Noble Fish: GUW variants here!

[Stormanimagus]

You stated that Azorius is to stop fetchlands. That shows that you have zero experience with the card. The azorius is a very good support unit. It supports selkie and constable against aggro. It supports Null Rod against vault or painter. The semi-stifle ability is bonus and useful against welders or random fetch/wastes. It stops Tezz a 5 mana investment. It helps against bazaar/dredge. These are ALL different match ups. The card is extremely useful and versatile.

What is up with the black? You are showing instability in your lists and posts. You don't need to post a list every time you contribute to the thread. (But you can of course). I am curious, did you go and get some real time action with the deck. Some tourney reports for example?

First Off. for the record I said nothing regarding fetchlands. What I said was that Azorius Guildmage is bad for Fish decks as they are now because the mana investment is too great. I'm sorry I was a bit negative in my last post, but I'll explain.

IMO U/x Fish lists right now need a core set of cards to be succesful:

4 Null Rod
4 Force Of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Lotus
2-3 Appropriate Moxen.

The rest is really up to you, but, IF you are running:

UW ---> Meddling Mage is a must as still hoses Tinker and Oath proactively and that is pretty key for Fish as those cards beat Fish.
UB  ---> Duress/Thoughtseize as a 5 of Split is a must for obvious reasons against Combo and Oath (also can nab early Tinker)
UG  ---> Tarmogoyf is a must. This is less obvious, but one of the reasons that Fish is weak against Combo not because it doesn't have good hate for it, but because its clock is so slow that they can just putter around and take 2-3 a turn until the opportune moment and then go off in your face. Tarmogoyf ramps the clock up by at least 2 turns and that is absolutely the difference against many Combo decks. He even has the potential to beat a resolved Tinker + Leviathan simply by racing.

So, if we consider 4-5 Slots filled automatically based on color then we have a grand total of 26-27 non-land slots filled. Since there should probably be about 18 land in a good fish build (5 of which really should be Waste/Strip if you are running Stifle/Daze and you SHOULD be running Stifle/Daze!) then that leaves about 14-15 slots open to you depending on your colors. I would argue that a draw engine is key for a fish deck and the two best ones out there right now IMO are Dark Confidant or Cold-Eyed Selkie.

That's another 4 Slots.

We are down to 10-11 Slots now.

Aight, now to my point regarding Azorius Guildmage. If you can understand my argument for including a very focused Mana Denial Strategy where I'll often be sitting on 2 mana until turn 3-4 then you'll realize that the Guildmage is not good. He becomes only a later game bomb and an early game bear. Vintage Fish cards need to be playable + useable in the early game AND the late game. I don't think you can honestly say that Guildmage fits both those bills. Tezzeret Decks and decks running Tinker are looking to generate a critical mass of Control and draw spells before completely "going off" and Guildmage does litte to nothing to stop that. Let me also explain that Guildmage will not hose all the things you hope it does:

Examples:

1. Oath Fatties. Many people will be running Progenitus as their kill card. You can't target it. If they are running Hellkite well they'll just stand off against you until they can bounce your guildmage. They'll have multiple Hellkites out to block your men so you won't be able to attack and if you try to tap them down to attack they are going to come back for 16-20 the following turn. Oath LOOOOVES the fish matchup because they have almost no clock and the Oath player can easily set up the combo without Forbidden Orchard. That's why I'm running at least 3 Seal Of Primordium in my SB. I know the Oath Matchup is weak and I want a solid out.

2. Tinker--> dude. Most good players are going to run Inkwell Leviathan because it doesn't die to Chain Of Vapor, STP or any other jank. It is also pitchable to FoW. Trust me. I've talked to the good players and they are going to run it.

3. Goblin Welder. Please. They don't care if you waste 2U to stop a Welder activation They'll just count there blessings and resolve a bomb/robot while your tapped out and can't negate. Many Stax lists run FoW now anyway so they can probably force your forces. Plus Stax isn't that popular right now so I'd doubt seeing many welders.

4. Fish Mirror. Here you might actually have more application, but the problem then becomes the 2W cost of the ability. You'll have to have 4WW up to really make this useful and if you are leaving that up that means you are not casting creatures to match theirs and that is bad. They will eventually overwhelm you with numbers if you are leaving mana up for this guy.

5. Vault/Key. aight. here's the big one. The one you've been preaching to us all for a while. Simply put, Tezzeret will deal better with this than you think. They have no problem producing mana and card advantage and they will bounce him at the opportune moment and then combo you out. Since, most likely they will already have the combo on the table when you are stopping it with this guy they will only need to focus their sights on staying alive long enough to bounce him. They are already worried about Null Rod so, yes, they will be running bounce. This matchup is perhaps where Azorius Guildmage SHOULD be shining and he really doesn't.

Aight, I hope that clarified things.

Peace,

Noah

P.S- my BUG list is pretty much garbage compared to the GUW. I'd disregard it. It's untested and I don't know why I posted it.

