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Author Topic: Vial Zoo  (Read 4389 times)
nineisnoone
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« on: January 29, 2009, 09:39:51 am »

3   Windswept Heath
3   Wooded Foothill
4   Savannah     
3   Taiga     
1   Plateau     
1   Plains
1   Forest
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Ruby   
1   Mox Emerald
1   Black Lotus   

4   Wild Nacatl   
4   Children of Korlis   
4   Elvish Scrapper
4   Tarmogoyf   
4   Stingscourger
2   Viridian Zealot
2   Saffi Eriksdotter
2   Ethersworn Canonist   
2   Vexing Shusher
2   Gaddock Teeg
1   Anger
1   Squee, Goblin Nabob
                 
4   AEther Vial   
4   Survival of the Fittest

SIDEBOARD
3   Flame Jab
4   Red Elemental Blast
4   Pyrostatic Pillar   
4   Path of Exile

You could make a good argument that Vial/Clamp should be Rod/Chalice. 

In any case, Korlis, Cannonist, Teeg give you 8 cards that shut down storm game 1.  I only run 2x Teeg and Cannonist since they aren't useful in multiples plus Teeg is legendary.

Vial, Shusher, Teeg give you strong give you another 8 cards that shut down control (Though Teeg only on Force of Will).  Again Shusher/Teeg isn't useful in multiples and legendary.

Nacatl/Tarm are probably the best clocks in the game, barring maybe Negator if you are running enough acceleration to play him early.

Stingscourger is the out to Darksteel Collosus.  Additionally, it becomes uncounterable with Vial and draws you two cards for 1 mana (counting only the equip cost) with Skullclamp.

The Lavamancers are up in the air.  At the moment they feel solid.  Do they interfere with Tarm?  Not really as I only activate Lava as a last resort.  So situation A) Tarm + Lava + no good creatures to hit =dissynergy is irrelevant. B) No Tarm, dissynergy is irrelevant.  C) Tarm + Lava + creatures you want to hit = dissynergy is irrelevant if you can remove a creature (since you will kill a creature) and a card that has multiples in graveyards (most typically a land).  Usually, you can at least get 1 activation w/o weakening your Tarm which plenty.

REBs in the main are mostly in anticipation of Tezz and blue generically.  Those are really the SB slots in the main sharing with Pillar/Path/Mutation.

Thoughts?

EDIT:  Went back to Scrappers.  Upped to 4 Stingscourgers.  Added 3 Flame Jab in the SB.

EDIT:  SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST IS REALLY GOOD HERE.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 12:44:29 am by nineisnoone » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2009, 10:19:24 am »

Hi, nine

Well we have discussed a lot of in previous threads. I ll post some remarks anyway.

I like that you are dedicating more slots to clock. Even without mana denial the Nacatl/Tarm will have similar effects with the spell denial and board control.

I also like they way you are using the slots addressing Storm. I have learned not to overdue against combo/storm. It is important that you address storm with multiple effects. Canonist alone doesn't help. Canonist/TeeG becomes extremely hard to break taking the clock into consideration. You added Korlis and went lower on teeg/canon. I personally think that Canonist should be 4x. I am a fan of easily castable bears these days allowing me to run a stable mana base. Tarm/Confidant/Canonist/Magus of the Moon/Glowriders. With acceleration you will always drop a turn 1 bear followed by a turn 2 magus or glowrider.

Lavamancer is strong when it matters. Stings is nice vs Tinker and to gain a tempo when you are pounding away his life with tarm/nacatl against aggro.

Without analysing/testing in depth I think this deck has a strong match against aggro and stop should be no problem either. You will also be able to roll over control with those shusher/reb/teeg/vial. I fear that the combo matchup won't be that great. You need more in my opinion. Also against Oath problems will be present. 4 Path of the Exile might not cut it in the SB. You will have to try to race him but little can be done when that oath resolves. Stinger will not help. Dredge is fast but you do have clamps and Korlis. Teeg/Tarm helps but it is still a hard matchup I fear.

Do you have a meta with a lot of control/tez, aggro and shop?

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« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2009, 01:15:29 pm »

Lavamancer is strong when it matters.

