. They block, get countered and bounced. Maybe STP can go to side to make room for Null Rod. Seems a good call.

The Azorius and bounce should clear the board. Azorius is nuts guys. He takes out Tezz/Vault decks on his own. By the way you don't have that many cards in hand with this deck unless your selkies start kicking, and when that happens it is most likely good game.

I suggest -3 STP and +4 Rod.

You don't have time for tutoring. You are happy when you draw 1 bounce and a second is welcome but not necessary. The deal must be sealed quickly. Another thing about the Azorius + Constable is that they create a soft lock with rancor/hierarch. Daze becomes stronger. That is why I like to have Null Rod as well.

YES NULL ROD IS A GOOD SUGGESTION. But not one I haven't considered myself. There is a catch. Your 1cc cards are getting on the low side.

Do not underestimate the power of rancor. People play with lions, the rancor is a lion with haste that comes back. It is clock, evasion and in this deck when it works out it is curiosity on pills. You do need to have a rather high creature count but that is ok. I really thought the hierarch was bad with lots of creatures but that is not the case. It just becomes more tactical which is good.

I think the bounce package with the Azorius and meddling fit in nicely. I also think that Force of Will and Daze belong in this deck and frankly you need BLUE in the deck.

+4 Null Rod (this is a correct call, I am pretty sure of this)
-3 STP (to the sideboard, there is sufficient bounce/tap to deal with aggro game 1)
-1 ? Maybe play with 3x Rod? It could be a mistake though

Guli. It's so funny. We always seem to agree on 90% of stuff regarding decks we design, but we can't quite agree on everything.

Azorius Guildmage is not a good card for Vintage Period. I don't even need to test with it to know this. It's abilities cost
TOO MUCH MANA. When so many things you do in this deck are at sorcery speed and are critical to victory you don't have 3 mana to spare on your opponent's turn very often. It does not stop Vault and Key combo as you'll have to keep 3 mana up every turn to and they'll just find a way to bounce it or Tinker for Inkwell Leviathan.

I understand it has many applications "in theory" but the cost of 5 mana to get that effect is not worth the tempo loss of having to leave mana up. If you want to stop Tezz shut down the deck's engine right at the source with cards like Null Rod. Waste + Stifle Mana disruption have obvious applications everywhere and Aven Mindcensor is amazing for stopping Tinker + Dude while also helping to stop tutors and fetches.

I'm going to post my list again and show you the only cards I'd sub out for Rancor:

Selkie-Strike

Land (18):
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library Of Alexandria 

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Creatures (24):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tarmogoyf      (Perhaps drop these for Rancor? Not sure but that could be done) 
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Trygon Predator
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Aven Mindcensor  (These could also be relegated to the SB for Rancor, but, again, not sure)

Instants (9):
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force Of Will
4 Stifle

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

SB
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
3 Kataki, War’s Wage
4 Path to Exile
4 Tormod’s Crypt

There you have it. Constable is certainly a cute card and becomes much better with Rancor, but I'm not sure where I'd fit it in at this point other than the SB. All The other cards seem too necessary and there are many matchups where an un-rancored Constable will never connect. Against Fish, for instance, Constable is hardly ever going to connect where Selkie may, due to evasion.

I like your ideas Guli, but some of them are bad IMHO, and I'm trying to point out which ones I think are those.

To recap:

Rancor = Best idea and I will test.

Constable = iffy idea, but I will try it in the SB

Azorius Guildmage = Ability is just too expensive and will not get the job done that you think it will. Bad Idea.

[Guli]

Guli. It's so funny. We always seem to agree on 90% of stuff regarding decks we design, but we can't quite agree on everything.

Well we aren't clones. And thank god we aren't 100% alike. That would be scary.

This deck doesn't cast a lot and doesn't draw a lot either. So you will have plenty of mana lying around. So far Azorius has been extremely good. On paper the hierarch doesn't look good either but in reality it surprised me immensely.

