New Worldgorger Dragon Combo -- Still Viable?

[sephorusFR]

Isn't blazing archon a better choice than platinum ? It can't be oxidized or w/e and prevent Icchroid from racing you.
It can't be tinekred but it cna be easily animated.

[Noah]

true, but it also doesn't double as a Storm defense too. The fact that you can Tinker it and Animate it in my mind is just better.

[sephorusFR]

true, but it also doesn't double as a Storm defense too. The fact that you can Tinker it and Animate it in my mind is just better.

I agree on the storm argument. I'll give archon a shot anyway as there is few storm overthere

[sephorusFR]

OK, so this is the version I currently test and will fire-proof this week-end :

http://talkmtg.com/Deck.aspx?DeckID=130

I tried to mix the oath transformationnal SB and some bounces

[fury]

OK, so this is the version I currently test and will fire-proof this week-end :

http://talkmtg.com/Deck.aspx?DeckID=130

I tried to mix the oath transformationnal SB and some bounces

Hi french man

The list seems to be well built ! What are your sideboard tables against the field, and especially the matchup against control ? No more Mulldrifter ?

Concerning the previous discussion, I'm not convinced by Archon against Ichorid. When Archon reaches the table, Ichorid has already start to dredge, and can use ways to bounce Archon (manaichorid) or can reanimate Angel of Despair. I would better try to race Ichorid by passing its disrupt and graveyard hate, with bounces and the quick WGD combo.

[sephorusFR]

The list seems to be well built ! What are your sideboard tables against the field, and especially the matchup against control ? No more Mulldrifter ?

I have to rework the side to incorporate Carpet of Flowers back but I dunno what to cut. Same thing with mulldrifter.
Basically, control match-up rely on abeyance + them siding gyard hate while I turn into oath. I'm a bit unhappy cause CoF was a real blast in those situation

Concerning the previous discussion, I'm not convinced by Archon against Ichorid. When Archon reaches the table, Ichorid has already start to dredge, and can use ways to bounce Archon (manaichorid) or can reanimate Angel of Despair. I would better try to race Ichorid by passing its disrupt and graveyard hate, with bounces and the quick WGD combo.

Yup, few tests shown that it was indeed sucky hence back to PA and bounce

[Chiz]

I'm doing great with Worldgorger Dragon decks since... at least 3-4 months, it's a viable deck for sure...
I played the oath in the sideboard, but last weekend I wanted to try the Time Vault Combo. I was happy with the turnout (I split the final. That was a small tourney (19 players), but still...). I found it interresting that you can sideout 1-2 Worldgorger dragon and can combo post-side with Time Vault or the Dragon!  Here is the list I played. The Needle side should have been a Platinium Angel...  I wasn't able to make two decks (For me and a friend) 


Martin Bonneville
Deck: From the Vault: Dragons

4 Worldgorger Dragon
2 Oona, Queen of Fae
4 Necromancy
3 Annimate Dead
1 Dance of the Death
4 Force of Will
3 Duress
4 Intuition
4 Deep Analysis
3 Read the Runes
4 Bazaar of Bagdad
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault

Sideboard
1 Tinker
3 Transmute Artifact
1 Time Vault
3 Voltaic Key
2 Chains of Vapors
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sundering Titan
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Proteginus
1 Pithing Needle

[sephorusFR]

I'm doing great with Worldgorger Dragon decks since... at least 3-4 months, it's a viable deck for sure...
I played the oath in the sideboard, but last weekend I wanted to try the Time Vault Combo. I was happy with the turnout (I split the final. That was a small tourney (19 players), but still...). I found it interresting that you can sideout 1-2 Worldgorger dragon and can combo post-side with Time Vault or the Dragon!  Here is the list I played. The Needle side should have been a Platinium Angel...  I wasn't able to make two decks (For me and a friend) 

Nice list. A few questions :
 * why 2 oona instead of oona + other critter like witness or mulldrifter or inkwell ?
 * How was Transmute Artifact ?
 * Did you faced any null rod deck or not ? How did the opponents reacted to 2nd and 3rd game ?

[Mantis]

You can Animate Dead an Oona and win even without the Bazaar. Eternal Witness or Mulldrifter aren't nearly as good when you Animate them. Besides, you can still win if they activate Tormod's Crypt on you and remove one Oona you still have a second one left to win with, so that's the reason for no Inkwell I guess.

On the other hand Inkwell could be great against Fish, with Stifle or STP.