[Stormanimagus]

Hey guys. So I think I'm all but set on the MD for my GUW list (it is what a posted most recently), but I don't quite know what to do for the SB.

What's better against TPS?

Gaddock Teeg?
Ethersworn Canonist?
Vendilion Clique?
Aven Mindcensor?

I'm already running Thorn of Amethyst as a 4-of in the SB for sure, but I'd like to know if you see any other possibilities.

Also, would Thorn be worth bringing in against Manaless Ichorid?

[Guli]

Tinker is indeed a problem with the untargetable artifact biggies. I use to opt for Welders to naturally take care of Tinker while using Welder for other stuff as well (canonist/clamps/mana...) but now even that doesn't work. I have seen suggestions like curfew. Doesn't sound all too bad in a deck with exalted and a good amount of creatures to take care of shroud/protection. But curfew doesn't really make me that happy at all to run in main deck. Maybe scroll/mystical/curfew but that might not be enough either.

If you are using black then Diabolic edict sounds nice enough to be used as general creature removal and to take care of Tinker.

A white answer is Aven Mindcensor thought it is not waterproof.

If you ask me the way to stop Tinker is not to give time and mana to the opponent. If you leave him unchallenged you die anyway.

Azorius is not an answer to Tinker. But that is just 1 card. I can live with that personally. Also it was merely a suggestion anyway. With the mana acceleration from Hierarch, and the power of selkie and constable when they get evade thanks to azorius he gets a consideration from me. I like the card, i would love if his activation was cheaper but it isn't. But I strongly advise you not to be close your mind because of the 3 mana he requires. It scares the hell out of you apparently. You forget that I do not HAVE to use its ability, I CAN use it he gives me options and solves problems. When I need him I use him, when I don't need him that means my selks are getting through anyway!

To solve the Tinker in the coming metas you will need to look for ways to stop Tinker itself by mana denial or spell denial. If you don't you need non targeted removal/bounce. Or another solution is to use cards with extract effects.

[Stormanimagus]

Tinker is indeed a problem with the untargetable artifact biggies. I use to opt for Welders to naturally take care of Tinker while using Welder for other stuff as well (canonist/clamps/mana...) but now even that doesn't work. I have seen suggestions like curfew. Doesn't sound all too bad in a deck with exalted and a good amount of creatures to take care of shroud/protection. But curfew doesn't really make me that happy at all to run in main deck. Maybe scroll/mystical/curfew but that might not be enough either.

If you are using black then Diabolic edict sounds nice enough to be used as general creature removal and to take care of Tinker.

A white answer is Aven Mindcensor thought it is not waterproof.

If you ask me the way to stop Tinker is not to give time and mana to the opponent. If you leave him unchallenged you die anyway.

Azorius is not an answer to Tinker. But that is just 1 card. I can live with that personally. Also it was merely a suggestion anyway. With the mana acceleration from Hierarch, and the power of selkie and constable when they get evade thanks to azorius he gets a consideration from me. I like the card, i would love if his activation was cheaper but it isn't. But I strongly advise you not to be close your mind because of the 3 mana he requires. It scares the hell out of you apparently. You forget that I do not HAVE to use its ability, I CAN use it he gives me options and solves problems. When I need him I use him, when I don't need him that means my selks are getting through anyway!

To solve the Tinker in the coming metas you will need to look for ways to stop Tinker itself by mana denial or spell denial. If you don't you need non targeted removal/bounce. Or another solution is to use cards with extract effects.

Ok. Have you not seen my most recent decklist?

The deck is oozing with mana-denial and counters that take advantage of it:

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Stifle
4 Null Rod
4 Daze
3 Cursecatcher

and that's not even counting 4 FoW and 4 MM as another more direct answer to Tinker.

I think we are actually in agreement that mana-denial is the best option for stopping Tinker that doesn't lose you game against the rest of the field.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on Azorius Guildmage for the time being. I would ask you to consider my post regarding "must includes" and ask yourself how you'd fill those last 10 slots.

If you are running Green and Null Rod than I really think Selkie + Hierarch should be another 8 slots and that brings you to 2-3 slots left over.

Right now I'm using them For Trygon Predator. I like Predator because he can really take down Stax while also giving you a MD out to Oath (if you resolve him they'll have to deal with him before casting Oath unless they have Time Walk and 2UG mana up and you don't have Stifle), but right now I think he is the only negotiable slot in my deck and he's only a 2 of at the moment.

You could argue that Cursecatcher is also negotiable, but I really like him as extra mana denial and an absolute bomb against Ichorid. I mean, he can single-handedly RFG bridges and counter Dread Return or Cabal Therapy all by himself. Pretty hot if you ask me.

So basically what I'm saying is that I'd only add 2-3 Azorius Guildmage for the Predator and perhaps a Cursecatcher. I don't think Guildmage is better than Trygon early or late game so I choose to run Trygon. Trygon may not be able to stop Vault/key at instant speed, but he does force them to drop both on the same turn in order to win. He is also good early at eating moxen or Juggernaut/robots.