I have found myself in the next situation for a fair amount of times. Sitting on a Force and Daze. Azorius and Selkie/Constable. I was able to counter anything and also tap creatures AND do a mini stifle. It felt like I was in total control. And you can't sit around against selkie or constable. Terrible things happen when they connect.

Azorius is a very logical and strong add to the Hierarch/Selkie/Constable creature base. The Mage can be questioned but he seems to very synergistic as well with the bounce flying all over the place and to mess around with rituals/drains. Now that Null Rod is on the bandwagon I feel like the deck can be called viable and ready for the meta.

Azorius (since you really dislike him)

Without bounce and mana acceleration he wouldn't rock so much but in this specific deck you have them all. He is a solid answer to Tinker/DSC as well forgot to mention it above. I stated his functionality already. The drawback is that he is mana intensive, but man we are playing acceleration. What will you do with all the mana after turn 3? He solves many problems and he is blue too. Of course he costs mana, if he was cheaper in use he would be totally broken believe me.

Can't convince you man. Never was able to. We HAVE to disagree on something right? Otherwise there is no discussion or tension and then sir, we aren't philosophizing any longer and that would be sad. I like our relation just the way it is

I understand that you want azorius to directly effect the table. If you look at it that way then he looks expensive but he usually drops in when you can't get through and at that point you have mana and you can enjoy his abilities. Are you afraid he will lock your mana or something? He does beat for 3 while doing all that don't forget...

[Stormanimagus]

Guli. It's so funny. We always seem to agree on 90% of stuff regarding decks we design, but we can't quite agree on everything.

Well we aren't clones. And thank god we aren't 100% alike. That would be scary.

This deck doesn't cast a lot and doesn't draw a lot either. So you will have plenty of mana lying around. So far Azorius has been extremely good. On paper the hierarch doesn't look good either but in reality it surprised me immensely.

I have found myself in the next situation for a fair amount of times. Sitting on a Force and Daze. Azorius and Selkie/Constable. I was able to counter anything and also tap creatures AND do a mini stifle. It felt like I was in total control. And you can't sit around against selkie or constable. Terrible things happen when they connect.

Azorius is a very logical and strong add to the Hierarch/Selkie/Constable creature base. The Mage can be questioned but he seems to very synergistic as well with the bounce flying all over the place and to mess around with rituals/drains. Now that Null Rod is on the bandwagon I feel like the deck can be called viable and ready for the meta.

Azorius (since you really dislike him)

Without bounce and mana acceleration he wouldn't rock so much but in this specific deck you have them all. He is a solid answer to Tinker/DSC as well forgot to mention it above. I stated his functionality already. The drawback is that he is mana intensive, but man we are playing acceleration. What will you do with all the mana after turn 3? He solves many problems and he is blue too. Of course he costs mana, if he was cheaper in use he would be totally broken believe me.

Can't convince you man. Never was able to. We HAVE to disagree on something right? Otherwise there is no discussion or tension and then sir, we aren't philosophizing any longer and that would be sad. I like our relation just the way it is

I understand that you want azorius to directly effect the table. If you look at it that way then he looks expensive but he usually drops in when you can't get through and at that point you have mana and you can enjoy his abilities. Are you afraid he will lock your mana or something? He does beat for 3 while doing all that don't forget...

Actually he beats for 2 unless you have Hierarch on the table.

Heh. Of course I understand that we'll disagree on things  . To address a couple things.

When evaluating the utility of a card I look at the cards opponents play that it'll effect/ not effect. So let's do that:

Azorius Guildmage->

1. Doesn't necessarily stop Tinker-> Dude anymore. Inkwell Leviathan may replace Darksteel Colossus in many decks as Shroud is amazing against Chain Of Vapor, Hurkyl's Recall and Echoing Truth. A lot of decks run those bounce spells and Fish decks run STP or Path To Exile. Inkwell Leviathan is also pitchable to FoW so I'm already seeing decks run it. Your Guildmage will just sit there, useless, as your opponent Islandwalks you to death.

