[Deck]Workshop Aggro (Mono Red)

[Miaou]

I'm really liking the deck, and while I have my own build, the thing I want to discuss is Barbarian Ring. I totally agree that you need at least 6 Mountains, and 3-4 Solemn (I opted for 4...). However could you not cut 2 Mountains for a couple of Barbarian Rings? The damage is minimal and it could be nice to take out opposing Welders/Shaman/Confidants/etc...

[yespuhyren]

You can, it's just I haven't tested them enough to decide whether they warrant inclusion.  As well, if you happen to draw/fetch out all 4 mountains recurring solemns (which does happen) have no fetching abilities to thin out your deck and build up your mana supply.  The damage isn't really much of an issue, and getting threshhold IS harder than you would think because you don't play smokestack/wire etc.  Realistically, I think the basic mountains are simply stronger, though again, it is a good idea, it just doesn't work well when threshold is so hard to achieve

[Bongo]

While I agree that Top/Trike is good, Null Rod is just too powerful not to run. It shuts down entire strategies and straight up wins the game in many cases where it resolves. Null Rod is also very important in fighting the "Rebuild Effect", as your opponent often wont have the mana to cast it in time. If you spend your time doing tricks with Top and Solemn, you're giving your opponent more time and resources to find Rebuild/Hurkyls Recall.

I can understand the theory behind the Trike/Top version, but the problem is that you're making yourself vulnerable to artifact destruction AND Null Rod. Being susceptible to Null Rod is a huge liability against Fish and Shopdecks running Rod. You need to minimize your weak spots.
The speed of the deck also goes considerably down if you run Solemn Simulacrum over Juggernaut. You don't want the game to continue for a long time, you want to end the game asap when your opponent is locked down. This is also why I like Juggernaut in Shop Aggro. Juggernaut limits the draw steps of your opponent, giving you something like "inverse card advantage".

I think the Trike/Top approach is better suited to Stax, which has a fundamentally slower game plan where you can use Top the best.

Currently, I'm running the following decklist:

4 Goblin Welder
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Juggernaut
2 Razormane Masticore
2 Duplicant

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Null Rod
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere

4  Mishra's Workshop
7  Mountain
2  Ancient Tomb
4  Wasteland
1  Strip Mine
1  Tolarian Academy
8  SolMoxLotusCrypt

I have found 9 sources of red mana to be sufficient. I think not running Mana Vault is correct, as it often acts as a colorless Dark Ritual that damages you. I'd rather have Ancient Tomb or another red source. Ancient Tomb is huge because it allows you to consistently cast Null Rod/Thorn/Chalice for 1 on the first turn.

Duplicant was included because many losses were to Tinker. If you shut down VaultKey/PainterStone/Storm with Null Rod, Tinker often becomes the opponents only way to win. Having an option to shut that strategy down is very important.

[Miaou]

I don't think you can cut Solemn and reliably get all your red mana. He acts like fetches for other decks. However I do agree that Null Rod is most definatly a must in this deck, and that for it to work, you have to customize your deck to it. That means no SoFI, no Trisk, no Top. However when you consider that SoFI is mostly against aggro which also run Null Rod it becomes less attractive. Same thing with Triskelion who loses alot of potency against Null Rod aggro.

The build I am currently using:


21 creatures:
4 Goblin Welder
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Juggernaut
4 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Razormane Masticore
2 Duplicant

13 disrupt:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Null Rod
1 Trinisphere

26 mana
4  Mishra's Workshop
6  Mountain
2  Ancient Tomb
4  Wasteland
1  Strip Mine
1  Tolarian Academy
8  SolMoxLotusCrypt

Using Null Rod, forces the combo/control player to use his alternate path to victory: Tinker -> DSC. And since the only real protection is Welder, I felt it essential to use 2 Duplicants. I am seriously considering using a third instead of a Masticore. I chose not to use Mana Vault as it is a one shot deal, and I use Null Rods. So I want to minimise the self damage of Null Rod. Running it also allows me to take out the Gorilla Shaman, as they serve a simiilar role, but I think Rod is more brutal.

[Bongo]

Miaou:

You're essentially repeating what I said.
The deck is basically the same, just with Solemns instead of Tangle Wire. I think this swap drastically lowers your percentage against Drain decks. Without Tangle Wire, it's too easy to fetch 2 Island and just drain your big spells. Tangle Wire is also huge with Welder, the perpetual tapping effect is a lot stronger than the draw you gain with Simulacrum. You just timewalk your opponent multiple times while hindering his ability to drain his way out.
Tangle Wire is the least symmetrical of all the lockpieces, and is useful against every archetype. I strongly recommend trying them out.

[Mantis]

While Chalice and Mox Monkey aren't as powerful as Null Rod is, they are definately more flexible and they don't hinder me nearly as much nor do they force me to play 'inferior' cards. I opt for them in this case as I definately think they deserve the nod.

I love Chalice, it's a great card that's always relevant in any stage of the game. It's also a card that is always relevant, it shores up your harder matchups such as Oath and TPS (while Null Rod is obviously amazing against TPS as well). I can see why you don't want to play Magus without Chalice as the combo between Chalice and Magus is amazing, as it completely cuts entire archetypes off non blue colored mana.

Solemn seems like the weakest card in the entire deck and it's never gamebreaking, I will have to do some numbercrunching and testing to see if the deck can consistenly get R without it but I fear that is not the case. I hope I can get away with just running 3 though.

Overall I have been very pleased with the deck, I have added a set of Jesters Cap to my sideboard to help combat Oath and TPS which seem like the hardest matchups. That it's a great card against Tez as well is just gravy. I know, I dismissed Jesters Cap a few pages back, but I really think I was wrong there. On MWS I am just on a tear, I was 10-0 in matches yesterday (yeah I know that's a lot of play hehe), although I did lose to 1 game against TPS but he quit after G1.
Triskelion keeps on being MVP of the deck, he and Welder are the best tag team ever, that alone is a reason I wouldn't play Null Rod right now.