[Chiz]

* why 2 oona instead of oona + other critter like witness or mulldrifter or inkwell ?

I played 1 Oona and 1 Mulldrifter before. I Find that 2 Oona's is better. Oona gave me at least 1-2 games per tournament. It's good to reanimate, for sur, but it's not that hard to hardcast it.
I like to be able to pitch a Oona's in a FoW with the ability to still combo out, that's a nice bonus.
By the way... What is the real advantage of Witness!? It's hard to cast and most of the time, I prefer to annimated Oona's than Witness.

* How was Transmute Artifact ?

It was good. Gave me at least a game.

* Did you faced any null rod deck or not ? How did the opponents reacted to 2nd and 3rd game ?

No, No Null Rod. I didn't expect to see a lot of Null Rod in that meta and I was right. Against Rod, Oah sideboard is probably better!
That said... People was a little surprised game 2 and 3, becaue they know that I usually play Oath in the sideboard. I won with Time Vault with Leyline in play and won with Dragon with CotV at 1 and 2 (Shutting down time vault combo). People have to keep both graveyard hate and artifact hate post-sideboard because they don't know how you will win... I find it interresting!

As for Inkwell, could be in the sideboard for sur...

[sephorusFR]

By the way... What is the real advantage of Witness!? It's hard to cast and most of the time, I prefer to annimated Oona's than Witness.

It acts as a kill with ancestral recall and duress/FoW.
basically, you dump your whole library in the yard then reanimate eternal bringing back another animator. Reanimate dragon. In the dragon loop, witness let you get a card from your gyard each loop, thus drawing your graveyard. Get ancestral, 3x Duress 3x blue card and 3x FoW. Stop the dragon loop by targeting the witness with both animator. Dragon end up in yard and you get abck an animator. Play ancestral on opponent, duress him/FoW w/e he has and restart the dragon loop. Then you kill the opponent when he/she can't draw anymore.

[Purple Hat]

I don't think that's what he meant.  Witness can be useful because it turns all your animates into regrowths which can be nice.  In addition you can sometimes hardcast it off lotus to get back ancestral or something like that.

[Chiz]

I understand how to win with witness... But I don't see how it's better than Oona. Unless there is a Needle in play.
Yes, Witness can make animate dead become a regrowth which can sometimes be usefull. But Oona's make animate dead a winning condition, which is sometime really usefull! And Witness doesn't pitch to FoW...

By the way... It's not really more difficult to cast Oona's than Witness with a Lotus 
In fact, if there is some hate (The game last for some turns...), it's not hard to cast a Oona and win with her.

[Noah]

I think in the current Vintage, you need to be playing Tinker and Inkwell over 2 Oona. Extirpate kills you if yo play 2 of the same win condition. Inkwell is better then Oona anyways.

[John Jones]

I think in the current Vintage, you need to be playing Tinker and Inkwell over 2 Oona. Extirpate kills you if yo play 2 of the same win condition. Inkwell is better then Oona anyways.

Isn't oona the point of going infinite?

[Liiva]

I'm sure he means running Tinker, Inkwell and an Oona instead of 2 Oona, which I think is a good idea.

Going:
- 1 Oona
- 1 Necromany
+ 1 Tinker
+ 1 Inkwell

Seems like a good backup plan.

[swawagon]

Dimir Guildmage, U/B U/B
2/2
3U: Target player draws a card. Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery.
3B: Target player discards a card. Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery.

is a decent substitute for a second Oona if you really think you need it. It's basically the same win condition as Oona with infi mana (except you need blue mana instead of either color) - by drawing out there deck. Dimir Guildmage can still be pitched to Force, be easily hard cast, is a 2/2 beater. A bonus is its a discard outlet for your Dragons. Or it's an overcosted draw engine, or an overcosted discard element on an opponent too.


I'd like to hear more about the Time Vault, Voltaic Key sideboard. It seems to dodge all the regular hate people may bring in for Dragon, but what are you taking out? And I'm sure it's not hard, but what are would you actually kill with once in extra turns?

Also Tinker into Inkwell Leviathan, and the fact that Inkwell itself can be animated, does seem a pretty viable plan B that only takes 2 slots in the main - in a deck that already runs Bazaars and Read the Runes to filter through lots of cards. Plus running Tinker with the Time Vault, Voltaic Key sideboard all seems pretty synergistic. This may indeed be the way to go.

[sephorusFR]

I'm torn between the vault SB and the aggro plan packing 3 Tombstalker and 3 Tarmogoyf.