I don't know.  I think the Lavamancer is pretty weak.  He has some negative synergy with Goyf, and in a deck with only 4 cards that aren't permanents, will his ability be able to be activated all that often?  I'd rather play Fanatic, Martyr of Ashes, or Gorilla Shaman in that slot instead.

Peace,

-Troy
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nineisnoone
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« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2009, 02:36:22 pm »

I'm not that sold on Lavamancer as a generic slot. 

But as a card, I don't think the negative synergy is all that bad because you don't have to use the ability every turn just for damage.  Also don't forget that you can Skullclamp a creature to the graveyard, Stingscourger automatically goes to the graveyard, and Korlis can go to the graveyard on command.  The turn slow down compared to Fanatic is mostly relevant against Welder, but otherwise I'd rather have him stay in play against a BUG deck.  Letting them draw 1 more card with Confidant is worth being able to kill every Confidant they play (hypothetically).

But yeah, despite the above defense of him, he's more in there for raw potential yield rather than being particularly desired effect. 

Shaman is in consideration.  Probably the third choice. Welder is my second just to screw with Staxs, deal with opposing Welders, hopefully Weld out Time Vault.  Not as consistent as Shaman, but more back for the buck.  I guess I should also put Elvish Scrapper/Scavenger Folk there since it's 1 mana for any artifact so it can hit a Vault easily and it wouldn't require an artifact to Weld in which is a significant advantage in comparison. 

Hmm... he actually is starting to look better the more I think about it.  Mostly because 8 main deck artifact hate cards would be more than enough to cut the Artifact Mutations in the sideboard. Hmm...  I suppose Goblin Vandal might also be a consideration needs an attack step. 

Never thought I'd ask this... but Welder or Elvish Scrapper?  Tenatively, I leaning towards Scrapper...

Cannonist could be a 4 of, but there isn't really anything I would cut for it.  I'm anticipating more Tezz than storm (I think storm is stronger, but numbers seem to indicate otherwise).  If I anticipated Storm I would main deck the Pyrostatic Pillars giving me 12 anti-storm cards. I feel Pillars are a better option that Cannonist anyways since Pillar doesn't care about artifact bounce and is much better in multiples.

If by acceleration you mean Chrome/Diamond/Spirit Guides, I'll pass.  I've never been a huge fan of any of them.  I don't know if it pays off on average, but I've always found that they tend to create bad hands more frequently than just curving at 1.  So just chalk it up to risk aversiveness.  I also wouldn't run Magus here (and generically am not especially fond of).

I don't really see too much Oath nor do I expect to see it as I don't think it's that strong.  On consideration Stingscourger can't bounce an Akroma so that should be considered. That might lead to some changes, but then again it might not.  Also do not forget that Korlis buys you a turn on any non-lethal Oath and this is where Path over Swords gives you your biggest advantage.  If I were to run any more Oath answers, it would likely be due to SB slots just opening up.

Ichorid, I actually don't have that much experience playing against (I do play it sometimes though).  But against the faster versions, it's really just a matter of the amount of hate you bring with your deck.  I play a slower version, which this deck would have a bit more game against.  Realistically speaking though, addressing Ichorid is always less a matter of addressing Ichorid then it is figuring out how to address every other match-up with fewer sideboard cards. 

That being said... I'll tenatively add Scrappers for Lavamancers and cut Artifact Mutation (funny since they were the card that brought me to this deck again) from the SB and leave them as questionable.
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« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2009, 02:12:28 pm »

Have you thought about sideboarding seedtime? It's usually relevant and helps your clock.
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nineisnoone
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« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2009, 05:00:53 pm »

Have you thought about sideboarding seedtime? It's usually relevant and helps your clock.

Not really familiar with the card.  Can you say more about your experience with it?

My main issue is that realistically speaking the only spells that will get play on your turn are counter spells.  If you have only 3 lands, you can't cast your creature and play this card.  And they can't counter Vial so it won't work with that.  So as I see it, I'd rather play REB.  I suppose there is also EOT Thirst, but if they don't do that you likely left mana unused. 
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« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2009, 08:59:50 pm »

I realize this is rwg but with your resent favor with Tideholow Sculler I am surprised that you haven't tried to incorporate his disruption ability.  Welder wouldn't be a bad choice after that.