@Bongo:
Tangle Wire looks like it's worthy of some testing. The flaw I see is that the purpose of the card is to help resolve your cards, but you could have already resolved a lockpiece or creature when you played Wire. It's also pretty much dead after turn 5 or something, that said I can see why you run Wire and I definately think it's a very decent card and not a bad choice. It does require a certain metagame as Wire seems underwhelming against Shops and Dredge. There are just an awful lot of cards contesting for the last few slots so we have to be critical.

@yespuhyren:
I tested your list but it didn't treat me well in the games I played it. I might have given up on the deck too early and perhaps I'm not playing the deck as well as I play my own version, but when I switched from my previous list to the list I have now it immediately felt like a step upwards while this really felt like a step down in terms of consistency and speed, although the power level might have gone up a little. I really missed Mana Crypt, Vault and Ancient Tomb to power up some quick play and this lead to a lot more mulligans as I didn't have a play on turn 1 a lot and very marginal plays on turn 2. Instead I could attack for 2 with my Factory on turn 2...

All in all, I can understand your changes yespuhyren and Bongo, but I am very pleased with the deck right now and don't see a reason to change the maindeck all that much. The sideboard is definately up for discussion though and if anyone has an idea how to work Solemn out of the deck while mainting consistensy I'd be more than glad to hear it.

[yespuhyren]

I would assume you are just playing the deck worse than your own due to lack of comfort.  The last two times I've played in tournaments I've T8'ed in 40ish man events, one of the two times splitting a lotus.  I'm not saying my deck is better or your deck is better, that's pointless.  I just know what I like to play and what I feel is optimal, and I've been playing shop aggro for almost 6 years now.  I've pretty much played/tested/seen everything with shop aggro, and given the thousands of hours of playtesting that has gone into shop aggro lists I build, this is what I feel is best for me right now. 

I also love SOFI, and was always the one backing 4 in the MD.  The only reason it isn't in the MD right now is to use Null Rod.  It is a strong possibility that Null Rod will remain boarded and SOFI in the main

[Bongo]

Returning to the Rod-less version of Mantis, I really think there must be a better card than Simulacrum. One of the selling-points of Simulacrum is the ability to fix your mana. However, this often occurs turn 3-5 unless you have Workshop or multiple Moxen in your starting hand. Isn't that too late anyway for fixing? I think it's better to rework the manabase instead of relying on Simulacrum. This is similar to what Diakonov mentioned in his post.

What is the minimum number of red sources you need to run? I think 11 sources should suffice, especially when you factor in Top:

9  Mountain
4  Mishra's Workshop
4  Wasteland
1  Strip Mine
1  Tolarian Academy
1  Sol Ring
1  Black Lotus
1  Mana Crypt
1  Mox Sapphire
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Pearl
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Jet


Another problem of Simulacrum is when you already have access to red mana. Then, it's just an overcosted Wood Elves.

SoFI was also too random - clearly great when you can connect, but otherwise useless. Bouncing/destroying the creature in response to the equip is a huge tempo-loss and can cost you the game. It feels like SoFI is a necessity in your version due to the fact that all your creatures beside Triskelion are just small dorks.

What do you think about replacing Simlacrums and SoFI with more beaters and some Tangle Wires (especially with a reworked manabase)?

[Mantis]

First of all, I like this discussion.

@yespuhyren:
Yes, that may very well be the case. Is your Shop list designed with a particular metagame in mind? Also, is Welder + sideboard really worth the red component in your manabase (Gathan Raiders can always be played without red mana)? Also, what makes this deck better than Stax? Bazaar and Smokestack seem tailormade for your list and if you go down that road you quickly find yourself just playing Stax. Regardless of your answer, I'm going to give the deck another shot as the matchup against TPS seems be slightly better and I keep losing that MU no matter what I do. Basically what happens is; dump a ton of lockpieces, they draw some land, play Hurkyls Recall or Rebuild (you never know which one so Chalice just sucks donkey balls) and they go nuts. My clock is just too slow to get them down to 0 faster than they can get Hurkyls, I have tried Jesters Cap but it never worked out as well as I had hoped. The Ichorid matchup is a lot worse though, so I'm curious to how the mirror match, Oath, Fish and Drain matchups will work out compared to my list.

@Bongo:
I really like your idea Bongo, but if we put in Tangle Wires and take out aggressive components, I would think that severely hurts the clock. I sometimes already have some trouble putting a fast clock on my opponent. I do think you have enough red with that manabase, but will lose explosiveness due to the removal of Ancient Tombs. I know that Ancient Tomb causes lifeloss and that can be a real issue at times, but nevertheless I like it too much to cut. For time being I think I'm going to keep the deck as it is as Solemn can be awesome against creature based decks. I mean, I would love to test it out but tournament is in 2 weeks and I have to work out a ton of sideboard plans.

@Miaou:
Another solid list. Perhaps you could replace the Dupes with Trisks, I know Trisk doesnt work with Rod out, but with Inkwell in the format Duplicant sucks anyway. Triskelion still is a 4/4 beatstick even with Rod out and it has an awesome ability that is insane against a lot of decks. You could also consider Gathan Raiders that yespuhyren suggested as Duplicant just seems pretty bad in the format right now.