2. Oath Triggers + Progenitus. Again, a big weakness of Fish is Oath and Guildmage does nothing against Oath.

* What does that leave? Fish decks? Yes you can tap down their beaters, but we should have a decent Fish matchup because of Hierarch + Goyf or Hierarch + Rancor. I don't see that as being a tough matchup. Also, many of our creatures are 3 CMC so they can't be stolen via Threads. I'd rather have Path To Exile than Azorius Guildmage to shore up the Fish Matchup any day.

Perhaps he'll be good at stopping Welder, against a shop deck, but again, why not just kill the Welder with Path or STP?

I want to examine a comment of yours earlier too.

"This deck doesn't cast a lot and does't draw a lot either". In that case it should not be played in Vintage unless it is called Ichorid. Good decks cast spells and draw cards or they have a really good reason not to do one or the other (Ichorid doesn't cast spells, some MUD Shop decks don't really draw cards but lock the game down on turn 1 or 2).

Tell me how you think Azorius Guildmage would play out? Tell me HOW it beats Tezz? Tell me what it stops against TPS? If you ever want to use it to stop the one thing I think it is good for, fetch lands, then you have to spend 2U to do that and if you are going to spend that much mana why not just flash in an Aven Mindcensor and get a 2/1 Flying body for your trouble?

What activated (not triggered) abilities is it really that important to be able to repeatedly shut down?

Many Vintage decks don't even run creatures, or, if they do, 1-2 (Oath, TPS) and those can't be targeted by mage. Selkie should be connecting for this reason. Constable should even be connecting for this reason. The main reason either one would not is due to removal spells or bounce spells and. . . guess what? Guildmage does nothing against either.

I'm not trying to shoot down innovation here, but you need to offer a better explanation than "what will we do with that mana after turn 3?" The answer, btw, should hopefully be "dropping more creatures that lock down the board or the game".

Have you tested with the Mage? What have the interactions been like with him? Has he caused you to directly win a game that you wouldn't have won otherwise?

I could see the mage being useful in a meta that was more than 50% Fish decks, but that meta doesn't exist right now, and his effects are too narrow to warrant an inclusion for the second ability.

Peace,

Storm


P.S- I'd like to explain how Guildmage doesn't beat Vault + Key. Consider. . .

1.You drop a mage on turn 2 and they don't have Drain.

2.Turn 3 you drop a 3 drop and it does get drained. You try to force the drain, but they have FoW. You beat for 2.

3.On their turn they drop Tezzeret with 3 Drain Mana and fetch up Key.

4. Your turn you play nothing of consequence and beat for 2. You leave mana up for Guildmage

5. Their turn, they tutor Chain of Vapor with Merchant, Demonic, Mystical, Imperial or Vampiric. You can't counter as you used your FoW to protect the 3-drop and you haven't draw another + blue card.

6. Your turn you draw FoW but only have the 5 mana up to hard cast it instead of a card to pitch. You beat for 2 and leave 5 mana up.

7. On their turn they attemp to bounce the guildmage. Now you can either FoW their bounce, in which case they'll tutor up Vault and go infinite OR. . . you can let them bounce your mage and then they'll do the same thing.

Now, I illustrate this line of play in detail just to show you how Tezz will not really care about Guildmage. They are too fast and have too much disruption to allow you the mana to play threats + have 2U up to stop Vault. You are basically going to have a bear for (u/w,u/w) and that is not good enough against a deck that can beat you in soooo many ways like Tezz can. If, for some reason you do have heaps of mana to keep them locked while you drop threats then they'll just Tinker for Leviathan and race you.

I hope this example helps to illustrate my criticisms in a slightly more pointed manner.

[Troy_Costisick]

1. Doesn't necessarily stop Tinker-> Dude anymore. Inkwell Leviathan may replace Darksteel Colossus in many decks as Shroud is amazing against Chain Of Vapor, Hurkyl's Recall and Echoing Truth. A lot of decks run those bounce spells and Fish decks run STP or Path To Exile. Inkwell Leviathan is also pitchable to FoW so I'm already seeing decks run it. Your Guildmage will just sit there, useless, as your opponent Islandwalks you to death.