I like the fanatic also and see good synergy.

With skullclamp active ichorid, if you do see some, is going to have a harder time without their bridges.  And you play a ton of creatures to match up with.


Later,
Dr.KnowMaD
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nineisnoone
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« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2009, 11:51:37 pm »

I could splash black and Tidehollow here, but it seems a bit unnecessary.  I can't really see what card I would want to cut for it.  Plus, once I splash black... it'll likely turn into an entirely different deck.
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« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2009, 12:05:12 am »

I would run anything over Elvish Scrapper.  It can't attack and use its ability, it's not card advantage, it's a 1/1, it's basically terrible.  You already have Tin-Street; you don't need both.
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« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2009, 06:16:10 am »

Flooded Strand should be wooded foothill
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nineisnoone
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« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2009, 01:14:16 pm »

Flooded Strand should be wooded foothill

dur.  fixed.

I would run anything over Elvish Scrapper.  It can't attack and use its ability, it's not card advantage, it's a 1/1, it's basically terrible.  You already have Tin-Street; you don't need both.

I like it since it's vialable and quasi-instant speed. Things that Tin-Street fails at.  You do get into situations where they can play out their artifacts and combo out without passing the turn, so I do want some protection in that case.  Zealot might be better for that tho.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2009, 07:08:13 pm by nineisnoone » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2009, 05:25:51 pm »

I'll post a list for rgw vial tomorrow.  We'll see if I scrub with it or not at the icbm open. I think it'll be pretty strong, but I've hardly been able to get any testing in.
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« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2009, 07:48:10 pm »

Well, I did kind of poorly at the tournament, finishing 3-2, but I don't feel like my list was too bad for something with no testing behind it.  I did not get the survival engine going too often, but that is partially because it drew force of wills all day.  If it had resolved in one of my games when I cast it on turn one, I would have won...so that's something going for it. On the other hand, I did wind up siding it out a few times over the course of the day.  This was the list:

3 survival of the fittest
1 squee
4 goyf
4 nacatl
1 canonist
2 teeg
1 ronom unicorn
1 viridian zealot
1 stingscourger
4 fanatic
4 vial
2 vexing shusher
2 SSG
2 ESG
4 taiga
3 savannah
2 plateau
3 windswept heath
2 wooded foothills
1 forest
1 plains
3 mox
1 lotus
2 seal of primordium
1 seal of cleansing
3 swords to plowshares
2 gorilla shaman

i beat oath, painter and tez. I lost to tez and painter.
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nineisnoone
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« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2009, 08:29:50 pm »

Sorry to hear about didn't do so well.

Can you give some commentary to your card selection? 
It seems like this list is much slower and less aggro oriented then your last list. 

It also seems like you are anticipating a lot of Oath with the main deck Ronom, Zealot, and Seals instead of Tin Street Hooligan.  How did they play out in your Oath match-up?  Did you feel it was necessary?  I've always been leary of anticipating Oath too much.  I've always felt that Oath often gets just as much of an advantage by over-boarding then anything else.  There isn't much you can do against a fast Oath anyways, but you can always push to out-race a mid-game Oath.

And on a similar note, why did you cut Tin-Street?  One of the issues I've had with him is that in this environment, he too often becomes a 2 cost sorcery speed Oxidize.  I.e. you are going to want to keep him in hand, to hit relevant artifacts (Vault/Key/Painter/Grindstone) rather than destroying a potentially irrelevant Mox.  I tried to address this issue with Elvish Scrapper.  Was that your approach in bringing in Zealot and the Seals or am I off base?

Lastly, in every thread I've frequented in I've always turned down the use of Spirit Guides.  How did you feel they impacted your deck?

Survival also looks like a really strong addition to the deck.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2009, 08:59:38 pm by nineisnoone » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2009, 09:58:47 pm »

I was wondering what you do against combo chief? I only see a Teeg and 2 Canonists as anti-combo (granted you can get them via Survival, however that can be a bit slow). Were you just not expecting it, or is your disruption in the SB?
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« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2009, 12:34:44 am »

The unicorn is the only dedicated anti-oath card, although I was expecting it in some amount (and it showed to about that expectation.)  The seals and zealot do a killer job of getting in the way of time vault combo and painter- things that tin street just can't get the job done at as a sorcery speed effect.  The survivals accomplish what skullclamp has in the past, but more consistantly and with the ability to feed me the appropriate creatures at the right times.   