I'm strongly considering fitting in 1 or 2 Karn, Silver Golem to the deck and although only Jar, Thorn and Sol Ring realistically serve as beaters, he looks very good. Clearing out Moxen, getting up a good clock while disrupting against combo (note that with Spheres from the SB this clock improves) and being an awesome tag team with Trisk in clearing Vault, Key, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Crucible etc. Also, some other random stuff it can do is remove Bridges against Ichorid as you shoot your own Moxen. The fact that he can block Inkwell and live is truly bonkers. I still have to work out how to fit at least 1 in and if satisfying perhaps a second copy.

[Miaou]

@Mantis:

I agree with you that Duplicant isn't exactly the best creature to put a clock on someone as he is there to respond to an opponents threat. However considering how difficult it is to answer Tinker, I think he is necessary. In my area at least Leviathan isn't widely played yet so that is a non issue, but what would you suggest to answer him? In red/artifact, I can't really think of anything (except for preventing the Tinker from being cast). If Leviathan starts seeing lots of play I shall definately try out the Triskelion suggestion
I do use Gathan Raiders, but in the sideboard. Reason being generaly, game 1, I don't have to worry too much about artifact removal. However game 2&3, that's a different story. So that is where I feel that the Raiders really shine. They are Hellbent alot of the time, which is great. I had trouble deciding what to take out to make space for all 3, but in the end I settled upon Magus of the Moon as most answers to my threats will require them to use red mana anyways (R&R, Ingot Chewer, Firesprout, Pyroclasm, etc...).

Can you elaborate a bit more as to why Jester's Cap didn't work out? Because if I were to not play Null Rod, I was going to use them for sure. Are they too slow?

[yespuhyren]

My meta is mostly aggro, which is why I use Gathan/Factories.  Gathan is a 5/5 or at worst a 3/3 who is indestructible/bouncable by artifact hate.  I don't denounce Karn, Trike, or any of those.  Just not right NOW is more what I'm saying.  Again, shop aggro lists should be changing all the time from person to person.  I'm just giving you what I use now, and what has helped me get 4 T8's in the 4 times playing it, all against a tough set of opponents and matches. 

[Mantis]

@yespuhyren:
And I appreciate that. It's insightful and it helps my design process as well.

@Miaou:
I put the Caps back in the sideboard as I really wanted a catch all for Oath and TPS. But when I put them in I figured they were going to be nuts, they are strong but I was just a bit disappointed they weren't as crazy as I thought. I mean it still costs you about 2 turns to play and activate it. So by all means use them if you are not going to use Null Rod.

Also I have been VERY pleased with Karn, it definately puts up a huge clock and even blocked an Inkwell today!

[sorcutt]

I've always found Caps to be very underwhelming.  6 mana (4cc + 2 for activation) is usually a lot to pump out early in the game.  The only way for it to be effective against Oath or TPS is for your Cap activation to go off 1st turn.  A 2nd turn Cap activation is often too late to matter.

If you're looking for Oath protection, Greater Gargadon is as good as it gets for mono R shop.  It's a 1 mana uncounterable effect that axes spirit tokens all day.  You can even leave most of your creatures in and just chump them to Gargadon.  It even CIP with haste when the suspend counters are gone.  In conjunction with Mishra's Factories I've never had a hard time with the Oath matchup.  Mono R shop shouldn't have too much trouble with TPS/storm combo either.  Sphere/Thorns/Chalices/Null Rod should do the trick.

[Mantis]

@sorcutt:
I think the flaw in my testing is that I knew what I was up against every time I tested Cap. I knew what my testbuddy was going to be playing and therefore I knew if Caps were going to be good or not. In reality there are a ton of games where you just don't know which decks your opponent runs if you have killed him G1. He could also have boarded in more win conditions. In testing against random opponents I had a game vs TPS in which I activated Cap turn 2 but my opponent sided in Tombstalkers and due to all the tempo loss the Cap gave me I ended up dying to his Tombstalkers. That felt really bad, and actually that wasn't the first time it happened. In small sized tournaments with no more than 20 players I think Cap is very reasonable as it's easy to scout everyone on site. In larger tournaments I just don't think it's optimal and it creates awkward situations. That said, I still don't like Gargadon, there's just not enough Oath to justify it. Also, I just went back to the Sphere plan and I'm testing out some REB's in the SB.

@yespuhyren:
I'm currently testing out Factories after a somewhat disappointing day of testing where I sometimes had like 3 Spheres out but was unable to kill my opponent. I traded the Tops for more Swords and adjusted the manabase a bit to fit in 4 Factories and thusfar they have been pretty good, but more testing is required really. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Miaou]

After playing at a tournament in my area, I now know what to expect in terms of metagame. This has changed my build quite considerably. My meta has a majority of blue based control decks, a few fish decks as well as some combo, but the main player is control. What they almost all have in common is Goblin Welders. That means that I need a MD answer to them, and I found that Triskelion works best here. That also means that I can't reliably use Null Rod, which isn't all that bad considering that half of the decks are Control Slaver and not Tez (hence no Vault/Key).
The most common Tinker targets are Platinum Angel, Sundering Titan as well as Inkwell Leviathan.

