New Worldgorger Dragon Combo -- Still Viable?

[dicemanx]

I'm not sure why people are so paranoid about Pithing Needle on Bazaar. One of the strengths of the WGDX approach is the reduced reliance on Bazaar, and it wasn't unusual in many of my past matches to activate Bazaar only once in a game. I've had to face first turn Needles and second turn Magus of the Moons and still managed to come out on top on the strength of spells like Read the Runes and Intuition along with exploiting the card drawing power of Deep Analysis.

Furthermore, there are some good ways of fighting against permanent based hate through mass sweepers - for instance, excellent choices include Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, and even Powder Keg. Of course simply including bounce spells might do the trick (Repeals mainly, as many of the hate cards are 0cc or 1cc, and we no longer need bounce for costlier spells like Leyline).

I wonder if in fact 3 maindeck Repeals is the way to go, as they can be used on your own Moxes to make your Bazaars better.

[Purple Hat]

Dragon is one of the faster and more consistent combo decks out there. There just also seems to be lots of splash hate for it.

I think this is the most important point people miss about dragon.  There SEEMS TO BE a lot of splash hate.  In reality you can just play around most of it, or apply so much pressure that your opponent can't win anyway.  In testing vs. Tezz my opponent scooped to my ripping bazaar after he successfully bounced my dragon.  The deck is WAY more resilient than people give it credit for.

[Negator13]

dicemanx, if you were to add 2 or 3 Repeals to a Dragon list, what would it look like?

[zeus-online]

The deck is WAY more resilient than people give it credit for.

QFT. Hate only becomes a problem if people are specificly targeting dragon, which i just can't see happening.

/Zeus

[dicemanx]

dicemanx, if you were to add 2 or 3 Repeals to a Dragon list, what would it look like?

There are way too many possible iterations to fully address this question, but here is a sample:


WGDXII
------

4 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae

4 Intuition
3 Read the Runes

4 Bazaar of Baghdad

3 Necromancy
3 Animate Dead
1 Dance of the Dead
---------------------
23 combo pieces


1 Mulldrifter
4 Deep Analysis
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
---------------------
7 card draw/tutors


4 FoW
3 Duress
3 Repeal (or -1 Repeal +1 Duress)
---------------------
10 disruption


1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
--------------------
20 mana


SB

3 Carpet of Flowers
4 Illusionary Mask
3 Dreadnaught
3 Trygon Predator
2 Survival of the Fittest


I could very easily remove the 4 FoW in favor of more combo pieces (-4 FoW -1 Demonic Tutor -1 Tropical +2 Cunning Wish +1 Entomb +2 Ancient Tomb +1 Duress, run Witness over Oona, and rework the SB to include Stroke of Genius, FoW, TfK, and bounce spells).

Alternately, maybe I could try running Time Vault + Voltaic Key with Tinker, Vamp, and Demonic and add Sundering Titan or Inkwell Leviathan, and perhaps run some Tops (because apparently Vault+Key is just so strong).

[fury]

In the current metagame, I would consider the Masknought sideboard a middle choice. In Europe, because of the powerful Vault-Key combo and Tezz, most of lists now use Null Rod and artifact destruction main deck. The Masknought solution was very efficient when Ichorid was heavily played, but now, i doubt of his place in the current environment.

I would think about a partial transformal board :

* 10-11 cards to manage the board and open a way for the combo : Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth, Pernicious Deed, Abeyance, Engineer's Explosives, Gigadrowse, more Duress, Pact of Negation, etc...
* 4-5 cards to switch to a pure aggro strategy : Phyrexian Negator, Tomb Stalker, Tinker/Robot.

Does anyone have tested the Tomb Stalker approach suggested by swawagon ?

[dicemanx]

In the current metagame, I would consider the Masknought sideboard a middle choice. In Europe, because of the powerful Vault-Key combo and Tezz, most of lists now use Null Rod and artifact destruction main deck. The Masknought solution was very efficient when Ichorid was heavily played, but now, i doubt of his place in the current environment.