[urweak]

UW ---> Meddling Mage is a must as still hoses Tinker and Oath proactively and that is pretty key for Fish as those cards beat Fish.

I like Ethersworn Canonist over Meddling Mage. To me, hes just a Grizzly Bears, while with Canonist they can resolve all the tinkers and oaths they want, but you can resolve all the counters you want to stop them, and they have no answer. It shuts down counter wars.

[Stormanimagus]

UW ---> Meddling Mage is a must as still hoses Tinker and Oath proactively and that is pretty key for Fish as those cards beat Fish.

I like Ethersworn Canonist over Meddling Mage. To me, hes just a Grizzly Bears, while with Canonist they can resolve all the tinkers and oaths they want, but you can resolve all the counters you want to stop them, and they have no answer. It shuts down counter wars.

I wouldn't argue that Canonist isn't good, but Mage has distinct advantages. Canonist can be EOT Hurkyl's quite easily and most of the matchups where you'll want him are against decks running Hurkyl's Recall. I do not believe you'll have an endless stream of counters. You do have Daze, yes, but FoW is not going to always be there for you when you need it as Brainstorm and Gush are restricted so drawing into FoW is not a given at all. For this reason I do not believe Canonist is a lock down in any way. Mage is a lock on the card you seek to prevent and usually that card can easily be played as the only spell of the turn to win the game (big offenders being Tinker and Oath Of Druids). Mage Stops those cards proactively with no help from a stream of FoW or Daze. THEN you can use your FoW/Daze to protect your threats and keep the beats coming.

Again, I want to reiterate: I like Canonist, but I'd probably only use it in the SB or TPS in addition to MM.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Canonist can be EOT Hurkyl's quite easily and most of the matchups where you'll want him are against decks running Hurkyl's Recall. I do not believe you'll have an endless stream of counters. You do have Daze, yes, but FoW is not going to always be there for you when you need it as Brainstorm and Gush are restricted so drawing into FoW is not a given at all. For this reason I do not believe Canonist is a lock down in any way.

Yeah.  So run more counterspells to support him.  Hurkyl's is subject to MisD, Commandeer, and FoW.  Seriously, put Hierarch to work as a Remora enabler.

[Stormanimagus]

Canonist can be EOT Hurkyl's quite easily and most of the matchups where you'll want him are against decks running Hurkyl's Recall. I do not believe you'll have an endless stream of counters. You do have Daze, yes, but FoW is not going to always be there for you when you need it as Brainstorm and Gush are restricted so drawing into FoW is not a given at all. For this reason I do not believe Canonist is a lock down in any way.

Yeah.  So run more counterspells to support him.  Hurkyl's is subject to MisD, Commandeer, and FoW.  Seriously, put Hierarch to work as a Remora enabler.

Remora is not a card to be used in a Fish deck that wants to do lots of things on its own turn. Remora decks are very specifically designed to abuse Remora and I really don't see its usefulness here.

[Guli]

Hi all let me share some more,

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on Azorius Guildmage for the time being. I would ask you to consider my post regarding "must includes" and ask yourself how you'd fill those last 10 slots.

It is not really an unknown denial package. I am very familiar with it myself and I am 100% positive that A LOT of people also use it or used it before. But it stays a choice and a route. It is not a must at all. I sense that you are defining a lot of things in the same fashion. Read your own posts. You make a lot of statements. Statements that sounds logical but doesn't always work out in real game situations. Cards are solid not because they ALWAYS work but because they tend to be reliable in most game situations and then a card gains a value and then it becomes an accepted card in the eyes of the many.

That being said I myself lean towards the innovative and on paper less accepted strategies. I don't do that all the time but occasionally I am there. I am well aware of that and also I like playing that role.

Meddling Mage use to be stronger. Some part of this decrease is power is due some restrictions. I like Canonist and Glowrider right now. They will effect EVERY deck out there. Some more than others. Meddling Mage is a hard card and requires a good pilot. That is also a factor and a reality you can't ignore. You can say whatever you want but naming the correct card with MM is not easy and the majority of the players will make mistakes with MM. Still even if you name the correct card in every game and every situations MM seems to be too narrow. Narrow in the context of only nailing 1 card and giving the opponent free play. Thing is adding cards to a list does not mean you will be casting them all. You just can't. You can't cast meddling Mage AND Null Rod. You will have to make choices during the course of the game. And frankly these days you HAVE to drop something turn 1 and even then it is not always enough. I made a post about 2 drops. I explained that the cc is also a very important factor especially now. You want to drop something turn 1? You need something easy to cast and solid card overall. In my eyes the top 3 creatures/colors and taking the SB into account are white, black and green. Canonist, Confidant and Tarmogoyf. You can't really go wrong with these cards. But you do need to support them or they won't work.