With all that in mind here is my latest decklist:

    4  Mishra's Workshop
    6  Mountain
    4  Mishra's Factory
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Tolarian Academy
    7  SolMoxLotus

    4  Goblin Welder
    4  Solemn Simulacrum
    4  Triskelion
    4  Juggernaut
    2 Duplicant
    2 Karn, Silver Golem

    4  Thorn of Amethyst
    4  Chalice of the Void
    1  Trinisphere
    4  Sensei's Divining Top

I feel like this is a hybrid build between everything we have seen so far, let me get to some card choices.
First of all, no Crypt. While it often allow some explosive starts, I think that the disadvantages are pretty big. First of all considering that most match ups that I will face will be against control, having this out on the table for a long time is just begging to be punished. I do have Karn to get rid of it, but as a 2-of, it's risky. It is also affected by Null Rod which I use in the SB...
After that Triskelions: I need to take out Welders. This guy is big and he can deal with an already active Welder, something that a Razormane can't. He does cost 6, but with Tops and no SoR, it is very manageable. Which leads me to:
Sensei's Divining Top: With no Null Rod, and after reading other people's comments on this, I decided to try it out. And I must admit that I wasn't disapointed. It really helps getting you what you need now (be it mana, a beater or disruption). It also gives me a turn one play that can set up consistant broken turn 2 plays.
No Magus of the Moon: I don't see the necessity to play these in my area. Control decks tend to run Fire/Ice and/or Pyroclasm, as well as Ingot Chewers. They also all have at least 3 basic Islands, so it's easy for them to play around it. I do love him against other matchups (Oath, Fish, Dredge), so he is in the SB for now.
Duplicant and Karn: This is my answer to Tinker (along with Welders). Duplicant takes out anything except Inkwell Leviathan, and Karn sits there and blocks Titans and Leviathans all day. He is also useful at beating and taking out moxen so that's a bonus. Maybe the cards here aren't the best answers, but I feel that considering how weak this deck is to Tinker, something is needed main deck.
Mishra's Factory: Thanks yespuhyren for these. Now that Magus is not used in MD, these are a great addition. Uncounterable creatures that can help finish a game against an opponent with a fist full of countermagic is really good. I do however miss the Ancient Tombs I was using, but I like this better.

This is still in testing, but so far I do like it alot. Questions/suggestions always welcome

[Mantis]

So I had a tourney yesterday in Breda (Netherlands). 61 people showed up and I finished 8th... Kind of a disappointing finish as I didn't win anything relevant but still it's nice to make T8 and prove a point haha. I'll write a very short tournament report (I kind of hate tournament reports) and then do some analysis, which is far more relevant.

I played the following list:
6 Mountain
8 Crypt, Lotus, Sol, Moxen (No Mana Vault!)
4 Shop
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Academy
5 StripWaste

4 Welder
4 Trisk
4 Magus
4 Solemn
2 Mox Monkey
2 Karn

4 Tangle Wire
4 Thorn
1 3Sphere
2 Top
1 Jar
2 SoFaI

SB:
3 Heretic
2 REB (kind of meh, I liked them in some games but not sure if they are good enough)
1 Boil (didn't see it, can't judge if it was good or not)
3 T Crypt
1 Relic
3 Flametongue Kavu (unimpressive definately going to change these)
2 Sphere of Resistance


First match against TPS (Martijn van der Vaart)
He told me he knew I was playing Shops, I tried my best to not let him know what I was playing, but I'm not sure it worked out. He led with Delta --> Swamp so I said, aah TPS. He played Thoughtseize. I Stripped his land, he had an Island next turn, but not much after that and I was able to land a Trinisphere and shortly after that a Jar. He scooped when my Jar gave me some beaters and more Spheres. He shouldn't have scooped there as he could still win and I knew what he was playing anyway but I was glad he did.
G2 he played a Goyf, I began to doubt if it was TPS as Goyf is a horrible SB plan against Shops. It dilutes the combo and we are much better at fighting on our terms. Needless to say I easily won this one and was glad he didnt just go for land, land, land --> Rebuild --> win.

Match 2 was against a guy playing Eva Green. He didn't look familair so I tried to gain some info by asking him if he plays Vintage much. He told me mostly played Legacy and borrowed this deck, I put him on an aggressive deck as I didn't think his friends owned Drain, Shop or TPS decks.
Turns out I was right and my hand of lands, Solemn and Tangle Wire and some other stuff was great against him. I won this game pretty easily.
Game 2, I made some bad judgement calls. He started off with Ritual --> Duress and Null Rod. OUCH. I proceed to Waste some of his lands and hope I draw some Shops to overpower him or manascrew him. Alas, he drew more land and could land some Confidants and Goyfs. He kept open his own Wasteland so I figured he might be low on land as he didn't Waste my Shop. I drew my Welders and Solemns too late to matter so on to g3.
Game 3: I open Sol Ring, Shop, Trinisphere.. Wow. Next turn, Solemn. Next turn Wire + SoFaI + equip. Next turn Wasteland. He couldn't even have cast his Edicts as he never had 3 mana available. I felt kind of bad for him, but it happens.

Match 3: I played against Frank in an epic match.
I got bad information from Duncan that he played either Drain Tendrills or Sui Black. He opened with a Bloodstained Mire --> Swamp --> Top and I immediately put him on Sui Black as I didn't think Drain Tendrills would open that way. I had Shop, 2 Wastes, Thorn, Solemn and Top in hand. I didn't want to expose my Shop to Wasteland and therefore I led by Waste --> Top. Turns out he played TPS and he went bananas on me. Had I played the Thorn I would have won. I was very angry at myself but when I look back I think I don't think I didn't necessarily made a mistake there.
Game 2, I crushed him with Spheres and Wires and stuff I can't remember.
Game 3 was epic. I feared that he was going to kill me and he had 2 Confidants in play very quickly. I was able to land a Thorn, he played an Energy Flux. I wasn't too worried as I never really cared for Energy Flux much. I had Red Blast for Flux but decided to let it stick as he was forced to sac his two Moxen. I then Blasted it and he used Chain of Vaport on the Flux in response. Note that he was taking massive damage from the Confidants and the Mana Crypt he had. I was happy, as I just landed my third Sphere and he couldn't cast his Flux anytime soon anyway. He managaed to stick his Energy Flux again, but I had Welder and enough mana thanks to Solemn to get around it. Turns were called, I landed a Wire. I would have killed him with Karn next turn but he died to his own Crypt. I wasn't sure if he could have killed me on his turn but I was very happy to won this epic game. Frank had some unfortunate flips on his Crypt and Confidants so I felt bad for him, it might have been a draw had he been a little bit more lucky. I felt he didn't deserve a draw as he played terribly slow. I wanted to call a judge, but I really like Frank so I decided against it. Seriously Frank van Rijn, if you read this, I love you man , we had tons of fun after the tourney playing EDH and Ichorid vs. Shops. He didn't believe me when I told him Ichorid was my best matchup, so we played. I crushed him. 7-1 in games. We were trashtalking all the time and had a great time.