Regarding spirit guides, they serve a multi-layered purpose.  The allow you to slide a turn one seal or survival against a drain deck, forcing them to force if they want to counter it.  I'll always take that exchange if they do, but if they don't then you've got your relevant permanent and they're unlikely to get there.  With shusher, it lets you use him when they don't think you can- getting them to use a fow on a goyf that's going to resolve is even better than them not using that fow because they can see you have a mana up.  Additionally, the SSG allows for reb before your turn one on that draw, which can be relevant.  The last usage is that you can use survival to ramp mana when you're stuck below where you need to be- for instance, against oath I had two mana with an active survival. He had resolved oath.  I was holding a kgrip, but two mana doesn't get there.  Eot I survival for an esg, and damned if that oath didn't come right off the board.

As for the anti-combo plan...well, you pretty much got it.  Actually, I only had one canonist, not two. Wink  Anway, I expected minimal combo (i think two showed up, maybe three) and I was rocking both children of korlis and pyro pillar in the board.  My board was thrown together really hastily, but what I played was 2 grip, 3 pillar, 3 children, 2 reb, 2 pyro, 1 stp, 2 pithing needle.
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« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2009, 01:09:44 am »

I'm definitely going to add Survival over Skullclamp.  A great addition!

How often did you find (or hypothetically do you think you would find) it useful to run the token Squee?  Sure you can tutor him up and then get + 1 card advantage every turn.  It would almost certainly be a poor draw without Survival.  And I'm not even certain I would bother tutoring for it despite the long-term advantages to it.  That only leaves the situation where you have them both in hand.

As such, I'm think that it'll be passable to neglect running the card.  Am I completely off-base here?  Or did you find you rarely wanted the card advantage?
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« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2009, 02:28:00 am »

U NEVER run out of a team with squee.  I would be ESTATIC if you didn't have Squee, because the second you didn't activate survival, I would firespout your board.  With Squee, you have a returning threat, every turn, via survival.  It's worth running for that reason alone.
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« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2009, 05:52:54 am »

I think Survival is interesting overall. Playing a great deal of Oath of Ghouls I can surely see Survival as an alternative engine that keeps you going. Survival and Vial gives you great flexibility.
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« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2009, 12:59:26 pm »

U NEVER run out of a team with squee.  I would be ESTATIC if you didn't have Squee, because the second you didn't activate survival, I would firespout your board.  With Squee, you have a returning threat, every turn, via survival.  It's worth running for that reason alone.

Firespout?  People run Firespout? 

But I suppose addressing mass removal would likely be worth the 1 main deck slot.  It also can be a recurring blocker if you let your Vial pump to 3 which can be decent in some cases.

I was going to consider discussing the merits of this versus Skullclamp, but I think the singleton Squee would make it clearly in Survival's favor.  As you mentioned, it covers the mass removal issue that Skullclamp was largely a defense for.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 01:26:40 pm by nineisnoone » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2009, 06:45:30 pm »

Been looking for a card to that could deal with Shroud/Protection Red (for Archangel and Akroma) in  {R} {G} {W}  and came across this:

Tariff
 {1} {W}
Sorcery
Each player sacrifices the creature he or she controls with the highest converted mana cost unless he or she pays that creature's mana cost. If two creatures a player controls are tied for highest cost, that player chooses one.

8 mana with those color requirements should be pretty much impossible to save it.  You might also not be able to pay for it at times, but 4 mana is entirely possible.  And even if you can't pay for it, the pay off (typically not losing) is more important than the drawback (losing a random 2 drop).  Sadly a sorcery though.