I will conclude by answering you (Stormanimagus) specifically. Our disagreement is not based on wether or not to use the Azorius in your list. You posted your last list after I suggested Azorius. Also I want to repost this quote were you are simply WRONG concerning the tezz match up. You created a game situation and you simply made horrible play mistakes. It shows a bit that you are so focussed on me being wrong and you being right that you just quickly created an argument and said 'Look there, I am right, you see!!!' Here is YOUR post:

P.S- I'd like to explain how Guildmage doesn't beat Vault + Key. Consider. . .

1.You drop a mage on turn 2 and they don't have Drain.

2.Turn 3 you drop a 3 drop and it does get drained. You try to force the drain, but they have FoW. You beat for 2.

3.On their turn they drop Tezzeret with 3 Drain Mana and fetch up Key.

4. Your turn you play nothing of consequence and beat for 2. You leave mana up for Guildmage

5. Their turn, they tutor Chain of Vapor with Merchant, Demonic, Mystical, Imperial or Vampiric. You can't counter as you used your FoW to protect the 3-drop and you haven't draw another + blue card.

I already reacted to this but it was ignored.

On 4. I will attack tezzeret and lower the counters to 1 AND keep 3 mana open.

I will let you draw your own conclusions. For me it doesn't matter, but I have to point out these things to stay correct.

I will be specific now to finish my post, I suggested azorius in a creature base with hierarch/selki/constable to put the focus on the connection while at the same time making myself able to answer non creature decks as well with Azo. Why would you want to run Tarm in a deck were you want to abuse selk and constable. You bounce or tap whatever they put in front of you and then start drawing cards or bounce his board. Once the rancor is in place it is game over.

About the bounce. It clearly doesn't answer everything anymore. So I think mystical/scroll/Curfew/rushing river is a decent call to have some flexibility against Tinker.

So i repeat, i didn't really suggest Azo specifically for your list but more in general with hierarch and selkie.

Have a nice day,

Guli

[Stormanimagus]

Hi all let me share some more,

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on Azorius Guildmage for the time being. I would ask you to consider my post regarding "must includes" and ask yourself how you'd fill those last 10 slots.

It is not really an unknown denial package. I am very familiar with it myself and I am 100% positive that A LOT of people also use it or used it before. But it stays a choice and a route. It is not a must at all. I sense that you are defining a lot of things in the same fashion. Read your own posts. You make a lot of statements. Statements that sounds logical but doesn't always work out in real game situations. Cards are solid not because they ALWAYS work but because they tend to be reliable in most game situations and then a card gains a value and then it becomes an accepted card in the eyes of the many.

That being said I myself lean towards the innovative and on paper less accepted strategies. I don't do that all the time but occasionally I am there. I am well aware of that and also I like playing that role.

Meddling Mage use to be stronger. Some part of this decrease is power is due some restrictions. I like Canonist and Glowrider right now. They will effect EVERY deck out there. Some more than others. Meddling Mage is a hard card and requires a good pilot. That is also a factor and a reality you can't ignore. You can say whatever you want but naming the correct card with MM is not easy and the majority of the players will make mistakes with MM. Still even if you name the correct card in every game and every situations MM seems to be too narrow. Narrow in the context of only nailing 1 card and giving the opponent free play. Thing is adding cards to a list does not mean you will be casting them all. You just can't. You can't cast meddling Mage AND Null Rod. You will have to make choices during the course of the game. And frankly these days you HAVE to drop something turn 1 and even then it is not always enough. I made a post about 2 drops. I explained that the cc is also a very important factor especially now. You want to drop something turn 1? You need something easy to cast and solid card overall. In my eyes the top 3 creatures/colors and taking the SB into account are white, black and green. Canonist, Confidant and Tarmogoyf. You can't really go wrong with these cards. But you do need to support them or they won't work.

I will conclude by answering you (Stormanimagus) specifically. Our disagreement is not based on wether or not to use the Azorius in your list. You posted your last list after I suggested Azorius. Also I want to repost this quote were you are simply WRONG concerning the tezz match up. You created a game situation and you simply made horrible play mistakes. It shows a bit that you are so focussed on me being wrong and you being right that you just quickly created an argument and said 'Look there, I am right, you see!!!' Here is YOUR post:

P.S- I'd like to explain how Guildmage doesn't beat Vault + Key. Consider. . .

1.You drop a mage on turn 2 and they don't have Drain.

2.Turn 3 you drop a 3 drop and it does get drained. You try to force the drain, but they have FoW. You beat for 2.

3.On their turn they drop Tezzeret with 3 Drain Mana and fetch up Key.

4. Your turn you play nothing of consequence and beat for 2. You leave mana up for Guildmage

5. Their turn, they tutor Chain of Vapor with Merchant, Demonic, Mystical, Imperial or Vampiric. You can't counter as you used your FoW to protect the 3-drop and you haven't draw another + blue card.

I already reacted to this but it was ignored.

On 4. I will attack tezzeret and lower the counters to 1 AND keep 3 mana open.