Match 4: against my buddy Duncan playing GWSX. We discussed drawing, but decided against it as we would throw away a point that way. We agreed on splitting the prize in T8 if one of us didn't make it as we didn't want to be one of us to be disappointed.
G1: He won the dieroll, went turn 1 Ritual --> Necropotence. He played his Necro correctly and didn't draw 17 cards right away. I tried to fight him but to no avail. He mini Tendrillsed me and drew thanks to that could even more cards of Necro. I mean he drew the nuts and when that happens there's nothing you can do.
G2: Questionable hand in my opening 7, 3 Moxen (no Ruby), Top, Karn, Welder and Solemn or something. Would you keep that? I didn't want to risk it, I knew his matchup was decent against me and if I didn't add pressure he could beat me unmolested. Sure, if there was good stuff in my top 3 I could win, but I really didn't want to risk it and hoped for a better 6.
The next 6 were even more questionable, 2 Wastes, 1 Mountain, 2 Welders and 2 Spheres I believe. Anyway, I had to try that, open with Welder and he has tons of artifact acceleration so my Spheres didn't hurt him. Perhaps I should have mulled to 5, but instead I was hoping for him to mull or not have 3 artifact accelerators in his hand. This was a game where I might have won if Wires were Chalices.

Okay, wow need to play my very best to make it now.
Round 5 vs Gerwin: The mirror. I spoke about the deck with him earlier and he just copied my post from Themanadrain I believe. So I knew we were up for the mirror against a decent player. Knewing I was in the mirror, I kept a hand without Moxen and that had no disruption but rather some beatsticks. He did keep a hand with a Thorn and I couldn't care any less. I overwhelmed him with a Solemn and maybe SoFaI I can't remember and Magus. He probably should have mulliganned, but I don't know the contents of his hand.
Game 2: He leads with Shaman. I debate on wheter to just lead with land or open with Shop, Sol Ring, Solemn. I was afraid he could eat my Sol Ring and Waste my land and I was history but I decided to go for it anyway. He plays Heretic instead of eating my Sol Ring. I have 3 Kavu and 4 Triskelion in my deck so I hope to draw one of them quickly otherwise I probably won't be able to overcome Heretic. I draw; it's Triskelion NICE! I debate on wheter to shoot his Heretic but actually I know the correct answer from the start and shoot his Heretic. He lays down 2 Welders, ok these arent too scary yet but he now has the dynamic duo of Welder and Shaman. He can eat my Mox and then trade them with my artifacts.. Luckily my next topdeck yields yet another Trisk, I 3 for 1 him and he can never overcome the card advantage and scoops them up a few turns after that. Phew, dodged that bulet.

I am 4th in the standings and figure I can draw in as I have the highest resistance of the people with 12 points. I end up in 8th seed despite having the highest resistance before, I'm kind of pissed off as I now need to win the the quarterfinals to get an attractive price. The rest could at least have Ethersworn Cannonist + textless Cryptic Command or a Plateau while I got 4 Tormods Crypt and a russian Hyppo legend..

So T8:
I lose to Steffen van Veen. Quite possibly the best Vintage player in Holland. This was a terrible matchup, he played Tezzeret with an Oath sideboard. To make matters worse he also wins the die roll. I try not to let it influence me but when he leads with land, Mox, Lotus, Scroll into Recall while all I can muster is wasting his land, my heart kind of sinks. I just hope he has to spend his Lotus to play the Recall. He does, but unfortunately draws into land and is able to use his mana floating on TfK. He then proceeds to have Drain and FoW for everything relevant I try to play and wins off Vault/Key. I hope he fails to sac his Crypt to the Tinker he uses to find the Key, but he obviously sees it and I scoop them up as I know his deck and winconditions from scouting anyway. In hindsight I maybe should have forced him to play it out and maybe get a shot at beating him if he forgets to activate his Key. Now that I type this up I feel kind of bad, I think you should always let the Vault/Key player play it out unless you are running out of time. I am amazed I didn't figure that out during the match we played.
I was expecting him to board in the Oath plan against me and sideboard accordingly. I believe I had to mulligan once and then keep a hand with Shop, Saph, Top, Thorn, Mox Monkey and another land. Nice! I'm liking my odds here, but he obviously has the FoW + blue card for my Thorn. He then has turn 1 Oath. My heart sinks, how am I ever going to overcome this? I spin my Top in the hopes of something good, but I just don't have a plan for this. I'm hoping to lock him out with Tangle Wire + Welder and hopefully he will get Colossus time after time and I can keep Welding it back. I'm running out of counters as he plays more permanents and gets Emepryal Archangels in play. It's just an uphill battle and I maybe could have won if I played extremely tight and got extremely lucky but I haven't played enough against Oath to know how to pull it off. In hindsight, I realize that he probably didn't have Forbidden Orchards anywhere in his 75, so it might have been better to just keep piling up Tangle Wires and Spheres and hopefully finish him off once Karn hits. I'm kind of pissed at myself when I type this up as I would have been a superhero if I was able to drag that game out. Anyway realistically speaking I don't think I really had a shot anyway, as playing that way would also require him to not draw Tinker or Vault/Key and also not draw into his artifact disruption and not have any counters.