The transformational SB is largely unnecessary against decks that run Null Rod; instead, I would just bring in Carpet of Flowers against the U based Fish decks that run Null Rod. If the Fish decks were too troublesome, I'd go back to the Oath SB plan.

I would think about a partial transformal board :

* 10-11 cards to manage the board and open a way for the combo : Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth, Pernicious Deed, Abeyance, Engineer's Explosives, Gigadrowse, more Duress, Pact of Negation, etc...
* 4-5 cards to switch to a pure aggro strategy : Phyrexian Negator, Tomb Stalker, Tinker/Robot.

Does anyone have tested the Tomb Stalker approach suggested by swawagon ?

I liked Rich Shay's suggestion of running Tarmogoyf as part of the aggro strategy. Tombstalker looks interesting; I'll need to try it at some point.

[swawagon]

DicemanX I love your Repeal deck revision! Except I'm seeing too much BUG fish to run a deck without 2 Basics and although I like greens SB options I feel a 3rd color is too tough on the mana base. But 2-3 Repeals main seems great! There are times when bouncing Mana Crypt is a great play, and as well as other Moxen, as mentioned, to Bazaar away.

Repeal has been testing really well in Legacy for me too, It's kind of a forgotten gem!

[dicemanx]

DicemanX I love your Repeal deck revision! Except I'm seeing too much BUG fish to run a deck without 2 Basics and although I like greens SB options I feel a 3rd color is too tough on the mana base. But 2-3 Repeals main seems great! There are times when bouncing Mana Crypt is a great play, and as well as other Moxen, as mentioned, to Bazaar away.

Repeal has been testing really well in Legacy for me too, It's kind of a forgotten gem!

I would totally run 1 Swamp 1 Island over 1 Underground 1 Tropical if I cut green mana (maybe I'd even run 2 islands). Note however that G allows you to run Carpet of Flowers, which is actually pretty amazing against U-based Fish and any U-based control decks. It is an interesting trade-off.

[CHOZO]

If you had to use a non transformational sideboard, dicemanx, what would you use in it?

[Negator13]

dicemanx: In the non-green Cunning Wish board you were talking about, where you drop the MD FoW's, how many FOWs and TFK's would you run in the board? Would the TFK's be cards you would board in or just Wish targets?

Also, how do you sideboard with that green sideboard posted above? (Against Drains, Ritual Combo, Fish, and Shops)?

[Twaun007]

DicemanX I love your Repeal deck revision! Except I'm seeing too much BUG fish to run a deck without 2 Basics and although I like greens SB options I feel a 3rd color is too tough on the mana base. But 2-3 Repeals main seems great! There are times when bouncing Mana Crypt is a great play, and as well as other Moxen, as mentioned, to Bazaar away.

Repeal has been testing really well in Legacy for me too, It's kind of a forgotten gem!

......bNote however that G allows you to run Carpet of Flowers, which is actually pretty amazing against U-based Fish and any U-based control decks. It is an interesting trade-off.

As awful as Carpet of Flowers sounds, Peter is right(used to run CoF in my stax sb). The mana you gain through CoF lets you play around Daze, Wasteland, Null Rods, etc.... You have to remember that there is no need to go turbo combo during any match. You can sit around till you're almost about to die then combo out. CoF also negates the mana denial strategy of fish which is so crucial with a combo deck. As for other decks I have no idea how to side board.

Stax should be a buy
Tezzeret should be in favor of Dragon(at least in my testing).
Fish? Just watch out for stifle/Swords and you'll crush'em
TPS haven't tested this matchup to much.
Ichorid.... Maindeck LotV is the suxors.

On a scale of 1 to 10 I have only tested WGDX on a 7.

[dicemanx]

If you had to use a non transformational sideboard, dicemanx, what would you use in it?