Though the comparison is fairly irrelevant since I can't run Cruel Edict in this deck, it is modestly better in some respect since it'll always get their best creature.  Never a man land, token creature, or a Cursecatcher.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 06:51:34 pm by nineisnoone » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2009, 06:59:46 pm »

People do actually board firespout around here enough that it's relevant.  The squee is the only thing that makes the survival engine good enough to play over clamp. Continuous card advantage is something that is difficult to accomplish in these colors, and survival/squee gets there.  You're right that it's often a dead draw without survival, but that's an acceptable tradeoff. As you mentioned though, every so often it can become an infi-blocker. I had exactly the scenario you suggested going against a 7/10 on sunday.  Tariff just seems kind of pointless.  If they have an akroma, i'll swords it or lose. If they have an angel, i'll kill it by attacking or i'll lose.  Basically, if they get oath active you're in a bad way, so it's better to board with the intention of not allowing that than to board based on already being backed into a corner.
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« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2009, 06:25:15 pm »

As far as Oath goes, I'd disagree.  But that's probably more because my Swords are in the SB and not in the main deck.  If the question is Tariff or Swords against Oath, I'd say it's much closer.  However, I neglected that I don't want those Swords (or Paths soon) just for Oath but for opposing aggro match-ups as well where the drawback to Tariff compared to Paths is too much.

I'm still happy with Scrapper, despite seemingly universal dismay of it as a card choice.  Again, it's a random beater, chump blocker, can be thrown away via Survival, goes down on turn 1, can be Vialed, and destroys Vault/Painter at quasi-instant speed. 

I've decided to follow chief in the complete abandonment of Tin-Street, and have added 2x Zealots which give me some enchantment hate in the main deck (and sideboard) and to serve as more quasi-instant artifact hate.

I like Survival a great deal so far and went up to 4x.  Sure, it's dead in multiples, but unless they are going to win once I pass the turn it is practically a must-counter so multiples are fairly irrelevant. Survival + Squee + Shusher is insane.  Uncounterable search, uncounterable spells, and uncounterable card advantage.  I don't think I'd ever go back to Skullclamp. 

This is either the epitome of genius or pure unadulterated jank, but Anger?  G to give all my creatures forever Haste.  Definitely make Scrapper scrappier.

I've changed the mana base to focus more heavily on green as you need it for Survival and Zealot.  I think I added another land or two as well.

Put in 2x Jotun Grunts.  Yeah, just don't shuffle back things named Squee or Anger and you're fine.  It let's you recycle the stuff you threw away for Survival and then tutor it up again.  And even if you DID put them back into your library, you would just Survival for them again anyways.  It's fun times with all the sacrificing creatures.


Saffi Eriksdotter instead.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 12:45:01 am by nineisnoone » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2009, 09:21:40 am »

The more I read about Survival the more it reminds me of the black Oath. These are the pro/cons to consider

I realize this thread is not about Oath versus Survival but still I think it is an interesting intermezzo.

Oath is not dead in multiples.
Survival goes to deck not grave and so is much much versatile.
Oath is free, it triggers.
Oath is not instant speed
Survival is.

If you ask me survival is better than Oath in getting the wanted creatures in your hand. That is the essence of both cards. I would run 4x as well but hell I also dare to run chrome mox so ignore me Smile
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« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2009, 10:02:49 pm »

It might even work well with Oath of Ghouls.  That might be a bit excessive, but an active Survival would definitely keep the creatures going to your Graveyard.  It really turns every Survival into a {G} discard a creature card, search for two creature cards and put them into your deck.

I've had a little more time to test Anger, and I definitely feel like he is a good deal for the price.{G} {G} to search and discard Anger and search for whatever creature you need is well worth it.  Also allowing you to Vial in a Scrapper and instantly destroy an artifact is a huge benefit as well. 

Anger is great when Squee is bad.  Namely when you have plenty of creatures in hand and want to play them rather then arbitrarily tutor to gain card advantage.  Speeding you up a turn is huge.  I'm almost certain that these are more janky than good, but I'm considering playing Dryad Arbor and Thunder-Thrash Elder.

{2} {R}
Devour 3 (As this comes into play, you may sacrifice any number of creatures. This creature comes into play with three times that many +1/+1 counters on it.)
1/1

Dryad Arbor just because there are times when I wish I could search for a permanent mana source, and Dryad Arbor is just that.  It's the right color too, as I mostly need it to free up a {G} each turn to use Survival.