I will let you draw your own conclusions. For me it doesn't matter, but I have to point out these things to stay correct.

I will be specific now to finish my post, I suggested azorius in a creature base with hierarch/selki/constable to put the focus on the connection while at the same time making myself able to answer non creature decks as well with Azo. Why would you want to run Tarm in a deck were you want to abuse selk and constable. You bounce or tap whatever they put in front of you and then start drawing cards or bounce his board. Once the rancor is in place it is game over.

About the bounce. It clearly doesn't answer everything anymore. So I think mystical/scroll/Curfew/rushing river is a decent call to have some flexibility against Tinker.

So i repeat, i didn't really suggest Azo specifically for your list but more in general with hierarch and selkie.

Have a nice day,

Guli

Fair enough. I can see how Guildmage would be better in a list where getting through for damage is that important. My judgement is simply that the combo is too slow. You aren't really going to get to swing with Constable or Selkie until turn 4 in most scenarios and you'll be putting a lot of eggs in one basket against oppossing Fish/TMWA decks.

I respect your creativity Guli. I really do. I have try to innovate the craziest ideas imaginable (usually more with combo decks) such as Etherium Sculptor-Eggs, and Turn-One-Manamorphose Tendrils. I'm not sure if a defensive deck like Fish should be the deck to play an over-powered combo though. Constable + Rancor + Guildmage is an extremely powerful combo and should win you the game when assembled, but it takes a while to set up and a lot of things to resolve + a lot of mana to be available in order to work. Then, the sad thing is, that sometimes it won't even be the winner that you want it to be. Against Combo they'll have the time they need to assemble a critical mass in hand and, unless you also have a glowrider out, they'll simply combo out by dropping a land for the turn and chaining Rituals.

Actually, I'd like to see a list of yours that incorporates Guildmage and Constable. I promise not to simply rip it apart. I just want to see how you ideally see it playing out.

My issue with slow combos + synergies right now is that the format is generally pretty fast. The biggest deck in the format right now is a control deck (Tezz) and even that deck can win on turn 4 pretty smoothly off a turn 2 mana drain.

I think peope forget, when playing fish, that unless you have your opponent completely locked down you are one of the slowest clocks around. You are trading off some of the best disruptive elements in the game for not having a combo finish and, therefore, giving your opponent multiple Time Walks.

Imagine any combo deck that cannot win off 3 Time Walks. That's usually the minimum amount of extra time you'll give them by being a fish player vs. an opposing combo player.

Now, those 3 Time Walks (this is not an exact number just a guesstimate) can be offset by quality disruption, but you need to understand that that alone is a reason for Tarmogoyf being the bomb that he is. He can reduce those Time Walks by 1-2 most games when he hits the table by turn 2.

Anyway, I'd really love to see your decklist, as I can tell there'll be some common threads, but that it'll be very different from mine.

Peace,

Noah

P.S- I want you to know that I discussed my Selkie list with Stephen Menendian and he thought it would be pretty sick. He explained to me that mana-denial hits a large majority of decks where it hurts and that many players will not have the savvy or means in any given game to get around you stifling their fetch and then wasting their next dual followed by Null Rod. Cursecatcher and Daze are just gravy and allow you to tap out while knowing you have the proper defense up for your critters. I want you to know that that's another reason I run Daze. I think Selkie + Hierarch is super easy to have on the board because the one helps play the other quickly, but it's less easy to attack with a 2/2 that will draw you 2 cards on the spot. Generally that'll be your opponent's target #1 for bounce or removal and so Daze is a house here as you can catch them off guard and make them spend their resourses only to have their spell countered while you draw 2 cards and start establishing control.

Your card choices all seem like good ideas and they do seem synergistic, but you haven't properly explained the defensive strategy for making them stick. When you have cards like Selkie or Constable I feel that becomes more necessary. If you are going to invest 3 mana (sometimes 4 with Rancor) and 2 cards then you want to know that your man is gonna get through right?

[Guli]

Mana:

    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Black Lotus
    4 Tundra
    3 Flooded Strand
    1 Plains
    1 Island
    4 Tropical Island
    3 Windswept Heath
    1 Forest

Creature Base

    3 Azorius Guildmage
    4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
    4 Cephalid Constable
    4 Noble Hierarch
    3 Aven Mindcensor

Stuff:

    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    4 Null Rod
    3 Rancor
    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    1 Merchant scroll
    1 mystical tutor
    2 Rushing River/curfew

NO SB AVAILABLE ATM

Here is the list you requested. This is the line I am thinking.

[policehq]

4 Daze is definitely not a Fish staple; in fact, with Trygon Predator, Cold-Eyed Selkie, and/or other 3-drops (particularly Vendilion Clique), it's bad dis-synnergy.

[Stormanimagus]

4 Daze is definitely not a Fish staple; in fact, with Trygon Predator, Cold-Eyed Selkie, and/or other 3-drops (particularly Vendilion Clique), it's bad dis-synnergy.