Boy this has turned out much larger than I expected. I really think this report is worthwhile to read when you pick up the deck as I focussed a lot on the plays that mattered and disregarded the stuff that was obvious. I think I played pretty tight all day long and outplayed many of my opponents throughout the day. I have to note that I had my fair share of luck, but unfortunately that luck ended in the quarters.

What I would change:
Tangle Wire was great, especially in a meta full of aggro and random decks such as my own. Chalice would also have been great but we only have 60 slots. Magus was mediocre for me throughout the day and it's possible that replacing him Chalice and then reworking the manabase to fit in Factories would be better.
I'm not sure if omitting Mana Vault was right or not, I never really have mana issues, so I think the extra spell was probably better.
I was hoping for Karn to block some Inkwells but it turns out that most people chose to play Colossus over Inkwell after all and I actually think they are right about that choice. That said, Karn is awesome, definately play 2!

The sideboard kind of sucked.
Flametongue Kavu was never really relevant. The point is and I kind of expected this: when you have mana against aggressive decks you are going to win anyway. 3R is hard to reach against aggro and when you do you might as well cast Trisks, Solemens, Welders, Swords, Wires and Karns and beat them anyway. Focus should be more on getting more mana against Fish and less on removing annoying creatures. That means, we must be able to beat Null Rod so probably artifact destruction is our best bet here. Maybe Razormane Masticore can be decent as well.

I never saw the Boil so I don't know if it was any good. People laughed at me for playing Boil, but I really don't care. I did side in in a couple of times though.

REB's were dead sometimes and were decent other times. I was never truly impressed by REB but it wasn't awful either.

Heretic is good, he's here to stay. He's very solid against Shop (though I didn't see it). He's solid against Fish (takes care of Null Rod and maybe Moxen, Factories or Jittes).

Spheres were solid. They are needed against Storm.

Never needed the Tormod's Crypts. The Relic was pretty good as I can side it in against decks with Welder or Storm decks and when I don't need the GY removal I can just cycle it. I'm not sure we want more than one though as they are kind of clunky in multiples and Tormod's Crypt is leagues better against Ichorid, though that MU is so incredibly favored I'm not even sure we need a board against them.

I'm going to test out Greater Gargadon and see if it's any good against aggressive decks as in that case I might put them in the sideboard to improve my Oath matchup. Otherwise I'm going to put in some Caps. But I'm still not convinced if the Caps are that good, imagine I would have boarded them in against Martijn playing TPS g1, I would focus all my resources activating the Cap and then I would probably get crushed by his Goyfs as he can win the attrition war after that. In any case we just absolutely need to have a plan against Oath and we want a plan against them that also helps to improve other matchups. In any case, this tournament leaves me with plenty to chew on and I next time my deck will be even better! So be prepared Dutch Vintage players out there .

Also, I saw the lists Smmenen typed up for Waterbury and WOW everyone is playing Tez in the US. I can definately understand you guys want Null Rod maindeck. In Holland however, the metagame is much more diverse, we have Oath, Tez, TPS, Fish, Shop, Christmas Beatings, Remora and more aggro decks running around. Null Rod sucks against a whole lot of decks so I don't really want Null Rod in this metagame.

Anyway, this deck is here to stay. I made 2 consecutive T8's with it finishing second with 40+ people and now 8th (stupid tiebreakers!) with 60 people. Duncan finished 2nd with this deck in the GP side event in Chicago proving that Dutch people know how to playt his game, so yeah I think this deck is pretty much upper tier now. That said, I still have a hard time beating the very good Drain and TPS players. This deck punishes people for even making the slightest mistakes but if your opponent plays near flawless they can navigate through your hate. Note that 95% of the players do not play flawless, so you should have an easy time making T8 with this deck most of the time but it's much harder to win the whole thing when you meet the very strong players in T8. Also, people underestimate the skill it takes to pilot this deck. I came very well prepared to this event and it really showed, while two other red shop players who didn't nearly have the experience I do with the deck, failed to make T8. I just wanted to get this off my chest as some people told me it didn't take any skill to pilot the deck at the tournament and I felt kind of insulted by those remarks.

Boy this has turned out much longer than I had envisioned but I hope this post was worth all the effort!

Feedback and I told you so's are appreciated!
- Guus de Waard aka Mantis.

[Miaou]

Tangle Wire was great, especially in a meta full of aggro and random decks such as my own. Chalice would also have been great but we only have 60 slots. Magus was mediocre for me throughout the day and it's possible that replacing him Chalice and then reworking the manabase to fit in Factories would be better.

Looking at your list, here is what I would do (trying to squeeze in Chalice and replace Magus)
-2 Gorilla Shaman (you still have Karn)
-2 Sword of Fire and Ice (looking at your report, these didn't seem to be all that stellar)
-4 Magus of the Moon

+4 Chalice of the Void
+4 Juggernaut / Gathan Raiders

My reasoning is that huge beaters is a good thing, and with this set up, you will have 10 (4 Trisk, 4 Jugg, 2 Karn). You also gain some nice disruption which is usefull in nearly all match ups (TPS @ 0 or 1, Oath @ 2, Control @ 2 or 3, Random aggro @ 2, etc.)

However I believe that at least 3 Magus of the Moon need to be in the SB for Dredge, Oath, Fish, ... They are a real beating in these matchups.
If you take out the Magus, then you could possibly cut 2 Ancient Tomb for 2 Mishra's Factories. I have been testing the factories and have been quite impressed by them.

Let me know what you think of these suggestions
And congrats on the finish!

[zeus-online]

A shame you're not playing green, i think carpet of flowers could be awesome against  {U}X Aggro-Control...Although if there's alot of other non- aggro-control decks, then it's probably not very good. Green obv. also allows for Tarmogoyf.