Shroud will not protect a creature against Hurkyl's recall.

[Stormanimagus]

1. Doesn't necessarily stop Tinker-> Dude anymore. Inkwell Leviathan may replace Darksteel Colossus in many decks as Shroud is amazing against Chain Of Vapor, Hurkyl's Recall and Echoing Truth. A lot of decks run those bounce spells and Fish decks run STP or Path To Exile. Inkwell Leviathan is also pitchable to FoW so I'm already seeing decks run it. Your Guildmage will just sit there, useless, as your opponent Islandwalks you to death.

Shroud will not protect a creature against Hurkyl's recall.

True, but I wasn't criticizing Hurkyl's. I was criticizing Azorius Guildmage .

[Troy_Costisick]

And I was pointing out that this quote:

Shroud is amazing against Chain Of Vapor, Hurkyl's Recall and Echoing Truth.

is untrue when it comes to Hurkyl's Recall.  I wasn't speaking about your thoughts on Guildmage.

[Guli]

4. Your turn you play nothing of consequence and beat for 2. You leave mana up for Guildmage

I ll beat the tezz instead. He can be attacked.

Azorius beats tezz mate.

Yea i have had games were Azorius won me games. Tapping a tarm and then beating for 2 with constable bouncing back stuff seal the deal.

Tezz on the opposite side. He doesn't want to tutor with tezz because I will counter the activation. Meanwhile I will attack tezz with my azorius. He has to bounce NOW or concede because if he can't win the game WITH tezz on board he never will. Not much time...

I specifically said tinker>DSC

My concern is not Azorius at all. My concern is the turn 1 were you play a hierarch and leave things wide open. I trust (actually I hope) to have at least a Force or Daze to be able to stall so I can get down a rod or meddling mage. I am talking about the combo match up.

I named so many good stuff about azorius. But I didn't name Oath or any of the arguments you named. For the Oath you have the bounce. Like I said you want to bounce/counter everything they throw at you until you plug in with selkie or constable. Constable in the Oath case is preferred. Meddling Mage is a nice weapon to Oath as well.

I can only suggest that you try him out and hope that you use him the way you should and understand the azorius. And that can only be accomplished by playing the card in several matches, discovering new things about it. I was laughing the day this thread was opened. I didn't think it was serious, the noble hierarch. But after some preliminary testings I find him very solid.

[Stormanimagus]

And I was pointing out that this quote:

Shroud is amazing against Chain Of Vapor, Hurkyl's Recall and Echoing Truth.

is untrue when it comes to Hurkyl's Recall.  I wasn't speaking about your thoughts on Guildmage.

Oh. Sorry. Correct you are.

[Stormanimagus]

After some consideration and testing I've come to the conclusion that my "exalted" based deck is far too creature heavy. It needs a way to deal with spells at instant speed more effectively and so I've come to the following list:

Selkie-Strike

Land (18):
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Creatures (18):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Meddling Mage
4 Tarmogoyf       
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
2 Trygon Predator

Instants (16):
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force Of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Path To Exile

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

SB
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
3 Kataki, War’s Wage
4 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Path To Exile
1 Swords To Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle

[the_lord_shaper]

A lot of these decks are running both selkie and catcher. Since they are both merfolk, lord of Atlantis and Merrow Reejerey might be a not too bad consideration.

[Stormanimagus]

@the_lord_shaper– No. Just no. Those cards are terrible and tribes are no good in Vintage. Noble Hierarch pumps up your Selkies and that is plenty of help for them.

On the topic of Cursecatcher though I am realizing that that may be a better include than STP for this Mana-denial-centric deck. With that in mind, here is my latest (likely final) list:

Selkie-Strike

Land (17):
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Creatures (21):
3 Cursecatcher
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Meddling Mage
4 Tarmogoyf       
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
2 Trygon Predator

Instants (13):
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force Of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

SB
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
2 Kataki, War’s Wage
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
3 Swords To Plowshares
2 Seal Of Primordium

This deck is really focused on a couple narrow things:

1. Mana denial, mana denial, mana denial. Between Waste/Strip + Stife, Null Rod, Daze, and Cursecatcher your opponent should be short the mana they need very frequently.