I would focus on three categories of SB cards: bounce (Echoing Truth, Chain of Vapor, Hurkyl's Recall/Rebuild), mass stopper of instants (Xantid Swarm), and a mass sweeper of permanents (Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives). I would also consider extra mana against Null Rod strategies (either 2 extra basics or Ancient Tombs). If fast combo was a problem deck in the meta, I'd consider running Chalice of the Void; if Ichorid was being run in significant numbers, I'd consider some graveyard hate, although the best plan might be to play another deck to avoid running into Leylines. Finally, against control-combo archetypes, I'd consider running extra draw spells like Skeletal Scrying, 3 Squee, or maybe even 4 Accumulated Knowledge (!). I'd shy away from Squee though in case they bring in Pithing Needles.

For instance, here's how the SB might look (assuming no Repeals, and 1 maindeck Tropical Island):

1 Echoing Truth
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Island (or Tropical Island, and then run 4 Deeds)
1 Swamp
3 xxxx (meta-specific)

Alternately, if I decided to run 5-color, I'd definitely opt for Ancient Grudges and possibly consider Abeyances. I would definitely shift the SB around from event to event though, which is why I have never advocated any specific SB cards in the past.

dicemanx: In the non-green Cunning Wish board you were talking about, where you drop the MD FoW's, how many FOWs and TFK's would you run in the board? Would the TFK's be cards you would board in or just Wish targets?

I would run something like the following if I was running 2 Cunning Wish maindeck:

1 Stroke of Genius
1 Force of Will (or Misdirection if 4 FoW remain in the maindeck, which is where I'd likely keep them)
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Echoing Truth
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Skeletal Scrying
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 xxx

Also, how do you sideboard with that green sideboard posted above? (Against Drains, Ritual Combo, Fish, and Shops)?

It would take a while to outline every SB plan, so I'll stick to general considerations:

To transform, I would need to SB a minimum of 7 cards to make room for 4 Masks and 3 Naughts. These cards would be:

-2 WGD (I'd keep 2 so I can still Intuition into the combo; plus, WGD can be played under Mask, especially if you have Carpets to give you a mana boost)
-3 Animate Dead
1 1 Mulldrifter
-1 Read the Runes

To make room for Carpet of Flowers, I would remove 1 mana source (undoubtedly the Mana Vault), and 2 business spells. I might dip into FoW against some decks and only retain Duress, going almost full aggro-combo. For instance:

+3 Carpet
+3 Predator

-4 FoW
-1 Mana Vault
-1 Read the Runes

The two Survivals can be inserted at the expense of 1 Bazaar (no longer that critical) and 1 Intuition (also weaker post SB).

Of course against some decks I would only bother SBing in Carpets and Predators.

[swawagon]

Tombstalker is fairly solid out of the board. Pretty much cast for 3 by turn 3 or less each time.

And as a 3of it is largely independent, and just another major, fairly fast, unexpected threat. Tombstalker is only a few slots in the board that ignore untapped Tormod's Crypt and basically ignore all the other hate (save Leyline of the Void or maybe Swords to Plowshares) people may bring in. And a 5/5 flyer is pretty big. They offer something that game one the deck does not do - Beatdown.

[fury]

In the current metagame, I would consider the Masknought sideboard a middle choice. In Europe, because of the powerful Vault-Key combo and Tezz, most of lists now use Null Rod and artifact destruction main deck. The Masknought solution was very efficient when Ichorid was heavily played, but now, i doubt of his place in the current environment.

The transformational SB is largely unnecessary against decks that run Null Rod; instead, I would just bring in Carpet of Flowers against the U based Fish decks that run Null Rod. If the Fish decks were too troublesome, I'd go back to the Oath SB plan.

I'm not sure of that. In a metagame with hate and artifact destruction, both strategies (WGD and Masknought) are difficult to lead to victory. The solution is indeed to go with the Oath plan, but I would consider another way of thinking.