/Zeus

Pre-Edit:
This might sound stupid...but green allows for Wall of roots aswell, which both gives mana and blocks just about any creature an aggro-control deck could play (Except for stuff like sea drake, serendib efreet, trygon predator...). Just an idea.

[Mantis]

@zeus: Thanks for the suggestion, I have given thought to splash Green but it would be for Ancient Grudge and Choke I think. I don't have much problems with aggro control decks actually, although they can beat us if they get out Null Rod paired with Goyf/Confidant. The problem with a splash will be Solemn. You will want to run at least 2 Mountains and if you splash Green you would also want to make room for a Forest. This just nukes your manabase, how awful would it be to have Forest in play and be stuck with a Welder in hand? The same goes for having Choke in hand and 2 basic Mountains on board.

@Miaou: In testing I never missed Chalice of the Void all that much. I am actually quite glad I got rid of it as usually it just sits there at 0, gets bounced and opponent lays down his artifact acceleration anyway. I also don't really like Juggernaut. I actually switched the 4 Magus slots for 1 Mana Vault, 2 Sphere of Resistance and an extra Karn. The problem with this deck is that it's not very clear which direction is the best. At the same tournament a guy that packed Juggernauts in the maindeck T8-ed as well, so I don't think there's one universal truth. With 3 Karns, 2 Swords and 4 Triskelions all I need is 1 of these threats and I usually rid that home with the help of my disruption and recurring it with Welder. Winning the game when we are ahead seems not to be the problem really. Games such as the one I played against Duncan and Steffen are ones where you are never really in the game at all, they have sick openings and you just lose, Juggernaut or not, Karn or not. Therefore I'd prefer creatures that push me ahead when I am behind in terms of board and cardadvantage such as Karn and Triskelion rather than dealclosers such as Juggernaut and Gathan Raiders. I wouldn't cut Gorilla Shaman as he eats Key/Vault which is huge. Since I don't have Chalice I really love having 5 hate cards for artifact mana anyway. Every time I cut Sword I regret it, the card looks like the weakest link but pulls out so many games.

Still, I might be totally off cutting the Magus of the Moon, it's indeed good against some matchups. That said, Dredge and Fish are still good matchup without Magus and Oath is still a very bad matchup even with Magus in the deck. They might be sideboard material however, I'm going to think about it.

I hear everyone is impressed with Factory. I always liked Ancient Tomb a lot so I'm reluctant to cut them, especially now that I run 2 Sphere of Resistance and an extra Karn that up the manacurve. That said, I should definately give them some thorough testing sometime.

[zeus-online]

It just sounded as though you where  saying that you needed some new tech against aggro-control Although i must admit that it seems rather doubtfull that a deck such as this should struggle too much against aggro-control decks.

/Zeus

[sorcutt]

+4 Chalice of the Void
+4 Juggernaut / Gathan Raiders

There's no point in running both Chalice and Gathan Raiders.  If you have a Chalice @ 0 on the board (which is strong if you're on the play), Raiders is countered if you play it as a morph creature.  It's cc=0 so as a morph Chalice would trigger and counter it.  That's my understanding of the interaction between the two cards.  Also, I run a build very similar to yespuhyren’s, and I’ve found Raiders to be very underwhelming.  Sometimes it’s hard to dump your hand to get Hellbent if you’re short on mana and stuck with high cc stuff in your hand.  I’m currently testing another red creature to fill the beater spot.  I’ll post details if it’s successful. 

@ Mantis - I've tried to mix the mana base up to include 2 colors R/G, R/B, or R/W.  Every time I've done so the deck seemed to lack focus.  Consistency seems to me more important than the prospect of having the wrong color land or getting a non-basic wasted. 

[the boogie man]

is jens all that good anymore? I know he is good with a welder, but he is awful slow. and plus, g/r has its own fetchland, so you shouldn't really have to worry about the basics a ton. The mana base could look like this:

3 wooded foothills
3 taiga
2 mountain
1 forest
1 academy
4 shop
5 waste
8 crypt lotus sol moxen

And I wouldn't worry a whole lot about waste, you still have a good amount of basics and usually they will have better things to aim at.

and taking out a trike, a karn (which I think you run 1 too many of), and the swords will allow you to run 4 goyf, an awsome threat that is not subject to artifact hate. it also gives you something cheap to lay out when a null rod lands against you. opposing goyfs are bigger than trike, and they can block karn with a confidant if need be. I don't think it is true anymore that against null rod decks a 4/4 alone will do the job.

[Mantis]

I really don't see the problem with Solemn. He provides what the deck needs, cardadvantage, beater, manafixing all for a reasonable price of tapping 2 lands.

How does a splash help against a deck with Stifle, Wasteland and Null Rod? It seems that you are just walking right into their disruption and actually weaken the deck against Fish.

Tarmogoyf is horrible in this deck. You completely rely on your opponent to make your Goyf big, so if your opponent declines you are stuck with a 0/1 Tarmogoyf. Now that's a great way to punish slow draws on the opposing side... Even if it all works out Goyf will be 4/5 max, so that doesn't beat a Juggernaut, Triskelion or Gathan Raiders. Upping the number of colored cards and especially splashes requires a very good reason, Goyf is not a good reason.

[Pitlord]

Tarmogoyf is horrible in this deck. You completely rely on your opponent to make your Goyf big, so if your opponent declines you are stuck with a 0/1 Tarmogoyf. Now that's a great way to punish slow draws on the opposing side... Even if it all works out Goyf will be 4/5 max, so that doesn't beat a Juggernaut, Triskelion or Gathan Raiders. Upping the number of colored cards and especially splashes requires a very good reason, Goyf is not a good reason.