I agree. My list from some posts back did not run that many 3 drops, however. I run 4 Hierarch, 3 Cursecatcher, 4 Tarmogoyf and 4 Meddling Mage. In THAT deck I do think it is a solid include. It's especially good with the Wasteland + Stifle + Null Rod package as your opponent will often be forced to tap out to play anything.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Remora is not a card to be used in a Fish deck that wants to do lots of things on its own turn. Remora decks are very specifically designed to abuse Remora and I really don't see its usefulness here.

Then explain my success with it.  You're building a Fish deck that isn't interested in attacking with more than one creature each turn.  Why load up on creatures?  Also, Remora can be compared to Standstill: drop a disruption creature turn 1, drop a Remora turn 2 and start attacking.  With you steadily chipping away at their life total, they can't just wait for the upkeep to become unbearable.

[hyperchord24]

Has anyone one else tried Rafiq of the Many?  With Selkie and Hierarch, it's like a one-sided draw seven.  I use him in a more aggressive build.  It's casting cost might be too restrictive at 4, but he's been an absolute game-breaker, especially with rancor.

[bluemage55]

Has anyone one else tried Rafiq of the Many?  With Selkie and Hierarch, it's like a one-sided draw seven.  I use him in a more aggressive build.  It's casting cost might be too restrictive at 4, but he's been an absolute game-breaker, especially with rancor.

On top of the 4cc is the fact that you need 3 different colors to cast it.  By the time it hits play, it will be easily answered.

[Guli]

Still adding 1 copy to the deck can't really hurt.

[Stormanimagus]

So guys. I just T-8ed at the TMD Open in Statford, CT with Fish!

I'll try to flesh out the important details of some of the matches tomorrow, but suffice it to say that I had an awesome time. I went 5-1-1 in the Swiss with an intentional draw to Travis Laplante in the 7th round (we played it out for fun and I won!). I lost to Ichorid in the T-8 and it was a good reminder to me that you need to reserve at least some SB space for GOOD Ichorid hate. Oh well, too bad I suppose. Who knows? If I had been lucky and dodged Ichorid as my matchup there I think I could have very well made it through to the finals. Anyway, more details to come, but here is the list I ended up playing for your reference:

Selkie-Strike

Land (17):
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus 
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire 
1 Mox Pearl        
4 Null Rod

Creatures (21):
3 Cursecatcher
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Trygon Predator

Instants (13):
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force Of Will
4 Stifle
3 Daze
1 Hurkyl’s Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

SB
4 Children Of Korlis
2 Ray Of Revelation
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Trygon Predator
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Path To Exile

In retrospect I probably could have dropped the 2 SB Mindcensor + 1 of the SB Path To Exile for 3 Tormod's Crypt or some other Ichrorid Hate. Usually Mindcensor was just gravy in an easy matchup and I have other answers to Tinker available like Meddling Mage or simple mana denial. But oh well, you live and learn I suppose.

I'm very proud of my performance and I feel I played the deck pretty optimally all day long. I still would like to hone and tweak little things for it though so I'm open to ideas: Especially super-secret Ichorid hate tech!

[Harlequin]

Stormanimagus and I have been working on this deck for a week or two leading up to the event.  I regret not playing it day 1.  I played a similar list to Noah's On day 2 and made Top-4.

5 Fetchs
3 Trops
3 Tundra
1 Isand
3 Waste
1 Strip
3 MoxUGW
1 Lotus

4 Noble Hierrarch
4 Cold-eyed Selkie
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Trigon preditor

4 Force
4 Stifle
4 Null Rod
3 Daze

1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral
1 Timewalk
2 Hurkyls Recall
1 Misdirrection
1 Psionic Blast


==========
4 Children of Korlis
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic or Progenitus
3 Aven Mindcensors
2 Jitte
2 STP
1 Trygon Preditor #4


The biggest difference is the lack of Curse Catcher.  Curse catcher enhances the mana-denial theme, but I feel like he's too lack-luster in general.  Also I think he competes with Stifle.  I tried a new tack for the deck and decided to run an all blue instant mini-tool-box, supported by Merchant Scroll (hense the maindeck Psiblast over maindeck STP).  It definatly handled the way I wanted it to. 

[policehq]

I think Harlequin's decklist is much more able to take advantage of the Exalted mechanic without the Tarmogoyf clock, and his results may show that a big finisher may be unnecessary.

[Harlequin]

I was running 3 goyf, I just forgot to list them...

I'll go back and edit the list. 

I think Goyfs are required simlply to beat other decks running goyf.  If no one played goyf, then I wouldn't play it either.  I don't have enough removal to reliably beat goyfs.  In top-4 I lost to getting "out goyfed"

[jamestosetti]

Heres what I've been testing.