2. A beatstick to make the Mana-Denial strategy worth it. Tarmogoyf is essentially your man here, but Selkie can do 2 a turn with 1 Hierarch out and MM can do 3 a turn with Hierarch out.

So that's where I see this deck going right now. I do anticipate one huge gaping hole for the deck, however:

TINKER!

What is there to be done about Tinker? STP is not the answer to Tinker that it used to be because most players will be running Inkwell Leviathan over Darksteel Colossus. Is it possible with all the mana denial to just Race an Inkwell Leviathan once that Tinker actually plows through your countermagic?

I suppose I could SB Aven Mindcensor but I'm just not sure that slot is worth using on it. I'd like people's thoughts on this.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Very good find Guli! The Guildmage stops the Tez and Painter win conditions in just one card.

Good thing for Painter that it runs at least 4 REBS main.  And many players run Tinker-Inkwell in both decks, so there's an alternate kill available.

[Stormanimagus]

Very good find Guli! The Guildmage stops the Tez and Painter win conditions in just one card.

Good thing for Painter that it runs at least 4 REBS main.  And many players run Tinker-Inkwell in both decks, so there's an alternate kill available.

I said many posts ago that the Azorius Guildmage is Garbage and it becomes even more Garbage if you are running MD Waste + Daze as you'll often not have the 3 mana for the ability up when you need it. It is JUST. . . PLAIN. . . GARBAGE! Thanks for backing me up on this one Gunslinga. Do you have any comments for the list I posted?

Edit: Also, I realize some people might think of it as sacrelige to post a GU/b fish deck NOT sporting Dark Confidant, but I believe I've crafted just that. Here's a list I'm tinkering with that I think would have a better match against TPS.

Selkie-Strike

Land (17):
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
4 Null Rod

Creatures (15):
3 Cursecatcher
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf       
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Instants (13):
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force Of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze

Sorceries (7):
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Time Walk

SB
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
3 Trygon Predator
3 Yixlid Jailer
3 Seal Of Primordium
2 Threads Of Disloyalty

[Guli]

You stated that Azorius is to stop fetchlands. That shows that you have zero experience with the card. The azorius is a very good support unit. It supports selkie and constable against aggro. It supports Null Rod against vault or painter. The semi-stifle ability is bonus and useful against welders or random fetch/wastes. It stops Tezz a 5 mana investment. It helps against bazaar/dredge. These are ALL different match ups. The card is extremely useful and versatile.

What is up with the black? You are showing instability in your lists and posts. You don't need to post a list every time you contribute to the thread. (But you can of course). I am curious, did you go and get some real time action with the deck. Some tourney reports for example?

[AmbivalentDuck]

A bit of a sidetrack, but this list has performed exceedingly well for me online, particularly against Tez and combo.

// Lands
    2  Island
    4  Tundra
    4  Flooded Strand
    1  Polluted Delta
    2  Snow-Covered Plains
    1  Library of Alexandria

// Creatures
    4  Ethersworn Canonist
    4 [CNF] Esperzoa
    1  Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
    4  Cursecatcher
    2  Sower of Temptation

// Spells
    1  Brainstorm
    3  Commandeer
    4  Mystic Remora
    1  Black Lotus
    2  Misdirection
    4  Null Rod
    4  Force of Will
    1  Ponder
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Time Walk
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Pearl
    2  Repeal

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Sower of Temptation
SB: 2  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3  Energy Flux
SB: 4  Disenchant
SB: 2  Jotun Grunt
SB: 2  Pithing Needle

There are several evidence 'weakest links' that could be replaced with cards like Selkie, Goyf, etc. With Trygons in the board.  I strongly recommend that if you don't need to be turning multiple creatures sideways each turn, you look at Remora and heavy use of pitch counters.  Also, Canonist is a one-man armada against Tez and combo since you basically only need to counter their mass artifact bounce.  Your own main threats (including Null Rod) are artifacts and therefore easily protected.