Thunder-Trash Elder namely because it gets huge and can be Hasted with Anger. 3 creatures is fairly easy land.  Once they get into the red zone of their life = 1 + 3x (number of creatures), you just EOT for Elder.  Play it, devour and win.  Getting a few 1/1's is easy.  If Dryad is played, you can {G} {G} to search and discard Anger, and search for Dryad Arbor.  This leaves you with 1 creature and {G} that you can tap (due to Anger giving Arbor haste).  You only need 2 more creatures on the board to bust out next turn with a 10/10 with Haste.  It works especially well with Korlis and Scrapper as they often just sit on the board waiting to be sacrificed, and not contributing a great deal to the clock.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 10:16:00 pm by nineisnoone » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2009, 10:39:20 pm »

I feel pretty strongly that the correct approach to use here is to bring the new engine into an already viable deck, and not allow that new engine to become its own entity.  If you make the deck about survival, I think that you will find yourself with too many less than impressive draws when you don't have it active.
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« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2009, 11:32:15 pm »

If either ghouls or survival are used, arbor seems like a good addition, making recurable blockers and such, and good stuff to pitch as well. You can also sac them to reliquary, too.

Have you thought about chalice? In an aggro deck, if I can't run null rod, I think chalice is almost a must have. what is your early-game disruption? I also think that that many scourgers may not be necessary, and can probably safely  moved to the side. unless you really do see a whole lot of creature based decks, especially if you have scourgers.
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nineisnoone
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« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2009, 12:23:19 am »

Changed Jotun Grunt for Saffi Erkidotter.  A little guarantee that at least 1 of the disruption creatures will stay on the board post Firespout/Pyroclasm/Massacre. 

@Chief - I agree with what you are saying in the sense that you don't want be too reliant on Survival.  However, are you saying then that you do not like the additions of Anger, Dryad, and Elder?  Elder is more just a fun idea I had, initially it was something I thought of as anti-Oath tech.  Trading tokens for a huge Elder. 

Dryad is debatable, but probably excessive.  I changed my mana base a little bit to get more green since I had the Dryad idea, so it might not prove necessary (which it never really was I suppose). 

However, I do think Anger is a solid card.  Accelerating the deck an entire turn, makes it worthwhile imo, even if it isn't a great draw on it's own.  It's at least as high-impact as Squee is, albeit in the completely opposite way.

@Boogie - Scourger is basically anti-DSC.  Everything at least runs DSC these days.  It's slower than Swords/Path but it doesn't give them anything in return and the slow down is pretty much irrelevant since it won't kill you by then anyways.  As a bonus, mid-game you get can Vial it in making it uncounterable. 

The strategy is just to directly prevent their win conditions.  A Scrapper that has passed the turn keeps Vault/Painter from winning the game.  Same with Korlis against Storm.  An early creature buys you time until they can deal with it.   The deck basically just lets an opposing deck go for what it's worth up until they actually win the game.  There is no actual "disruption."  This is why Stingscourger is so important.  You have lots of little ways to prevent their Plan A.  You have Stingscourger for Plan B.  So they go looking for their token bounce, trying to race your ability to get another relevant win prevention on the board. And hopefully before they remove it and win, you have already beat them to death.

Once they go to the SB to bring in answers, you bring in additional hate for the match-up.  Storm, you get Pillar.  Artifact combo, you get Pithing Needle.  Both of those cards notably ignore creature-wipe cards and were selected for that reason.  Finally, any fish or aggro deck, bring in Path. 

REB comes in depending on how much blue they have and what kind of blue they have.  You definitely want it if they bring in Threads of Disloyaty or Propoganda or Old Man of the Sea.  Note: also remember that you can Stingscourger any Threaded creature back to your hand.  I typically look to bring it in whenever I am on the draw against a predominantly blue deck to compensate for going second.

Pithing Needle could be Seals, but realistically speaking I can just name Vault/Grindstone for the same effect and for cheaper.  It can be a bit of a gamble if you don't know which they are running, but in that case name Vault and bring in REB to deal with a Painter calling Blue.  Sometimes it's also fun to play a turn 1 Pithing Needle naming "Polluted Delta."  Sometimes I'll also bring in Pithing Needle "Wasteland."  Lastly, it gives me a solid anti-Ichorid card. 