2 island
2 polltued delta
2 flooded strand
3 tundra
3 tropical island
4 wasteland

3 sage of epyter
4 ninja of the deep hours
2 tarmogoyf
3 trygon predator
4 meddling mage

3 null rod
2 pithin gneedle
1 mox saphire
1 ancestral recall
4 force of will
2 mana drain
2 negate
3 daze
3 stifle
1 timewalk
1 brainstorm
2 hurkyl's recall
3 swords to plowshares
s/b
2 engineered explosives
2 serentity
2 relic of progenitus
3 tormod's crypt
2 aven mindscensor
2 gaddok teeg
2 ether sworn cannonist

[urweak]

Very cool to see two GUW decks make the top 8 on two different days. Ichorid is a huge problem i think, the last two events I went to I made top 8 with my list, and died to Ichorid in the top8 both times. Even with siding in 3x Windborn Muse, 2x Echoing Turth, 2x Crypts, and 2x Relics it d seem to be enough.

Do you guys have a round by round break down of your matchs? Even something simple like what you play vs and how you did.

[Stormanimagus]

Very cool to see two GUW decks make the top 8 on two different days. Ichorid is a huge problem i think, the last two events I went to I made top 8 with my list, and died to Ichorid in the top8 both times. Even with siding in 3x Windborn Muse, 2x Echoing Turth, 2x Crypts, and 2x Relics it d seem to be enough.

Do you guys have a round by round break down of your matchs? Even something simple like what you play vs and how you did.

I'll post something in a week or so when I have time (my next week is crazy with class and rehearsal and trying to find a new apartment), but I can at least give my matchup outline to you now. I played the following list:

Selkie-Strike

Land (17):
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus 
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire 
1 Mox Pearl        
4 Null Rod

Creatures (21):
3 Cursecatcher
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Trygon Predator

Instants (13):
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force Of Will
4 Stifle
3 Daze
1 Hurkyl’s Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

SB
4 Children Of Korlis
2 Ray Of Revelation
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Trygon Predator
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Path To Exile

Now there are some things I'd change about this list, particularly in the SB, if I had the tournament to play again (i.e REAL Ichorid hate in the SB), but that is neither here nor there. Unfortunately, since I did not expect to T-8 with my deck my notes are pretty shotty, but I will try to piece them together in the next couple weeks and make sense of it all. Here's what I can remember about my matches:

Matchups

Round 1: Stax with Smokestack - Smokestack is a surprisingly bad card against Fish when you have Huge Tarmogoyfs getting in there and Selkies refilling your hands. I think the luster of Smokestack is starting to fade. He also didn't follow it up or lead with a Crucible in any of the games and that may have contributed to the ease of my victories.

Round 2: Some Shop deck I think? - I don't remember this match at all really. Anyone remember facing Selkie in round 2? That was probably me. I think I won this one in 3.

Round 3: Control Slaver Variant (Loss)- I mis-sideboarded dreadfully and that may have contributed to my game 3 loss. Trygon Predator is NOT good in this matchup!

Round 4: ELD with Tezzeret- I win in 3 tough tough games. This was my crowning achievement of the day as I know Eric is an amazing magic player. We both made some really dumb plays game 3. Fortunately my dumb play of Forcing his Sensei's Divining Top on Turn 1 when I had Mox + Land + Null Rod in hand did not come back to haunt me.

Round 5: Some sort of GWB hate deck with Confidants and Goyfs - Don't underestimate the NOOBS! This girl took me to 3 long games with a hate deck featuring Gaddock Teeg and Tarmogoyf. I was lucky to come out of this one with the win. Path To Exile actually helped me here at removing Confidants and Goyfs.

Round 6: Brian with Mono-Blue Shops with Master Of Etherium - I remember very little of this match except that I had the biggest lucksack moment of the tourney game 1. I was about to scoop to an army of Masters + a Razormane Masticore, but I decided to draw one more card and I rip the only answer in my deck: HURKYL'S MOFUCKING RECALL! I couldn't believe it! From there I was able to bounce his board and swing with Tarmogoyf for the win. This is a lesson to you all: Don't concede unless you have no outs or you really feel that time is going to be a constraint. Play it OUT! Brian was a really good sport about this match though. I know what it's like to be on the receiving end of ridiculous luck for my opponent.

Round 7: ID with Travis Laplante playing his WarmammothShops.dec (I play it out for fun and win in 3).

Top 16: Andrew with TPS: win in 3 games after losing game 1 after mulling to 5. I didn't even really use the Children, my SB tech. Mana Denial is surprisingly effective when combined with a clock against combo. Stifle pulls double duty, obviously and I just have a lot of solid hate in the MD for this matchup. I think this could have been a lot closer if he had drawn a bit better however. I only had Hurkyl's for his Inkwell, so that's something that'll have to be addressed, perhaps, in future builds.