I'm testing a non-transformal UBg list with bounces, EE, Pernicious Deed and Carpet of Flowers. And I wonder if a single card like Sheltering Ancient would find its place in a non-graveyard-dependent strategy in a WGD build. It is cheaper than Tombstalker, don't need any card in the graveyard, has an evasion ability, and has a better beatdown power than Tarmogoyf for the same cost early in the game. The drawback of the card is only annoying against aggro, which is not a problem for Dragon (as if the opponent cast creatures, the graveyard hate will be lower, and that will open space for the WGD combo.

I'm thinking about a global WGD strategy with this sideboard :

3 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Sheltering Ancient
1 Stroke of Genius

Against control :

+3 Carpet of Flowers
+4 Sheltering Ancient
-3 reanim
-2 WGD
-1 Mulldrifter
-1 Read the Runes

Against aggro-control :

-4 duress
+3 Pernicious deed
+1 Chain of Vapor/Echoing Truth

Against combo : we'll win faster than them

[Liiva]

I'm pretty sure your opponent needs a creature for Sheltering Ancient to work.

Here is the ruling from Crystal Keep:
If no opponent controls a creature, you can't pay the upkeep. [Coldsnap FAQ 2006/06/14]

So you'll still have to go with goyfs or tombstalkers

[fury]

I'm pretty sure your opponent needs a creature for Sheltering Ancient to work.

Here is the ruling from Crystal Keep:
If no opponent controls a creature, you can't pay the upkeep. [Coldsnap FAQ 2006/06/14]

So you'll still have to go with goyfs or tombstalkers

You're right

So I would switch back to Tarmogoyfs/Tombstalkers, unless you fond a single creature with a low cost an a high beatdown power.

[fury]

SephorusFR, a french Vintage player, has made a top4 in a french tournament of 17 players with the dicemanx' list :

The main list is the same.

The sideboard :
3 Energy Flux
3 Carpet of Flower
3 Tombstalker
3 Illusionary mask
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Breakdown :

2 Shop aggro,
1 TPS
2 Painter UGR
1 Tezz Control
1 Dragon
1 Fish WU
1 Ichorid
1 Painter BR
1 Zoo
1 UB Mask
1 Grim
4 randoms

The report can be found here (in french, sorry).

[CardboardAddict]

I'm a newb to this deck (board as well, but I've taken an interest in playing WGD lately) but I was just wondering if Demonic Consultation has ever been considered for WGD? Seems like it could be good, but I'm guessing it's inferior to another card in some way since it hasn't been included in a single build I've seen.

Also, can someone explain to me the singleton Mulldrifter? I've seen it in a few builds but it kinda seems a little out of place to me, like it could be replaced by something more useful? Thanks!

[Liiva]

Allthough I think demonic consultation is a great card, it won't work in dragon. If you remove your Oona while searching for the named card you're pretty much screwed.

Mulldrifter is in the deck because it allows you to stop your dragon loop when you cast intuition (without a bazaar in play). To be honest, mulldrifter can be any creature but mulldrifter is pretty useful on it's own. I've had plenty of games where I evoked an early mulldrifter and later on animated him for some extra cards, then later on animated a dragon and draw your deck untill you have Oona and a Read the Runes.

[fury]

Hi all,

I'm testing a Key-Vault sideboard approach for the WGD archetype. I have studied the possibility because it seems to be more efficient than the Masknought sideboard solution. Indeed, instead of having a big 12/12 trample for 3 manas and 2 cards, we have an infinite turns combo for 4 manas (3 if Voltaic Key is cast before the combo turn, which is most of the time the case).

So I would propose the following sideboard I'm testing :

3 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
3 Transmute Artifact
4 Voltaïc Key
1 Time Vault
3 free slots

Transmute Artifact is useful to fetch Time Vault, or one Key if Vault is already in hand or on the table. Once we do infinite turns, we kill with Oona or Mulldrifter.