[Chiz]

Extirpate kills you if yo play 2 of the same win condition.

Hum... Not sure. Will they really lets you add an absurd amount of mana in your pool to extirpate the Oona when you target her with your annimated dead!? If so... You can cast/Flashback Deep Analysis, Intuition, Read the Runes to fin another Animate Dead (If you didn't have another one in hand!) and make a draw. Extirpte the Dragon is the way to go, no!?
By the way... Who plays Extirpate maindeck !?!?

Dimir Guildmage, U/B U/B
2/2
3U: Target player draws a card. Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery.
3B: Target player discards a card. Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery.

is a decent substitute for a second Oona if you really think you need it.

I find it a bad substitute... It doesn't have a big body to animate it and win. It doesn't makes useless all your opponent's TopTutor...

I'd like to hear more about the Time Vault, Voltaic Key sideboard. It seems to dodge all the regular hate people may bring in for Dragon, but what are you taking out?

Well... I played only a few matchups (one 19 players tourney, so 4 rounds + 2 more rounds (Top8 and Top4)), Not sure if I sideboard the right way... But well, That's what I did:

- If I think they have too much graveyard hate (Extirpate + Leyline):
- 4 Worldgorger Dragon
- 5/6/7 Annimate effect
+ Tinker
+ 3 Transmute Artifact
+ 3 Voltaic Key
+ Time Vault
+ Sundering Titan
+ Bounces (if needed)

I sideboarded this way sometimes too:
- 2 Worldgorger Dragon
- 1 Oona
- 3/4 Annimate effect
- 1 Deep Analysis
- 2/3 Duress/Read the Runes (Depending of the matchup)
+ Tinker
+ 3 Transmute Artifact
+ 3 Voltaic Key
+ Time Vault
+ Sundering Titan
+ Bounces (if needed)

That way, I can win with infinit Turns or Intuition for Dragons to combo out.

but what are would you actually kill with once in extra turns?

Cast Oona/Sundering Titan and win with them... If you can't attack (lets say they have Akroma out and Darksteel Colossus), deck them with Oona. You can easily deck them 5+ cards per turn tou take.

[fury]

Hi all,

Congratulations Chiz for your performance !

I have tested the KeyVault combo, it is very efficient, provided the metagame is not too artefact hateful. The idea of a double strategy with 2 WGD and the KeyVault Combo is quite surprising for the opponent. Generally speaking, he does hesitate to side in gravehate, because of the KeyVault combo. So he must face two types of different threats. Restoring the full WGD combo can be also surprising for him, while he tries to face both combos. Moreover, the presence of the WGD and KeyVault combos forces him to weak his own game plan.

Despite of theses  arguments, I would rather choose an aggro sideboard plan, instead of the KeyVault solution, because this is enough expected by most players in the current metagame. The proposition of SephorusFR sounds good to me (3 Tarmogoyf and 3 Tombstalker)

What do you think about the new card Wisescale Serpent ? Would you include it in an aggro strategy ? I didn't test it, but as we draw a lot in the WGD archetype, the serpent will be quickly powerful. Unfortunately, he doesn't have an evasion ability.

And what about Lich Lord of Unx as a new cheaper kill ?

[sephorusFR]

@fury :

Curren tested sideboard is : 
2 Thoughtseize
3 Tombstalker
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Echoing Truth
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild
3 Carpet of Flowers

I removed Energy flux casue the stax match-up is alreayd largely in our favor. I added a few bounce of various CC to go around calice and such things.
The seize are here for additional discard and carpet are for rapping Tezz deck.

Tarmo can go up to 6/7 which puts it on par with the 5/5 flying steack

[dicemanx]

+ 3 Transmute Artifact
+ 3 Voltaic Key
+ Time Vault
+ Sundering Titan

Chiz, this is a very interesting SB plan for WGD. So long as there is little Null Rod in the meta, it might even be a stronger option than the Oath plan. I wonder though if you perhaps considered Lim Dul's Vaults for tutoring to both assist the WGD combo andhelp assemble the Time Vault combo, or if you considered actually running TV main deck? I always consider the possibility of hybrid strategies for WGD whenever possible instead of strictly limiting the alternate plan to the SB.

On a very important side note: as I understand it, Transmute Artifact and Sundering Titan doesn't work...yet. There is still power level errata that SHOULD be removed from Transmute Artifact to allow the Titan to enter play even if you cannot pay the mana difference to keep it in play. I think we should petition WotC to de-errata TA.

