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Author Topic: Disappointing finish @ ICBM Open (top 8 report)  (Read 6853 times)
smutko
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« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2009, 05:58:54 pm »

Smutko: Did you consider boarding out the topdeck tutors?  I've heard of people boarding out Mystical especially and Vamp far before they would some of the accelerants because they are also -cards.  At least Mana Crypt and Mana Vault stick around after you use them.
For the decklist as i ran it at that tournament, I didn't have much I felt like bringing in, so there were only so many cards I was going to take out.  Had I more cards for the mirror, I may have decided differently, but at the time my logic was thus:

Regarding vault: as far as I'm concerned, this doesn't stick around after you cast it, but is a colorless dark rit unless you've got a key.  I'd often prefer to skip a draw to potentially tutor up the win than pay 4 on my upkeep to untap my artifact.
Regarding crypt: my impression of this card is that it's useful for a quick ramping in the early game.  If you don't have any immediate use for the mana, so you hold on to it, or if there a bunch of turns after you cast it, it gets pretty bad.

  Regarding the tutors: the deck has three game winning combos: tinker + counterspells, tez + counterspells, key + vault + counterspells.  The tutors help you put those combos together, and once you do that, the game is over, and it doesn't matter how many cards you spent to do it.  How does this jive with treating the matchup as a regular control mirror?  Because the more mana you have, the more counters you can cast in a turn, and the more likely you are to win a counter war.  Having more mana also lets you not tap out when you cast your scroll, tfks and the like, so you're more likely to cast them rather than just sitting back on untapped blue mana, and your opponent is more likely to let them resolve in the face of your untapped blue mana.
  Additionally, tutors can act as pseudo duresses.  If you don't know what's in your opponent's hand, and they cast a tutor to your one counter in hand, you're put in a tough position.  If they already have a game winner in hand, they could be getting the force to push it through, and you lose if the tutor resolves.  If they already have a counter in hand, they can get the game winner, and you lose if the tutor resolves.  If you think they already have a counter or a game winning card, you're pretty much forced to counter the tutor and bluff further counters in hand.  Essentially, the tutor just duressed your counter.  Being able to put opponents in that situation, especially if you win when the tutor resolves, is good enough to spend a card if it resolves.
  Lastly, having the tutors makes for strong gifts without losing your good cards.

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oneofchaos
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« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2009, 09:43:25 pm »

I played better than my opponent, and lost.  Better lucky than good, like I said.
I'm curious, can you point to any particularly awesome decisions you made?  I'm not trying to be offensive here, but I keep hearing people equate "outplaying" with "beat" and in Vintage more than any other format, I'm not convinced it's true.

I made this statement based on my opponent's first turn mainphase vampiric tutor, which made no sense to me.   However, I'd rather just drop the statement, as I said I was on tilt, and I don't feel like the long discussion on this.

Quote
Did you consider boarding out the topdeck tutors?  I've heard of people boarding out Mystical especially and Vamp far before they would some of the accelerants because they are also -cards. 

I know this isn't directed at me, but I figured I'd respond: 

My board actually for the matchup was -1 Engineered Explosives, -1 Mystical Tutor, and -1 Merchant Scroll for +2 Duress and +1 Red blast.  I think a Relic may have been there, but that was the board as I remember it.  I dont' board out Vamp because on End Step it just can get any bomb and win the game.  I hate Merchant Scroll in Drain mirrors because it's sorcery speed, and makes your Ancestral Recall way too overcosted. 


[/quote]

I tend to board out mystical and merchant scroll for reasons outlined above also.  Merchant scroll just allows you to be destroyed by duress, it's not an amazing drain sink, and it won't often get the cards you want in the mirror.  I like to keep in my vampiric tutor because drain matchups your manabase is safe, so you can start grabbing underground seas.  As Rich said, topdeck tutors undo the hard work as you jockey for card advantage.  Vampiric grabs any card you need, which makes it amazing as an end of turn sculpt the perfect hand.  I did start loving the topdeck tutors a lot more when I started playing SDT, as it allows you to usually sculpt a nice hand and then you can tutor-draw a card and go nuts.
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Somebody tell Chapin how counterbalance works?

"Of all the major Vintage archetypes that exist and have existed for a significant period of time, Oath of Druids is basically the only won that has never won Vintage Championships and never will (the other being Dredge, which will never win either)." - Some guy who does not know vintage....
OwenTheEnchanter
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« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2009, 10:30:07 pm »

I don't think I would board out Merchant Scroll against any deck, it's just that good.
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LordHomerCat
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« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2009, 01:17:22 am »

I don't think I would board out Merchant Scroll against any deck, it's just that good.

I rarely board it out as well.  Mostly against Sphere type decks, because it gets really inefficient really quick there.  But not in a control mirror, Ancestral and Force are too good for that.
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OwenTheEnchanter
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« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2009, 01:49:11 am »

Even against shops, for one I usually have much worse cards to side out, and for two it usually gets a Rebuild or Hurkyl's Recall type card.
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« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2009, 02:24:11 am »

I usually would board out Echoing Truth too, but I wanted an answer for my opponent's Darksteel Colossus.
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LordHomerCat
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« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2009, 03:51:50 pm »

Even against shops, for one I usually have much worse cards to side out, and for two it usually gets a Rebuild or Hurkyl's Recall type card.

I haven't played a rebuild in the board for a while; if I did, I agree that Scroll would stay in.
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