Of course, this option should not be played if the field is plenty of Null Rod (unless we use bounces to vanish them off)

What do you think about it ? What would be the 3 free slots of this approach ?

[sephorusFR]

So I would propose the following sideboard I'm testing :

3 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
3 Transmute Artifact
4 Voltaïc Key
1 Time Vault
3 free slots

What about playing -1 key + 1 tinker and add a robot int he free slot (either Leviathan if the meta is tezz oriented or Sundering titan) ?
Not sure *4* key is required maybe 3 is enough as we will certainly keep bazaar to dig up the combo piece while faking playing the dragon combo.

Also, no love for Tombstalker ?

[the boogie man]

What opinion does everyone have about stifle? It seems to shore up on some cards dragon is typically hurt by (crypt, relic, tendrils, wasteland) plus is randomly useful for other things. It also lends itself well to the masknaught sideboard. and you can stifle dragons come into play trigger, whether your playing him or the opponent has bounced and/or removed him, saving all of your permanents.

with 3 stifles main, the side could look like:

1 stifle
1 illusionary mask
3 dreadnaught
3 carpet of flowers
3 tomstalker
4 open

also, what is the ruling on animating a progenitus or leviathan? If leviathan is an option, the lose to targetted removal aspect of dragon is a little bit less prevalent. Then, the maindeck win conditions could be animates, dragons, eternal witness, tinker, leviathan, giving the deck a non-graveyard dependant way to win.

[wjcuttler]

What opinion does everyone have about stifle? It seems to shore up on some cards dragon is typically hurt by (crypt, relic, tendrils, wasteland) plus is randomly useful for other things. It also lends itself well to the masknaught sideboard. and you can stifle dragons come into play trigger, whether your playing him or the opponent has bounced and/or removed him, saving all of your permanents.

with 3 stifles main, the side could look like:

1 stifle
1 illusionary mask
3 dreadnaught
3 carpet of flowers
3 tomstalker
4 open

also, what is the ruling on animating a progenitus or leviathan? If leviathan is an option, the lose to targetted removal aspect of dragon is a little bit less prevalent. Then, the maindeck win conditions could be animates, dragons, eternal witness, tinker, leviathan, giving the deck a non-graveyard dependant way to win.

I like the idea of Stifle. Although, Progenitus has the DSC shuffle back in effect when it goes to the grave, making it difficult to animate. I thought animating Inkwell was touched on already but I can't find it to quote. The end result was that Inkwell will remain in play with the animate enchantment attached as it doesn't target in the current wording. Something was also said about it being different then having pro-black. Probably in reference to Akroma.

EDIT: Reply #9 by Harlequin explains the ruling in question.

[fury]

So I would propose the following sideboard I'm testing :

3 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
3 Transmute Artifact
4 Voltaïc Key
1 Time Vault
3 free slots

What about playing -1 key + 1 tinker and add a robot int he free slot (either Leviathan if the meta is tezz oriented or Sundering titan) ?
Not sure *4* key is required maybe 3 is enough as we will certainly keep bazaar to dig up the combo piece while faking playing the dragon combo.

Also, no love for Tombstalker ?

For sure ! Tombstalker is great... I tested the solution with only 3 Keys, it works and can still be tutored with intuition. So the sideboard could be :

3 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
3 Transmute Artifact
3 Voltaïc Key
1 Time Vault
3 Tombstalker / or 3 Gigadrowse to resist against control

[sephorusFR]

with 3 stifles main, the side could look like:

How does your stifle list looks like ?

I'm a big fan of Carpet of Flower too, it really help getting past the threat nbr per turn that control can handle.