3 Tombstalker
3 Tarmogoyf

You mention that the SB is tested - how have you been finding Tombstalkers? It seems like a cool idea, but I'm a little worried about the Tombstalkers cc - even though WGD is a "graveyard" deck, it isn't that easy to deposit 5-6 cards into the graveyard consistently. Would you not want to run all 4 Tarms ahead of a Tombstalker? Furthermore, I'm not sure I trust such beatdown strategies - it just seems so underpowered compared to oath, or even Mask-Naught. The Oath plan is really good against aggro strategies (Fish and Aggro-Shop) that SB anti-grave hate heavily, but I cannot see such a SB making a dent against those decks. Thoughts?

 My summer work schedule has changed so that I'll be able to resume playing in events, so expect some new WGD ideas from me soon!

[sephorusFR]

3 Tombstalker
3 Tarmogoyf

You mention that the SB is tested - how have you been finding Tombstalkers? It seems like a cool idea, but I'm a little worried about the Tombstalkers cc - even though WGD is a "graveyard" deck, it isn't that easy to deposit 5-6 cards into the graveyard consistently. Would you not want to run all 4 Tarms ahead of a Tombstalker? Furthermore, I'm not sure I trust such beatdown strategies - it just seems so underpowered compared to oath, or even Mask-Naught. The Oath plan is really good against aggro strategies (Fish and Aggro-Shop) that SB anti-grave hate heavily, but I cannot see such a SB making a dent against those decks. Thoughts?

Well, TS is actually pretty castable even with as few as 4 cards in the cemetery. I also found it animated a few time including a surprise buttsecks on an attackign platinum angel using bazaar+necromancy.. I usually pack them vs deck I want to confuse. I always let a few dragon inside so i can try to bait the combo, make opponents waste counters/stifles/we hate on the combo then just pull down a stalker. Ocassionaly, i do something silly like bazaar into mox/lotus & 3 random card for T1 stalker. It also improves late game when if ailed to combo due to counter and when the opponents runs out of threats/solution.

tarmo are more for the fish MU that I foudn problematic but mayeb cause i don't the experience needed

[fury]

@Dicemanx :

Good news that you take time to think about the Worldgorger archetype !

I agree with you concerning the removal of the power level errata of Transmute artifact. This would give us more possibilities with the following cards : Sundering Titan, Magister Sphinx, Sharuum+Triskelion, and any interesting artifact with a "comes into play" or "leaves play" ability. Another card which power level errata should be removed, and would be useful for the WGD archetype, is Abeyance. This card would be a stronger protection for the combo.

Concerning the aggro solution, this choice considers that the control machup is very difficult for Dragon. Especially against Remora and Tezz decks, the aggro solution allows to have a good beatdown power by making enough pressure on these types of builds, and facilitates the WGD combo if the beatdown power is countered.

But I agree that Tombstaker is quite expensive. I would prefer the new Alara card Lorescale Coatl. I have slightly tested it, it is amazing. Its casting cost of  seems to be quite expensive, but with the draw engine of the Worldgorger archetype, it can be very powerful in a few turns. Imagine that you have Bazaar of Bagdad and Deep Analysis, Coatl becomes 7/7 the turn after he comes into play. I test it with the WGD combo, it makes a lot of pressure against any archetype, and is not dependent on the graveyard like Tarmogoyf. Of course, we must splash for green mana, and build the sideboard with this constraint.

So another sideboard solution, instead of Tombstaker could be :

4 Lorescale Coatl
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tinker
1 Robot (Inkwell, Darksteel ?)
2 Thoughtseize (the metagame shows a lot of control builds)
3 Carpet of Flowers or 3 Engineer Explosives

[vartemis]

I agree with you concerning the removal of the power level errata of Transmute artifact. This would give us more possibilities with the following cards : Sundering Titan, Magister Sphinx, Sharuum+Triskelion, and any interesting artifact with a "comes into play" or "leaves play" ability.

As an aside, not only would this help dragon, but would make it a pseudo entomb for artifacts, and I think would be interesting to test in RU builds with welders.

j

[sephorusFR]

But I agree that Tombstaker is quite expensive. I would prefer the new Alara card Lorescale Coatl.

Oooh I see what you did there. I think I'll test this as soon as I finally get my hands on some coatl.

[sephorusFR]

Entomb is now unrestricted as B&R of June 19th.
Will it affect our list somehow ?

[Klep]

Don't necro month-old threads.  Start a new thread if you want to discuss this deck.
-Klep