Though I generally agree that splashing green isn't worth it for this deck, I must contest the statement about Goyf. After playing quite a bit with a 5-color shop aggro build featuring Goyf, I can think of exactly 1 turn where I had a 0/1 Tarmogoyf. If they aren't putting cards into their graveyard that means they aren't casting anything, which seems fine for you. Though the splash probably isn't worth it here, tarmogoyf isn't bad in some shop aggro builds and could merit testing if you were to splash. He is basically a 2/3 at worst, which isn't great admittedly. What makes him playable though is the fact that he does only cost 2, for those hands where you may be hurting from your own spheres or just fail to draw a shop, or a non-shop source in the case of comparing him to Gathan raiders.

[sorcutt]

I had moderate success with Taureen Mauler in my mono-red Null Rod build. 

 
Shapeshifter

Changeling (all creature types)
Whenever an opponent plays a spell you may put a +1/+1 on T.M.

2/2

He ended up being better than Gathan Raiders in some situations but worse in others.  He allows you to keep cards in your hand and he's even pumpable by Mishra's Factory, which is randomly handy.  I killed many opponents' creatures because they forgot about the changeling rule.  He ends up being a house in some games but really weak in games where an opponent has a very reactive and not proactive deck.

[Mantis]

Sorcutt: care to share the list you are currently running? Im both curious and it helps me understand the Mauler.

I had the crazy idea of testing out 1 or 2 Platinum Angel. 7 mana is a lot, maybe too much but shes both fat and her ability is actually very disruptive as you force your opponent to both find the win con and an answer to Platz through your disruption. Platz does have someajor issues, namely that she gets hit by our archenemy; Rebuild and also that the Vault/Key combo just does not care. So I probably summed up why its garbage already but she looks great against Fish, Ichorid and provides an out to Oath. She can also help you stabilize when you are behind by buying time. If Vault/Key is like >30% of the meta shes probablu useless tho.

[zabuza]

Hi everybody,

First of all sorry for my English because i´m Spanish.

I´m testing a deck closer at yours. The deck will be played in a non proxy tournament and i haven´t workshops so i´ve had to use city of traitors and ancient tomb as colorless mana-sources. I´ve tested lot of cards in the deck (painters, juggies, ...) and finally i´ve decided not to play them.

The deck has lot of hate (4magus of the moon, 2 blood moon and 4 null rod) to destroy lot of strategies and uses gathan riders to put a fast clock. I´m playiing 3 mox monkey and 4 welders to complement it.

I tested mauler but results were very strange. If you can play it on first or second turn of the game it will be a monster and in this scenario is a very powerful card. The only problem is that is cost 2R so in the begining of the match is easy to daze it. The othr problem it has is that in middle late game is a very bad draw because youll have a 2/2 bear for 2R. It hasn´t any type of evasion so i´ve decided to remove completely them from the deck.

I´m trying lot of cards to make the deck as good as it can be and in this moment there are some cards i´m not sure about.

I´m trying figure of destiny because we can use the unsused R at the end of turn to make a monster on the table. They are not bad so probably the will remain on the deck.

Because i´m not playing triskelion (i´m playing rods over them) i´m thinking what can i play to kill creatures. In my deck is easy to get hellbent (and i like to get it because raiders become a 4 turn clock) so i´m trying lightning axe. It´s a very very very bada card but it had sinergy with raiders and welder (discard a robot with axe, kill opponent´s tarmogoyf, use welder to change mox with robot) is a very good situation. The only problem is that axes are only useful agaisnt fishes and decks with creatures. I´m not very sold of the quantity of this card will be neccesary to play.

I´m looking for a robot that could be used to kill the tier1 decks and that will be played via welder from the grave or from hand (cheap?). Paltinum angel doesn´t solve any problem, leviathan is blue (so we only can play it from the grave) and so.     

Now in the main i´m playiing a set of REB because they solves the problem of rebuild, hurkills and so. In testing they are being very useful but several decks like ichorid doesn´t care about it.

What do you think guys about alll of this.

[Mantis]

This thread is about a deck that sports 4 Workshop, period. I have never tested a version without Workshop and quite frankly never will, so I can't say much about it. I guess for advice it's wise to open a thread in the Improvement Forum. I would definately reply if you opened up a thread there.

As for a robot that solves your issue with Leviathan, try Karn, Silver Golem. He block Leviathan all day long.
I'm also not sure why you would try to play an artifact deck without Workshops, if you own the Moxen why not play something like GWSx or Fish which both don't require Bazaar, Drain, Shop or Grim Tutors and are both very solid decks.

EDIT: Also, I might have come over as somewhat of a douchebag in this post, don't mean to be this way. I sent zabuza a PM to clear things up.

[zabuza]

Well, i´ve always playing WU fish in T1 but now i want to test something new and because i´ve always loved blood moon, magus and so i´ve decided to test a deck with them. Red provides me lot of hate to overwhelm tier1 decks so i´ve designed a deck that is similar from yours but focusing more in red cards than in artifact cards so it´s possible playing it without workshops because there aren´t lot of artifacts i want to play. Welder (+ mox monkey) provides me a way to deal with artifacts.

In the deck the only artifacts i´m playing are rods, mox ruby, lotus and crypt. I´m thinking to use chrome mox too to have artifacts to trade with and help me to get hellbent fastly.

I would open a new thread but first of that i would like to play the deck in a real tournament to prove is good or not. The only testing i´ve done is by MWS and is not conclusive.

When i´ve open a thread please feel free to give any ideas you´ll have about the deck but for now if anybody want to help me in the design please send me a message or something like that.

Thanks and sorry.

[the boogie man]

instead of the axe, why not play razormane masticore? he's weldable and does what you want to creatures, as well as working under rod and enabling  hellbent.