[the boogie man]

something like:

21-22 mana
land
power

4 bazaar
4 worldgorger
3 animate dead
3 necromancy
1 eternal witness
1 tinker
1 inkwell leviathan
1 mulldrifter

4 force of will
3 thoughtseize
3 deep anal
3 intuition
2 stifle
2 repeal
1 vamp
1 demonic
1 ancestral
1 timewalk

and the side would look like:
1 stifle
1 illusionary mask
3 dreadnaught
3 tombstalker
3 carpet of flowers
2 yixlid jailer
1 leyline of the void
1 extirpate

Read the runes didn't fit, but I think that I like the tinker-leviathan instead. it pitches, offers a non graveyard dependent winn, and it pretty good with the masknaught sb. There iis no sb answer to workshop, but I assume it is a pretty good matchup, and tombstalker seems good to board in, maybe as well as extirpate, for wastes or something.

any thoughts?

[Noah]

Hey, long time no post. So WGDX is up for discussion again... here's the list I've been working on for the past while (bare in mind, this is for a Landstill, Fish heavy meta with some Ichorid and Tezz):

WGDX

4 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae

1 Tinker
1 Inkwell Leviathan

4 Intuition
3 Read the Runes

4 Bazaar of Baghdad

3 Necromancy
3 Animate Dead
1 Dance of the Dead

3 Deep Analysis
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Imperial Seal

4 FoW
3 Duress

1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
3 Polluted Delta
3 Forbidden Orchard
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp


SB:

4 Oath of Druids
3 Bogardan Hellkite
2 Abeyance
1 Duress (or 3rd Abeyance)
1 Echoing Truth
1 Platinum Angel
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Entomb
1 Tundra


Different main deck choices:

1 Brainstorm: I like BS over the 4th DA in this list because of the SB Oath package.

1 Imperial Seal: I cut the main deck bounce from Peter's list (DicemanX) and went with an Alternate win in the main deck. Seal helps get an card for either win condition and also helps get other win conditions and singletons after board.

1 Tinker and Inkwell: Inkwell Leviathan has shown it is the best P/T win condition to date in Vintage. It is such a house in all of WGDX's bad match ups, and I thought it was necessary main deck.
 
Different SB choices:

Fish: I really like Bogardan Hellkite as the main win with Oath of Druids, especially in this match up. I also board in Duress.

Landstill: Before this was THE unwinnable match up. Since Ichorid is an auto loss for them, they have opted for no GY hate. So, the plan with WGDX is to keep the combo in and just win through Abeyances and an extra Duress along side Inkwell Leviathan which is a house in that match up. If you do see GY hate in game 2, you could also board into Oath for game 3.

Tezz: This match up does board into GY hate but most of it come in the form of Yixlid Jayler and artifacts. So again with the Abeyance and extra Duress plan along side the Inkwell Leviathan ftw.

Long: This match up is also a little hard because their deck is faster then yours. So, my goal for WGDX is to become faster then Game 1 and have more disruption then them. Platinum Angel replaces Inkwell, Abeyances and the Duress come in aswell as the Entomb because it speeds up the deck a fair amount. A couple years ago, I used to main deck Entomb but DicemanX and I have agreed that Entomb is only good in that match up and Ichorid too.

Ichorid: This is the next scariest match up next to Landstill. Platinum Angel, Echoing Truth, Yixlid Jaylor and Entomb all come in for this match up. Intuition and your tutors are probably now the most important cards for you because it can get Yixlid Jaylor or Platinum Angel into play by turn 2-3. So mulligan until you get one of these cards or a really fast combo hand.

[sephorusFR]

I played the Oath sideboard but always found the MD orchard to be clumsy.
Can't they live in the board or does this push the envelope too far concerning place of the plan C in the board ?

I like abeyance however. I guess chant is not played cause of the double white needed if we want to kick it ?

[Noah]

Chant isn't played because it doesn't stop Crypt/Relic, other activated abilities. Orchard token you could really care less about because you are a combo deck. The only real time I'd ever tinker, is when I had an opening grip of a tutor and not much of the combo. The token also do not block Inkwell because the guy has Islandwalk and if need be Shroud, and will probably ot race the tokens.