Top 8: Lose to Ichorid in 2 games. Valliant effort, but it wasn’t gonna happen with my Sideboard. I wish I had had a SB with a mix of Ichorid hate. Perhaps 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Relic Of Progenitus, and 1 Engineered Explosives and perhaps even a Trinket Mage or 2. I'm still not sure that could have pulled me through the matchup because I think the best Ichorid hate is black or well. . . Just winning fast (Ad Nauseam is an example of a deck that should absolutely roast Ichorid alive), but this match certainly gave me a lot of respect for the deck. Sean was a good opponent and nice to play with. I wish I could have given him a harder time, but I'm perfectly happy with my 6th place finish. Next time I'm going all the way.

So I suppose that was a completeish report. I'll add details to this post as they come to me.

-Storm

[Tempus]

How were the Cursecatchers for you?

I mean 1st turn Cursecatcher means to Stifle for fetch oder Hierarch... And on the 2nd Turn is Hierarch so much better than a Cursecatcher...

[Stormanimagus]

How were the Cursecatchers for you?

I mean 1st turn Cursecatcher means to Stifle for fetch oder Hierarch... And on the 2nd Turn is Hierarch so much better than a Cursecatcher...

Cursecatcher was definitely no Daze. All day long I was siding 1-3 of him out. Obviously he's randomly good against Ichorid as well as Remora Blue so I'm not sure I'd cut him altogether. I think he just felt underwhelming cause I faced Shops pretty much all day long and he's entirely dead against them. If I were to redesign the deck he'd be first to get the axe but he did smooth out the curve and give me more 1-drops. I didn't find him competing with stifle too often except perhaps when I was on the play game 1 and I had both in my hand and was trying to decide whether to drop him blind. Thing is, he'd usually be as good as stifle there because he'd still time walk me a turn and set my stifle up for the next fetch or attempted Tendrils.

[Tempus]

Ok, sounds interesting.

When facing all Shops, do you thought that 1 Basic is enough? Because I expect a lot of Fish and some Shops in my Meta, but an mayority being Drains and half that Rituals.

My current List:

4-5 Fetch
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
7-8 other Lands (17 total)

3 Mox
1 Lotus
4 Null Rod

4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 Meddling Mage
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Trygon Predator

4 FoW
4 Stifle
4 Daze
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Echoing Truth (not sure yet)

1 Time Walk

1 Slot left

SB:

1 Crypt
1 Relic
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Pithing Needle
2 don't know yet (Another Relic/Crypt/Needle or Hurkyl's Recall)

1 MB Slot I'm not sure about, maybe a Needle or another Goyf/Predator. Any Ideas?

[urweak]

Top 8: Lose to Ichorid in 2 games. Valliant effort, but it wasn’t gonna happen with my Sideboard. I wish I had had a SB with a mix of Ichorid hate. Perhaps 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Relic Of Progenitus, and 1 Engineered Explosives and perhaps even a Trinket Mage or 2. I'm still not sure that could have pulled me through the matchup because I think the best Ichorid hate is black or well. .

For what its worth, I really like Windborn Muse as a SB card, for both aggro and Ichorid.

[Guli]

Since ichorid doesn't use mana denial or creature removal you can use peacekeeper (SB) and simply wait untill their deck is burned. Of course you still want grave hate. We tend to target the grave too much and well the problem with that is that they are more resilient to it that we want to believe. Their entire deck is based on the strategy to generate a lot of cards into the grave so one or two crypts do not make you 'safe'. However as far as I know the win condition is still attacking creatures. Moat could also be an option but it is 4 mana which is a lot more to find than 3.

The same strategy can be used to stop Oath of druids after game 1 unless they run the bouncer.

[jbrauer99]

Hello Noah,

I am the stax player u faced day 1, round 1.  Sorry I couldn’t put up a better fight, my travels had left me fairly exhausted, and my deck just didn’t want to cooperate game three.  Anyway, your list seems very good against shops in general, and I am going to test the matchup soon.  The Hierarchs are actually a big boon to the stax match as they give you an extra mana source, and come down early.  This in turn helps you jump out onto the board, and mitigates the tempo loss from daze, which can be huge.  I personally really like hierarch, and think you have found a great home for her.  I don’t think I even saw a predator hit play, but would have definitely not enjoyed it.  How did they perform overall?  I know you faced a lot of shops, so I am curious.  Are they really any good in other matchups?  I guess I could see running the fourth goyf in one of their spots. 

The ichorid question is one we can relate on.  I think there is a general consensus that diversity is key.  Peacekeeper seems horrible as both a contagion or a darkblast can take it out.  On top of that it has an upkeep.  Windborn muse dodges both of these with its 3 toughness, but it’s mana cost seems prohibitive, especially in your case.  Did you bring the children in when you faced ichorid?  They seem like a great piece of splash technology not unlike heap doll in my workshop aggro build.  Being able to sac a creature at will can really thwart their bridge plan.  Heap doll of course serves double duty as he can also nail a key card like FKZ.  Like children I also use heap doll against combo.  Its limited, but can keep them off a yawg win by targeting the tutor they might try and reuse for those quick kills.  Besides that I think a mix of the common things like you suggested is good, but splashing hate where you can is also key.  Hope this helps.

Joel