The Needles could be Seals, but I'm not sure if that's optimal.  Seals would help against Oath and Stax, but don't get the anti-Ichorid in the SB now.  Given my deck, I worry more about Ichorid than Oath and Stax.  I have 6 cards that can destroy artifacts of any size already in the main.  Oath, I just race.  Either they play Akroma/Hellkite and you race and hold them back with Path.  Or they SB in Archangel, and you tutor Anger with Survival and you just out race the much slower Archangel.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 04:11:34 am by nineisnoone » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2009, 10:33:15 pm »

Explain to me again how you "race the much slower archangel."

Gaddock teeg plus 4x tutorable children of korlis and 2 saffi says that the list you're running has a winnable game 1 vs ichorid.  Just throwing that out there.

I had tested anger previously, and found it to be less than impressive.  Most of the time it cost me a turn of actually playing a dude to put it in the bin unless it was the mid game, and frankly I don't feel like the few times in the mid game where I can cut a turn off by getting up 3/4 mana are worth drawing crappy anger most of the time.  I already have to run one dead card to make the engine work (squee), and I don't like the idea of adding another.  Your draws need to be as consistent as you're able to make them for your deck to function well.  This philosophy goes even more strongly for the other targets you've mentioned.  Play them if you like- as of right now, they haven't made the cut in my deck.

4x stingscourger is too many IMO.  Do you need the ability to answer dsc? Yes. I would, however, prefer and answer that also takes care of goyf, or welder, or painter, or any other dude.  You swords/path a dude and it's GONE gone.  You scourger it and it'll be back. For painter, that means that unless they're dying they probably don't care that you bounced it.  One scourger, or if you're REALLY worried then two, is plenty with the survival plan. You can access it when you want it, and you won't draw it when it's crap too much.
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« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2009, 04:15:07 am »

By race, I meant getting 8 power on the board so I can attack and kill it.  I run more creatures more than your list, so maybe it's a little bit easier.  I didn't necessarily mean that to come across as saying the match-up is easy.  If it was that simple, then it would be useless to address it.  But that is what I meant by it.  4x Korlis and 2x Saffi does help though, the ability to regain non-lethal life can help you buy the turns that you need.  Survival and Anger, if played before the Oath, are big helps in this respect as well. 

I can see your point on Anger, the Ichorid match-up (which I suppose is referencing the Needles in the SB) and Stingscourger. 

As as Anger goes, I've never really had those same frustrations with the card.  At most I found it extraneous, but never really bad in the long run.  Maybe, it's the 4th Survival or relative creature count.  Yes, sometimes using Survival does interfere with playing creatures, but that's not so different with Anger any other use of Survival.  You do need to Survival twice, but you don't necessarily have to bin it immediately. 

I do think you're right on the Stingscourger.  I hadn't really noticed since I was just throwing them away with Survival anyways.  I'll leave it at 2 since at the moment, Path/Swords are not what is coming in for them and yeah, I'm a bit paranoid.

Seals for Needles.  Ichorid is decent match-up.  Doesn't hurt to have a better plan against Oath. Plus, Seals are probably good in the Ichorid match-up anyways since Leyline is their main defense against you just blowing up all of their bridges.  Not sure, if that actually means I'd board them in, just saying.

3   Windswept Heath
3   Wooded Foothill
3   Savannah     
3   Taiga     
1   Plateau     
1   Plains
2   Forest
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Ruby   
1   Mox Emerald
1   Black Lotus   

4   Wild Nacatl   
4   Children of Korlis   
4   Elvish Scrapper
4   Tarmogoyf   
2   Vexing Shusher
2   Gaddock Teeg
2   Stingscourger
2   Ethersworn Canonist   
2   Viridian Zealot
1   Squee
1   Anger
                 
1   Enlightened Tutor
4   AEther Vial   
4   Survival of the Fittest
1   Pyrostatic Pillar
1   Seal of Primordium
1   Choke

SB
2   Saffi Eriksdotter
4   Path of Exile
3   Red Elemental Blast
3   Pyrostatic Pillar
3   Seal of Primordium

Edit: Minor Changes (Enlightened Tutor and a few more MD enchantments from SB + Choke). Saffi is iffy.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 02:02:14 pm by nineisnoone » Logged

I laugh a great deal because I like to laugh, but everything I say is deadly serious.
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